Clouds online - no sync (?)

[dimlee]

There is always something new to learn.

I just have discovered that clouds are not synchronised in online session. Therefore, when that nasty Bf-109 spots my lonely SB-2 and I try to hide in a cloud...it doesn't help. I'm just blinded for awhile but Bf-109's human pilot can see me.
See discussion and explanation given by Storebror here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,54037.msg587913.html#msg587913
Key quote:
"The thing about clouds is that hiding inside clouds only works offline.
Online "your" clouds aren't "other's" clouds, including AI.
Where you hide inside clouds there's bright blue sky for others and vice versa."

And I used to hide in the clouds online on regular basis in past in a bomber or when damaged. It seemed to be as useful as just to bury my head in the sand. :rolleyes:

Since Storebror considers this issue to be out of reach for modding community...
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,54037.msg588533.html#msg588533
Is there something that TD team can do? Any chance of clouds sync online?

[Janosch]

I have seen human pilots succesfully use clouds to their advantage, and I've seen them give up their chase when I've hidden myself in the clouds. The only issue with online clouds I can think of is when the when the distance between clouds and the player gets too long. It might cause the clouds to flicker in and out of existence, but usually the distance is so big that you wouldn't see the enemy dot anyway.

I wouldn't put too much value on some random guy's post on a modding forum. It's the same as divining the future of mankind from a toilet.

[dimlee]

I have seen human pilots succesfully use clouds to their advantage, and I've seen them give up their chase when I've hidden myself in the clouds. The only issue with online clouds I can think of is when the when the distance between clouds and the player gets too long. It might cause the clouds to flicker in and out of existence, but usually the distance is so big that you wouldn't see the enemy dot anyway.

I wouldn't put too much value on some random guy's post on a modding forum. It's the same as divining the future of mankind from a toilet.

Agree about flickering, I have observed that effect.

As for the rest...
I'd like to make several experiments online to verify Storebror's conclusions but he is not "some random guy" in this business.

[sniperton]

I guess it would be more precise to say "Where you hide inside clouds there may be bright blue sky for others and vice versa". If the cloud pattern is generated locally and randomly by each client, a 1/10 cloud coverage is very likely to differ from client to client to the pattern of:

OOXOO
OOOOO

vs.

OOOOO
OXOOO

Your chance of being visible is 10 to 1 in this case. When the cloud cover is 5/10, you have, on the contrary, a 50% chance that both you and your enemy see a cloud at the same spot. Although you can never be sure that hiding in clouds works online, it might work with increasing chance as there are more clouds on the sky. Just a speculation.

[Tolwyn]

Couple things.

Clouds are actual objects tied to the map itself.

Server must enable Clouds in the Misc. Difficulty section (and client should as well).

And server should have typeclouds=1 in their conf.ini


TypeClouds=0 - standard clouds
TypeClouds=1 - improved quality clouds


I also believe checkruntime=1 (or maybe 2) is required.

I've noticed that I can have simple clouds on when others can have the more comprehensive clouds in the same game.

[dimlee]

I guess it would be more precise to say "Where you hide inside clouds there may be bright blue sky for others and vice versa". If the cloud pattern is generated locally and randomly by each client, a 1/10 cloud coverage is very likely to differ from client to client to the pattern of:

OOXOO
OOOOO

vs.

OOOOO
OXOOO

Your chance of being visible is 10 to 1 in this case. When the cloud cover is 5/10, you have, on the contrary, a 50% chance that both you and your enemy see a cloud at the same spot. Although you can never be sure that hiding in clouds works online, it might work with increasing chance as there are more clouds on the sky. Just a speculation.

Interesting suggestion, thanks.

[sniperton]

You should also add the possibility that You hide in a cloud where your Enemy sees blue sky, but his cloud (X) is blocking his line of sight to the pattern of

OYXEO

[dimlee]

You should also add the possibility that You hide in a cloud where your Enemy sees blue sky, but his cloud (X) is blocking his line of sight to the pattern of

OYXEO

Your explanation is elegant, indeed.
Yet until people who can see in the game code will explain, we probably can just theorise. Or to experiment online to gather practical evidence. I''m going to look through my old track records to check how adversaries reacted when I have been in the clouds.

[sniperton]

Yet until people who can see in the game code will explain, we probably can just theorise.

Sure, my explanation is pure maths. I don't even know whether clouds are static or move with the wind, and whether they are generated at once on mission start, or dynamically in run-time.

