IL2 and Sound Modding

[Golden_Eagle_FM]

There is a debate ongoing on various forum about the sound modding that can be downloaded.

Sure we can question the legality of the issue. Does it modify the source code? Is it some form of hacking? What about copyrights? etc. etc.

But let's face it. This improvement has been requested since ages and has been one of the weak points repeated over and over. For a flight simulation program, the engine, and other aircraft systems as well as the guns sound are a critical immersion factor.

I do not understand why Oleg has not done it. It was inevitable that over time it would have been done, even more when SOW takes so much time to come out. History shows that no software can be undefinitively protected against any form of cracking/hacking/modding call it whatever you want.

The only way to avoid it is to act before it happens. I am even sure that if this improvement with some others like maps and additional objects would have been sold as an add-on package it would have sold well. I speak for myself but after five years of having bought all the IL2 products I would have not hesitated to pay for such an "Immersion improvement package".

From my point of view Oleg missed the timing. When the team was still available to work on the various improvement like 1946 or even the previous patches this effort would have been doable. Now that all the team is full steam on SOW it is clearly too late.

The work that has been done by as I understand a team of modders, in any case does not spoil the game but gives it some fresh air and longer lifetime. If Oleg has not enough resources available why not team with them, help them to make it perfect along the Oleg Maddox top quality criteria.

For sure that SOW-BOB will have these improvements but SOW will first concentrate on the BOB. This means that for those who fight on the Pacific they will still have IL2 as the only possible choice for some time to come until a new version of it is delivered. The sound improvements are then welcomed until the full range of possibilities that today exist in IL2 are provided and even supassed by SOW.

So by any means SOW-BOB will not kill IL2. Both games will continue and as such IL2 should still be supported from some time to come.

Gold


My rig:
QX6700 Quad Core Extreme
Asus Commando Board
4 GB DDR2
Asus GeForce 8800 Ultra
Samsung 24" display - 1920X1200
Sound Board Creative X-FI
CH products Throttle and Stick
Track IR Pro

[123-Wulf-123]

So it was all Olegs fault that illegal HACKERS hacked HIS code, broke the EULA and then obviously forced people to download this illegal HACK and ILLEGALY install it on their systems :roll: ......that explains everything :roll: :evil:


IBTL :roll:

[Golden_Eagle_FM]

It seems to me your conclusion is a little short. You miss the point.

[csThor]

What you obviously are unable to understand that Il-2 and SoW:BoB are not mere pasttimes the guys at Maddox Games do in their freetime because they don't have anything better to do. These are commercial products which are by default a collection of trade-offs between commercially viable, financially acceptable and eligible from a gamer's POV. They have to earn money - they have a contract with Ubisoft and 1C to produce entertainment software which can be sold at a profit and so these two entities are calling the shots. And obviously the sounds fell through the priority grid for reasons none of us know.

Blaming the existance of the hack on Oleg is IMO simply a lame and transparent attempt at justifying the actions its makers. You don't like Maddox Games's development priorities? Tough, deal with it. All you can do is voting with your wallet but stop trying top justify some goon who needed the five minutes of internet glory by cracking files he shouldn't have poked his nose into. Nuff said .. :roll:

PS: And to suggest Maddox Games should support the hackers. Ridiculous, ludicrous and completely out of touch with reality. If I were a doc I'd prescribe a dose of reality. :roll: http://209.85.48.10/2866/23/emo/[face_doh].gif

[Chivas]

Its seems you missed the point Gold. Its not about the sound. Its about hacking the code that can also modify the FM. The sound mod may give a few people great enjoyment, but can effectively kill most of the On-line componant.

I'm not even sure the sound mod is any good. Some people say its great others not so great. I know sounds in other sims get the thumbs up but alot of these sounds are unrealistic, some even laughable.

[Chivas]

Also the IC company may have lost considerable revenue do to this hack. They may be unable to sell the rights to third parties to provide add-ons which may have included new sounds.

[Golden_Eagle_FM]

Chivas, I must admit I have no idea about the online issues. The fact is that I never played online. I am more interested in building and flying scenarios I create from WWII events.

csThor, By the way I already voted with my wallet. I paid and have all original the original disks. Some were bought in multiple copies of the software that I gave to friends as gifts or kept as backup in case. So I did my very fair part of supporting Oleg excellent product and since the many years on other forums had the occasion to praise him and his work. It does not mean that all is perfect though like the sound issue.

csThor you insists I should have a dose of reality.
Ok. Here is the reality: It is unevitable that the soft would be one day hacked. It is a very successfull product and has been around for years with unabated success. It was a target. I am very realistic saying that it is only a matter of time. One way to fight this is to be ahead of the hackers. I understand it is a costly issue and time consuming and difficult to do in a competitive world, but it is so.

The solution that is to make the software extremely well protected has also often backfired and generally put the paying customer in a difficult position. It happened to me with the PE-2 online acquisition I made with the starforce protection system. PE-2 worked fine only once I bought 1946 and did a full reinstall from scratch and on a new rig.

Banks very often hire the hackers to make better software and more robust software. You know what they say: "if you can't beat them join them".

So my proposal was that if there are talented guys out there then why not use them. I know it seems naive, but only up to a point.

Gold

[SG1_Gunkan]

Hacking IL2 is a reality, but sorry, we don't buy it. Perhaps without Oleg alive and here. But he is with the community and we are with him. Hackers go home!

[Beowulf]

Here's the problem,

They are Hackers not MODDERS plain and simple I do not care what the perceived intent was. That have destroyed the game. The 6DOF is total rank amateur BS, Making things flyable is messing with FM's.

Now since they could not make the Avenger flyable they are going to try to crack the FM for it and change it's center of balance. So there you have it. It will not be long before the babies and teenie bobbers or the adults who have no skills and can only win by cheating will come up with God weapons that blow you away in one shot. Aim bots. Speed Hacks(which =FB= has been using for ages.)

It's a sad, sad day. I do not care that you fly off line or on. the offline tools are being used in online servers and as such, thats the crime.Heck the EULA abusers are all in AAA server on hyperlobby. Track down the IP's and start the legal process. Shut the AAA site down and ban them all.

Locks only keep honest people honest, scum like these hackers will always find a way to ruin every honest simmers fun just to prove that we should fly it their way.

losers and all who support them should be locked away in the Gulag!!!

PFTTT!

[SlipBall]

The way I see it, they had no right to hack the code, and most of the hack mods are very low grade, that is, if you read the posts at their hang out.....I think that they did alot of damage, and most likely delayed the release of bob. I think the sound mod might have been adopted by Oleg, if they would have approched him with it, possibly.....they ( the hacks) have ruined on-line play, or at the very least, have made people uncomfortable, or un-easy with on-line play

[zapatista]

The work that has been done by as I understand a team of modders, in any case does not spoil the game but gives it some fresh air and longer lifetime. If Oleg has not enough resources available why not team with them, help them to make it perfect along the Oleg Maddox top quality criteria.

you've missed the point yourself as to why a hack like that is a major problem for the il2 community. nobody really cares if somebody uses different sound files for a few aircraft engine noises, and i suspect that for all oleg cares you could choose to replace the sounds of aircraft engines with the sounds of barking dogs or wailing banshees..

the real problem is that a lot of other parts of the il2 code have also been altered or unlocked at the same time, and you have now no way of knowing how fair or unfair online flying is when you join a server.

individual aircraft characteristics (speed, turn rate, weapons load, flight behavior) have been hacked, so you can now have yak's that fly at the speed of a rocket plane, take off like a harrier, and turn in mid air like a hurricane at stall speed, and all this while carrying unlimited ammo on a server that doesnt allow it (youtube video's have already been posted which show that exact type of problem occurring) .

the hack has also delayed the release of the 4.09 patch, and important bug fixes we have been asking for previously will not be addressed now because there is no time left. BoB will also incur some delay because the whole file protection system has the be altered and made safer.

[Dowly]

I agree with the original poster that the sounds are maybe the weakest part of IL2, the different engines sound too much the same. I also use the 'mod' to my own enjoyment, not to gain high ground above ppl, but just for the sake of having more real sounding engines.

But I also agree that the unlocking of the IL2 files comes with sour grapes too, FM cheating. And of course, it's illegal.

Oh well, let's hope Oleg & bunch get the 4.09 out with a new kind of protection so we can end all these debates about the hacks. :wink:

[96th_Nightshifter]

I'm hoping with 4.09 the code will have changed enough for the hackers to not want to bother cracking it again and simply leave them be with 4.08.

Basically we will have 4.08 "mod" servers and the newly patched 4.09 servers will be "Mod free", gives us all the best of both worlds really.
The mod is out there so nothing we can do about it now, once 4.09 is out they can mod 4.08 till there hearts are content and hopefully leave 4.09 alone, all we need now is a bit of a gentleman's agreement with the people over at the place that will not be mentioned but supplies said "mod" that they will work on 4.08 only, for the good of the online community and leave 4.09 alone.

[123-Wulf-123]

Isn't going to happen..Oleg himself says that there is little they can do about the illegal HACK other than to give a damn big THANK YOU to the morons that did it and those that support it :evil:

[stalkervision]

Oleg can't afford to support this game forever. All software products end up this way if one doesn't know. Even Microsoft software. Games are much worse. Il-2 had it's run and it was a long one by any standard. Oleg is devoting his energies now to the one series we want so will you all give this hack stuff a rest. If there is a community of people out there willing to devote there own free time,monies and energy into supporting the product I say fine. It only benfits games sales of il-2 that give maddox even more money to put into newer and far better projects.

The End

[Golden_Eagle_FM]

I would agree with you Stalkervision but up to a point. There is still a prerequisite:

Oleg or whatever company who has the rights of the software should at least take a formal position by saying that the software is not any more supported, that there will be no more patches and that it is allowed for those who are willing to spend effort to improve the game like: sounds, new objects, new maps or new flyble aircrafts or making some aircraft systems work or behave correctly, iron bugs etc. All these "improvements" being non supported and at the entire risk of those who would install them.

Without this kind of statement any modification of the core engine (i understand that the sound mods imply this is what has been done) is pure hacking and pure stealing of rights. And there is no obligation for those detaining the rights to IL-2 to make such a statement. It is a pure economical/marketing decision.

From the marketing point of view, once SOB is out it would make some sense to open some functionality as long as the addendums or mods are to be added to a legitimate acquisition of the IL2 game. This will probably will benefit Oleg as IL2 copies of the game will continue to be sold (at a lower price for sure).

If we look at the example of the airplane skins. That issue was never regarded as hacking because it was an opening well planned and structured from the beginning to allow for such improvements. It is unfortunate that the sounds and objects were not also designed this way.

What has made this game so longlasting?

At the base is the excellence of the product and the unique immersivity as well as the continous support and improvements from Oleg. Then come two other factors:
1) The online gaming capability. I am not a specialist on this functionality though.
2) The possibility that has been given to all of us through the FMB (that could also be much improved) and Skins to create our own scenarios. On this issue I am an expert. Like the addition of skins, sounds and objects should also have been part of items allowed for the simmers to play with. Once you finished the campaigns it is the only way to go on, and possibilities become infinite.

So let's see how things will evolve in future, but believe me we are all supporters of Oleg, even if I really miss him. One small topic from him, here and there should really not be an issue during a full days work. It takes a minute and would please so much all of his supporters.
I really miss the times when after the first IL2 release when Oleg was more present and answered some of our remarks.

Gold

[Beowulf]

4.09 is in the works. Oleg hasn't abandoned this series, yet. SOW is still vaporware IMHO and may never happen!!!

Even the mere discussion of this stuff here is supporting the Hackers and making their Napoleon complexes grow.

Stop the madness, Stop talking about the Hacks and let 1C and Maddox do what they need do to put the AAA site out of commission.

The community ought to start a global list of anyone flying in the AAA server and post up the thread for all to know who supports hackers. If your a Offline pilot what will it matter since it is the Online that has the chance of being compromised...

[Insuber]

4.09 is in the works. Oleg hasn't abandoned this series, yet. SOW is still vaporware IMHO and may never happen!!!

Even the mere discussion of this stuff here is supporting the Hackers and making their Napoleon complexes grow.

Stop the madness, Stop talking about the Hacks and let 1C and Maddox do what they need do to put the AAA site out of commission.

The community ought to start a global list of anyone flying in the AAA server and post up the thread for all to know who supports hackers. If your a Offline pilot what will it matter since it is the Online that has the chance of being compromised...


Beowulf,

Your proposal sounds vastly exhaggerated. I'm an online pilot and I don't feel threatened at all neither by modders nor by people flying on AAA. Let proscription lists where they do belong .... the sewers of humanity.

Regards,
Insuber

[stalkervision]

Oleg has said he is dropping the game. He just has one minor patch in the works and it is by-by for him. The only people that are getting their panties in a knot are the on-line dweebs that cry like little girls whenever they get shot down. Then they call...CHEAT!! :x

[Pike]

Dear All,
Quite honestly I don't have an opinion about hackers. All I can say is as I see it, in England a man's home is his castle. When you buy something it is yours to do with what you like. I cannot personally get used to the idea that you buy something that is actually still not yours even after you pay good money for it. Once you have paid for it the makers have their money and let's face it they even set the price for it.
With regard to the arguement about 'cheaters', if people know each other then why should they cheat?
Best regards,
SLP

[Chivas]

Pike

With all due respect. You pay a few bucks for software that has taken countless manhours to produce and develop and you actually believe its yours to do whatever you like. Maybe in your own home, were nobody knows or cares, but the problem here is people are taking out on the web, etc.

[ElAurens]

The folks who did this and the one's who use it should be quashed with every legal means possible.

End of story.

[carguy_]

Oleg has said he is dropping the game.

Quote and the source please.


He just has one minor patch in the works and it is by-by for him.

The fact has no influence on the law whatsoever.Funny how you people don`t like others calling it by name: crime.



The only people that are getting their panties in a knot are the on-line dweebs that cry like little girls whenever they get shot down.

A bit more complicated I`m afraid.The issue is not online/offline related. It is EULA/intellectual law related.
Anyone saying that Oleg Maddox doesn`t care about his intellectual laws being broken is either stupid or has an interest in saying so.


Then they call...CHEAT!! :x

Nice thing about trying to picture those respecting Oleg as people with psychical equilibrium problems.
It`s quite obvious that folks blaming Oleg for the whole thing let alone ingoring his personal laws need some help.

[carguy_]

Dear All,
Quite honestly I don't have an opinion about hackers. All I can say is as I see it, in England a man's home is his castle. When you buy something it is yours to do with what you like. I cannot personally get used to the idea that you buy something that is actually still not yours even after you pay good money for it. Once you have paid for it the makers have their money and let's face it they even set the price for it.
With regard to the arguement about 'cheaters', if people know each other
SLP

Everyone`s freedom goes as long way as it does not offend anyone else`s freedom.

A standard rule for every of today`s civilized society.

[Robert]

Dear All,
Quite honestly I don't have an opinion about hackers. All I can say is as I see it, in England a man's home is his castle. When you buy something it is yours to do with what you like. I cannot personally get used to the idea that you buy something that is actually still not yours even after you pay good money for it. Once you have paid for it the makers have their money and let's face it they even set the price for it.
With regard to the arguement about 'cheaters', if people know each other then why should they cheat?
Best regards,
SLP


The weak link in your analogy is that you didn't hack a file for your own personal use. If it was just that there'd be no problem. It wouldn't possibly cause problems on line.... It wouldn't cause a schism in the community. Your house would stand fine.

Someone else hacked the files and supplied the means to that hack for other players, thus affecting more than the 'house' you bought. It's caused a mentality and aura of suspicion. it showcases arrogance by the hackers blaming Oleg. AND if memory serves me Oleg said there would be possible 3rd pparty measures for the fututre of IL2. (Not positive) So it potentially affected his income.....


I have no personal opinion on any one who uses it, but I wish the persons who hacked the game would be honest and just say they hacked the game because they wanted to, NOT because the sounds were bad. That's the excuse. Not the reason

Hell if you're gonna hack.....fix the damn AI.



EDIT: I should say IMPROVE the AI. For a 6 year old game that started with a limited plane set and limited objectives, it's done fairly well. But I'm expecting more.... MUCH more with BoB. TYVM.

[Qwerty]

Rumours of IL2's death are not exaggerated:

Well, guys, I collected most questions in one post in order to let Oleg find them easily without searching through all the posts.

So, the questions:

1) Can we expect some kind of list regarding add-ons and changes implemented in the final 4.09 patch ?

Only when it will be ready. But now I can say that changes thare will be minimal, becasue of absolutely no time.


2) I would like it if Oleg could address the issue of countering the recent spate of hacks for 4.08, and to tell us what plans he has (if any) to once again lock down the game and combat those who would seek to open up the code.

Probably there will be only very minimal changes. See answer above.


5) Can you tell us about any new features in BOB that we don't know about?
So far, we know of dynamic weather and 6DOF...any surprises to come?
What does the future hold for IL2? If you stop further work on it, will the community be able to add content to it in the future?
What are your thoughts on the recently debated sound mod/hack?
I have a seperate post asking about the availability of any IL2 merchandise...is there any available?
If not, are there plans to do some merchandising?

There will be many surprises in time. Like with Il-2 we put in engine many things that will be open later later depending of middle PC power on the market.
With 4.09 we will stop any work with Il-2. Really we did it already... just waiting finalization of new maps.


10) When can we see some SoW updates with vids and sounds?
Will 4.09 have new sounds? Seems it might discourage hacking.

Sounds of BoB only when beta will be on the runway.
No new sounds in 4.09.

Somebody hacked a dead game. Guess it's time to start worrying about something important: Third World debt relief. The AIDS crisis. Famine in Zimbabwe. The suppression of democratic freedoms in Russia. The rise of the Chinese economy. Global Warming. Israel and Hezbollah. Iran/Iraq.

Y'know - really important stuff.

Can you do it, Carguy? Can ya? :lol:

[ElAurens]

So that's it huh?

We just run up the white flag and let the hackers win?

Most of the UBI mods have already surrendered.

Is that all there is to it?

The best piece of software I've ever put on my computer, shredded to bits, online play being jeapardized, poorly done aircraft being pasted up, international laws broken, a very creative group's jobs/livelyhood possibly damaged, and we now say OK?

I'm sorry, but I don't get it, at all.

[JG52Uther]

Rumours of IL2's death are not exaggerated:

Well, guys, I collected most questions in one post in order to let Oleg find them easily without searching through all the posts.

So, the questions:

1) Can we expect some kind of list regarding add-ons and changes implemented in the final 4.09 patch ?

Only when it will be ready. But now I can say that changes thare will be minimal, becasue of absolutely no time.


2) I would like it if Oleg could address the issue of countering the recent spate of hacks for 4.08, and to tell us what plans he has (if any) to once again lock down the game and combat those who would seek to open up the code.

Probably there will be only very minimal changes. See answer above.


5) Can you tell us about any new features in BOB that we don't know about?
So far, we know of dynamic weather and 6DOF...any surprises to come?
What does the future hold for IL2? If you stop further work on it, will the community be able to add content to it in the future?
What are your thoughts on the recently debated sound mod/hack?
I have a seperate post asking about the availability of any IL2 merchandise...is there any available?
If not, are there plans to do some merchandising?

There will be many surprises in time. Like with Il-2 we put in engine many things that will be open later later depending of middle PC power on the market.
With 4.09 we will stop any work with Il-2. Really we did it already... just waiting finalization of new maps.


10) When can we see some SoW updates with vids and sounds?
Will 4.09 have new sounds? Seems it might discourage hacking.

Sounds of BoB only when beta will be on the runway.
No new sounds in 4.09.

Somebody hacked a dead game. Guess it's time to start worrying about something important: Third World debt relief. The AIDS crisis. Famine in Zimbabwe. The suppression of democratic freedoms in Russia. The rise of the Chinese economy. Global Warming. Israel and Hezbollah. Iran/Iraq.

