RRR reload refuel repair option

[sgt fury]

hello,
Is there a plan by team diadalos to add the above option ? its really high time this is added. It is included as a MOD in SAS CUP and works well.

[P-38L]

I include myself in that idea. This idea fascinates me.
From various forums I kindly request that this option is implemented.

Unfortunately there are many naysayers who oppose this great option.

The feature Rearm / Refuel / Repair, could be divided into time according to the level of realism with which we want to use the simulator.

I remember when a MOD could have this feature and it was great the use. The missions were exciting and had options, could create missions were to fly across the Pacific to find an aircraft carrier and so quickly refuel and to continue the journey, or when the mission was to sink a ship and had to Rearm the plane to continue the mission to achieve the objective.

I know that large aircraft Refuelling take a long time, that levels of realism are treated. In addition to negative people, it is very simple: Do not use this great option. Period.

[Pursuivant]

I think that RRR would be a great option. For single player, it's a nice change from hitting the refly mission button or going with unlimited ammo.

In multiplayer it would be a huge improvement to the game. With the right settings it could be used with any sort of mission from realistic coops to endless dogfight servers.

As with any setting, there should be the option to turn some or all of the features off.

Refueling would be the easiest - just set a rate at which fuel can be transferred. For extra realism, possibly put restrictions on type of fuel available (i.e., no rocket fuel, no 100 octane fuel, no diesel). Perhaps set limits on amount of various fuel types available or the number of planes which can be refueled at once. It should be possible to take off without fully refueling.

Rearming would be next easiest - set which types of weapons can be rearmed and the time required for each rearming option. If a particular option isn't available, it can be struck off the list. Perhaps set limits on number of planes which can be rearmed with a particular loadout or the number of planes which can be simultaneously remarmed. For some loadouts, it should be possible to take off without fully rearming.

Repair is the most problematic, since I'm not sure how IL2 handles damage to the aircraft. Also, realistically, repairs to an aircraft could take days or even months. Very simply, repair could be treated like rearming - set a list of repairs which are possible and the time to needed perform them. This could include First Aid for crewmen, as well as the ability to repair critical hits.

RRR functionality could be "attached" to a particular ground object in the FMB. If that object is damaged or destroyed, you lose some degree of RRR capability. That gives you even more incentive to protect your airfields.

To activate RRR, players would need to taxi to within X meters of the RRR site, shut down their engines, and then request RRR.

Different objects could offer different types of RRR. For example, you might need to taxi within 10 meters of a fuel tank to initiate refueling. Then, you might need to taxi to within 20 m of a bomb dump to get rearmed, or taxi into a hangar in order to get repaired.


As a related option, there should also be the possibility of switching aircraft. The only trick is that the game would have to keep track of aircrew quality and injuries separately from the aircraft. For this option to work, you'd need to land, turn off your engine, request a new aircraft, and then hit "bail out."
After some period of delay, your crew will "respawn" in the new aircraft.

The FMB or server could set limits to what sort of new aircraft are available. For example, if you trash your spiffy new fighter plane, your only respawn options might be older aircraft.

On a dogfight server, you could instantly get a new airplane of the same or different type every time you landed without having to log out, or without losing points for getting shot down. That would give players an incentive to get back to base and land successfully rather than fighting to the death.

[P-38L]

As an example of a specific mission. Lets say that in this case an airport don't have fuel at the moment, but have weapons or spare parts.
If you land at an airport that does not have fuel, you can request it (you will have to wait). The mission must be programmed by sending a cargo plane which other pilots (or AI) on the same side must protect this plane to reach its destination.

The fuel is running out in airports as pilots are requesting fuel. The same applies to weapons or spare parts. The pilot can ask how much fuel or weapons have the airport, and so distribute it among their colleagues.

In other forums, I have seen progress on the C-47 or Li-2; this is a good task for these aircraft.

Fuel, weapons or spare parts, can also be transported by land (in smaller quantities). These transports may also be protected by aircraft of the same side.

