ki-45 otsu armament

[shelby]

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=490
This site says tha the otsu has one 20 mm cannon in the nose, one 37 mm in the fuselage and one 7,92 mm in the rear cockipt. Is this true?
i also find this conversation about the ki45 armament
http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/ki45.htm
Who says the truth?

[Pursuivant]

I'd go with J-aircraft, since that forum has some serious Japanese aircraft geeks, and the posts cite high quality reference books as sources. Additionally, some of the posts are from people who have written books on the weapons and aircraft in question.

The Military Factory site doesn't offer any reference materials as sources, so it is inherently unreliable.

But, it appears that the Ki-45 was fitted with a variety of different weapons. Just because the J-aircraft forum is better sourced doesn't mean that it's a complete discussion of the topic! So, both sites could be right.

Rene Francillon's "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" has the following info, but it's a bit dated:

Edit:

Ki-45 KAIa heavy fighter/strike fighter - 2 x 12.7 mm Type 1 MG in nose, 1 x 20 mm (Ho-3) cannon in ventral tunnel, 1 x flexible rear-mounted 7.9mm Type 98 machine gun.

Ki-45 KAIa - Experimental/Field Mod Night Fighter - 2 x 12.7mm Type 1 MG in nose, 1 x 20mm (Ho-3) cannon in ventral tunnel, 2 x 12.7 mm Type 1 MG or 2 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon in oblique mount. No tail gun.

Ki-45 KAIb - Heavy fighter/strike fighter - Late production aircraft had uprated engines (Ha-102). 20mm (Ho-3) nose, 37mm Type 98 ) ventral tunnel, 7.92mm (Type 98 ) flexible rear gun

Ki-45 KAIb - Experimental/Field Mod Night Fighter - As above but 2 x 12.7mm Type 1 (Ho-103) MG mounted obliquely upward. Fuselage gas tank removed.

Ki-45 KAIc - Night Fighter - Ha-102 engines, 37mm Ho-203 cannon in ventral tunnel, 2 x mounted obliquely upward 20 mm Ho-5 cannon. 1 x flexible rear-mounted 7.9mm Type 98 machine gun. No armanent in nose because centimetric radar in plexiglass nose was to be mounted there, but few were actually equipped. No rear MG on late production aircraft.

Ki-45 KAId - Anti-Shipping - 2 x 20mm (Ho-5) nose, 37 mm (Ho-203) ventral tunnel, 7.92mm (Type 98 ) flexible rear gun on early versions, not retained on later production.

Ki-45-II projected development. 1,500 HP Mitsubishi Ha-112-II engines = redesignated Ki-96.

[shelby]

https://www.scribd.com/document/148752556/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-21-Kawasaki-Ki-45-Toryu-Army-Type-2-Two-Seat-Fighter

[Pursuivant]

If you speak Japanese, that's a great book. Even if you don't the drawings and pictures are useful.

As with any aircraft, there is lots of technical information in the maker's native language which hasn't been translated.

[shelby]

i just try to find the otsu armament :)

[major.kudo]

https://www.scribd.com/document/148752556/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-21-Kawasaki-Ki-45-Toryu-Army-Type-2-Two-Seat-Fighter

...Is this site copyright problem all right?
For now.
I possess the this book. And I'm Japanese.
But my English is doubtful. It's doubtful whether the contents are transmitted through me.



Ki-45kai "Ko"

2 x Ho-103 12.7mm machinegun
1 x Ho-3 20mm machinegun

Roundness nose.

--

Ki-45kai "Otsu"

2 x Ho-103 12.7mm machinegun
1 x Type94 37mm tank main gun

Modified from "Ko"
Only a little extended Roundness nose. Landing light removed from nose.

--

Ki-45kai "Hei"

1 x Ho-203 auto cannon
1 x Ho-3 20mm machinegun

Added 37mm cannon on nose.
sharp nose. And 37mm Barrels is stored inside nose.
Landing light added to wing.
Early models of "Hei" has roundness nose and 37mm Barrels muzzle is
protrudes from nose. Produced only 65?

--

Ki-45kai "Tei"

1 x Ho-203 auto cannon
and
2 x Ho-5 20mm machinegun (Upper gun, Early models are 2 x Ho-103)

Modified from "Hei"
Add Upper gun (Jazz) and remove Ho-3, remove rear defence gun.
Usually this type is not carrying defence gun.
But also equipped pictures exist.
When upper gun removed and reloading Ho-3, it'll be "Hei".

--

Additionally, the exceptional model which doesn't know the name.