Y'know - really important stuff.

Can you do it, Carguy? Can ya? :lol:

Nothing more to add.

[Pike]

Chivas,
Yes I actually believe it belongs to me just as they take my hard earned money, believe they can do with it what they like...and DO do with it what they like! It would not be nice nor right of me to have the game for 6 months or a year and then say "I want my money back as it still belongs to me and anyway, this game does not do what I want it to." I have nothing against Oleg....he has my full support and has given me a window into the past to enjoy. I would rather pay him directly and let him divide the money up into who gets what portion of it. I have no time for those lawyers who say that you buy something, but its not really yours so you cannot even lend it to someone else without breaking some law or other. I tell you something, I can see the Net going like the stock exchange where everything is based on confidence and there is only paper.....no money.
I think there is a strong cultural divide between Europeans and Americans on this particular issue since in the US most things are rented, not owned.
Best regards,
SLP

[Outlaw]

Chivas,
Yes I actually believe it belongs to me just as they take my hard earned money, believe they can do with it what they like...and DO do with it what they like!...

I think there is a strong cultural divide between Europeans and Americans on this particular issue since in the US most things are rented, not owned.
Best regards,
SLP

The above is total BS. YOU MADE THE AGREEMENT TO BUY A LICENSE, NOT THE CODE. If you didn't like the EULA, then you shouldn't have installed it. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT MOST SOFTWARE IS PURCHASED ON A LICENSE BASIS.

I live in the US, have for my entire 38 years, and aside from a moving truck and movies, I've never rented anything. To say that, "...in the US most things are rented, now owned...", is just ignorant.

--Outlaw.

[Pike]

This is really the point I am making in that the whole idea is to get the consumer just where you want him so that the 'company' dictates the terms to the consumer with no personal componant and he has to agree to something whether he understands it or not and click on a box. It's a bit like the signing a pact with the devil idea. I am not versed in law, I was not aware of the licence business and I would appreciate you not attacking me over whether it is true that things in the US are owned or rented. From my viewpoint I thought that was the case but it may not be.
I takes all sorts to make a world.
Best regards,
SLP.

[Chivas]

Pike

The point is.... the developer will sell you a product for a few bucks that costs them thousands to develope, if you respect their rights to the product. Tell me how these companies who provide a product you enjoy so much can stay in business if the first one they sell, is copied, changed, and sold or given away. With "you sold it to me I can do whatever I like" attitude.
The people who have hacked the game have put in jeopardy the future sales of possible 3rd party developers of the IL-2 series. And possibly put in jeopardy the code security of the SOW series, delaying development, or even making SOW not worth the effort. Extreme...yes but everything has its consequences.

[123-Wulf-123]

"CONSEQUENCES", is a concept that most of the hackers have no comprehension of :roll:

They are part of that "I want it, and I want it NOW!" generation that simply are incapable of understanding how much they have damaged future developments :roll:

[ElAurens]

Indeed Wulf, indeed.

[Robert]

"CONSEQUENCES", is a concept that most of the hackers have no comprehension of :roll:

They are part of that "I want it, and I want it NOW!" generation that simply are incapable of understanding how much they have damaged future developments :roll:

I hear you. I agree too. I've resolved in myself that there's nothing that can really be done. I can complain about it untill the cows come home. It's not going to change anything.

I hate the fact that one needs to take unnecessary precautions to play a fair game. (even if it is JUST the perception of illigitimate playing one must protect themselves from)

I was thinking of a funny thing concerning a picture at the UBI forums. A hacker posted a picture of the Salem Witch trials where they hung/stoned/ burned suspicious individuals. The poster didn't mention the difference between situations as related in 1600s and now. They weren't wiches back then..... but they ARE hackers today. :D :P

[Pike]

Dear Chivas,
No I do not like the idea of someone taking the product and immediately copying it a million times. This would indeed jepardise any future sales of the product and would not give any financial return. But equally I do not like the idea of returns of the likes of Bill Gates who has ridiculous sums of money for his 8hrs a day plus overtime. I suppose it comes down to why hackers do it. In this case I don't think the hackers have done it for financial gain, but for trying to include all those aircraft etc that everyone would like. It is obvious that Oleg and his crew would never be able to accomodate everyone even if he was not involved with SOW BOB. It just shows how popular this game is. But the life of the game will be extended far longer than it otherwise would be, so in a way there are benefits and I'm sure that Oleg had no doubt that eventually it would be hacked by someone.
At the moment there is a British man in the news who is accused of breaching US security and they are trying to extradite him to be tried in the US. He does not deny what he did because he was just curious, but he strongly disputes the amount of damage he did by doing it. To me it smacks of "throw the book at him" attitude of the US defence network so they exaggerate things out of all proportion.
Best regards,
SLP

[Therion_Prime]

Sorry but I don't quite get it.

I thought that with the serverside consistency check set to 2, you cannot play with the sound mod/hack on that server?

So where's the problem? Did I miss something?

[Outlaw]

This is really the point I am making in that the whole idea is to get the consumer just where you want him so that the 'company' dictates the terms to the consumer with no personal componant and he has to agree to something whether he understands it or not and click on a box.

Sorry dude but the EULA cleary states that it's a legal agreement. If you agree to something you don't understand, you are the one at fault. There is no one pointing a gun at your head forcing you to click on that box.



At the moment there is a British man in the news who is accused of breaching US security and they are trying to extradite him to be tried in the US. He does not deny what he did because he was just curious, but he strongly disputes the amount of damage he did by doing it. To me it smacks of "throw the book at him" attitude of the US defence network so they exaggerate things out of all proportion.


If he knew that he was not authorized to do what he was doing then game over. If he actually hacked security measures (as opposed to just finding something unsecured) into sensitive military information then he should be executed. I would expect (and I would demand) no less from the UK or any other country if the roles were reversed.

--Outlaw.

[Pike]

Dear Outlaw,
According to him there were no passwords but I don't know about the authorization bit. Execution is a little excessive and short-sighted don't you think?
Also, that is a bit of a convienience isn't it.......you are at fault if you don't fully understand it.....I suppose you are supposed to pay a fortune to a lawyer to have it explained to you, which if you are not that rich is excessive. I just find it interesting that life is full of situations where "sod you, I'm all right Jack" is embraced and there is little room for understanding or charity and yet we claim belief in fare play and decency. We all know that there are people who will rob and steal out there and many do it legally because of technicalities.
best regards,
SLP

[JG52Uther]

Never quite understood this EULA thing.Is it American?

[carguy_]

Rumours of IL2's death are not exaggerated:Somebody hacked a dead game.


Doesn`t change a thing from the legal point of view.Why don`t you find someone who doesn`t like his car.The steal it, the car ain`t his favorite anyway.Maybe the Police banging at your door will make you understand what are you doing.Wait, there`s very little probability that you will be fined/judged for you actions.That makes you spit in Oleg`s face and laugh.Just because there is little way of making you feel the consequences of your doing.Those two things are quite the same.
It is said that one of humanity`s biggest achievements is making people respect private property.Your symbolic example only shows that carnal law is one of the most useful mechanisms the humanity could develop.

2nd is that things would probably go to the trusted 3rd party as Oleg said.I don`t see you quoting that.I know why.It simply makes your thesis false.3rd party HACKING reduces the above possibility significantly.I`m not exactly surprised you didn`t think about it.You have quite a support.


Guess it's time to start worrying about something important: Third World debt relief. The AIDS crisis. Famine in Zimbabwe. The suppression of democratic freedoms in Russia. The rise of the Chinese economy. Global Warming. Israel and Hezbollah. Iran/Iraq.

Y'know - really important stuff.

Can you do it, Carguy? Can ya? :lol:

Oh thank you very much.

1st off I wouldn`t think you`re able to grade things correctly given your intellect.I`ll just pass on your advice,thank you.

2nd I`m on the boards long enough to take just about any insult with a smile.You want to "piss me off"?Throw some relevant arguments into the topic that I couldn`t break down after 15seconds of thinking how to build a polite reply.
You can howl as long as you want.I`ll give you facts that noone of you mod supporters were ever able to take down.

3rd, we have global institutions taking care of that.I`m doing my part by giving them some money from time to time.

4th, it`s not exactly time consuming/ hard to tell you how limited the likes of you are.

[Chivas]

Hi Pike

There is a huge difference between Bill Gates and the Maddox team. Bill Gates develops a sim and forgets about it. They even dropped the whole series. It was also designed to be modded by the community.
The Maddox team have supported their game since 2001 and had plans to licence the further development of the sim after they moved on to the SOW series. Portions of the sim were never designed or intended to be modded. The monies they make on this sim will make noone a multi-millionaire.
CFS3 needed to be heavily modded to be at all interesting. Even if you added in all the best mods of CFS3, it still wouldn't even come close to the quality of the IL-2 series.

[GF_Mastiff]

Hi Pike

There is a huge difference between Bill Gates and the Maddox team. Bill Gates develops a sim and forgets about it. They even dropped the whole series. It was also designed to be modded by the community.
The Maddox team have supported their game since 2001 and had plans to licence the further development of the sim after they moved on to the SOW series. Portions of the sim were never designed or intended to be modded. The monies they make on this sim will make noone a multi-millionaire.
CFS3 needed to be heavily modded to be at all interesting. Even if you added in all the best mods of CFS3, it still wouldn't even come close to the quality of the IL-2 series.That is very true! 8)

[Outlaw]

Dear Outlaw,
According to him there were no passwords but I don't know about the authorization bit.

If he was aware that he was not authorized then I'd tend to be hard on him, although the lack of active hacking would count for something.



Execution is a little excessive and short-sighted don't you think?

Not for treason and/or spying it's not and, like I said, I would expect the same from any other country.



Also, that is a bit of a convienience isn't it.......you are at fault if you don't fully understand it.....I suppose you are supposed to pay a fortune to a lawyer to have it explained to you, which if you are not that rich is excessive.

There's no fault in not understanding, however, if you AGREE to something you don't understand then you are at fault. Maybe it's just me but the EULA just isn't that hard to understand.

--Outlaw.

[GF_Mastiff]

There's no fault in not understanding, however, if you AGREE to something you don't understand then you are at fault. Maybe it's just me but the EULA just isn't that hard to understand.

--Outlaw.

That can be debatable in a court of law, even though it's spelled out it can be-fought! The judge may find fault of the company for not fully explaining the use of the EULA, depends on the amount of money and time the Company want's to spend on that person.

[stalkervision]

Maybe the "Modded car anology" is a good one here. You buy a car from a car company. Now there is a whole industry built up on modding those original cars isn't there? In fact modders even routinely hack the cars cpu computer software to make performance mods for these very same cars and they all sell these performance mods without any money going back to the original company that I know of. What is the difference here? The EULA? :? No one is selling original Il-2 games here. Hell, they aren't even making any money on the mods even. All I see is a bunch of whiney baby on-liners making all kinds of excuses up why no one should touch their precious game whatsoever because someone may just cheat on them in on-line play. :x Isn't this why software like "punkbusters" was invented? Seems to me it is up to the servers to inforce cheating rules and not on-line whiners... :roll:

To me many the on-line crowd are extreamly selfish. They think not a bit about the non-onliners whatsoever just that someone may cheat on them in some on-line game. IMO these complainers more often then not are substandard pilots. Hell i see these same type of complainers whine about the game's ai cheating them even! :lol:

[stalkervision]

"Darn it the Ai is modding it'self now.! :x " :lol: :lol:

[Pike]

This is getting complicated.......suffice is to say that I personally have no bones about paying for a really exceptional and enjoyable sim like this one. I have every respect for Oleg and the efforts that he puts in for us all and would just love to meet and talk to the man himself. I cannot wait for BoB and have preordered it. I realize that these legalities are really there to stop one company from ripping off another and not so much for the ordinary Punter like you and I. It just annoyes me when I see situations where these laws appear to be a convienience for getting at people who are (or seem to be) just trying to make things better for all of us. Much the same as the situation with Oleg and the Avenger farce....as I saw it there was no need for it and to me they were just being awkward because they could be.
Best regards,
SLP

[stalkervision]

This is getting complicated.......suffice is to say that I personally have no bones about paying for a really exceptional and enjoyable sim like this one. I have every respect for Oleg and the efforts that he puts in for us all and would just love to meet and talk to the man himself. I cannot wait for BoB and have preordered it. I realize that these legalities are really there to stop one company from ripping off another and not so much for the ordinary Punter like you and I. It just annoyes me when I see situations where these laws appear to be a convienience for getting at people who are (or seem to be) just trying to make things better for all of us. Much the same as the situation with Oleg and the Avenger farce....as I saw it there was no need for it and to me they were just being awkward because they could be.
Best regards,
SLP


Just found out pike that for modding purposes the EULA means absolutely nothing. This is from a lawyer btw. The on-line flying community has been trying to sell this myth over and over to all the modders so they wouldn't mod the game it now appears. It is also pretty certain they knew it meant nothing right from the start! :x

[Beowulf]

Just found out pike that for modding purposes the EULA means absolutely nothing. This is from a lawyer btw. The on-line flying community has been trying to sell this myth over and over to all the modders so they wouldn't mod the game it now appears. It is also pretty certain they knew it meant nothing right from the start! :x

:lol: I'll find three lawyers that say otherwise!!! nice try stalker!

And those who point fingers at people being substandard are usually the ones that are substandard. I know the truth hurts....

I could care less what you do off-line with the program, but using the stuff on line is complete BS for every "honorable" mod user is 10 "cheater" mod users. Only looking to cause havoc and show everyone what a smacktard they are.

[Outlaw]

[quote=Pike]This is getting
Just found out pike that for modding purposes the EULA means absolutely nothing. This is from a lawyer btw. The on-line flying community has been trying to sell this myth over and over to all the modders so they wouldn't mod the game it now appears. It is also pretty certain they knew it meant nothing right from the start! :x

If Activision (or any other company) released the IL-2 hack and accompanying content (I'm talkin' for free here), they would be in court before the news hit The Register.

Just because there is no prosecution does not mean there is no fault or guilt. It doesn't take a lawyer to know that the IL-2 hackers have nothing to fear. It would cost much to go after them for no gain.

If a EULA wasn't legally binding then companies would not be paying the grabillions they do for software licenses.

--Outlaw.

[Outlaw]

That can be debatable in a court of law, even though it's spelled out it can be-fought! The judge may find fault of the company for not fully explaining the use of the EULA, depends on the amount of money and time the Company want's to spend on that person.

While it is true that fault or guilt only extends as far as what a judge or jury can be convinced of, that doesn't change fact. We all know of cases where a person committed the crime but were found not guilty (at fault) due to technicalities or just plain stupidity. The opposite is also true as shown by the many people that have been cleared by DNA evidence of crimes they were found "guilty" of committing long ago.

IMO the IL-2 EULA is not that hard to understand.

--Outlaw.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

something that's kind of shaping my thinking. The sound mod itsself is kind of gray territory here as it doesn't look like a true mod. Whereas turning non flyable ai aircraft into human flyables is

[Outlaw]

something that's kind of shaping my thinking. The sound mod itsself is kind of gray territory here as it doesn't look like a true mod. Whereas turning non flyable ai aircraft into human flyables is

I don't see how anyone could think this way. By definition there is no such thing as an IL-2 mod, only hacks and the severity is inconsequential.

--Outlaw.

[Chivas]

Stalkervision quote
----------------------------------------------------------
To me many the on-line crowd are extreamly selfish. They think not a bit about the non-onliners whatsoever just that someone may cheat on them in some on-line game. IMO these complainers more often then not are substandard pilots. Hell i see these same type of complainers whine about the game's ai cheating them even!
----------------------------------------------------------


hmmmm...lets see every other combat flight sims can be modded or hacked and here we have one sim that the on-line community can call home, and you want this one screwed up aswell. You call us extremely selfish. Those sims that had on-line communities were ruined by these hacks.

Does your supposition that complainers are substandard pilots hold true with your own complaining. Those that resort to name calling are usually trying to deflect scrutiny of their own deficiencies.

People who join the on-line community usually have their ass handed to them at first because they are used to flying only against the AI. They go away complaining about cheaters, lol. Until they tough it out and learn from those with on-line experience.

I can hear your screaming now, if someone hacked the AI in your latest download of BOB WOV and you had your ass handed to you everytime you flew off-line.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

I could care less what you do off-line with the program, but using the stuff on line is complete BS for every "honorable" mod user is 10 "cheater" mod users. Only looking to cause havoc and show everyone what a smacktard they are.

Got charts? In my experience even in a high cheat environment there are maybe one cheater in ten, not the other way around. I have no problem with the anti hack view and am fully aware of the dangers it MAY pose, but to accuse 10 out of 11 mod users of being cheaters with absolutely no evidence or even anectotes to suggest such just weakening your own position. 10 out of 11 mod users wouldn't even know how to cheat, since there are no cheats being released as mods (the tools are there yes, but you still have to know what you are doing). If you want to argue against the mod go right ahead, just come up with a way that is not innacurate to the point of being silly while insulting a lot of people. Again, inacurasies and insults do not put you on the high ground even if your side is right (which is debatable).

[GOZR]

I just found this .. something that could of be done long ago.. as many other fixes no wonder guys took out things into their hands.
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/images/mod/NormandyHack.jpg
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/images/mod/NormandyHackmap.jpg

[Bearcat]

Did it ever occur to anyone that the developer was perhaps reserving the right to implement certain features into his next sim? Features that thanks to a few clever individuals have now been prematurely launched.. and that of course is well within the developers rights..

The thing that really kind of just makes me shake my head at all this is....

1)Some of the hackers have the gall... the GALL to say that Oleg & 1C brought this on themselves because they didn't give them what they wanted when they wanted it. Unbelievable...

2)Some of the hackers act like they are owed something... as if they were cheated. 1C gave us all the best d@mned WWI aerial combat sim... PERIOD. It may have been missing some planes.. but I can guarantee that the reason why this sim has lasted as long as it has... and at the pinnacle that it has remained at for so long is that the integrity of it's code was safe. Yes.. I know all about the clowns who hacked into it a few years ago... but at least they didn't put it all out there.... Oleg owes us nothing.... we got what we paid for.


You know.... When I got into IL2 I was not a hardcore simmer.. I liked to fly.. but it would get kind of boring. One of the first things that impressed me when I came to IL2 from CFS was the community.. and the fact that the guy that made the sim was actually [b]talking to the folks who flew it.. and he even flew it himself!!!! Blew me away. I was on Hyperlobby my first night.. and there he was.. Oleg Maddox.. right there with the folks who bought his sim.. I remember when the 1.2 patch came out... and the Friday updates.. and the rumors of an add on.... one that would add more planes.. Thunderbolt... Hawks..... and Mustangs..


Good times for sure... and it is just a shame that this is how it is ending up.. Let me ask this... What other piece of software has occupied a space on your HD like this series.... even if you just got to it in the past year... what other piece of software aside from your OS that is not business related... gets your attention? I don't know about you folks.. but for me there is none.

I am looking forward to BoB.... and I hope like h@ll that it can remain un hacked longer than IL2 did.. and that my fried is saying something.. Personally I think one of the main reasons wy it has lasted this long has been because the code was encrypted...

[GOZR]

Nope.. never something was made to improve and they wouldn't .. I'm trying to understand as well what can make peoples mod.. and this is a good reason because daddy oleg is a bit stock and seeing a great sim like il2 at the end of it's carreer and nothing been done to really improve in certain areas or just fix things.

[fly_zo]

.. lets not be so critical on 1C developers ... IMHO their intentions and wishes are compromised by obligations and contracts with publisher ... Hope that with BoB will be different .

anyhow author of that map told me that all the work on normandy took only three days of his time ...