The mission can then extend far between several pilots. A group of pilots are flying, protecting cargo planes. Another group of pilots are stationed on land at an airport waiting for the cargo ariplane that transport fuel, weapons or spare parts. The enemies will try to shoot down the cargo planes. If they succeed, the mission will have a very different outcome.

[Marabekm]

I don't know a lot about the RRR, but seems like to me that already happens. You land a airfield, hit refly and then fly, and you have a brand new plane with ammo and fuel.

Is there something I am missing here?

[Tolwyn]

You're missing SP mode and COOP mode.

I don't know a lot about the RRR, but seems like to me that already happens. You land a airfield, hit refly and then fly, and you have a brand new plane with ammo and fuel.

Is there something I am missing here?

[Tolwyn]

The way I'd like to see it implemented is like a target object.

With a radias (you have to park your aircraft within the radias).

With a timeout (how many minutes:seconds you must wait).

Army Option (like all the other targets)

And it just resets your plane to what the weapons and fuel specs were in the mission.

The biggest obstacle is REPAIR.

So maybe this object is a despawn and respawn logic hidden under the term Refuel/Rearm/Repair

And it's up to the mission builder to place appropriate objects around the radias.

[stovak]

I like the idea. Having a refuel/rearm option would certainly be more immersive than hitting refly as soon as we come to a stop on the runway. It would also mean more interesting activity at the airfield as people fly in then taxi to the refuel point. Whether it takes 1 minute or 5, or whatever people decide, it's no less realistic than refly so I don't see lack of realism as an objection.

Repairs to major damage might be a step to far, maybe leave refly as as a requirement for damage repair? Either way, I'm all for it.

[Pursuivant]

Repairs that don't take hours or days are the least realistic part of RRR.

So, those folks who want realism should probably just turn the "Repair" option off.

Other than that, you might have a random chance that a repair could be completed quickly. Set the "quick repair" chance at less than 1% for realistic results, and only for light damage, fuel or oil leaks, and damage to gauges and guns.

For example, it's possible that your fuel leak isn't due to a badly ruptured fuel cell, but just a small hole in your fuel line. 10 minutes, a wrench, and a bit of hose, and your plane is fit to fly again.

Or, say that your gun damage isn't actually a bullet through the body of the gun, but just a bullet through the links that hold the belt of bullets together. Remove the gun cover, remove the bad link and your gun is back in action.

If quick repair isn't an option, then its time to respawn/get a new plane.

[Pursuivant]

As an example of a specific mission. Lets say that in this case an airport don't have fuel at the moment, but have weapons or spare parts.

That's a very cool idea, which would be fun for long, real-time online campaigns, or different missions in a traditional static or dynamic campaign.

It would also add a strategic element to online missions, where you have to consider logistics to concentrate supplies at a particular airfield in order to support an attack.

[Marabekm]

Repairs that don't take hours or days are the least realistic part of RRR.

So, those folks who want realism should probably just turn the "Repair" option off.

Other than that, you might have a random chance that a repair could be completed quickly. Set the "quick repair" chance at less than 1% for realistic results, and only for light damage, fuel or oil leaks, and damage to gauges and guns.

For example, it's possible that your fuel leak isn't due to a badly ruptured fuel cell, but just a small hole in your fuel line. 10 minutes, a wrench, and a bit of hose, and your plane is fit to fly again.

Or, say that your gun damage isn't actually a bullet through the body of the gun, but just a bullet through the links that hold the belt of bullets together. Remove the gun cover, remove the bad link and your gun is back in action.

If quick repair isn't an option, then its time to respawn/get a new plane.

