Bf-110 Dive Behavior

[mattag08]

I searched the forums (with the admittedly poor search function), but couldn't find anything on this topic.

Has anyone noticed the extreme buffeting and yawing action that occurs when you pass 500 km/h in the Bf-110? Is this modeled correctly? It seems that compressibility wouldn't begin to affect it until much higher speeds and especially not to the degree currently modeled. 500 km/h would've been a fairly normal speed for the 110 to achieve in a dive I would think, but if it is modeled true to life then no real 110 pilot would ever enter a significantly nose down dive...

[robtek]

That is a known fault in the FM, along with the unreachable service-ceiling of all planes.
Hopefully the next patch will fix that.

[mattag08]

Good to know. Other than that one characteristic, I like flying the 110. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

[Danelov]

The curious things of this Sim. The Spitfire MK I, the symbol and the emblematic plane of the Battle of Britain and in the game because his horribilis FM is one of the less utilised planes by the players. For the Bf 110 one of the his main strong points as fighter(and they were so few)historical, was his capacity to dive with good speed , in the hit and run tactics. And in the game also, this capacity, is inexistent. Together with many other things a very intensiv revision of the FM is necessery to make this Sim serious.Less "cosmetics" like uniforme choice for the pilots and a lot more work in the basic fundamentals. We dont build a house starting by the ceiling.

[TomcatViP]

It wld be ill advised to reproduce the IL2 error and correct the FM to match that of the SPit we hve for now.

If the 110 is so slow in hit&run it might be more linked to the Gargantuan Spit's appetite for E. Do that against a Hurri and it works just fine.

[JG52Karaya]

The ridiculously low dive limit of the Bf110 is due to the devs using the old IL-2 FMs on all aircraft, that means the 110C will break up at exactly 600km/h (should be at least 100km/h higher).

[Redroach]

Good to know. Other than that one characteristic, I like flying the 110. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

side question: Did you have success with opening the canopy and closing it again? Or is this bug still there as well?

[Zorin]

Maximum permissible speed was 650km/h as stated by the official flight manual, which of course includes dive situations.

[robtek]

How often will this old news be posted again?

Yes, it is wrong!

Yes, the devs know about it!

Yes, it will be fixed!

So, satisfied?

[Zorin]

Would that mean it would gain uncontrollable shaking 150kph earlier?

Well, I'd imaging that it would depend on the state of the dive and how it is executed. Though admittedly 500km/h is a bit early for any violent influences to take effect.

[JG52Karaya]

Maximum permissible speed was 650km/h as stated by the official flight manual, which of course includes dive situations.

That is the maximum safe diving limit, which normally has more or less of a threshold to it, doesnt mean that if you go 651km/h your aircraft would vapourize as in IL-2/CoD. I think we can safely assume another 50km/h on top of that speed before any critical structural damage would occur.

And while on topic: If we go by maximum safe diving speeds then all aircraft in IL-2/CoD are overmodelled

[TomcatViP]

That is the maximum safe diving limit, which normally has more or less of a threshold to it, doesnt mean that if you go 651km/h your aircraft would vapourize as in IL-2/CoD. I think we can safely assume another 50km/h on top of that speed before any critical structural damage would occur.

And while on topic: If we go by maximum safe diving speeds then all aircraft in IL-2/CoD are overmodelled

Actually your VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) rely also on the air condition like outside pressure or turbulences. The more you get the less your VNE will be.

Have a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jklVp4Rcdc8 and switch to 7min. It explains how to dive a P47. Look how VNE decrease with alt.

[Redroach]

okay okay, you're all very wise and informed and such, but the thing is: The Bf110 starts shaking badly when exceeding 500kph...

[JG52Karaya]

okay okay, you're all very wise and informed and such, but the thing is: The Bf110 starts shaking badly when exceeding 500kph...

Which is due to the aircraft's max. dive speed being set too low (600km/h right now) and the sim engine starts this effect about 100km/h before the actual break up speed.

I think we already agreed that it is too low, so...?

[robtek]

No shaking should occur before vne!!

Vne is when the plane is becoming uncontrollable and/or starts loosing structural integrity.

Afaik vne for the earlier P-38 models, i. e., where when they lost elevator authority, not structural integrity, and varied with the altitude.

[Sternjaeger II]

No shaking should occur before vne!!

Vne is when the plane is becoming uncontrollable and/or starts loosing structural integrity.

Afaik vne for the earlier P-38 models, i. e., where when they lost elevator authority, not structural integrity, and varied with the altitude.

VNE is the "never exceed speed" an indicative airspeed value which in theory is set a bit before the speed when the first signs of flutter would occur, but some constructors set it at the first signs of flutter. Reaching the VNE is easier when diving, because the increase of air density with the diving attitude have a surprising airspeed acceleration effect. You can have flutter before reaching VNE, it depends on many factors but it was a common occurrence, and it's flutter that triggers the loss of structural integrity.

The ingame 110 behaviour is correct, it's the speed at which flutter triggers that is wrong.

[robtek]

Thats what i said, The Vne for the 110c is 650 km/h IAS, so when i fly in a shallow dive the flutter should start around 650 km/h on the "Fahrtmesser".
That might differ in a steep dive, there, as the indicator might lag behind, the flutter could start before 650 km/h are indicated.

[Sternjaeger II]

mind you, reaching the VNE doesn't necessarily mean that there would be flutter effects. You might have loss of control authority before (as you mentioned in the P-38 ).