[stalkervision]

Chivas"]Stalkervision ----------------------------------------------------------
To me many the on-line crowd are extreamly selfish. They think not a bit about the non-onliners whatsoever just that someone may cheat on them in some on-line game. IMO these complainers more often then not are substandard pilots. Hell i see these same type of complainers whine about the game's ai cheating them even!
----------------------------------------------------------


Chiva.."hmmmm...lets see every other combat flight sims can be modded or hacked and here we have one sim that the on-line community can call home, and you want this one screwed up aswell. You call us extremely selfish. Those sims that had on-line communities were ruined by these hacks."

stalker.. I see no evidence whatsoever for this and nor does anyone else. :roll: "here we have one sim that the on-line community can call home." Stalker>Exactly your claiming the whole game as yours and only your property..! :shock:


Chivas.. Does your supposition that complainers are substandard pilots hold true with your own complaining. Those that resort to name calling are usually trying to deflect scrutiny of their own deficiencies.

stalker> I have no problem whatsoever with worrying about on-line cheaters. Obviously the situation isn't the same for you is it.. :)

chivas.." People who join the on-line community usually have their ass handed to them at first because they are used to flying only against the AI. They go away complaining about cheaters, lol. Until they tough it out and learn from those with on-line experience. "

stalker> of course

Chivas.." I can hear your screaming now, if someone hacked the AI in your latest download of BOB WOV and you had your ass handed to you everytime you flew off-line. "

Stalker> ahh what, screaming about being hacked "off-line" :lol: :lol: :lol: God this argument is way too silly! :lol: I have killed mig 21's and mig 15's many many times in a me-110 in WOV. You think a little thing like a hack of a basic piston airplane would even stop me.. Your rich... :lol:


Like I said substandard on-line pilots worrying about the last time another pilot shot them down that the other guy was cheating is all... :lol:

like I also said you guys even complain the ai cheats! :lol: I have taken on four and more ace mustang pilots in one substandard 109 and won, Same with the Brewser Buffalo and the Zero..

hell I have taken on four erich hartmans and won.. :lol:

I actually wouldn't mind the ai being hacked. It would be more of a challange..... 8)

Get a little better at combat flying and then worry about hackers will you..

I remember an incident where a very good fighter pilot first whipped a bunch of new pilots in a f-86 and then turned around and did the very same thing to them all in a captured mig 15

ever hear the old addage.."It isn't the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog"

Obviously not...

[stalkervision]

Hi Pike

There is a huge difference between Bill Gates and the Maddox team. Bill Gates develops a sim and forgets about it. They even dropped the whole series. It was also designed to be modded by the community.
The Maddox team have supported their game since 2001 and had plans to licence the further development of the sim after they moved on to the SOW series. Portions of the sim were never designed or intended to be modded. The monies they make on this sim will make noone a multi-millionaire.
CFS3 needed to be heavily modded to be at all interesting. Even if you added in all the best mods of CFS3, it still wouldn't even come close to the quality of the IL-2 series.

ahh licence the further development of the series??????????????

Show us where exactly that was ever said. I have never ever seen this. :roll:

http://www.bryanferry.com/images/iym_208.jpg

[stalkervision]

To all you EULA quoters..

ever hear that announcement at the begining of football games.

"This is national football league broadcast' Any retransmission, copying of the programs or any other uses without our written promission from the NFL is strictly forbidden."

better burn up all those illegal copies you made... :lol:

hay because of you the NFL only a made 10 billion dollars last year.. :x :D

[carguy_]

Got charts? In my experience even in a high cheat environment there are maybe one cheater in ten, not the other way around. I have no problem with the anti hack view and am fully aware of the dangers it MAY pose, but to accuse 10 out of 11 mod users of being cheaters with absolutely no evidence or even anectotes to suggest such just weakening your own position.

You`re completely out of touch with reality.
The number of cheaters,even if relatively small is not the worst part.First off, you can`t tell whether one`s cheating or not.Not one of the cheating accusations could ever be proved in any IL2 forum.There can never be a consensus on that.
Few cheaters are able to ruin the game for everyone and with no current way to get rid of them they are safe to roam anywhere they want.
A working CRT=2 is a myth.You can ignore that if you want because you and your idiot supporters clearly do not want to see the facts.It supports your view and whether it is true or not is without significance for you.
It is unfair to press everyone that base their joy with this game on a level playing field concept to think that there is no cheating going on.

But haaay, you fly offline,you have your goods so ther rest of the world should get over it.


10 out of 11 mod users wouldn't even know how to cheat, since there are no cheats being released as mods (the tools are there yes, but you still have to know what you are doing).

I do understand why those who respect Oleg Maddox have continually to face the disinformation campaign that goes on every IL2 forum.The facts clearly collide with modders` desired vision of total lack of control over the way the game works.
Few facts for you:

#1 changing FM is very easy

#2 the tools to change any aspect of the game are publicly available.

My only misfortune is that fogging the facts by the likes of you find masses of people unable to think logically.I and few others support the developper but it`s true we cant face the sheer numbers of dumbells standing beside you.


If you want to argue against the mod go right ahead, just come up with a way that is not innacurate to the point of being silly while insulting a lot of people.

Like I said it is my misfortune that you can gather 100 more posts here calling me a fanatic without adding some logical facts that would make me change my mind.The facts however clearly stay on the side of the developper.
Disinformation, illogical thesis`, complete ignorance of the past experiences.



Again, inacurasies and insults do not put you on the high ground even if your side is right (which is debatable).


Untrue.There is nothing debatable about cracking and modifying the game against the developper.It is against the dev,it offends his laws, it is wrong.
You don`t have any measures that may change that so you twist the facts to make them suit your clearly beneficial (for you) position.

I admit that I lost my nerves few times trying to inform people of what they`re doing.The sheer amounts of BS that is being posted again and again by folks like stalkervision are worthy of a month ban.I just can`t go stating and clearing things up again and again and again.It is obvious that there are lot of uninformed folks out there who are getting misinformed daily by people who have interest in IL2 going down to the dogs.

[Chivas]

Stalker

Its obvious you have no clue on what a hacker can do on-line. Even someone of your obvious skill could not out fight someone who spawns on your six and blows you away before you know he's there. Thats part of the reason the CFS 1 and 2 on-line community died. The same could be done to an off-line game, maybe even permently pork it, where all you could use is the original game.

FB has hundreds of aircraft, dozens of maps, and thousands of objects, all you have to bring is alittle imagination. You have this game to fly as is or you can mod all the others to your hearts content, but that isn't good enough for you. You've gotta hack this one too.

You've already told us how much better BOB WOV is than FB, so why not campaign for people to go over there were the developers welcome modders. It should be a win win. This may be part of your plan to disrupt this community and draw people away. I would expect it from you, but there was one who I respected in that community who seen fit to foster a situation that would allow mods against this developers wishes.

[GOZR]

The Big problem with BOB2 is that there is no Online.. but here what is interesting it can be done , they need lots of help over there and they welcome the moders.

====

Here a though for the IL2 hacking.

IL2 is getting in serious crisis.. now...when the hack can't be controlled, this is when panic comes in.
Now here the thing that hackers could do to fix this huge problem.
-First is to create a PunkBuster like for Hosts ( servers )
This will change dramatically the hacking histeria for sure.
After create a 4.08H complete version of the 4.08m with all the work done with and with out the sounds ( to me many hacked sounds are bad )
New maps, new 3D planes, new 3 D cockpits, fixed maps, new textures.... basicly a new a total new game then close it for anti other hackers do not touch the FM and create new one for new added planes.
Make it some how official and mostly the PunkBuster like should be a priority.. I think many will change their opinion on this matter after this .. but right now it's a big mess a big momboola!!! IMO and i did predicted it on c6 side.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

The Big problem with BOB2 is that there is no Online.. but here what is interesting it can be done , they need lots of help over there and they welcome the moders.

====

Here a though for the IL2 hacking.

IL2 is getting in serious crisis.. now...when the hack can't be controlled, this is when panic comes in.
Now here the thing that hackers could do to fix this huge problem.
-First is to create a PunkBuster like for Hosts ( servers )
This will change dramatically the hacking histeria for sure.
After create a 4.08H complete version of the 4.08m with all the work done with and with out the sounds ( to me many hacked sounds are bad )
New maps, new 3D planes, new 3 D cockpits, fixed maps, new textures.... basicly a new a total new game then close it for anti other hackers do not touch the FM and create new one for new added planes.
Make it some how official and mostly the PunkBuster like should be a priority.. I think many will change their opinion on this matter after this .. but right now it's a big mess a big momboola!!! IMO and i did predicted it on c6 side.

the sounds on your youtube vids weren't that bad.

[GOZR]

Because that are mine ;) which are way way better. But due to this big problem of fear i wont share period.
something as to be done seriously now and anti cheat.. and then maybe.

[stalkervision]

Stalker

Its obvious you have no clue on what a hacker can do on-line. Even someone of your obvious skill could not out fight someone who spawns on your six and blows you away before you know he's there. Thats part of the reason the CFS 1 and 2 on-line community died. The same could be done to an off-line game, maybe even permently pork it, where all you could use is the original game.


stalker>>Actually I realise this buddy. I have yet to see ANY of the dire things your prodicting will happen though. :roll:

FB has hundreds of aircraft, dozens of maps, and thousands of objects, all you have to bring is alittle imagination. You have this game to fly as is or you can mod all the others to your hearts content, but that isn't good enough for you. You've gotta hack this one too.

stalker> Hack shmack, no one wants to touch a thing that worries you buddy least of all me.

You've already told us how much better BOB WOV is than FB, so why not campaign for people to go over there were the developers welcome modders. It should be a win win. This may be part of your plan to disrupt this community and draw people away. I would expect it from you, but there was one who I respected in that community who seen fit to foster a situation that would allow mods against this developers wishes

stalker> There is already a very strong mod group over there. No need for new members.. :lol: Many people love Il-2 and will not even try BOB. Many people would love some additional new planes the developer seems not to care a wit about giving. I know I see them beg to the developer every day.. :(

You seem more worried about the developer and your own on-line gaming experiance then anything else buddy. Give the other side a chance for once huh?.

[stalkervision]

The Big problem with BOB2 is that there is no Online.. but here what is interesting it can be done , they need lots of help over there and they welcome the moders.

====

Here a though for the IL2 hacking.

IL2 is getting in serious crisis.. now...when the hack can't be controlled, this is when panic comes in.
Now here the thing that hackers could do to fix this huge problem.
-First is to create a PunkBuster like for Hosts ( servers )
This will change dramatically the hacking histeria for sure.
After create a 4.08H complete version of the 4.08m with all the work done with and with out the sounds ( to me many hacked sounds are bad )
New maps, new 3D planes, new 3 D cockpits, fixed maps, new textures.... basicly a new a total new game then close it for anti other hackers do not touch the FM and create new one for new added planes.
Make it some how official and mostly the PunkBuster like should be a priority.. I think many will change their opinion on this matter after this .. but right now it's a big mess a big momboola!!! IMO and i did predicted it on c6 side.

I can agree with most of this Gozar... 8)

[Beowulf]

Got charts? In my experience even in a high cheat environment there are maybe one cheater in ten, not the other way around. I have no problem with the anti hack view and am fully aware of the dangers it MAY pose, but to accuse 10 out of 11 mod users of being cheaters with absolutely no evidence or even anectotes to suggest such just weakening your own position. 10 out of 11 mod users wouldn't even know how to cheat, since there are no cheats being released as mods (the tools are there yes, but you still have to know what you are doing). If you want to argue against the mod go right ahead, just come up with a way that is not innacurate to the point of being silly while insulting a lot of people. Again, inacurasies and insults do not put you on the high ground even if your side is right (which is debatable).
HEY 6DOF is a cheat. there your argument doesn't hold water...

Go visit ARMA site see what has happened there. Go review what happened to red baron when everyone and their brother had there own canned FM, Go look the mess CFS is in, Go look BOB WOV debacle.

If you are using mod not licensed by developer your cheater. so my 10 to 1 hold true, because there probably only 1 out of 10 not using 6DOF!. You are using tool to gain an advantage or to modify your game differently from the unmodded game you a cheat.

Truth hurts Urufu cause your comments It's easy to say you a cheat as well. Oh wait you need chart.... here ya go.

| x
| x
| x
| x
| x
|x
-----------------------

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Ok, so everybody is a cheat, I'm a cheat he's a cheat everyone who can cheat will automatically cheat because cheating is fun, come cheat with us, we love being cheater, I love being called a cheater!!!!! /sarcasm

Think what you want about the damn hack but if any one of you were here and called me a cheater to my face you'd live to regret it! Just because I'm not on the high horse you are and like to fly B17's does not mean that I don't have integrety and know better than to cheat! You people sound like f$#@ng McCarthy, everones a comunist, they must be rooted out, the modders are raping our women and killing our children! Ever hear of the print-scren cheat? Thats been out there, does that mean all the respected members of the community that had keyboards with that button or had a copy of Fraps was a f@$ing cheat?! Say modders are breaking the EULA, say we ar killing the game, say we have insulted oleg, but DO NOT accuse people of cheating just because you disagree with the modding!

[LW_lcarp]

The User recognises that all of the rights associated with the Multimedia Product and its components (in particular the titles, computer codes, themes, characters, character names, plots, stories, dialogues, places, concepts, images, photographs, animation, videos, music and text contained in the Multimedia Product), as well as the rights relating to the trademark, royalties and copyrights, are the property of Ubi Soft and are protected by French regulations or other Laws, Treaties and international agreements concerning intellectual property.

It is not permitted:
- To make copies of the Multimedia Product,
- To operate the Multimedia Product commercially,
- To use it contrary to morality or the laws in force,
- To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work,
- To transmit the Multimedia Product via a telephone network or any other electronic means, except during multi-player games on authorised networks,
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
- To decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Multimedia Product.




So mission makers, skinners, movie makers, Hyperlobby and the people that play there are all breaking the EULA. So thats one arguement that wont stand up to the EULA battle.

[robtek]

i´ve been following this thread a while and i cant help to add my 2 cents.

anyone who uses hacks (mods) in il2 - online games is a potential cheater!!

The questionable thrill from a sometimes better but generally worse sound is really not worth it.

Most of the online pilots are not superpilots, like stalkervision according to one of his last posts.

To them ( the majority ) it really makes a difference if their regular flying skill is not enough for a worse pilot with a hacked fm.

to use these hacks in offline gaming, who cares?, except the developer, could one think.

BUT: if there are offline hacks they can and will be used online.

What i really don´t understand is why some people are getting a high by destroying something good like the IL2- Online Community.

I mean: that is so really short sighted if not really, really stupid, or just sick.

i really hope that a way is found to stop the use of these hacks in online - games.

just my 2 cents

robtek

[stalkervision]

Many of these on-line guys are really paranoid in the extream. :shock: :)

I have yet to see anyone show me where a hack was used ever to cheat in on-line play. EVER!

I guess even the possible potential of that thing happening drives these guys crazy! Far more then a mod ever would. People we are talking about a game here for christ hanging on the cross sakes! :lol:

Gozar has the right idea here. Listen to him everyone. Not everyone is out to get you btw.. :)

[BSS_Sniper]

Many of these on-line guys are really paranoid in the extream. :shock: :)

I have yet to see anyone show me where a hack was used ever to cheat in on-line play. EVER!

I guess even the possible potential of that thing happening drives these guys crazy! Far more then a mod ever would. People we are talking about a game here for christ hanging on the cross sakes! :lol:

Gozar has the right idea here. Listen to him everyone. Not everyone is out to get you btw.. :)

I won't even mention FM, weapon or DM cheats. There are, however, smaller things. One for instance, is removing the bar in the 190. While this may be a historically correct thing to do, you just gave yourself an advantage that no one else will have unless they DL that hack. Same goes for 6 DOF. Thats the problem and you don't even recognize it.

I can live with nice sounds and even the AI aircraft being flyable with the original FM, even though it never should've been touched. When you start removing parts and making other modifications that give YOU the advantage, thats no better than modding the FM.

[jasonbirder]

Obviously there are strong feelings raised by creation of new Mods for IL2, and the tiny but vociferous minority of online gamers feel the need to passionately support their belief in the primacy of an unmodified stock version of the game…Unfortunately though, they also feel the need to impose that belief on the large numbers of people that want to utilise the new additions to the game…as for them its not enough that they wish to remain with stock IL2 installations…they feel the need to ensure everybody else only utilises a stock IL2 installation for online compatibility.
Now because they feel so passionately about it, numerous emotive accusations are thrown into the discussion…its illegal to use the Mods, its immoral to use the Mods, Using the Mods is an insult to Oleg, Mod users are cheaters, development of Mods destroys a flight sim etc etc…
Now in the interest of balance I’d like to add my counter-arguments to the mix…

Its Illegal

This argument centres upon the fact that modifying the software is a breach of the EULA – notwithstanding the fact that the EULA is a commercial document intended to protect software publishers from financial loss through the reproduction and modification of their software in a commercial marketplace, ignoring the fact that there has never been a single instance of a software publisher taking a single user to court for modifying software they have purchased legitimately, not withstanding the fact that whole communities have grown up dedicated to modifying software for third party use…But it’s a big stick to beat the modding community with because then we can be accused of being Criminals!

Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.
Secondly the EULA refers to To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
Which means that movie makers, mission builders, skinners etc etc are all in breach of the EULA, something that I think we’ll all agree is ridiculous – no-one is going to be considered as breaching the law by creating a third party campaign and distributing it nor releasing a populated map template and releasing it…so why would it be considered illegal to create a retextured map and release it for example? The EULA makes no reference to what is considered acceptable and not acceptable in this context…simply because it was never written with the intent of preventing third party modification of legally purchased software…it was written to prevent commercial abuse, piracy and plagiarism!
Besides UBI the software publisher has a very pro-modding attitude towards the games it publishes – look at the Mod sections and discussions that exist within the official communities for Sims like LOMAC and Silent Hunter III & IV. If the publisher isn’t opposed to us modifying its software…then who else is there to tell us what we are doing is wrong?

Its Immoral

Ignoring the fact that its ridiculous to consider what I do with my copy of Il2 in the comfort of my own home a morality issue…I mean, if I kick my dog, hit my wife, steal my neighbours milk from his doorstep…that’s immoral, I really don’t consider installing an illuminated gun sight reticule a moral dilemma!
If modification of the software was considered immoral where was the hue and cry from the community when people were discussing the release of a no CD hack? Or ways of bypassing the securom copy protection on the initial Pe2 release? In fact people were tripping over themselves to find a way round these issues…So much for morality!

Its an Insult to Oleg

Well surely not as much as one as the times again and again he has been accused of Pro-German or Pro-Russian bias! Wasn’t that the reason he stopped visiting and posting at the Official UBI forums?

Mod users are cheaters

Well as far as I can see none of the Mods released so far are designed to create, uber planes, uber weapons and uber DMs, so I think there is far too much concern over this issue.
The Mods are intended for use by offliners anyway – and most of the major servers have put in place a check value to ensure that the servers cannot be joined by users of the Mod.
Besides Online cheating is an issue for online players…cheating and bad sportsmanship has existed in many forms for a long time…Flaps on a Slider, Prnt Scrn, Disconnecting, Team Killing, Shoulder Shooting, Kill Stealing etc etc…Its not something Offline players should concern themselves with…Its something for the Online community to police themselves with strong server rules and admin.
Nothing Offline players do or don’t do is going to affect what happens in the major hyperlobby servers is it?
Besides, I cannot understand why anyone would want to make the game easier for themselves anyway…surely the fun comes from the challenge! (In fact I’d love to see the Mod making planes more difficult to handle – giving more realistic quantities of Torque and making undercarriages more fragile for example) But then I’m interested in the whole combat flight simulation experience – dogfighting and air to air kills are only a small part of it for me personally – which is why I welcome something that increases immersion like the Sound Mod.