"Hei" equipped Type94 37mm tank gun on nose. Produced only 10?
"Hei" equipped Ho-204 37mm auto cannon on nose. Produced only 1.
"Hei" equipped Ho-402 57mm auto cannon on nose. Produced only 1.
Upper gun added "Ko" model. What this name?

For "Special squadron" version modified from "Hei"
Removed all guns and all gun sights.
Crew is only pilot. Weapon is body.

[shelby]

...Is this site copyright problem all right?yes

[Pursuivant]

Thanks for the translation Major.Kudo!

It's good enough English that I can understand the variants.

"Jazz" was presumably the Japanese translation of the German term "Schräge Musik" which also translates to English as "Jazz." So, one or more cannons mounted upwards and forwards to attack bombers from below.

[shelby]

http://www.filedropper.com/133100894-ki-45-toryu
i find also this one i hope major.kudo's help

[major.kudo]

I forgot to tell.
Ki-45Kai has each one hardpoint under the main wings.
These could suspend propellant tank, or the cluster bomb called "TA munition" could be loaded.

https://www.scribd.com/document/148752556/Bunrindo-Famous-Airplanes-of-the-World-21-Kawasaki-Ki-45-Toryu-Army-Type-2-Two-Seat-Fighter

In P.46 a picture of the middle is that.
Plane is "Hei" model.

"TA munition" was also dropped on heavy bombers formation.
But even Veterans seems to have been difficult to make them hit.

[major.kudo]

I made a picture.

[shelby]

thanks major for the explanation

[Pursuivant]

I forgot to tell.
Ki-45Kai has each one hardpoint under the main wings.
These could suspend propellant tank, or the cluster bomb called "TA munition" could be loaded.

The hard points could also be used to carry conventional (up to 250 kg each) bombs.

All but the night fighter version of the Otsu, and late versions of the Tei, also carried flexible, rear-firing 7.9 mm Type 98 machine gun.

Some later factory-built Night Fighter versions (Hei according to Major.Kudo's diagram, possibly described as late Otsu in other books) didn't have nose guns because it was intended that radar be mounted there. But only a few were equipped with it.

There were a number of field mods that aren't specifically described in the Francillon book, so I guess that the Toryu could carry just about any suitable gun in the IJAF arsenal.

There is also confusion between what counts as the "Otsu" vs. "Hei" versions. Older Western sources sometimes mistake Otsu for Hei or Tei versions, or substitute a Latin letter for the appropriate Japanese character when indicating production block. I'd trust the Bunrindo book over Francillon.

a = ko
b = otsu
c = hei
d = tei
improved = kai

[shelby]

Did some planes of the ko and otsu versions have machine guns in the roof?

[major.kudo]

Did some planes of the ko and otsu versions have machine guns in the roof?

Upper gun was distributed and Attached by the conversion kit called "Tei Equipment".
When this was Attached in the "Hei" of existence, that was "Tei".
Conversion kit isn't used and it's said that there was also a produced plane as "Tei" from the beginning.

Maybe "Tei Equipment" distribution was performed after "Hei" becomes general.
However, at least one picture of "Ko" with Upper gun is exists.
But guns are Ho-103.
I have never seen a picture of the "Otsu" with Upper gun.

Only 10 planes of "Tei" equipped with "TaKi-4" radar was produced.
Pursuivant also says it too, a nose of a plane becomes glazed and there not have nose gun.

[Pursuivant]

Like Major.Kudo says.

FWIW, Francillon says that an unspecified number of Ki-45 (probably of what he calls the Ki-45KAIb block) were field modified to carry oblique firing cannons. That's the field modified nightfighter version in my chart.

The conversion proved successful, so some or all of the next production block were built as night fighters.

The next block after that was built as an anti-shipping version, but some were also fitted as night fighters.

If you've trying to create night fighter variant of the Ki-45, I think that you've got five options:

Field modified Ki-45 Ko (possibly Otsu), possibly with rear MG
Ki-45 Hei early with 2 x Ho-103 cannon, possibly with rear MG
Ki-45 Hei late with 2 x Ho-5 20mm cannon, no rear MG
Ki-45 Tei (modified from Hei) as Tei, but no nose guns, 2 x Ho-5 20 mm cannon in oblique mount.
Ki-45 Tei (modified from Hei) as above, but TaKi-4 centimetric radar installed in nose.

Of the list above, I think that the "definitive" Ki-45 night fighter version would probably be the Ki-45 Hei late production block, without radar.

But, my understanding is that there were many field mods to the Ki-45 since it was such a versatile aircraft, and because isolated IJAF units had to improvise. So, any night fighter variant of what IL2 calls the Otsu, with 2 oblique-mounted Ho-103 or Ho-105 cannons, will probably be realistic, or at least "realistic enough."

