hard to kill JS-1 tanks

[stugumby]

having an incredible time trying to kill JS tanks with the HS 129B2 with 75mm gun, i either hit it to low or it just bounces off, even from the rear and diving from an angle. Kills t34 and shermans every hit. JS armor on the rear deck cant be enough to stop 75mm pak 40 AP?? I posted the mission on M4T as DE_Tank hunting last week for those that want to give it a try.

[Pursuivant]

That sounds like a bug. The Pak 75 L40 should be able to go through 80-90 mm of armor at ~500 m range at a 30* angle, and the top rear armor on the JS-1 was just 30 mm.

[stovak]

It works, but you do need to get in close.

[majorfailure]

having an incredible time trying to kill JS tanks with the HS 129B2 with 75mm gun, i either hit it to low or it just bounces off, even from the rear and diving from an angle. Kills t34 and shermans every hit. JS armor on the rear deck cant be enough to stop 75mm pak 40 AP?? I posted the mission on M4T as DE_Tank hunting last week for those that want to give it a try.

IS-1 was way better armoured than T-34/Sherman, especially on the hull. So you may need to hit a specific part, if you fly in a slight dive the turret rear or the hull rear. I know you can destroy them. but AFAIR it is not as easy with other tanks where nearly every hit is a kill.

[dimlee]

I love Hs129 but I stopped trying to use that 75mm cannon and switched to Mk101/103. Probably I needed more patience. Or just to give up and to wear glasses as my most precise shot was always the last one before the crash. ;)

As for IS tanks... In older (4.07 and earlier) I flew Ju87G a lot. IS were real pain in the ass especially online (with network lags, enemy fighters, etc.). But high angle attack with shot in the rear usually worked.

By the way, Orel War server (185.91.117.32:21015) has one map which is excellent for Hs129 practice. This one:
http://www.letkaorel.eu/fusion7/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=238
There are T-34s, IS-2 and SU-152 monsters - all moving. Mixed with mobile AAA and soft targets. Cool map.

[Pursuivant]

It works, but you do need to get in close.

Yes, but to hit a target the size of a tank you more or less have to be within 500 m, which means that any hit to the top rear of the tank should penetrate, unless IL2 models the possibility of the shell ricocheting off the armor due to high angle of impact.

[stovak]

Well, that was rather my point. Leaving out any defenses so I could focus on the shooting, I tried the 75mm against all of the heavy tanks. Pretty much every hit resulted in a kill, so I concluded that any one not getting penetration must be shooting from too great a distance.

[RPS69]

This data is inside \Files\com\maddox\il2\objects\technics.ini

On the following tables you will see that hitting a KV1 tank form the top is worst than a JS2 or 3. It was always like that in game.
The plates thickness are in Meters.


[KV1]
Description USSR's tank KV-1
Icon fieldgun // used for 'stacionar' tank only

// Models
MeshSummer 3do/Tanks/KV-1/Summer/hier.him
MeshWinter 3do/Tanks/KV-1/Winter/hier.him

// Panzer
PanzerSubtype 5
PanzerBodyFront 0.075
PanzerBodyBack 0.075
PanzerBodySide 0.075
PanzerBodyTop 0.035
PanzerHead 0.105
PanzerHeadTop 0.035

[IS2]
Description USSR's tank IS-2.
Icon fieldgun // used for 'stacionar' tank only

// Models
MeshSummer 3do/Tanks/IS-2/Summer/hier.him
MeshWinter 3do/Tanks/IS-2/Winter/hier.him

// Panzer
PanzerSubtype 5
PanzerBodyFront 0.120
PanzerBodyBack 0.060
PanzerBodySide 0.090
PanzerBodyTop 0.030
PanzerHead 0.100
PanzerHeadTop 0.030


[IS3]
Description USSR's tank IS-3.
Icon fieldgun // used for 'stacionar' tank only

// Models
MeshSummer 3do/Tanks/IS-3/Summer/hier.him
MeshWinter 3do/Tanks/IS-3/Winter/hier.him