Development of Mods destroys a flight sim

The truth is, nearly all popular Flight Simulators have been heavily modified by third part communities and in every instance it has improved the game, extended its usable life and created a great deal of interest and enthusiasm amongst the users…Look at the evidence
Falcon 4 – heavily modded and yet a game that was released in 1999 is still going strong today, EAW modded to within an inch of its life and then some…and yet was by far the most popular World War 2 flight sim prior to the release of IL2, Janes F/A18 – the demise of Janes meant the game was dropped almost straight after release…but hard work by a dedicated community (Team Super Hornet) has created a game far beyond what was initially released…New theatres, new graphics, Track IR functionality, new cockpits etc etc. LOMAC – look at some of the fantastic mods that are being released for that game at the moment. Enemy Engaged! Probably the most dedicated modding community of all – have created a Sim that is so good that the modded EECH is far better than the newly published EECH2! So if none of these flight simulators have been destroyed by user mods…then why should IL2 be?

[stalkervision]

Jason you are the most level headed rational person I have ever had the pleasure of reading a post from. You make up for the long list of extreamest and selfish on-liners that believe Il-2 is their own personal property and are willing to say anything and do anything to keep it that way. Keep up all the good work buddy! 8) Stalker

[mmitch10]

Secondly the EULA refers to To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
Which means that movie makers, mission builders, skinners etc etc are all in breach of the EULA, something that I think we’ll all agree is ridiculous – no-one is going to be considered as breaching the law by creating a third party campaign and distributing it nor releasing a populated map template and releasing it…so why would it be considered illegal to create a retextured map and release it for example? The EULA makes no reference to what is considered acceptable and not acceptable in this context…simply because it was never written with the intent of preventing third party modification of legally purchased software…it was written to prevent commercial abuse, piracy and plagiarism!


You raise some interesting points in your post, and I don't have the time to comment on all of them. However, I don't agree with your opinion that because the EULA makes no reference to which files can be modded, then *all* the files can be modded.

It's a question of acquiesecnce. The EULA prevents the purchaser from modding files, but because certain files (skins, speech, missions) etc. are not encrypted, and becuse no-one has tried to prevent people from creating missions, skins etc in the 6 or so years that IL2 has been out, then it can be argued that the owner, has effectively acquiesced to us making thses modifications.

The .SFS files on the other hand are encrypted. That is a clear statement of intent from the owner that they do not wish anyone to hack these files, and to do so would be a breach of the EULA.

As a strictly offliner, the issue doesn't really affect me, but for what it's worth I chose not to install any of the mods.

As to the other points, I'll leave it to other people to comment.

[stalkervision]

Encrypted... :D The "encription" everyone always raves about and points to as some kind of proof oleg never wanted the game tampered with turns out was about as secure as a walmart suitcase lock... :lol:

[Beowulf]

Encrypted... :D The "encription" everyone always raves about and points to as some kind of proof oleg never wanted the game tampered with turns out was about as secure as a walmart suitcase lock... :lol:

I'll buy that lock anytime it took 5 years to break..... :P

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Ok, to prove that I'm not trying to win for one side or the other, simply to correct falshoods and call for sanity; the modders need to stop denying that oleg does not want the mods. I don't think it's as bad as everyone makes out and I don't think oleg would hate every mod to come out, but to say that it's ok because the ecryption was easy to break is just as retarded as suggesting that every mod user is a cheat.

[stalkervision]

Encrypted... :D The "encription" everyone always raves about and points to as some kind of proof oleg never wanted the game tampered with turns out was about as secure as a walmart suitcase lock... :lol:

I'll buy that lock anytime it took 5 years to break..... :P

:D I believe it was because people were truly expecting it to be a lot more difficult then it really was and tried all kinds of compllicated solutions on it before they tried the most simple ones. Foolish people, you always try the easiest stuff first... :)

[stalkervision]

Ok, to prove that I'm not trying to win for one side or the other, simply to correct falshoods and call for sanity; the modders need to stop denying that oleg does not want the mods. I don't think it's as bad as everyone makes out and I don't think oleg would hate every mod to come out, but to say that it's ok because the ecryption was easy to break is just as retarded as suggesting that every mod user is a cheat.

No one is saying that. Many of you guys just think Il-2 is so worth it's weight in gold that you inflated it's value a million times over is all. Oleg was already working on another sim engine even as his team was finishing this one up. If you all hadn't just kept demanding more and more from this one all the time I am sure SOW would have been out by now... :P

[carguy_]

Obviously there are strong feelings raised by creation of new Mods for IL2, and the tiny but vociferous minority of online gamers feel the need to passionately support their belief in the primacy of an unmodified stock version of the game


A clear case who is making the issue an offline vs online then.Offline/online gaming is not connected to the obvious case which is breaking into the code.Whoever does that without developpers` agreement is guilty of offending his personal laws as you only buy the license to use the game.Saying that only online pilots oppose the mods is simply a lie which fits your disinformation campaign.It is so easy to demonise anyone who really cares for the game or simply respects Oleg Maddox`s personal laws.There has been some threads on the ubi boards which features also offliners opposing the mods.



…Unfortunately though, they also feel the need to impose that belief on the large numbers of people that want to utilise the new additions to the game…as for them its not enough that they wish to remain with stock IL2 installations…they feel the need to ensure everybody else only utilises a stock IL2 installation for online compatibility.

Sorry, a fact should never called a belief.My tools in my replies are facts you can`t deny.You can only fog them with splitting hair methods in hoping that the majority will intimidate those who respect the creator and hold a strong desire in integrating the whole IL2 community.





Its Illegal

This argument centres upon the fact that modifying the software is a breach of the EULA – notwithstanding the fact that the EULA is a commercial document intended to protect software publishers from financial loss through the reproduction and modification of their software in a commercial marketplace, ignoring the fact that there has never been a single instance of a software publisher taking a single user to court for modifying software they have purchased legitimately, not withstanding the fact that whole communities have grown up dedicated to modifying software for third party use…But it’s a big stick to beat the modding community with because then we can be accused of being Criminals!


Dura lex,sed lex as they say.If your country respects the international agreements than the EULA is a part of it.If you are a citizen of such a country then you are obliged to repect the law rightfully accepted and enforced by your government.The people who make the mods fit in the same cathegory as the hackers who cracked the code.An illegal addition to the game presents no legal value and offends developper`s laws.

This is not a case of crossing on the red light.This is a case of stealing one`s intellectual property.A clear case that is not debatable.



Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.


You ,as a citizen of a country that has agreed to respect and enforce the law, are obliged to proceed by the letter of law.Decision whether some law is right or wrong does not belong to you.There are special bodies in every country that decide.As a citizen that is obliged to follow the law you can sue the law as against human/citizen laws and your rightful bodies will decide accordingly.




Secondly the EULA refers to To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
Which means that movie makers, mission builders, skinners etc etc are all in breach of the EULA, something that I think we’ll all agree is ridiculous – no-one is going to be considered as breaching the law by creating a third party campaign and distributing it nor releasing a populated map template and releasing it…so why would it be considered illegal to create a retextured map and release it for example? The EULA makes no reference to what is considered acceptable and not acceptable in this context…simply because it was never written with the intent of preventing third party modification of legally purchased software…it was written to prevent commercial abuse, piracy and plagiarism!

There is a big difference.The developper does not oppose creating missions/campaigns/skins/3rd party utilities.Also, since a long time those utilities have been hosted by the UBI site meaning that they agree on suhc policy.The same with the nocd crack that you kiddies have been unable to prove.Targ posted the link to the UBI site which hosts the nocd crack.That means that the developper as much as the producer agrees on hosting and apreading all those utilities.




Besides UBI the software publisher has a very pro-modding attitude towards the games it publishes – look at the Mod sections and discussions that exist within the official communities for Sims like LOMAC and Silent Hunter III & IV. If the publisher isn’t opposed to us modifying its software…then who else is there to tell us what we are doing is wrong?

I`ve had a good laugh over this.

Simple. The above games have not been modified through cracking the code and moreover releasing it to the public.The above games are though to be open for modding from the start.That puts them in a whole different cathegory than IL2 Sturmovik : 1946.You are completely off the base concluding that UBI is all for a modding section for IL2.

Go ahead and give it a go lol



Its Immoral

Ignoring the fact that its ridiculous to consider what I do with my copy of Il2 in the comfort of my own home a morality issue…I mean, if I kick my dog, hit my wife, steal my neighbours milk from his doorstep…that’s immoral, I really don’t consider installing an illuminated gun sight reticule a moral dilemma!


Sorry,too much simplyfing here.I can`t even begin to laugh at your shortsightness and complete lack of perception of your doings.
Read my above replies 100 times,maybe you can understand it then.



If modification of the software was considered immoral where was the hue and cry from the community when people were discussing the release of a no CD hack? Or ways of bypassing the securom copy protection on the initial Pe2 release? In fact people were tripping over themselves to find a way round these issues…So much for morality!

See above.You can contact Targ too.

The morality issue is your personal case.If you spit in Oleg Maddox`s face then you`re simply an asshole.He worked on the sim for 5 years,he added tons of stuff for free.He also wanted to give the game to closed modder community.I hope I`m clear enough for you.




Its an Insult to Oleg

Well surely not as much as one as the times again and again he has been accused of Pro-German or Pro-Russian bias! Wasn’t that the reason he stopped visiting and posting at the Official UBI forums?


Completely off base here.I could call Oleg an idiot and he would ignore it or not,depends on him.That is however complely different from offending his personal laws, breaking into his creation without his agreement lastly telling that this all is his fault.I`d think that it is so clear to understand that I keep having doubts whether you know that you`re making an idiot out of yourself here.



Mod users are cheaters

Well as far as I can see none of the Mods released so far are designed to create, uber planes, uber weapons and uber DMs, so I think there is far too much concern over this issue.

The only opinion that counts in this case is the developper`s.He decides what is done with his creation.He said that he does not agree on it.He has voiced his opinion on the closed code concept many times before.



The Mods are intended for use by offliners anyway – and most of the major servers have put in place a check value to ensure that the servers cannot be joined by users of the Mod.


Good intentions go looong way and end up stirring much BS.Mods are easily usable also online.CRT=2 does not work.
But I know you don`t like such facts.




Besides Online cheating is an issue for online players…cheating and bad sportsmanship has existed in many forms for a long time…Flaps on a Slider, Prnt Scrn, Disconnecting, Team Killing, Shoulder Shooting, Kill Stealing etc etc…Its not something Offline players should concern themselves with…Its something for the Online community to police themselves with strong server rules and admin.


Great, before it was all good.Then someone decides to crack the code and release it to a public of half intelligent kids who,a s this thread shows, would do anything just to suit their endless needs.The mod thing is more of "those who are able to enjoy the vanilla game (300 flyables sic!!!) vs those who don`t knon how to find a way to have fun with this game".
You would think that in the past, 50 flyables was enough, then 100, then 300 in the end.But nope, kiddies want more and, as long as the Police don`t knock at their door, happily spit in the face of it`s creator.

Besides, a changed FM/DM is a whole new calibre of cheat, really not comparable with those listed.As long as players had equal FM/DM, everything else was a small glitch.

Oh yeah and you don`t give a @@@@ too either. Crack the code, kill online community and online play and let them deal with it.No punkbuster apps with it, just "online players should deal with it" quote.
Thanks!



Nothing Offline players do or don’t do is going to affect what happens in the major hyperlobby servers is it?

Correction, it affects everyone.



Besides, I cannot understand why anyone would want to make the game easier for themselves anyway…surely the fun comes from the challenge! (In fact I’d love to see the Mod making planes more difficult to handle – giving more realistic quantities of Torque and making undercarriages more fragile for example) But then I’m interested in the whole combat flight simulation experience – dogfighting and air to air kills are only a small part of it for me personally – which is why I welcome something that increases immersion like the Sound Mod.

Great, you`re such a sport. Let`s make a deal.You pay me 10000 buck for every single case of online cheating if you`re so sure about it.



Development of Mods destroys a flight sim

The truth is, nearly all popular Flight Simulators have been heavily modified by third part communities and in every instance it has improved the game, extended its usable life and created a great deal of interest and enthusiasm amongst the users…Look at the evidence
Falcon 4 – heavily modded and yet a game that was released in 1999 is still going strong today, EAW modded to within an inch of its life and then some…and yet was by far the most popular World War 2 flight sim prior to the release of IL2, Janes F/A18 – the demise of Janes meant the game was dropped almost straight after release…but hard work by a dedicated community (Team Super Hornet) has created a game far beyond what was initially released…New theatres, new graphics, Track IR functionality, new cockpits etc etc. LOMAC – look at some of the fantastic mods that are being released for that game at the moment. Enemy Engaged! Probably the most dedicated modding community of all – have created a Sim that is so good that the modded EECH is far better than the newly published EECH2! So if none of these flight simulators have been destroyed by user mods…then why should IL2 be?


Apples and oranges, as in every pro modding post.Completely off base, ignoring the past experiences with killing online play in CFS,ignoring all the differences between listed games and IL2.Wothless drivel aimed to misinform folks.


Well?Iguess that`s it then?All your arguments out with the trash. :lol:

[stalkervision]

If you guys are all hopped up on defending codes try this one. Means as much as your silly rational.. :lol:

http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/davinci/index-utc.php

people and companies break manafacture's codes all the time. If it was so illegal to modify the game the code wouldn't even have to exist now would it? :) Obviously the software engine is none to special either because it was never patented that I know of.. :roll:

a perfect example is performance and aftermarket car part business as I have pointed out before. These software programs truly cost a mint to develop yet not one car company says squat about them being broke and modified and even sold. I wonder why not? Why because they didn't have a super legal EULA on it of course! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[BSS_Sniper]

Stalker, you really do no real good to your cause. Your replies have zero insight and are that of a teenager.

The main concern is that some of these mods will find their way into online gaming. As I stated before, the sounds and flyable AI aircraft may not impose any advantage, however, when someone has 6 DOF or removed parts from a cockpit so they can see better and the others can't, that is a cheat.

It can't get any more simple than that. I could compare it to counterstrike and people using hack/mods to see through walls. It is NO different.

[BSS_Sniper]

Maybe this will help. From the man who made the game.

Oleg Maddox



Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 18


PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Abbeville-Boy wrote:
"Mr. Maddox
Could you state your feeling on the hack mod issue. i and others would like to know your thought's on this and what it means for the future"


I personally hate any hack that may damage fair online gameplay.



http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/viewtopic.php?t=191&start=405

[stalkervision]

Stalker, you really do no real good to your cause. Your replies have zero insight and are that of a teenager.

The main concern is that some of these mods will find their way into online gaming. As I stated before, the sounds and flyable AI aircraft may not impose any advantage, however, when someone has 6 DOF or removed parts from a cockpit so they can see better and the others can't, that is a cheat.

It can't get any more simple than that. I could compare it to counterstrike and people using hack/mods to see through walls. It is NO different.

Actually I was thinking exactly the very same thing about your post the only difference is I'm the one who is right..

[BSS_Sniper]

Stalker, you really do no real good to your cause. Your replies have zero insight and are that of a teenager.

The main concern is that some of these mods will find their way into online gaming. As I stated before, the sounds and flyable AI aircraft may not impose any advantage, however, when someone has 6 DOF or removed parts from a cockpit so they can see better and the others can't, that is a cheat.

It can't get any more simple than that. I could compare it to counterstrike and people using hack/mods to see through walls. It is NO different.

Actually I was thinking exactly the very same thing about your post the only difference is I am the one that is right..

I can tell, you keep referring to cars in a sim forum. Way to go brains. lol No one really takes you seriously. You lack any form of maturity in anything you type in here. :)

[stalkervision]

Your constant pathetic whining reminds me of a three year old girl who's favorite dolly got broke and now wants someone to fix it.... :roll:

[stalkervision]

Stalker, you really do no real good to your cause. Your replies have zero insight and are that of a teenager.

The main concern is that some of these mods will find their way into online gaming. As I stated before, the sounds and flyable AI aircraft may not impose any advantage, however, when someone has 6 DOF or removed parts from a cockpit so they can see better and the others can't, that is a cheat.

It can't get any more simple than that. I could compare it to counterstrike and people using hack/mods to see through walls. It is NO different.

Actually I was thinking exactly the very same thing about your post the only difference is I am the one that is right..

I can tell, you keep referring to cars in a sim forum. Way to go brains. lol No one really takes you seriously. You lack any form of maturity in anything you type in here. :)

You really don't have a clue do you...? Talk of maturity from a child who obviously has nothing more to his life then worrying about cheating in on-line play.. :roll:

[stalkervision]

defend your precious little toy till another toy comes out and you soon forget about the one that got broke.. :lol:

[jasonbirder]

One thing i'll agree with Carguy on is,
This is not a case of crossing on the red light.
Of course it isn't..people are regularly stopped and fined for crossing red lights...no-one has ever been stopped and fined for modifying their own legally purchased software!

[stalkervision]

Jason you have way to many brain cells for these fools to ever understand but maybe just maybe a little of your wisdom will rub off on a few of these clueless wonders by reverse osmosis... :lol:

[carguy_]

That`s also what I`m talking about.Some epople won`t realise the meaning of their doings until someone comes and punches it into their heads. :x

[stalkervision]

well damn I ain't crossing on a red light no more! :lol:

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

Yup, the ugly claws UBIzoo have reached this forum too :roll: :(


EVGENY!!!!!!

[carguy_]

I`d like to see Evgeny work against Oleg :lol:

I figured maybe now that the Ubi mods totaly screwed up maybe Evgeny will have some rational reasoning here.

Go Evgeny! :lol:

[stalkervision]

Yup, the ugly claws UBIzoo have reached this forum too :roll: :(


EVGENY!!!!!!

That's because the mods are all anti-mod and close down every post on this subject they happen not to approve of being totally bias as it were. The mark of a true democrat! :lol:

[stalkervision]

This all reminds me of Bush and his stance on sex...,abstanence! :lol:

just don't do it! :)

[stalkervision]

I had a pretty good run on my "mods for Ubisoft forums post" I figured they would be so pissing themselves with laughter and amazment we could get a bit of a discussion in. :)


sort of like the bank robber that walks into a bank naked and demands all it's money because he says he has a bomb on him.. :D

[stalkervision]

actually I felt a lot like this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDICYjC8S28&feature=related


of course all my mod buddies are a lot like this work gang... :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPcLPzItOQs&feature=related

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Quote:

Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.



You ,as a citizen of a country that has agreed to respect and enforce the law, are obliged to proceed by the letter of law.Decision whether some law is right or wrong does not belong to you.There are special bodies in every country that decide.As a citizen that is obliged to follow the law you can sue the law as against human/citizen laws and your rightful bodies will decide accordingly.

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law. Look up logic in the dictionary and then use it. Hard to counter anothers point when you don't even understand what they said.

And Stalkervision, STFU!!!! I am a mod user but nuetral as far as the debate goes and you are not helping anyone but the rabid zealots! Your acting like a kid and your arguments are of such low quality they barely qualify for the term. When you get to highschool take some debate classes.

[stalkervision]

Quote:

Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.



You ,as a citizen of a country that has agreed to respect and enforce the law, are obliged to proceed by the letter of law.Decision whether some law is right or wrong does not belong to you.There are special bodies in every country that decide.As a citizen that is obliged to follow the law you can sue the law as against human/citizen laws and your rightful bodies will decide accordingly.

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law. Look up logic in the dictionary and then use it. Hard to counter anothers point when you don't even understand what they said.

And Stalkervision, STFU!!!! I am a mod user but nuetral as far as the debate goes and you are not helping anyone but the rabid zealots! Your acting like a kid and your arguments are of such low quality they barely qualify for the term. When you get to highschool take some debate classes.

STFUSU you sound as neutral as dirt.... :roll:

[carguy_]

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law.

Okay.I wager he is a citizen in a common law system country.If he is so sure this aint gonna hold up in court(at least where he lives) then there must be a precedent stating so so other courts could use it adequately.Cause if that`s just some lawyer`s expertise then it means nothing as mine aswell be other four lawyers who say otherwise(as written in earlier post).