A quick repair is a relative term. Remember first you have to diagnose the problem, then fix it, then test it. And its not all about just patching a bullet hole. Its not what you see is broke now, its what got knocked loose or damaged such that it will fail in the future. (Think working on your car - Sure an oil change can be done in 15 - 20 minutes, but to fix something that is broke, that can take much longer and still be considered quick)
Add the issue of parts. So your plane is damaged - The part you need to fix it is at the main supply base 1 to 2 hours away(or worse yet- the part is back in home country and must travel by ship to a main distribution area, then aircraft). Do you really want to sit there for an hour or so while somebody gets in a transport aircraft, flies the part out to the forward base (better hope no one shoots him down), then the ground crew has to perform the maintenance and put plane back together. (Time frame of hours to days depending on the amount of damage) - But still considered quick.

So would it be realistic - absolutely not. An interesting option to have? - sure.

Perhaps as an alternative:
1. Set plane limit (which you can already do) So we have 20 Bf-109Fs at Tobruk.
2. Someone takes off and gets damaged but can make it back to base. Upon returning to base, taxi's and parks at designated repair area. Player hits refly
3. Now that plane at the moment is un-flyable so plane limit goes down to 19 available at Tobruk. Player is in another 109 and goes back into the virtual skies.
4. Upon completion of repairs (time limit would be set by mission builder) that plane would be flyable again increasing limit back to 20.

[Tolwyn]

I just realized we're basically talking about Sprint Cars (Nascar) making a pitstop, getting fuel, a windshield cleaning, banging out the dents... and away you go again.
Hmmm.

[Pursuivant]

A quick repair is a relative term. Remember first you have to diagnose the problem, then fix it, then test it.

Again, agreed. That's why, realistically, the chance of being able to make a quick repair should be minimal (like 1% or less).

But, there were a VERY few cases where aircraft were able to be quickly repaired in the manner I described. The mechanic was able to instantly diagnose the problem, then very quickly fix it with sufficient confidence in his work that he didn't have to test it.

So, not the norm, but the stuff that legends are made of. :)

If you want a deeper degree of realism in mechanical repair options, the game should keep track of degree of damage to an aircraft and then assign a "damage category" to it after the mission.

Category 0 - Undamaged - Only routine maintenance needed.

Category 1 - Light Damage - Aircraft can be repaired on site - repairs take hours to days to complete. In most campaigns, the aircraft can be returned to action. In game, this might represent light damage to one or a few areas of the plane, or a well-done belly landing.

Category 2 - Heavy Damage - Aircraft beyond repair in field - repairs take weeks or months to complete. In most campaigns, the airplane is out of action. On an aircraft carrier, the deck crew might just tip the plane over the side. In game, this might represent heavy damage to several areas of the plane, or light damage to most areas of the plane. It could also represent a belly landing which cracks the plane up, or damage due to overspeed/ excessive G forces.

Category 3 - Fatal Damage - Aircraft is "beyond economical means of repair" and is a write-off. It is no longer flyable, although it might still be useful for parts, ground training, etc. Repairs take years to complete, and are mostly funded by eccentric millionaires who drag decaying wrecks out of deserts, lakes, and jungles 60 years after the aircraft was lost. :) In game terms, this represents heavy damage to many parts of the plane, or damage to planes which catch on fire, explode, or crash at high speed.

The same categories could also be used for kill claims. Damaged = Category 1 damage, Probable = Category 2 damage, Kill = Category 3 damage (plus "other stuff" like seeing the airplane crash/crew bail out).

Note that the categories above are simplifications of RAF and USAAF aircraft damage categories, which were a bit more complex.

[P-38L]

On August 20, 2010 a MOD was published, in which the pilot could get off the plane, walk and go back to the plane.

This routine could be implemented taking advantage several alternatives.

1. The pilot manages to reach the airport or aircraft carrier, his plane is so damaged that can not be repaired quickly. The pilot off the plane, walk or run to another aircraft available and flies again. This instead of using the Refly option.

2. A pilot managed to land his plane in a remote area from an airport. He asked to be rescued. The civil aircraft controlled by another pilot, will fly to his or her location to be rescued. The civil airplane lands in that remote area and recue the pilot. They fly to the nearest airport. The rescued pilot gets off the civil plane, walk up a warplane available and fly again.