// Panzer
PanzerSubtype 5
PanzerBodyFront 0.120
PanzerBodyBack 0.060
PanzerBodySide 0.090
PanzerBodyTop 0.020
PanzerHead 0.230
PanzerHeadTop 0.020


Here is the weapon penetration table

Number of shots to kill tank (panzer thickness(meters) \ energy)
[_TankShotPanzer_]
;thick\energy 0.00 7.62- 7.62 12.7 20.0 37.0 45.0 75.0 100 150
0 1000 3500 10000 27250 160000 300000 1100000 4800000 8000000
0.000 9999 60 10 2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
0.005 9999 100 15 5 2 0.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
0.010 9999 400 35 20 8 0.8 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0
0.015 9999 9999 1000 40 18 1.0 0.4 0.1 0.0 0.0
0.020 9999 9999 9999 700 28 1.3 0.5 0.2 0.0 0.0
0.025 9999 9999 9999 900 50 1.5 0.8 0.3 0.0 0.0
0.030 9999 9999 9999 2000 120 1.8 1.5 0.9 0.0 0.0
0.040 9999 9999 9999 9999 200 3 1.8 1.1 0.1 0.0
0.050 9999 9999 9999 9999 1000 10 5 1.5 0.6 0.0
0.070 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 500 50 1.9 0.8 0.1
0.100 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 2000 1000 6 1.0 0.5
0.150 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 100 5 0.8
0.200 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 9999 800 200

You will see that the KV1 having a 35mm may become almost impossible to kill with a 37mm canon.

But the alleged difficulty to kill a IS tank with the 75mm, may be a tactics problem.

[Pursuivant]

Well, that was rather my point. Leaving out any defenses so I could focus on the shooting, I tried the 75mm against all of the heavy tanks. Pretty much every hit resulted in a kill, so I concluded that any one not getting penetration must be shooting from too great a distance.

Sorry to be redundant!

Your testing means that the original poster just wasn't getting close enough. So, no bug in the game.

Looks like Mr. Gumby should try flying with icons on for a while until he gets a sense of what a JS-1 looks like at 500 m or less. Since it's a bigger tank than many in the game, he might have been underestimating his range.

[stovak]

I've been trying this some more, using all KV-1 tanks as they appear to be the toughest.

Regarding tactics, with the Hs129-B3 (75mm) I come in for the attack run at 400-500m altitude with combat flaps, then nose down into a 30° dive. I keep the tank at the bottom of the gunsight as I go in, and only dip the crosshair briefly onto the turret to shoot when I'm at about 100m altitude. I don't claim to be an expert, but it seems to work most of the time. I do get the odd bouncer if I hit the wrong spot.

As RPS69 suggests, the -B2 with 37mm is ineffective. I ran out of ammo with no kills. I also tried a couple of runs with the Mosquito Tse-tse (57mm, I think). That fared as badly as the 37mm.

[majorfailure]

-Snip-

You will see that the KV1 having a 35mm may become almost impossible to kill with a 37mm canon.

But the alleged difficulty to kill a IS tank with the 75mm, may be a tactics problem.

Do I get the table correctly, when I assume it would take up to three shots from 37mm from directly above to kill a KV-1? And up to 1.9 shots to kill it with 75mm - hitting the hull? that would mean you'd need a hit o the body - and does IL-2 figure in shell energy, e.g. if shooting close you get better results?

[RPS69]

Do I get the table correctly, when I assume it would take up to three shots from 37mm from directly above to kill a KV-1? And up to 1.9 shots to kill it with 75mm - hitting the hull? that would mean you'd need a hit o the body - and does IL-2 figure in shell energy, e.g. if shooting close you get better results?

Good question. A long time ago I used to fiddle with this numbers, and decided that the better results were obtained by just changing the KV-1 upper armor to 30mm.
I redistributed it as a mod to play a campaign and so be it.
If you read a bit more on the upper text, is seems that it is supposed to be a question of probability, not really a full table based solution. But I can't get a clear view from that too.
It was easier to change the KV-1 value.
I also modified the minimum angle for AA artillery, so to diminish lag. They will only fire against flying objects, and not against land moving chiefs.