Maybe cite some of it(best it be from his own state if he can do it).

Cuz it`s not his personal "expertise" I wager? :)

[stalkervision]

Isn't this what the anti-mods always resorts to. Telling the otherside to shut up and even closing posts when they don't hear what they like... :roll:

[BSS_Sniper]

Quote:

Well for starters there is a big question mark over whether any EULA is enforceable in law…it breaches standard contract law in that you are not made aware of the conditions of purchase until after you have purchased the software – and typically you will have no re-dress because most computer games retailers will not refund money on a purchased product once it has been opened (to prevent piracy). Meaning that you the purchaser were coerced into agreeing to the EULA.



You ,as a citizen of a country that has agreed to respect and enforce the law, are obliged to proceed by the letter of law.Decision whether some law is right or wrong does not belong to you.There are special bodies in every country that decide.As a citizen that is obliged to follow the law you can sue the law as against human/citizen laws and your rightful bodies will decide accordingly.

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law. Look up logic in the dictionary and then use it. Hard to counter anothers point when you don't even understand what they said.

And Stalkervision, STFU!!!! I am a mod user but nuetral as far as the debate goes and you are not helping anyone but the rabid zealots! Your acting like a kid and your arguments are of such low quality they barely qualify for the term. When you get to highschool take some debate classes.

Totally agree! lmao Stalker isn't that bright. It's like trying to argue with Mary's brother on Something About Mary. Wheres mah baseball! derrrrrr
I didn't want to use anything more intelligent than that as he may not comprehend.

[stalkervision]

You can write any "law" you like and have people sign it. This is very common with leases beween tenent and landloard btw. It is another thing about them being legal whatsoever and they frequently arent. Just because a lease has been signed and certain things in it agreed to by the signer doesn't makes it any more legal.

I'll give you another real good example. Next time you get a credit card offer look at the terms in tiny letters in the back of the form. It says that by agreeing to have the credit card you give up the right to declare bankruptcy and agree to pay all the credit card companies bills if you do. All of this is totally illegal but is still allowed to be included under the law. Just by signing that form doesn't make you libel either....

"Totally agree! lmao Stalker isn't that bright.:" read this passage
sniper. :roll:

I obviously know a lot more about the law then most of you trolls..

[stalkervision]

I probably could get you fools to agree to be my slave forever and give up all your rights as a US or other countries citizen and If you signed the paper you would actually believe it! :lol:

[carguy_]

LOL he really is an idiot! :lol:

[stalkervision]

Did you read what I wrote whatsoever? :roll:

[stalkervision]

amazing. you people are even to dumb to understand this whatsoever..! :shock:

[stalkervision]

You see terms in contracts are frequently written this way to fool the great unwashed such as yourselves into believing you have less rights then you do. Obviously they do it because it works...

read this...


" Some copyright owners use EULAs in an effort to circumvent limitations the applicable copyright law places on their copyrights (such as the limitations in sections 107-122 of the United States Copyright Act), or to expand the scope of control over the work into areas for which copyright protection is denied by law (such as attempting to charge for, regulate or prevent private performances of a work beyond a certain number of performances or beyond a certain period of time). Such EULAs are, in essence, efforts to gain control, by contract, over matters upon which copyright law precludes control.

:roll:


You see you can include anything in a EULA can't you as in any contract btw.

doesn't make it any more binding on you that you signed it either...

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law.

Okay.I wager he is a citizen in a common law system country.If he is so sure this aint gonna hold up in court(at least where he lives) then there must be a precedent stating so so other courts could use it adequately.Cause if that`s just some lawyer`s expertise then it means nothing as mine aswell be other four lawyers who say otherwise(as written in earlier post).

Maybe cite some of it(best it be from his own state if he can do it).

Cuz it`s not his personal "expertise" I wager? :)

What he's trying to point out is that the EULA says that by purchasing the software that your bound by the contract, but a contract is by default null and void if the terms of the contract are not presented up front, which it i not is the case of an EULA. Therefore the EULA will not stand up as it is inherently void.

And Stalker, I'm really not trying to flame you but you are not helping to soothe the paranoia, some of your reasoning and logic is actually feeding it and giving them more ammo.

[stalkervision]

Read what he wrote dude, he just said that the EULA will not hold up in a court of law but you tell him he has to obey the law.

Okay.I wager he is a citizen in a common law system country.If he is so sure this aint gonna hold up in court(at least where he lives) then there must be a precedent stating so so other courts could use it adequately.Cause if that`s just some lawyer`s expertise then it means nothing as mine aswell be other four lawyers who say otherwise(as written in earlier post).

Maybe cite some of it(best it be from his own state if he can do it).

Cuz it`s not his personal "expertise" I wager? :)

What he's trying to point out is that the EULA says that by purchasing the software that your bound by the contract, but a contract is by default null and void if the terms of the contract are not presented up front, which it i not is the case of an EULA. Therefore the EULA will not stand up as it is inherently void.




And Stalker, I'm really not trying to flame you but you are not helping to soothe the paranoia, some of your reasoning and logic is actually feeding it and giving them more ammo.


read this again buddy..


" " Some copyright owners use EULAs in an effort to circumvent limitations the applicable copyright law places on their copyrights (such as the limitations in sections 107-122 of the United States Copyright Act), or to expand the scope of control over the work into areas for which copyright protection is denied by law (such as attempting to charge for, regulate or prevent private performances of a work beyond a certain number of performances or beyond a certain period of time). Such EULAs are, in essence, efforts to gain control, by contract, over matters upon which copyright law precludes control.

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

You can write any "law" you like and have people sign it. This is very common with leases beween tenent and landloard btw. It is another thing about them being legal whatsoever and they frequently arent. Just because a lease has been signed and certain things in it agreed to by the signer doesn't makes it any more legal.

I'll give you another real good example. Next time you get a credit card offer look at the terms in tiny letters in the back of the form. It says that by agreeing to have the credit card you give up the right to declare bankruptcy and agree to pay all the credit card companies bills if you do. All of this is totally illegal but is still allowed to be included under the law. Just by signing that form doesn't make you libel either....

"Totally agree! lmao Stalker isn't that bright.:" read this passage
sniper. :roll:

I obviously know a lot more about the law then most of you trolls..

You see terms in contracts are frequently written this way to fool the great unwashed such as yourselves into believing you have less rights then you do. Obviously they do it because it works...

read this...


" Some copyright owners use EULAs in an effort to circumvent limitations the applicable copyright law places on their copyrights (such as the limitations in sections 107-122 of the United States Copyright Act), or to expand the scope of control over the work into areas for which copyright protection is denied by law (such as attempting to charge for, regulate or prevent private performances of a work beyond a certain number of performances or beyond a certain period of time). Such EULAs are, in essence, efforts to gain control, by contract, over matters upon which copyright law precludes control.

:roll:


You see you can include anything in a EULA can't you as in any contract btw.

doesn't make it any more binding on you that you signed it either...

Now thats more like it, stalker, cut the antics and make more posts like this. :)

EDIT: You posted the things I quoted while I was typing the previous post (I'm at work), then you responed to it while I was making this post, lol.

[stalkervision]

the stalker ain't so dumb and nutty as he might appear at first glance... :twisted: :wink:

Eulas like any contract can say pretty much what they want.. :wink:

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

the stalker ain't so dumb and nutty as he might appear at first glance... :twisted:

This seems the case but be careful, remember, the fanatics are that way because of a skew in vision, they are very likely to attach to some of your less high brow statements and ignore/dismiss anything else you say. Then as is the want of zealots of this sort they will apply it to all of the people they view as "on your side". If one side of an argument is going nuts and make accusations and generally making an ass of themselves, the opposing side need only appear calm and reasoned to make clear who is in the right.

[stalkervision]

the stalker ain't so dumb and nutty as he might appear at first glance... :twisted:

This seems the case but be careful, remember, the fanatics are that way because of a skew in vision, they are very likely to attach to some of your less high brow statements and ignore/dismiss anything else you say. Then as is the want of zealots of this sort they will apply it to all of the people they view as "on your side". If one side of an argument is going nuts and make accusations and generally making an ass of themselves, the opposing side need only appear calm and reasoned to make clear who is in the right.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Ya, I know and they frequently do.. :)

[stalkervision]

I guess I may to get all "contractional law"...on your nutty behinds but seeing I am in a period of "Transition " I'll let it slide..
:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE9Qm8mShik&feature=related

[robtek]

When i read stalkervisions replys i just have to qote einstein:

There are two thing without limits, the universe and human stupidity
but then, i´m not shure accounting to the universe.

excuse if i have misquoted, but the meaning is correct.

robtek

[stalkervision]

When i read stalkervisions replys i just have to qote einstein:

There are two thing without limits, the universe and human stupidity
but then, i´m not shure accounting to the universe.

excuse if i have misquoted, but the meaning is correct.

robtek

so which of the two "unlimited" catagories do you consider yourself in? :lol: :lol:

Let me qive you another quote..

"There was never a dirth of human beings who actually believed by quoting someone far far smarter then themselves it put them in the same league as the person they were quoting"

You can quote that btw. The author is me.. :)


BTW. Einstein was a renown pervert and skirt chaser. Just because he was a math wize doesn't make him an expert on everything including the human condition fool..

[carguy_]

Rhighto!Einstein aint got shit on stalkervision :lol:

[BSS_Sniper]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

[stalkervision]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

[BSS_Sniper]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

[stalkervision]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

sure I can. Of course. I believe the servers will really have to control this though somehow. No use punishing the majority of people who are playing very fair just because of a few rotten apples. The one site I know of really strives to not allow any cheats whatsoever. Sites like this should be encouraged to develop mods that benefit all. Who knows with a lot more encourgment they may even be able to make a NEW uncheatable on=line version of Il-2 just for you guys..

I bet you never thought of that one.. :)

of course you guys have attaked them so much already I don't believe that they would be to keen on that idea! :lol:

but if you actually met them half way they might consider it still.. :wink:

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

sure I can. Of course. I believe the servers will really have to control this though somehow. No use punishing the majority of people who are playing very fair just because of a few rotten apples. The one site I know of really strives to not allow any cheats whatsoever. Sites like this should be encouraged to develop mods that benefit all. Who knows with a lot more encourgment they may even be able to make a NEW uncheatable on=line version of Il-2 just for you guys..

I bet you never thought of that one.. :)

of course you guys have attaked them so much already I don't beleve thet would to two keen on that idea! :lol:

but if you actually met them half way they might consider it still.. :wink:

Now this is the kind of sensible conversation we need to be having. I agree with all points here. In fact, I removed the 6DOF mod because it is potentially controversial and I do want to be able to fly on all servers without having an unfair advantage. None of the other mods offer an unfair advantage so far. I think the mod community and the opposing community need to work together to come up with a viable solution that offers at least the following:

1. A "mod friendly" environment for those that want to do pretty much whatever.

2. A way to have completely stock il2 guarentied.

3. And a way for those who want the middle ground, additional flyables and better sounds/texture/maps, but no unfair advantages and definitely no FM/DM changes.

If we can come up with a way to do this and then self police the cheaters I think we'll make something good of all this mess yet.

[BSS_Sniper]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

sure I can. Of course. I believe the servers will really have to control this though somehow. No use punishing the majority of people who are playing very fair just because of a few rotten apples. The one site I know of really strives to not allow any cheats whatsoever. Sites like this should be encouraged to develop mods that benefit all. Who knows with a lot more encourgment they may even be able to make a NEW uncheatable on=line version of Il-2 just for you guys..

I bet you never thought of that one.. :)

of course you guys have attaked them so much already I don't beleve thet would to two keen on that idea! :lol:

but if you actually met them half way they might consider it still.. :wink:

Now this is the kind of sensible conversation we need to be having. I agree with all points here. In fact, I removed the 6DOF mod because it is potentially controversial and I do want to be able to fly on all servers without having an unfair advantage. None of the other mods offer an unfair advantage so far. I think the mod community and the opposing community need to work together to come up with a viable solution that offers at least the following:

1. A "mod friendly" environment for those that want to do pretty much whatever.

2. A way to have completely stock il2 guarentied.

3. And a way for those who want the middle ground, additional flyables and better sounds/texture/maps, but no unfair advantages and definitely no FM/DM changes.

If we can come up with a way to do this and then self police the cheaters I think we'll make something good of all this mess yet.

In the end I admit it takes the community, especially those on servers that know each other, to police itself. I've seen all the mod's available and most do not offer any type of advantage over another player.

On that same note, there are ideas floating around there that suggest things that could offer said advantage. It's nothing drastic or anything to do with FM, DM or weapon modification, just things like I mentioned before about the 190 bar removal. Thats great for offline, but for online, I have to say I'd say no way unless everyone has it, but they won't.

As far as the Frankenplane ideas, although they may be cool ideas in a way, I don't really support that, even though it is only a visual modification.

Overall it seems like the guys that run that site have made it clear that they will not support any FM, DM or weapon modifications whatsoever. That for me makes me feel a little better.

Concerning the EULA, we shouldn't really even worry ourselves about that. It hasn't gotten any of us anywhere and none of us are lawyers or are we representing 1C or UBI. I hear what both sides are saying, valid points, but it is just taking this thread down the drain.

What can we do to 1. keep online play fair and clean?
2. have both sides coexist in peace?

There has to be some middle ground otherwise you can just kiss this sim and community goodbye.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

Stalker, who cares about the EULA? That is a moot point at the moment. You've totally ignored valid concerns that would come into play online. I'll mention them one more time. Taking parts out of the cockpit so only those with the mod can see better or having a mod'd 6 DOF when others don't. I'd like to know your thoughts on that since without a doubt, that would be viewed as cheating by anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

why don't you just go on a on-line site that allows those mods buddy and really enjoy yourself. Then you will be equal to all the rest again. 8) That's what I would do..

hell then you get to use all different new maps and new aircraft! :)

I have no problem with that. If someone has the mod's and they are on a "mod friendly" server, fine. The problem I have is when people go on servers using those mod's where they aren't wanted. I saw on another forum where Warclouds banned someone because they were using just the sound mod. They rectified that and let him back in, but let everyone know that mod's are not welcome. Someone else posted underneath, "well, he shouldn't have said anything and just used it". That is the part that people are worried about. Those people.

BTW, I have checked out the sound mod and the ai flyables with cockpits. Those are nice, as long as no one starts tweaking FM"s and such. The ones I don't care for are when they start removing, changing and adding parts to things that give an unfair advantage online. I hope you can see the online communities concerns there and if so, that is what needs to be discussed.

sure I can. Of course. I believe the servers will really have to control this though somehow. No use punishing the majority of people who are playing very fair just because of a few rotten apples. The one site I know of really strives to not allow any cheats whatsoever. Sites like this should be encouraged to develop mods that benefit all. Who knows with a lot more encourgment they may even be able to make a NEW uncheatable on=line version of Il-2 just for you guys..

I bet you never thought of that one.. :)

of course you guys have attaked them so much already I don't beleve thet would to two keen on that idea! :lol:

but if you actually met them half way they might consider it still.. :wink:

Now this is the kind of sensible conversation we need to be having. I agree with all points here. In fact, I removed the 6DOF mod because it is potentially controversial and I do want to be able to fly on all servers without having an unfair advantage. None of the other mods offer an unfair advantage so far. I think the mod community and the opposing community need to work together to come up with a viable solution that offers at least the following:

1. A "mod friendly" environment for those that want to do pretty much whatever.

2. A way to have completely stock il2 guarentied.

3. And a way for those who want the middle ground, additional flyables and better sounds/texture/maps, but no unfair advantages and definitely no FM/DM changes.

If we can come up with a way to do this and then self police the cheaters I think we'll make something good of all this mess yet.

In the end I admit it takes the community, especially those on servers that know each other, to police itself. I've seen all the mod's available and most do not offer any type of advantage over another player.

On that same note, there are ideas floating around there that suggest things that could offer said advantage. It's nothing drastic or anything to do with FM, DM or weapon modification, just things like I mentioned before about the 190 bar removal. Thats great for offline, but for online, I have to say I'd say no way unless everyone has it, but they won't.

As far as the Frankenplane ideas, although they may be cool ideas in a way, I don't really support that, even though it is only a visual modification.

Overall it seems like the guys that run that site have made it clear that they will not support any FM, DM or weapon modifications whatsoever. That for me makes me feel a little better.

Concerning the EULA, we shouldn't really even worry ourselves about that. It hasn't gotten any of us anywhere and none of us are lawyers or are we representing 1C or UBI. I hear what both sides are saying, valid points, but it is just taking this thread down the drain.

What can we do to 1. keep online play fair and clean?
2. have both sides coexist in peace?

There has to be some middle ground otherwise you can just kiss this sim and community goodbye.

and it only takes 9 pages to reach said conclusion......... :roll:

[SlipBall]

I wonder how many mods are made and only used by the maker, or shared between the maker and a few of his friends on-line....no doubt that they exist.....That's why I say IL-2 is dead for on-line competion, but fun is still possible on-line, till bob gets here

[Urufu_Shinjiro]

In the end I admit it takes the community, especially those on servers that know each other, to police itself. I've seen all the mod's available and most do not offer any type of advantage over another player.

On that same note, there are ideas floating around there that suggest things that could offer said advantage. It's nothing drastic or anything to do with FM, DM or weapon modification, just things like I mentioned before about the 190 bar removal. Thats great for offline, but for online, I have to say I'd say no way unless everyone has it, but they won't.

As far as the Frankenplane ideas, although they may be cool ideas in a way, I don't really support that, even though it is only a visual modification.

Overall it seems like the guys that run that site have made it clear that they will not support any FM, DM or weapon modifications whatsoever. That for me makes me feel a little better.

Concerning the EULA, we shouldn't really even worry ourselves about that. It hasn't gotten any of us anywhere and none of us are lawyers or are we representing 1C or UBI. I hear what both sides are saying, valid points, but it is just taking this thread down the drain.

What can we do to 1. keep online play fair and clean?
2. have both sides coexist in peace?

There has to be some middle ground otherwise you can just kiss this sim and community goodbye.

I agree with absolutely everything you just said. This is what we should be doing. We have too much work to do to find a solution to be at eachothers throats as we have been. We have a lot of talented people in the community, hopefully we have a programmer or two that can come up with some sort of filecheck system.

[Baron]

Sry Stalkervision, u and your buddies may THINK u have valid "arguments"...but that doesnt make it so. U people are so of base its not even amusing.

Now, i could sit here pointing out everything u are wrong in, but alas, i wouldnt say anything that hasnt been said allredy and still u puke your "logic" all over the place, wich tells me your just yet another snot nosed kid who think he knows best without actually HAVING a clue

Online community: selfless whiners?....are u for real?


Now, mosy on over to your halfassed BoB sim and repeat your mantra to someone who actually have an intrested. They actually support mods..and still u are over here lollying about...what is that?

Jesus H Christ on a popsicklestick!! Oleg, 1C, pretty much everyone with a say in the matter have said NO, NO, NO..Oleg himselfe said in no unsertain terms what he thinks about it and the damage it have done to the release of 4.09 and in extention to uppcomming BoB, and still u and your buddies keep it up...what the hell is wrong with u? Did u hit your head at an early age? Traffic acciden?..or are u and your kiddie gang just THAT dence? What?



The 2 sides need to come up with a way to coexist in peace and harmony? :lol:

1 side need a reality check thats for sure.


My appoligizes to the mods but i just cant keep tiptoing arround this matter any longer. :x

No one should have to read this kind of garbage and not be able to post suiteble responses.

[carguy_]

I agree wholeheartedly.

Demanding acceptance of derailing the game altoghether is just as naive as thinking the devs don`t mind. :)

[Chivas]

Your wasting your breath...its impossible to argue with the skewed logic.

[stalkervision]

Sry Stalkervision, u and your buddies may THINK u have valid "arguments"...but that doesnt make it so. U people are so of base its not even amusing.