[shelby]

yes but i think all the night fighters variants remained on paper because the j1n was produced

[major.kudo]

I correct one mistake.


Additionally, the exceptional model which doesn't know the name.

"Hei" equipped Type94 37mm tank gun on nose. Produced only 10?


Gun was Type98 37mm anti tank gun.
Type98 37mm is also call "Ho-202".
I thought and noticed it's impossible to equipped Type94 37mm onto nose structurally.
Therefore it was reinvestigated.
This type is variant of "Otsu".
It's the 3rd from the top of the picture I drew before.

Sorry.

　-

Now I'm reading memoirs of the person who was a pilot of Ki-45Kai.
If some interesting fact is found, I'll report to you.

[shelby]

that is i was reading yesterday in the title ki-45 kai otsu
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/2ha4tlegw02iytqa/images/18-2f50a91757.jpg
and i also noticed that tei had rear defence gun

[Pursuivant]

yes but i think all the night fighters variants remained on paper because the j1n was produced

Actually, no.

According to Francillon, which is still probably the best book on Japanese WW2 aircraft in English, Ki-45 units in the SW Pacific made an unspecified number of field modified night fighters to counter night raids by USAAF B-24 bombers.

Those conversions worked well enough that about 200 night fighters were produced at the factory when the next production block was introduced. Those would be the Hei version according to Major.Kudo and the Bunrindo book, or whatever the variant is without the nose guns according to Francillon.

While the Tei version was mostly intended as an anti-shipping/heavy fighter, it appears that at least a few were converted to night fighters in an attempt to counter the B-29 raids on the Japanese Home Islands. I'm not sure how many, though.

But, you're correct that the version of the Ki-45 which was optimized as a single seat interceptor/night fighter got turned into its own project, which was called the Ki-96 by the IJAAF.

The J1N Gekko/Irving was a different aircraft, produced by a different manufacturer (the N stands for Nakajima, Kawasaki didn't produce aircraft for the IJN) for the IJNAF. It was built at approximately the same time as the Ki-45, but since the Japanese Army and Navy didn't get along at all, and had separate procurement systems, it was very unusual for them to use the same models of aircraft.

[major.kudo]

I don't think only the J1N was very excellent as a night fighter.
Japanese navy's FD-2 radar was low performance, and it was the degree which can rarely detect B-29 ahead of the 3km.
Though an antenna was being equipped in the J1N, there even was planes onto which radar isn't carrying.

Army was experimenting on the latest at Ki-45Kai"Bo" and other types for "Taki" radar loaded, but these has not been completed. The performance of "TaKi" was similar to FD-2.

The Japanese couldn't complete the night fighter which becomes a definitive edition until the end of war.
The army and a navy threw every plane which can catch up to intercept B-29.

[*{64s}Saburo]

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/989831IMAG0056.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=989831IMAG0056.jpg)

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/181603IMAG0057.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=181603IMAG0057.jpg)

sorry for the french langage !! translated yourself...

[shelby]

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/989831IMAG0056.jpg

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/181603IMAG0057.jpg

sorry for the french langage !! translated yourself...

what is this book?

[*{64s}Saburo]

the title in french language is : les avions de l'armée imperiale japonaise de 1910 a 1945 de Bernard Baeza.
livre trés complet...

[shelby]

thanks

[major.kudo]

The fact of Shelby searching is recorded in "Rikugun Genyou Shisakuki Shouko Meishou Ichiranhyou".
It means "Army Modern Experimental Planes Call Name List" in Japanese language.
All Japanese planes of what equipped to call what name are written in this document.
That was made by the Army aircraft head office on February 25, 1945.

I had my friend investigate it. In 1975, this document was recorded in a document about weapon production and supplement of the army. And that was kept in "Japan National Diet Library" in Tokyo.
It's also kept there today.

A book of Bunrindo of 1990 year edition is written in that referred to that document.
(It's written in P.36)

[shelby]

Major if you have it can you upload it in the internet?

[*{64s}Saburo]

hi major ! your dragon slayer mission don't want to start!

[major.kudo]

hi major ! your dragon slayer mission don't want to start!

This forum isn't the place where a mission is uploaded for certain.
That was my mistake.　I'm sorry.

[Pursuivant]

That was made by the Army aircraft head office on February 25, 1945.

That is what historians call a "primary document," and is even better than the Bunrindo book.

We're lucky that it survived US air raids and post-war Japanese destruction of documents.

There's all sorts of good information on World War 2 which is held in national archives and isn't available on the web.