[Tolwyn]

Um.
They are static objects tied to the map. (Did no one read my post above?)

Sure, my explanation is pure maths. I don't even know whether clouds are static or move with the wind, and whether they are generated at once on mission start, or dynamically in run-time.

[sniperton]

I did. It seems clear that clouds are generated on a "one cloud / one tile" basis according to the CloudType (density) and CloudHeight properties specified by the mission designer. What is not clear is how and when they are created and why they are not synchronized online. TypeClouds only affects their visual appearance, not their density or exact position.

[idefix44]

Hi,

Here are some screenshots (10).
Me (idefix44) and my mate (crapouillot) played online several missions via HyperLobby.
The host is the stock Dedicated Server 4.13.3m.
The clients are the stock IL2 1946 4.13.3m.
We used TeamSpeak to synchronise the screenshots and the result is that we have the same clouds...

[sniperton]

1. Someone who've seen the code said there's no synchronization between clients.
2. Your evidence seems to support the opposite.
3. I don't fly online, just tried to explain what's on.
4. I'll watch with attention whatever this discussion will evolve to.
:)

[sniperton]

Hi Alpha, just to clarify, 'cause there's a slight misunderstanding here I guess.
Dimlee's question related to the exact position of the individual clouds randomly generated/created by the client application according to the mission settings transferred from the server. Only the cloud density/type ('clear', 'hazy', 'poor', etc.) and the cloud height are specified there in the mis file, not the exact spots where clouds should appear on the map (at the specified altitude). There's no such thing as a 'cloud map' synchronized between server and client, correct? Player A and Player B should see the same amount of clouds nearby, but dispersed in a different way. Online players should be clear about that hiding in clouds may not work as it does offline. I simply tried to speculate how much chance they have when they still attempt to do so :roll:

[dimlee]

Dimlee's question related to the exact position of the individual clouds randomly generated/created by the client application according to the mission settings transferred from the server.



Right. This is exactly what I try to find out.

[dimlee]

Hi,

Here are some screenshots (10).
Me (idefix44) and my mate (crapouillot) played online several missions via HyperLobby.
The host is the stock Dedicated Server 4.13.3m.
The clients are the stock IL2 1946 4.13.3m.
We used TeamSpeak to synchronise the screenshots and the result is that we have the same clouds...

Thanks. It's hard to judge based on screenshots only but I assume that you made some observations in flight as well.

[idefix44]

Look the 2 grab0001s.
It can't be more clear, I think...

[dimlee]

I have found at least 3 tracks of online encounters where I was chased by enemy fighter(s) in the clouds. Human pilots, not AI.

https://www.mediafire.com/?nhz92xu9svj3edy
(please note readme file)

When I watch these track records I see that in majority of cases the enemy fighter does not follow my aircraft in the cloud. He either climbs or go around, sometimes below. And when he does follow me, he does not shoot. Yet Bf-110 gunner can spot the enemy in any visibility - guter soldat, ja! :grin:
Sometimes, as it's seen in SBD vs Bf109 encounter the enemy fighter does not open fire when both of us are in clear blue skies.

My initial conclusions:
1. Clouds sync online DOES exist in some form.
2. Sync is not perfect, probably. "My" clouds and "his" clouds do not match meter to meter. I assume there is some margin error.

Three tracks do not make the representative sample, of course. But at least I know that my "hide and seek" tactic was not pointless ;)

In my opinion, Sniperton's Theory is credible.

[stovak]

With clouds being objects tied to the map, there is no need for cloud-syncing any more than there is for bridges or roads. Everybody should see the same results as set by the host.

Having said that, take a look at grab0002 from idefix44's shots. There is a large patch of missing clouds on the right of crapouillot's view so what's going on there I wonder, a sudden cut-off with the view distance?

[idefix44]

"a sudden cut-off with the view distance?"

Possible. It happends for me sometime with a few clouds far away (good weather).
And crapouillot's hardware (the bottom picture) is better than mine...

Guys, crapouillot and me are playing at least 2/3 missions per day. I'm 90% the leader. When I am flying to a big cloud (on our server, weather go from clear to poor) my wingman see it too... (we use the clouds to locate unidentified contacts, putting a cloud at the center of an virtual clock): "Second little cloud near the big one on the right at 3 o'clock. The contact is in it's five o'clock"...