Now, i could sit here pointing out everything u are wrong in, but alas, i wouldnt say anything that hasnt been said allredy and still u puke your "logic" all over the place, wich tells me your just yet another snot nosed kid who think he knows best without actually HAVING a clue

Online community: selfless whiners?....are u for real?


Now, mosy on over to your halfassed BoB sim and repeat your mantra to someone who actually have an intrested. They actually support mods..and still u are over here lollying about...what is that?

Jesus H Christ on a popsicklestick!! Oleg, 1C, pretty much everyone with a say in the matter have said NO, NO, NO..Oleg himselfe said in no unsertain terms what he thinks about it and the damage it have done to the release of 4.09 and in extention to uppcomming BoB, and still u and your buddies keep it up...what the hell is wrong with u? Did u hit your head at an early age? Traffic acciden?..or are u and your kiddie gang just THAT dence? What?



The 2 sides need to come up with a way to coexist in peace and harmony? :lol:

1 side need a reality check thats for sure.


My appoligizes to the mods but i just cant keep tiptoing arround this matter any longer. :x

No one should have to read this kind of garbage and not be able to post suiteble responses.


You haven't explained why we are "so off base" whatsoever. You COULD explain why...

You COULD HUH..? Go right ahead buddy. I need a good laugh..... :lol:

don't you just love post lurkers that jump in to insult you, say everything you said was wrong but can't be bothered to explain why because ahhh.."It has been all said before" :roll: and then just disappear. Then a few dill-holes jump in to agree with even less information..

and Underpants you have no clue whatsoever and I truly mean WHATSOEVER to how good BOBWOV is now and I am just as glad because I wouldn't want a complete tool like you over there to ruin it..

keep flying your ahh "realistic" non-torque propeller planes underpants.... :lol:

[robtek]

it´s all a waste of time.
to argue with stalkervision and his lookalikes is of no use.
them people have, in my opinion, not the equipment for a real diskussion, i.e a functional brain.
to fight against stupidity is a lost cause.
of course there will be a reply and to everybody, except the previously called people, it will have no real meaning.
And to seperate the online and offline community;
When i started il2 i played offline, i had no need for a community. ok some people made skins, some missions that was fine, but no real community.
And it was still the dumb, cheating ai i was fighting, in short: offline is mostly for loners and the poor folks without internet.
That changed with online gaming. Intelligent adversaries, no two missions the same, contact and talking to people all over the world with the same interest, thats what i call a community.
Now i´m really writing too much, the people who fear for the community think like me and the other can´t or don´t want to understand.
robtek

[stalkervision]

Wasting time is talking with you fools... :lol:

[stalkervision]

I hope you guys do know the way you troll the modders and off line folk they could care less now about listening to you anymore and will just go on doing their own thing and making huge improvments to the game while you keep crying and whining like little girls worried someone might cheat on you in an on-line session of shoot um up doom.... :lol:

[jasonbirder]

May be of interest to those who state so vehmently that a breach of the EULA is against the law...as i pointed out earlier there are legal precendents that consider the EULA to be a cooercive contract and consequently unenforcable...

Contract Formation:
“Terms Later” Contracting: Bad Economics, Bad Morals, and a Bad Idea for a Uniform Law, Judge Easterbrook Notwithstanding, by Roger C. Bern - 12 J.L. & Pol’y 641 (2004)


The Article states that “a rule sanctioning "terms later" contracting increases information asymmetry, increases transaction costs, enhances hold-up and opportunistic behavior by vendors, and results in inefficiencies and distributional unfairness by systematically redistributing wealth from consumers to vendors.” The author claims that "terms later" contracting “fails to protect the reasonable expectations of buyers while at the same time protecting the unreasonable expectations of vendors, thus abandoning the only moral justification for courts to enforce promises.” He also argues that this rule “abandons the principle of impartial treatment of the parties (vendors are favored) and abandons achieving justice between the parties in order to achieve some perceived greater societal good.”

[jasonbirder]

it´s all a waste of time. to argue with stalkervision and his lookalikes is of no use. them people have, in my opinion, not the equipment for a real diskussion, i.e a functional brain. to fight against stupidity is a lost cause.

Thats not really an arguement is it...saying its no use arguing because the other side is just stupid...
Argue your points, defend your corner but don't just fire out insults...

And to seperate the online and offline community;
When i started il2 i played offline, i had no need for a community. ok some people made skins, some missions that was fine, but no real community. And it was still the dumb, cheating ai i was fighting, in short: offline is mostly for loners and the poor folks without internet.

Hello! You wonder why there is a split in the community between onliners and offliners and then go on to call offline play dumb and offline players loners...YOU may prefer the fun of an online furball, but the majority of IL2 players are offliners and insulting them doesn't advance your argument one bit...

[carguy_]

May be of interest to those who state so vehmently that a breach of the EULA is against the law...as i pointed out earlier there are legal precendents that consider the EULA to be a cooercive contract and consequently unenforcable...

Waiting for that precedent,smackie.You can post 10 publications,doesn`t mean anything.A judge can say all he wants as long as it his personal opinion of this law.If that is a fragment of a certain precedent(justification) please post the whole thing.A precedent might indeed be a reason for you to disobey a flawed law but you have to be sure that next 100 such cases will be ended the same way.That is ofcourse only for your country,so others might kiss such a precedent good bye if they live somewhere else.



Hello! You wonder why there is a split in the community between onliners and offliners and then go on to call offline play dumb and offline players loners...YOU may prefer the fun of an online furball, but the majority of IL2 players are offliners and insulting them doesn't advance your argument one bit...

Oh yeah the favorite way of yours - twisting is to suit you.Retreating from the previous comments on the online vs offline issue as you put it?You dunno where you called that an offlinevsonline problem?Should I quote it to you?

:lol:

[jasonbirder]

Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology, 939 F.2d 91 (3rd Cir. 1991) was case in which the legality and history of computer EULAs was explored. The court noted, "When these form licenses were first developed for software, it was, in large part, to avoid the federal copyright law first sale doctrine" thus the intent of EULAs after 1990 were to preempt federal statutes using contract law and that they serve no purpose besides attempts to preempt consumer rights in other statutes.

In this case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit held that a EULA disclaimer waiving all express and implied warranties, printed on the outside of the box, was not binding.

Good enough for you?

[jasonbirder]

Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp., 150 F. Supp. 2d 585 (S.D.N.Y.2001), was a U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York decision involving whether software license agreements are binding. It held that license agreements are akin to contractual agreements, thus to be binding there must be mutual consent.

The court ruled that the license agreement for the Smart Download software was not binding on the plaintiffs and thus denied to compel arbitration for plaintiff's breach of the license agreement.

The court ruled that the software license agreement was not binding because a binding contract means that both parties know of the terms and agree to them.

Or is that any better for you?

Two seperate US court rulings indicating that Software EULA are not legally enforcable binding contracts...I suppose its a little too much to expect an apology ;)
But you could perhaps agree that i'm not a Smackie :)

[carguy_]

Okay then, as a mod user you did not break the law.Good for you and any others living under those courts` jurisdiction.I`d like to see the whole casus and ratio decidendi but I think we have all the material we need.Link to those maybe?


Oleg has no legal grounds in USA.I`d like to see if this is repeated by any courts from Europe.In law systems other than common law only the Supreme Court has the last saying here so it`s not so easy.

I don`t agree with the modding one bit as it is no respect to developper but I guess that at least in regards to US citizens the law argument is out. :x

So from my POV you`re still breaking the law. The difference is that you`re not living in my part of the world.


In other words, an asshole but not a criminal asshole. :lol:

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

alright, who can put a copy of the license agreement in this here thread?

[fly_zo]

@stalkervision:

great fight m8 .... you have free drink for life on me ...

once i thought fighting the trolls its fun too.... but they are like 1 level of "Invaders" repeated over and over and over and ..... boring!!!!

[stalkervision]

@stalkervision:

great fight m8 .... you have free drink for life on me ...

once i thought fighting the trolls its fun too.... but they are like 1 level of "Invaders" repeated over and over and over and ..... boring!!!!


Thanks buddy but also thank Jason. I set them up but he knocked them down and totally finished the job... :lol: :lol: :)

It will take them quite a while to remove the boot prints he put on their behinds.. :lol:

[Chivas]

The EULA can be interpreted differently everytime it is dragged thru the legal system. The intention of the developer has a high priority in making the judgement.

The developers intention was to leave some aspects of the sim open for modding and other aspects encripted to protect his development techniques and fair on-line play.

There is no point in arguing with people who have no respect for the developers wishes, or understand from the history of other on-line sims, what effect it had on the on-line community. What I can't understand is if Modding so great why arn't you all modding and flying BOB WOV and the CFS series. In the CFS series the Maps, FM, DM, etc...have been modded for years...it should be perfect by now, but your all still here.

I get a laugh out of people who never fly on-line and never experienced the effects of hacks, tell us not worry, it won't be problem.

[fly_zo]

ups.... many thanks to Jason too :D

Z

[fly_zo]

The EULA can be interpreted differently everytime it is dragged thru the legal system. The intention of the developer has a high priority in making the judgement.

The developers intention was to leave some aspects of the sim open for modding and other aspects encripted to protect his development techniques and fair on-line play.

There is no point in arguing with people who have no respect for the developers wishes, or understand from the history of other on-line sims, what effect it had on the on-line community. What I can't understand is if Modding so great why arn't you all modding and flying BOB WOV and the CFS series. In the CFS series the Maps, FM, DM, etc...have been modded for years...it should be perfect by now, but your all still here.

I get a laugh out of people who never fly on-line and never experienced the effects of hacks, tell us not worry, it won't be problem.


first level of "Invaders" again? ...........boring

and while onliners didn't give a s**t for offliners ( except insults) over the years .... why the hell should we consider them at all?

first level of "Invaders" again? ...........boring

[stalkervision]

ups.... many thanks to Jason too :D

Z


I hear by give Jason the nickname "The Terminator"...

on second thought this one is much better " The Annihilator" 8)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Annihilus.png

and he does it with such understated style too! :lol:

[carguy_]

first level of "Invaders" again? ...........boring


Well ofcourse, you obviously didn`t have any ideas to get throught that level. :lol:

[fly_zo]

still addicted to quoting .... :lol:

Carguy ,it isn't healthy anymore :wink:

... and yes , hopefully someone will make mod for you "Invaders" too... :lol:

[BSS_Sniper]

Fly and Stalker, those kind of immature and snide remarks are exactly what will just push people away from anything you are trying to convey to them. That's what this community doesn't need.

[stalkervision]

Fly and Stalker, those kind of immature and snide remarks are exactly what will just push people away from anything you are trying to convey to them. That's what this community doesn't need.

Hay I am willing to be fair to anyone willing to meet me half way and be fair back. Aiways have been, always will be. I believe you left out a few people on your list there sniper didn't you? :? Maturity is a two way street buddy and this street always seems to only go one way.

[stalkervision]

This situation reminds me a lot of Bush and his constant call for the end of Partisan politics bickering between the democrats and the republicans. His idea of "healing" is for the democrats to give him and the republicans everything they want. Then he will "talk". Just exactly like this situation it appears.

Tell me one thing the non-modders are offering the modders in a compromise situation?

How about this so called " offer" No problem for you whatsoever about this individual and maturary levels or worrying about the community with this poster huh?

"it´s all a waste of time.
to argue with stalkervision and his lookalikes is of no use.
them people have, in my opinion, not the equipment for a real diskussion, i.e a functional brain.
to fight against stupidity is a lost cause.
of course there will be a reply and to everybody, except the previously called people, it will have no real meaning.
And to seperate the online and offline community;
When i started il2 i played offline, i had no need for a community. ok some people made skins, some missions that was fine, but no real community.
And it was still the dumb, cheating ai i was fighting, in short: offline is mostly for loners and the poor folks without internet.
That changed with online gaming. Intelligent adversaries, no two missions the same, contact and talking to people all over the world with the same interest, thats what i call a community.
Now i´m really writing too much, the people who fear for the community think like me and the other can´t or don´t want to understand.
robtek

:roll:

we keep getting silly eula arguments and insults thrown at us right and left STILL which jason proved are total nonsense. I don't hear much talk whatsoever of real compromise from most of the other side that I have seen just more insults.

I call that immature.

all I ever hear is the phony bogus offer of the qusi-meaning word "healing" :roll:

No substance whatsoever just more spin...

until you guys ALL show that you want real compromise and not just bogus spin words like the word "healing" It will stay that way.

Frankly I have had way to many olive branches snapped in half and used to beat me with to care to offer anymore whatsoever.

Now it is all up to you to make some real offers.

Sniper are you even close to being functionally aware on even the most basic and lowest level of human consciousness and awareness next to being in a coma or asleep that calling someone's remarks " immature and snide" is an insult to that person all in it'self buddy? Apparently not...

Btw, that last sentence was a comment about your remarks. It has absolutely no direct reflection on you whatsoever. :)

[stalkervision]

back to more "compromise offers" by the on'liners I bet... :lol:

[ElAurens]

We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.

You claim you want to "improve" the offline aspect of the sim. Great, it does need it. I have tried for six years of constant flying this sim to "get into" offliine and every time I try I walk away in frustration, because no matter how well constructed the campaign is, it still is totally lacking for me. So you lot want to fix it. Very laudable, but, how are you "fixing" it? By adding more flyable aircraft and maps, which is not the fundamental problem with offline. The problem is the AI. You know it and I know it, and so does Oleg.

Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".

No, you are just using the mantra of improvement as an excuse to play with a new toy, that's all there is to it.

You very often castigate the online players for not being concerned about the offline user. But from where I am standing, you don't give a rat's behind about the online player's very valid concerns about the monster that you guys let loose without being able to control it. If online collapsed tomorrow you lot wouldn't care one damn bit. Why should you? After all you have your shiny new toy to play with.

The fact that what you have done has pushed back the release of SOW:BoB, something that would benefit all of us in that it will have the ability to add user made items for offline use, goes right over your heads.

Oh the irony.

You can type paragraph after paragraph in an effort to justify your deed, but it is falling on deaf ears, for we see your work for what it is and we see you for what you are.

There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.

[stalkervision]

ElAurens "Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".


I would love it because the ai has a lot of room for improvment IMO but any and all modes we talk about are considered cheats by You all.. :(

[stalkervision]

ElAurens..We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.


That is the server job isn't it? On every other on-line game it is.. :roll:

[stalkervision]

"ElAurens"]We go around and around, and still the hack supporters will not admit that they are killing the online aspect of this sim. The hacked FMs are showing up online. The Warbirds of Prey servers have already banned users for doing so, and they have the tracks to prove it. And still you say there is nothing to worry about.

>we aren't killing squat.. :roll: so you banned a few players for cheating? Every on-line game does. what makes you so special?<


ElAurens..You claim you want to "improve" the offline aspect of the sim. Great, it does need it. I have tried for six years of constant flying this sim to "get into" offliine and every time I try I walk away in frustration, because no matter how well constructed the campaign is, it still is totally lacking for me. So you lot want to fix it. Very laudable, but, how are you "fixing" it? By adding more flyable aircraft and maps, which is not the fundamental problem with offline. The problem is the AI. You know it and I know it, and so does Oleg.

Funny, I don't see any "AI mod".

> As I said before I would like them but you demanded we don't dp hardy anything to the game and let me remind you people are constantly whining for new aircraft. Apparently you have never seen this. :? Just because YOU don't want them or need them should other people suffer?<

NElAurenso.. you are just using the mantra of improvement as an excuse to play with a new toy, that's all there is to it.

> hardy. We are responding to what the developers never wanted to respond to for the games users<

ElAurens..You very often castigate the online players for not being concerned about the offline user. But from where I am standing, you don't give a rat's behind about the online player's very valid concerns about the monster that you guys let loose without being able to control it. If online collapsed tomorrow you lot wouldn't care one damn bit. Why should you? After all you have your shiny new toy to play with.

?If that was the truth we wouldn't even need to talk to you would we? :) <

ElAurens..The fact that what you have done has pushed back the release of SOW:BoB, something that would benefit all of us in that it will have the ability to add user made items for offline use, goes right over your heads.

>No actually you and the community have done that all by yourself with all your constant whiny requests for NEW AIRCRAFT! :x Oleg said new aircraft take at least three to six months to produce. I figure if mods were availabe back then and in use you would have had SOW almost two years ago! :lol:

ElAurens...Oh the irony.

>Indeed! :lol: :lol:

ElAurens..You can type paragraph after paragraph in an effort to justify your deed, but it is falling on deaf ears, for we see your work for what it is and we see you for what you are.

There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.


> This is exactly what I have been saying all along you want no compromise whatsoever and just call all modders liars and cheats. What do you think about your on-line friends now sniper?

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

[stalkervision]

The real irony of all these personal attacks agains't us mods who talk here is that we want to compromise with you all. We actually are in support of you. :) That is why we talk to you still. You are driving us further and further away from this support of the on-line community with all these personal attacks though...

[GF_Mastiff]

its funny how you modders talk about modding but when its not modded correctly and looks suspicious I wounder why some people are offended?

I was in a server, I will not name, they allow for the modds and I seen a very funny plane fly by me its wings were lets say weired looking in that one pointed up to the right the other pointed down to the left and it look like one of those walk like an Egyptian figures, who's to say what kind of quality control goes into the modding; EH?!

So if theres going to be modding it sure better match the FM and esprits de corps of the IL2 FB 1946 OLeg Maddox's version.

[robtek]

maybe it should be viewed like modders vs. non-modders is like smoker vs non-smokers.
in both cases is somebody affected from the doings of the other side, but not vice versa.
robtek

[kristorf]

Can we not accept that them that have it have it, them that don't don't.

If used soley for offline or ip to ip what damage is done to the online community (being mainly an online player myself)??

This is an arguement that goes into an ever decreasing circle, with some-one eventually disappearing up their own a*se.

Everyone is entitled to a view, and (in my opinion anyway) as long as they don't get personal or insulting it should stay that way.

[robtek]

and if pigs had wings they could fly

robtek

sorry, couldn´t help it

i really wouldn´t have a problem with modding if it wouldn´t affect online gaming.
The real and implicated influence of modding to online-gaming is desastrous.
If the modders (who founded this problem) find a way to ban the mods from online gaming with rc2, great, go ahead, i´m with you all the way.
But what i see is that the mods are modified that the (not very good) anti-cheat-protection of il2 is bypassed.
If the mods really where only for offline, p2p or open servers this would not have been happened.
Again: it looks like some modders want to destroy the fun for the online community.

[ElAurens]

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

This statement says it all for me.

You are indeed a 14 year old playground bully, and nothing more. A wannabe online gangsta who gets his rocks off playing power games with legitimate users.

You better grow up son, because reality is about to go upside yo head bro.

:roll:

[fly_zo]

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

This statement says it all for me.

You are indeed a 14 year old playground bully, and nothing more. A wannabe online gangsta who gets his rocks off playing power games with legitimate users.

You better grow up son, because reality is about to go upside yo head bro.

:roll:

quote:
"Name calling, how typical.

I do not own an mp3 player and have no music on my computer. I listen to vinyl LPs on a very high end system, and have the odd CD for my car only. I never rip music because that short changes the artist. A little something for you to think about.

And because I fly online exclusively (except for testing) I have no use for DCG.

In short you know nothing about me. Which is understanable, as you seem to know very little about things in general."

so for you name calling is ok? ... double standards ...as i said: hypocrite !

[Outlaw]

I hate to tell you this but none of the legal decisions posted earlier PROVE anything regarding the IL-2 EULA. One specifically mentioned nothing more than a warranty disclaimer printed on the outside of the box and the other was a case involving the LACK OF MUTUAL CONSENT. That is not the case with IL-2 since, to install the software, YOU MUST CONSENT TO THE AGREEMENT.

For boxed software, the EULA is not an agreement at time of purchase, it is an agreement at time of installation and you CAN return software if you do not agree to the EULA. Admittedly you will have to fight, bitch, and moan but it can be done. If you buy it with a credit card it's even better b/c you can just dispute the charge through the bank. In all likelihood you even get to keep the software!

IF BOXED SOFTWARE EULAs WERE NOT ENFORCEABLE, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH SOMETHING ELSE BY NOW.

Why do you think that companies pay license fees to use other game engines (such as the Quake engine, UT engine, HL engine, Cry engine, etc.)? If the EULA was not enforceable they would just buy ONE copy of the game and mod/hack it to their hearts desire.

Please do NOT mention the fact that no one is charging for the Il-2 hacks UNLESS you can point out where in the EULA it allows for such.


--Outlaw.

[SlipBall]

It's really so much more than a legal issue. Hacks do ruin on-line play for your on-line brothers. There is no way around that, not all will reconize the ill effects, some won't care, others get joy out of it, to hurt on-liners. It would have been much better for all, if the code was left alone and those people had waited for bob sounds..... Well it is too late now to change the situation, so we should stop the go arounds and insults, and arguing....we are all brother pilots, and should just talk tactics, aircraft, etc. and hopefully go on as friends here

[stalkervision]

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

This statement says it all for me.

You are indeed a 14 year old playground bully, and nothing more. A wannabe online gangsta who gets his rocks off playing power games with legitimate users.

You better grow up son, because reality is about to go upside yo head bro.

:roll:


Did you or did you not make this statment to met..? Noticed you left it out there.. :wink:

"There will be no compromise.

There will be no peace.

Compromising and making peace with cheats and liars never works.
_________________


A bully? :lol: No bud, I just knew it would get you to sweating. :lol: See the only fourteen year old here is you.

I could care one Iota what you guys do to even bother but a lot of my friends do and they might not take so kindly to being insulted.

Reality Upside my head. Get real fool... Like I said we hold all the cards..

You are giving a whole lot of people a real reason to do what you say you don't want them to do by insulting them all the time..

[SlipBall]

Stalker, easy big feller :lol: .......no one is gaining any ground here, lets just drop it

[stalkervision]

If you don't want any compromise. That is fine with me. After all we hold all the cards .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:

This statement says it all for me.

You are indeed a 14 year old playground bully, and nothing more. A wannabe online gangsta who gets his rocks off playing power games with legitimate users.

You better grow up son, because reality is about to go upside yo head bro.

:roll:

quote:
"Name calling, how typical.

I do not own an mp3 player and have no music on my computer. I listen to vinyl LPs on a very high end system, and have the odd CD for my car only. I never rip music because that short changes the artist. A little something for you to think about.

And because I fly online exclusively (except for testing) I have no use for DCG.

In short you know nothing about me. Which is understanable, as you seem to know very little about things in general."

so for you name calling is ok? ... double standards ...as i said: hypocrite !

Exactly Fly_Zo could these guys be any more hypocritcal? I guess calling us all "liars and cheats' is ment as a compliment.. :D

[stalkervision]

Stalker, easy big feller :lol: .......no one is gaining any ground here, lets just drop it


It's already dropped buddy. As you said... :wink:


What's the point right? :)

[jasonbirder]

hate to tell you this but none of the legal decisions posted earlier PROVE anything regarding the IL-2 EULA. One specifically mentioned nothing more than a warranty disclaimer printed on the outside of the box and the other was a case involving the LACK OF MUTUAL CONSENT. That is not the case with IL-2 since, to install the software, YOU MUST CONSENT TO THE AGREEMENT.

There are no precedents for an identical legal case (IE legitimate purchaser being taken to court by the publisher for personal use modification of his own software) hence quoting guideline cases...but the weight of opinion is that these EULAs (known as Shrinkwrap agreements in the US) are unenforcable, because they centre on an un-even balance of information in favour of the vendor which is against principles of free commerce (see the UCC - universal commercial code)

Why do you think that companies pay license fees to use other game engines (such as the Quake engine, UT engine, HL engine, Cry engine, etc.)? If the EULA was not enforceable they would just buy ONE copy of the game and mod/hack it to their hearts desire.

Licence fee's are paid because use of a substantial amount of code from one piece of software in another would be in breach of tradtional intellectual property and copywright laws they are nothing to do with EULAs at all.

[kristorf]

Sorry gents, I was under the impression this wa a serious forum regarding iL2 and all things related, appears I was wrong and its just another 'slag fest'.

Never mind, I bet you will all be happy and content when you drive others away with incesant ranting and raves.

Bye... :cry:

[SlipBall]

Stalker, easy big feller :lol: .......no one is gaining any ground here, lets just drop it


It's already dropped buddy. As you said... :wink:


What's the point right? :)




Well that was easy........................hey Stalker!...give me 5000 dollor'shttp://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/blink.gif

[stalkervision]

Stalker, easy big feller :lol: .......no one is gaining any ground here, lets just drop it


It's already dropped buddy. As you said... :wink:


What's the point right? :)




Well that was easy........................hey Stalker!...give me 5000 dollor'shttp://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/blink.gif


Only if you give me 10,000 dollars. Then I''ll make change for you.. :D

[stalkervision]

The more I think about this issue the more silly I realise it it. :) Here we have a mod community with all the power in the world to do whatever they want and 99.99% not using it but just asking for just a little respect from a community with no power whatsoever to change thing back the way they want them and that insults them time and time again and calls them cheats and liars. :)

sort of like a man holding a RPG to another man's head and the man with the RPG asking the other man just to try to be nice and not to insult him anymore! Then the man keeps right insulting him! :lol:

[ElAurens]

Funny way to gain respect don't you think?

Respect is earned, not forced.

Another concept lost on you.

Pointing a gun at a man's head and demanding respect is a sure way to make an enemy.

But enough, I grow weary of these ill founded arguments of your's and Zo's.

Just understand that you have convinced no one in the online community.
And your veiled threats have not gone un-noted.

And all for some cheesy hacked together virtual aircraft, which after a few months will be every bit as boring as the 300 odd aircraft we now have, and you still won't have offline fixed.

The joke is on you in the end.

[crazyivan1970]

I wonder when stalkervision will stop calling bunch of hackers a "mod community"

[stalkervision]

I wonder when stalkervision will stop calling bunch of hackers a "mod community"

tsk..tsk...Ivan. I thought mods all believe in promoting peace through understanding..

apparently they revert to their true troll nature on other forums.. :lol:

[stalkervision]

alright so be it "Those damn hackers. The only true mods are Il-2 community driven" :lol:

which will cease to be supported after 4.09 ....

[carguy_]

Funny way to gain respect don't you think?

The crux of it that the hackers and their supporters ignored the most important fact, that this all is done against the developper, against his will.
Some of them may do it legally so it doesn`t make a difference if they ever should be gratefful for the value Oleg Maddox presented with his sim.After all these years of continued dev support with countless stuff given for free, guys like stalkervision don`t gave a damn anyway.For them, their needs and entertainment is all there is to it.They do not see the broader meaning - IL2 was something never before created and it ends its life stabbed in the back by its socalled community.The only optimistic thought here is that it took them 5 years so maybe BoB still has a chance.Because if they can breach it quickly after the release, the whole concept of such a unique simulation may be buried alltoghether.
If I was Oleg,I`d price my games from now just as MS does.The stupid kiddies will pay dearly for their toys and the financial compensation for Oleg might just keep him going on with this.


The question is what sense is there in creating whole new theatres of operations through few years if hackers can create all those by themselves?Naive are those who think they will only play with the offline version of BoB.As much as many of us can`t understand it, cheaters(which have open door now by the hackers) will want to modify online countent aswell.

FPS games or sims like SH can deal with it, but flight sims can be damaged with such a tendency.Offliners will still have their offline version to modify but onliners won`t have anything since online content may be hacked aswell.



But enough, I grow weary of these ill founded arguments of your's and Zo's.


Fly_zo ran out of arguments long ago, he`s just spectating.Stalkervision`s only trolling as his posts do not fit any logical course of thoughts.The funny thing about it is that even though his crap post are thought to discourage those who do not agree with hackers because "it is inevitable,you can`t win blah blah blah", he keeps answering as if our resistance had any sense.

The fact is that the hackers couldn`t do without those supporting them.The people who have no respect to Oleg MAddox give them all the tools to continue.The motivation for the hackers to crack the BoB code was never as high as now.
The counterbalance to them consists of decent, well informed people that are perfectly able to think logically,realising the facts, connecting them with the past and probably future consequences.

So as much as they keep saying that we don`t mean a thing, they`re wrong.They are lots of uninformed poeple out there who are Oleg`s fans.

We can go on informing them here on these boards on what is happening and what grounds it has.Even as just few posts completely and logically denying arguments of hacker supporters, we`re doing a small but needed service to Oleg Maddox`s creation.
Because as I said before, none of them is able to give erguments we wouldn`t be able to "decompose" in 15seconds.

Jasonbirder`s legal argument is partly valid,as the courts of USA announced EULA as flawed law.Some precedents dealing with similar cases may appear aswell as the law may change in the future.So if you live in say Croatia, such judgements do not concern you.


And all for some cheesy hacked together virtual aircraft, which after a few months will be every bit as boring as the 300 odd aircraft we now have, and you still won't have offline fixed.

The joke is on you in the end.

That`s right, the kiddies will never be able to enjoy the game.Not because there is too few content but because their creativity is lacking.Whatever goods they get, after a week it`s still all the same.It was clear on from Forgotten Battles which was a gigantic sim itself, presenting unlimited gameplay.In time, the kiddies will dround in the sheer number and low quality of the hacks and forget the game, just as a child leaves a toy after playing with it for 10 minutes.


To think they had to destroy "IL2 Sturmovik" community to realise.




I say to the real IL2 community : DON`T GIVE UP, FIGHT`EM WHEN YOU CAN AND DON`T FORGET!

[ElAurens]

Thank you carguy_ for that.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5168/20040205image0150bi3.jpg

[stalkervision]

Carguy.." say to the real IL2 community : DON`T GIVE UP, FIGHT`EM WHEN YOU CAN AND DON`T FORGET!
_________________


Please ....You guys are all " trolling for trouble" You have zero and I mean zero interest in any compromises whatsoever..
:P

and we have the RPg... :D

[ElAurens]

Compromise in not an option.

[stalkervision]

Then you had better learn how to duck very quickly.. :)

actually your right now that I think of it. You have nothing whatsoever to compromise with.. :lol:

[robtek]

stalkervision, you are a poor, poor person!

robtek

[stalkervision]

stalkervision, you are a poor, poor person!

robtek

That may be but at least I don't whine like a little girl all the time about my favorite toy being broke.. :P :lol:

[ElAurens]

Finally, an admission of guilt.

You guys broke the toy.

No one else.


And don't you dare threaten me boy. There are very real legal remedies for that.

[fly_zo]

Finally, an admission of guilt.

You guys broke the toy.

No one else.


And don't you dare threaten me boy. There are very real legal remedies for that.

nope... we just keep on playing with "broken" toy ... while you're crying and bitching like spoiled child for two months now ... get over it ... play or don't play but you have no power to stop me from playing .

but pappa Oleg already making new toy for you ... so wipe your hypocrites tears off ......

[Abbeville-Boy]

why do hack guys have to treat oleg so bad, he has really give alot to us. don't talk here in his house talk at arcade so he don't have to see

[wgvette]

Hey All,
I have been enjoying (extreme sarcasm) the debate on this issue from the sideline for the past several weeks. It's hard to go to any forum and not be inundated with threads on this subject. (Four on this site alone).

Why do I bring this up? Well, from the sheer number of posts on the subject and the obvious deep rooted feelings on both sides of the issue this is not a subject that is going away...unfortunately.

So, maybe it's time that we took a few steps back and viewed this from fresh perspectives.

As to if or if not the sound mod was a legal or illegal addition to the game really is a moot point. Whether someone installs the sound mod is also irrelevant.

No the only problem that exists is when someone uses the mod to deliberately change an aspect of his/her aircraft capabilities for online play against unaltered opponents. Then and only then does one become a cheat and that is the crux of the matter. The unfortunate problem with this is we are dealing with human nature. There are those that will cheat just for the sake of doing so, there are some that will cheat because they can, and of course there are a few that will do it just to be malicious and hopefully hurt someone else by doing so.

No matter how hard the community pushes to prevent cheats from entering online play; there will be someone willing to work just as hard to break back in and cheat some more. Again I fall back to Human Nature as the real fight here.

And where does this leave us??

A compromise? Really and truly the only way to fight the problem is to combine efforts to police the servers and expel and deny cheaters when they are caught. Difficult to do I realize, and that is where a compromise is needed as it will take everyone from the modder, the onliner/offliner to the game developer to fight.

While Oleg and his crew have much bigger issues than IL-2 keeping them busy, their part of this fight will be in SOW:BOB and future games.

That my friends leaves us to handle the current and short term issues of fair play and the on going health of the IL-2 community.

So, the short end of this deal is that until all the name calling, finger pointing and schoolyard behavior ends; and a real dialog of communication is opened, then nothing, absolutely nothing will ever change.


WG

[Outlaw]

Why do you think that companies pay license fees to use other game engines (such as the Quake engine, UT engine, HL engine, Cry engine, etc.)? If the EULA was not enforceable they would just buy ONE copy of the game and mod/hack it to their hearts desire.

Licence fee's are paid because use of a substantial amount of code from one piece of software in another would be in breach of tradtional intellectual property and copywright laws they are nothing to do with EULAs at all.

OK, so the EULA is not tied to the license issue, HOWEVER, there is a law being broken (if license fees are not paid) and that's the point. Whether or not it's a EULA issue is irrelevant. The hack, to the best of my knowledge, redistributes the ENTIRE executable file and if that's not a "...substantial amount of code..." then I don't know what is. Even if the hack is/were just
a patch file it is still utilizing almost 100% of someone else's code.

[edit]
Obviously this is not a real issue b/c no one is going to go after anyone, BUT, it would be nice if the hackers would stop saying they have the right to do whatever they want to with the code and redistribute it at will.
[end edit

If I'm mistaken about the hack and what it redistributes, then I must acquiesce on this point.

--Outlaw.

[zapatista]

"sound mod" ? gimme a break !

lets just look at the behavior and actions of the people that use the hacked files and what this is about, emm because the people japping about it here are not programmers that are trying to improve the game, its spotty faced teens who who found a hack somewhere online and now try and pretend they are kool.

all this is about is a way to cheat online to make up for their otherwise poor performance on legitimate servers.

- do they have oleg's permission to alter the files and code, ...no ! so it is theft of property and illegal.
- will they openly reveal and own up they are using hacked files when they join legitimate online servers, ...no ! so they are liars
- will they selectively reduce the performance of some of the planes that are actually overmodeled in 1946 (like the jak-9 or i-16) and then fly those planes,..... nope, they will only increase the performance of planes they personally like and choose to fly,... so they cheat to get an advantage !
- is this file edit used exclusively to improve the game (new terrain textures, new ground objects, better visibility 190 cockpit,...), without allowing selective increased aircraft performance for frustrated teens who cant fly when they join servers online ? ... nope, whatever way they try and package their crap justifications, its all about cheating online.

so the people that use the hack and try and justify it lie, steal, and cheat.

dont waste your time trying to have a logical common sense argument with them, just ban the little jerks from all the legitimate forums and let them crawl back under the rock they came from where they can "mutually gratify themselves" while they play with their zits and pretend to be cool.

there is a full year to go before BoB is released, and oleg has stated he doesnt have the time or resources to keep fixing whatever these little vandals keep breaking, so say bye bye to il2's popularity online. all this will harm the flightsim community which is already small to start out with.

and to be rude enough to post that crap in this forum says it all. do you think this is what oleg has been doing all his hard work for ?

[Baron]

The more I think about this issue the more silly I realise it it. :) Here we have a mod community with all the power in the world to do whatever they want and 99.99% not using it but just asking for just a little respect from a community with no power whatsoever to change thing back the way they want them and that insults them time and time again and calls them cheats and liars. :)

sort of like a man holding a RPG to another man's head and the man with the RPG asking the other man just to try to be nice and not to insult him anymore! Then the man keeps right insulting him! :lol:


LoL, exactly.

And u don see where that logic fails, yes?, no?


U want honest players to be NICE to u and your kind because u can make things even worse?...Are u on drugs?


Rerspect for cheaters?...Now i know your delusional.


What i dont understand is why u are still able to post here......u and some of your friends should have been banned a long time ago.

[Bearcat]

........... :roll:

[stalkervision]

The more I think about this issue the more silly I realise it it. :) Here we have a mod community with all the power in the world to do whatever they want and 99.99% not using it but just asking for just a little respect from a community with no power whatsoever to change thing back the way they want them and that insults them time and time again and calls them cheats and liars. :)

sort of like a man holding a RPG to another man's head and the man with the RPG asking the other man just to try to be nice and not to insult him anymore! Then the man keeps right insulting him! :lol:


LoL, exactly.

And u don see where that logic fails, yes?, no?


U want honest players to be NICE to u and your kind because u can make things even worse?...Are u on drugs?


Rerspect for cheaters?...Now i know your delusional.


What i dont understand is why u are still able to post here......u and some of your friends should have been banned a long time ago.


You didn't get the anology or even the "logic" underpinning it underpants whatsoever did you? :roll: Not surprising..

As usual you troll us,insult us then whine and complain and then you guys get the worst of the argument after we reply to you. Then because you are exactly two years old you want me and my side to be silenced because you don't like our views so you can troll us and insult us a whole lot more. This time without the people you are insulting to defend their positions.

Boy, YOU ARE a real baby.. :roll:

[stalkervision]

Hey All,
I have been enjoying (extreme sarcasm) the debate on this issue from the sideline for the past several weeks. It's hard to go to any forum and not be inundated with threads on this subject. (Four on this site alone).

Why do I bring this up? Well, from the sheer number of posts on the subject and the obvious deep rooted feelings on both sides of the issue this is not a subject that is going away...unfortunately.

So, maybe it's time that we took a few steps back and viewed this from fresh perspectives.

As to if or if not the sound mod was a legal or illegal addition to the game really is a moot point. Whether someone installs the sound mod is also irrelevant.

No the only problem that exists is when someone uses the mod to deliberately change an aspect of his/her aircraft capabilities for online play against unaltered opponents. Then and only then does one become a cheat and that is the crux of the matter. The unfortunate problem with this is we are dealing with human nature. There are those that will cheat just for the sake of doing so, there are some that will cheat because they can, and of course there are a few that will do it just to be malicious and hopefully hurt someone else by doing so.

No matter how hard the community pushes to prevent cheats from entering online play; there will be someone willing to work just as hard to break back in and cheat some more. Again I fall back to Human Nature as the real fight here.

And where does this leave us??

A compromise? Really and truly the only way to fight the problem is to combine efforts to police the servers and expel and deny cheaters when they are caught. Difficult to do I realize, and that is where a compromise is needed as it will take everyone from the modder, the onliner/offliner to the game developer to fight.

While Oleg and his crew have much bigger issues than IL-2 keeping them busy, their part of this fight will be in SOW:BOB and future games.

That my friends leaves us to handle the current and short term issues of fair play and the on going health of the IL-2 community.

So, the short end of this deal is that until all the name calling, finger pointing and schoolyard behavior ends; and a real dialog of communication is opened, then nothing, absolutely nothing will ever change.


WG

Anyone would agree with this excellent logic one would think? Yet all we hear is "NO Compromise" and more insults! :?

[stalkervision]

People solving any disagreement take two parties doesn't it? As long as you non-modders insult and troll on the modder folk without the least willingness to compromise you have no right whatsoever to ask for anything from the modders. Especially the totally selfish position you all apparenty support!

[jasonbirder]

OK, so the EULA is not tied to the license issue, HOWEVER, there is a law being broken (if license fees are not paid) and that's the point. Whether or not it's a EULA issue is irrelevant. The hack, to the best of my knowledge, redistributes the ENTIRE executable file and if that's not a "...substantial amount of code..." then I don't know what is. Even if the hack is/were just
a patch file it is still utilizing almost 100% of someone else's code.

Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. The fair use doctrine, permits copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. This allows the user to reproduce or adapt copyright material for personal or private use without permission from the copyright owner.

[robtek]

Maybe a "lifelong ban if sighted" for every proven hacker would be a solution to this problem, tough a lot of work for the admins.
So, have a track running when you spot something cheesy, to prove it.
If the hacks (mods) are so harmless as some people say, nobody would get banned.

robtek :D

[stalkervision]

ban on-line game cheaters. I am all for it! Wouldn't bother me one bit... :)

[ElAurens]

u and some of your friends should have been banned a long time ago.

Agree 100%

[Outlaw]

Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. The fair use doctrine, permits copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. This allows the user to reproduce or adapt copyright material for personal or private use without permission from the copyright owner.

If, for the sake of argument, we disregard the EULA then the original hacker falls under the above protection which, IIRC, does not permit wholesale distribution, which is clearly the case here.

I do believe there is a provision for limited distribution for educational purposes but that clearly does not apply in this case.

--Outlaw.

[jasonbirder]

I do believe there is a provision for limited distribution for educational purposes but that clearly does not apply in this case.

There is no breach of copyright as both parties already hold a legitimate copy of the file in question.

[Billfish]

Rediculous......no company EVER gives up the rights to any product they develop, ever. Nor should they, it's their work the end. So why does this group from the hack community keep posting as though trying to get Maddox Games to give up their rights to their own product?

In the end Maddox Games will not, as they should not.....and the hackers will continue to utilize, alter and distribute Ubisoft/1C/Maddox Games product without consent....and all the hammering at it will not change Maddox Games mind (as it's like some child asking 100x in an hour for a cookie they've been told they can't have).......In this case Maddox Games has given their answer in simply not responding....

No............So give it up, the activities of the hackers will not be legitimate till they make their own "original" product, not alter Maddox Games.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

Rediculous......no company EVER gives up the rights to any product they develop, ever. Nor should they, it's their work the end. So why does this group from the hack community keep posting as though trying to get Maddox Games to give up their rights to their own product?

In the end Maddox Games will not, as they should not.....and the hackers will continue to utilize, alter and distribute Ubisoft/1C/Maddox Games product without consent....and all the hammering at it will not change Maddox Games mind (as it's like some child asking 100x in an hour for a cookie they've been told they can't have).......In this case Maddox Games has given their answer in simply not responding....

No............So give it up, the activities of the hackers will not be legitimate till they make their own "original" product, not alter Maddox Games.

hacking/modding of games (dependant on the posters view though) did give more then a few people an entrance into the game industry. so I'm agreeing with you there, Billfish. Just too bad it had to be IL2. After the release of SOW I could understand it, but not now.

[mmitch10]

There is no breach of copyright as both parties already hold a legitimate copy of the file in question.

Nah, fair use only applies in certain specific circumstances, that don't apply here (study, literary criticism etc.), and owning a disk with the code on it, even when legitimately purchased, does not mean you own the copyright in the code. If I buy a film on DVD it doesn't mean I own the copyright in the film. It means I own a disk with the film on it. Same with software.

If the hack uses portions of the developer's code then chances are it infringes copyright, unlkess it uses insignificant parts of the code.

[SlipBall]

Nobody is permitted to open locked code, be sure

[fly_zo]

he, he ..... Ubi is sooo boring lately that all hardcore flammers moved in here .... great, the more the merrier ... One thing though Evgeny is a great guy so your protection from Ubi moderators wont work here .

and in all this time you didn't manage to find single new argument ....

as i said first level of Invaders all over again .... boring

[ElAurens]

Zo, neither you, nor any member of the hacker diaspora, have ever posted one legitimate argument for hacking the sim. Not one.

You and your kind are on shaky legal ground, and absolutely have no moral underpinnings for what you are doing.

You are wrong plain and simple. We don't need any other "argument" than that.

And what protection would I ever need from UBI moderators?

[robtek]

@ElAurens

i´ll drink to that!! :-D

robtek

[sparty72]

So far in this long thread i've seen lots of name calling, b*ichin, anger even h*te ( its how it seems)..there have been good arguments..poor arguments, attempts at adult discussion and plain old childishness..its like watchin a cheap American soap opera with the pouting and stares of intimidation and stamping of feet! ( sounds like my ex ) anyhow....enough already the bottles open and the genie is out... NO amount of name calling and threats is gonna change that, no threats of ( I'm gonna get ya for this) makes a slight bit of difference ( except to make me laff),theres an old welsh saying " it's easy to be brave behind castle walls" if people feel there is a legal recourse to this issue get on with it already!!..i have a lot of respect for a lot of posters on both sides...but to be honest..some of you are getting tiresome with the same answers. I'd like to think that some of you reading this will think on and p'haps a change will occur in how this is tackled.. but i think not.. its like watchin a yappie little dog giving itself a sore throat cus it dont like the postman.. so.. to end my rant.... Evgeny ..Kudos m8!..Oleg ..thanks for the hard work..Billfish..thanks for the inteligent arguments...Flyzo..great work m8..holdin back the wolves.........

Best Regards

Sparty

[123-Wulf-123]

You Hackers and your apologists are funny guys, you try to make all these statements like Sparty here attempting to place himself as a moderate(ill disguised) and thus somehow claim the moral ground.

The problem you have, is that you have no moral grounds for any of your statements.

Most right thinking, law abiding, decent people will never put any credence on a word you say, nor take you seriously.

Every word you utter will always be scrutinised with the background thought that you are a hacker and thus not to be trusted.

So make as many blustering statements as you all like, try to ridicule non-hackers, try to convince yourselves(and fail), that you have done nothing wrong, try to conveniently forget who is in the wrong as much as you like, try to insinuate that the majority of the legal community is somehow wrong, YOU IS STILL WRONG ...be sure.




"a thief will always find another thief to admire him................" with apologies to FT.

[sparty72]

You Hackers are funny guys, you try to make all these statements like Sparty here attempting to place himself as a moderate(ill disguised) and thus somehow claim the moral ground.

moral ground..... who decides the high ground?..you?..get real

The problem you have, is that you have no moral grounds for any of your statements.

I don't need YOUR moral grounds to make a statement.. you just dont like that i had the
temerity to speak!

Most right thinking, law abiding, decent people will never put any credence on a word you say, nor take you seriously.

Law abiding!.... is that when you dont mug or murder or b an arsonist!..how about drink
drive etc..... to me those are laws to abide by

Every word you utter will always be scrutinised with the background thought that you are a hacker and thus not to be trusted.

You get me wrong.............I dont hack..i DONT KNOW HOW to hack..my statement if
properly scrutinized is saying ( in plain English).... what a bunch of mard arse winning
children there are here B*tchin about a game (thast on both sides)..and yes its a game
installed on your home pc/laptop to switch on and off as you feel fit....seems to me all
you people want is a fight..all i tried to do is put it in a civil way..call me a hacker ( again
i dont know how)... call me what you like ....just words... words...words.... get the drift
as for trusting me..... ha haha...trust me..dont trust me...get the idea.. i stand by what
people REALLY know of me..of which you know so little and dont call me a hacker..its
so sooo SOOOOOOOOOOO tiresome


So make as many blustering statements as you all like, try to ridicule non-hackers, try to convince yourselves(and fail), that you have done nothing wrong, try to conveniently forget who is in the wrong as much as you like, try to insinuate that the majority of the legal community is somehow wrong, YOU IS STILL WRONG ...be sure.

Bluster..wheres the bluster..how many pages of tripe n hot air is this thread? how many posts are from me?.. again there's no ridicule.. just how it looks to 99% of the people NOT posting in this thread... btw..what exactly is it iv'e forgotten..who did i state is in the wrong?.... so I am wrong ..wrong wrong...seems like thats the Mantra these days.. ( I'm right..your'e wrong..nah nah naah NAH NAH nahhhhhhhhhhh)..get over yourself ya big Jessie......


"a thief will always find another thief to admire him................" with apologies to your FT.

and your qoute ...lmao..good find that..christmas cracker or corn flake packet...you should read mine at the zoo?.. infact i'l save you the trouble..ahem "clears throat"

" You are entitled to your opinion, I have listened patiently, Now pi$$ off and bore somebody else!

Best Rega ..nah who cares

Sparty

[sparty72]

oooh I just thought 123-Wulf-123..if you know me as a hacker from 2 posts..you must have seen me posting at the unmentionable site eh!... how you enjoying them?!..like the new work?!

[kristorf]

Mark,
deep breaths, remember what your shrink said mate.

This thread has really run its course now, repetative posts and bickering.
Could we move onto something else please because we are all getting older......

[123-Wulf-123]

and your qoute ...lmao..good find that..christmas cracker or corn flake packet...you should read mine at the zoo?.. infact i'l save you the trouble..ahem "clears throat"

" You are entitled to your opinion, I have listened patiently, Now pi$$ off and bore somebody else!

Best Rega ..nah who cares

Sparty


strike a nerve did I?? .......The mask slips so easily Sparty.



As El Aurens has already said you have NO valid arguments therefore you attack anyone who has the bottle to call you for what you are.

[123-Wulf-123]

oooh I just thought 123-Wulf-123..if you know me as a hacker from 2 posts..you must have seen me posting at the unmentionable site eh!... how you enjoying them?!..like the new work?!


Don't flatter yourself m8, your posts are so transparently pro-hacker that a five year old could see through them.

[sparty72]

A friend just gave me this thought to post.. he wont post here cus he cant be bothered to get involved and to b honest ..i dont blame him

so for my 4th post in 1 day ALL in the same thread...( wow )

The rules are the rules because we (humans) say they are.
Man has been really good at creating and laying down the law for his own ends.
Some play by the rules, some don’t. The law becomes ineffective and antiquated when more people appose the law than are for it. So the law changes and that is human nature.

Get with the program guys, the human race is at the top of the food chain not only because we are good at ****ing everything else over for a profit and better lifestyle, but we are even better at ****ing each other over for the same reason.

i bid you good day till next time..you see i have a life that needs my attention..So please refrain smoking and make sure all trays are in the stowed position..(hopefully) this thead will be landing on planet Earth shortly

[sparty72]

Don't flatter yourself m8, your posts are so transparently pro-hacker that a five year old could see through them.


I get all my flattery from you m8..cheers bud :D:D..i also dont wear masks anymore m8....what u c is what u get.... and Finally. ..i really must go..... not had this much fun in ages!..i'l be out after the cartoons to play with ya m8 if ma mum lets me out.. i got some pocket money as well shall we go to the sweet shop and gets gummy bears?!.. cheers m8..tis been fun :D:D

[Baron]

Think the best thing for all non hackers would be to just ignore everything that has anything to do with hacks/hackers in the future.

They clearly thrive on it and are having the time of thire life (as sad as it may sound)


All we should do is PM a moderator or UBI or Maddox or what ever everytime the topic comes up.

We can designate ( maby the first replier for simplicity ) someone who just once politly ask them to take it elsewhere, thats it, nothing more.

If they dont get any feedback, whatever it may be..they will get bored (like with everythingelse in theire life ) and move on.

[robtek]

i couldn´t have said it better.

robtek

[sparty72]

Think the best thing for all non hackers would be to just ignore everything that has anything to do with hacks/hackers in the future.

They clearly thrive on it and are having the time of thire life (as sad as it may sound)


All we should do is PM a moderator or UBI or Maddox or what ever everytime the topic comes up.

We can designate ( maby the first replier for simplicity ) someone who just once politly ask them to take it elsewhere, thats it, nothing more.

If they dont get any feedback, whatever it may be..they will get bored (like with everythingelse in theire life ) and move on.


my point but MORE to the point b4 it got twisted! lol!!

Regards

Sparty

[123-Wulf-123]

They say that a beaten man should always know when to run..... ;)

[sparty72]

They say that a beaten man should always know when to run..... ;)



i'm right behind youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!

[kristorf]

i'm right behind youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!

Run Forrest, run

[stalkervision]

There is no use to fight on either side anymore. Mods are a fact of life now. Modders will never listen to non-modders and vis versa about changing back. The mentally intrenched non-mods will just have to get one big steam shovel and dig themselves out of their own self dug Grand Canyon and finally realise it. The modders have to quite bringing olive branches to people who could care less about finding any middle ground whatsoever. Every time you ask for a truce to discuss things the flag is shot right out of your hands. The non-mods are like the British at Yorktown in the Revolutionary war. Surrounded by the "rebels" with your "outworks" being overrun one by one but not yet willing to discuss the terms of surrender yet...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bf/Redoubt_No._10.jpg/200px-Redoubt_No._10.jpg

[Baron]

Take it some where else please.

Thank u.

[GF_Mastiff]

just found out there a cockpit replacement for wonder-woman view and you can put it in a full switch server and nobody know the difference?

[BSS_Sniper]

just found out there a cockpit replacement for wonder-woman view and you can put it in a full switch server and nobody know the difference?

I hope not. At least from what I know from looking in at AAA they wouldn't allow anything of the kind.

[stalkervision]

I hope not. At least from what I know from looking in at AAA they wouldn't allow anything of the kind.

What, I thought they were all monsters and liars?

[stalkervision]

Take it some where else please.

Thank u.

Maybe you should follow your own advice underpants? Don't like this discussion then just leave... PLEASE!

Thank YOU...

[stalkervision]

Hay maybe we can freely talk over at Ubi-zo! Nope apparently not. Go back to your ubi-zo cave underpants...

[robtek]

I see it this way,

the modders thought they would do something great, an improvement and then they would be loved by everybody, or so.
In real live they fabricated an hack with some cosmetic improvements for the game and opened the box of pandora.
Now they know what they have done, nobody loves them and everybody yells at them.
But even if hell would freeze over they can´t admit to have started to destroy online-gaming. They are not even able to limit the hack to offline gaming where it would be harmless.
In short, they are human like we all. And not everybody is able to admit his errors.

robtek

[ElAurens]

I hope not. At least from what I know from looking in at AAA they wouldn't allow anything of the kind.

The folks at AAA have no power to stop any of the less honorable users of the hack from doing anything they want.

That is the saddest thing about this whole affair. They wanted to help the community, and I do believe that was what they were thinking, but instead they created a monster they had no power to control.

There are lots of people that are using the sound hack and the hacked AI aircraft and not hurting anyone, however, there are numbers of people using the hack to do nefarious things online. It is happening. And that is why I, and many others, are so upset.

[stalkervision]

you guys keep attack those poor souls at those forums but in reality they are the least of your worry don't you know?

[msalama]

Eh... and what about folks like me who want to keep it vanilla because we want to build missions according to a standard? And at the same time want to keep the online play fair?

Where do we come in?

[stalkervision]

Eh... and what about folks like me who want to keep it vanilla because we want to build missions according to a standard? And at the same time want to keep the online play fair?

Where do we come in?

If you don't whine,attack or complain we'll see what we can do for you buddy...

[carguy_]

You Hackers and your apologists are funny guys, you try to make all these statements like Sparty here attempting to place himself as a moderate(ill disguised) and thus somehow claim the moral ground.

There is no way to claim moral ground on an immoral deed in this case.Like I said few posts ago, the mod supporters might get just about 100 more of their ill-minded fans attacking us, this will change nothing.



The problem you have, is that you have no moral grounds for any of your statements.

Thus no new arguments are needed.Fly_zo ultimately buried his credibility with his comment.Only the legal arument has been proven partly wrong.Besides that, no one of you hackers ever posted anything worth a discussion.


Most right thinking, law abiding, decent people will never put any credence on a word you say, nor take you seriously.
Every word you utter will always be scrutinised with the background thought that you are a hacker and thus not to be trusted.


Right, there can be no trust for people who would twist any logic to get their kiddy desires
fulfilled.




So make as many blustering statements as you all like, try to ridicule non-hackers, try to convince yourselves(and fail), that you have done nothing wrong, try to conveniently forget who is in the wrong as much as you like, try to insinuate that the majority of the legal community is somehow wrong, YOU IS STILL WRONG ...be sure.

No problem, we`re just going to post the same arguments over and over until they give up.Their only way to "win" is to intimidate, silence us.
Besides Jasonbirder`s posts not one of them ever made me think a second thought.

[robtek]

If you don't whine,attack or complain we'll see what we can do for you buddy...

As everybody can see you only have to be a modder-fan and you have no problems.

Who cares about free will, free press, free expression of opinions and all this obsolete stuff of the free world?

There are and there have been places where everybody had to knuckle under a few bullys.
those places were and are not a desirable place to be.

robtek

[stalkervision]

As everybody can see you only have to be a modder-fan and you have no problems.

Who cares about free will, free press, free expression of opinions and all this obsolete stuff of the free world?

There are and there have been places where everybody had to knuckle under a few bullys.
those places were and are not a desirable place to be.

robtek


My impression is that it's the other way around. I have never heard anyone say non-modders were bad except when they attack the mod community and called them cheats and liars.

[robtek]

My impression is that it's the other way around. I have never heard anyone say non-modders were bad except when they attack the mod community and called them cheats and liars.

Exactly!!!!!

Thats because non-modders haven´t done anything to offend anyone!!!!

But then the modders started to ruin online-gaming!!!

Now the modders are complaining about the people who want to have a fair online-game.

You, the hackers (modders) opened pandoras box!!

And now you are surprised that not everybody loves it???

You are called liars and cheaters because cheating has happened and people lie if they say the hacks wont be used for that.

robtek

[Bearcat]

When is this going to stop? All the back and forth nonsense.... GET OVER IT!! The sim has been hacked.. either use it or don't.. but all this BS will not change anything... If any of you know how to relock the sim or if Oleg plans to do it great!!! In the meantime however this back and forth nonsense is just too darned much for me.... because it changes absolutely nothing. The sim is still hacked... and all you guys are doing is hammering the wedge in deeper and deeper... It isn't about "letting the hackers win" .... if there is a winner or looser at this point in time then they already won once the sim was hacked and Oleg said he had neither the manpower or the time to deal with it... whether or not it is a temporary victory only time will tell.. but what pray tell will any of you do? NOTHING... because there is nothing you can do except continue to get your drawers in knot on forums across the net about this.... and that to me is just a waste of time... Id rather be flying or reading....

All this round robin has been going on for what.... @ 3 months now... maybe longer? Pfft... grow up .... all of you and get over it because all this childish cr@p wont change a d@mn thing. Either use the hacks or don't as your conscience dictates.. but enough if the whining and cryiong like a bunch of 3 year olds.. for crying out loud... I can't believe sometimes that some of you guys are grown men.

[stalkervision]

When is this going to stop? All the back and forth nonsense.... GET OVER IT!! The sim has been hacked.. either use it or don't.. but all this BS will not change anything... If any of you know how to relock the sim or if Oleg plans to do it great!!! In the meantime however this back and forth nonsense is just too darned much for me.... because it changes absolutely nothing. The sim is still hacked... and all you guys are doing is hammering the wedge in deeper and deeper... It isn't about "letting the hackers win" .... if there is a winner or looser at this point in time then they already won once the sim was hacked and Oleg said he had neither the manpower or the time to deal with it... whether or not it is a temporary victory only time will tell.. but what pray tell will any of you do? NOTHING... because there is nothing you can do except continue to get your drawers in knot on forums across the net about this.... and that to me is just a waste of time... Id rather be flying or reading....

All this round robin has been going on for what.... @ 3 months now... maybe longer? Pfft... grow up .... all of you and get over it because all this childish cr@p wont change a d@mn thing. Either use the hacks or don't as your conscience dictates.. but enough if the whining and cryiong like a bunch of 3 year olds.. for crying out loud... I can't believe sometimes that some of you guys are grown men.


I totally agree....

[DuxCorvan]

http://www.netzeitung.de/img/0088/166288.jpg