Imagine the possibilities.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZygdbLbeM1c

[KG26_Alpha]

It was never produced just done to show a Java possibility,
control of the pilot was difficult and took a lot to get him to move,
it wasnt a case of using few keys to go forwards backwards left and right.

IIRC

[Pursuivant]

It was never produced just done to show a Java possibility,
control of the pilot was difficult and took a lot to get him to move,
it wasnt a case of using few keys to go forwards backwards left and right.


Also, really crude animation just using the "dead in the parachute" and "running pilot" poses.

While there's something to be said for letting aircrew run to their planes (simulating "alarm start"/"scramble" missions), or run from one plane to another, or just run to get cover on the ground if they're near a live bomb or being strafed, IL2 just doesn't look that good at "human" scale. It's an airplane sim, not a FPS.

[dimlee]

Examples of quick repairs under one hour: change of broken gunsight (small but annoying damage on some aircrafts) or of gauges on instrument panel.

And I like idea of fuel and ammunition types limitations. Makes online play more interesting in tactical terms. Let's say I fly my Henschel and there are trucks and tanks in target area. Normally I press all buttons at once. But if 30mm AP ammo is in short supply, I'll be more selective and will use Mk103 cannon only against tanks. Etc, etc...

[RPS69]

Examples of quick repairs under one hour: change of broken gunsight (small but annoying damage on some aircrafts) or of gauges on instrument panel.


Not a good example. Broken gunsights must be calibrated. And this alone might take more than an hour.

Rearm Repair and Refuel, should be limited to Rear and Refuel. IF (with capital letters) some kind of realism is intended.
Rearming some planes is far slower than others.
The only type or repair that could be done that fast, is parching some holes, and to the limit, changing a canopy... if it is available in stock...
Even changing a spinner is a difficult process that needs balancing it, without computer assistance, and made just by trial and error iterations on that period.


And I like idea of fuel and ammunition types limitations. Makes online play more interesting in tactical terms. Let's say I fly my Henschel and there are trucks and tanks in target area. Normally I press all buttons at once. But if 30mm AP ammo is in short supply, I'll be more selective and will use Mk103 cannon only against tanks. Etc, etc...

When you build a strategic game, and you start calculating the costs and logistics needed to move just the fuel for a single schwarm flight, you learn that blowing a fuel tank on some places is equivalent to blowing up 20 planes with one shot. Those flying machines were thirsty! 400L would be consumed in just one single flight by a single engined plane.
A destroyed truck convoy could imply the loss of much more than a single fighter.
It is really nice for the flying game, targets become real. Dogfights are avoided as useless activities, ground attack becomes primary tasks, and so on.

One thing that is not well represented in game is plane stability and maneuverability at low altitude.
Hitting a mudmover using boom and zoom tactics generally ended with the fighter pilot participating in a gourmette conference with the worms, he being the first dish.

Those minor details can made this a better game than just a new badly implemented plane.

[Tolwyn]

Guys you aren't ever going to agree.

Just flag the difficulty:

Allow rearm yes/no
Allow repair yes/no
Allow full repair yes/no (becomes unavailable if Allow repair is no)
Allow refuel yes/no

And control the time in the *.mis file if the Radias object is placed.

[P-38L]

All people who oppose this great option, should think that if we are talking about realism, neither is turn the engine on, as simply pressing the "I" key.

Nobody has complained how to start an engine (It would be a breakthrough, having to perform the procedure for starting an engine and the difference it has between the different planes).

The solution to this is simple. If you do not like the R/R/R option, then do not use it.

In FS2004 and FSX have the option that if you approach the plane enough to a gas station, the fuel tank of your aircraft will start automatically filled. Even, you can see the needle move fuel level while the tank is filled.

On the other hand, Prepar3D in its new version 3.5, you have the option of using a human and walk or run. This simulator has been improved by Lockheed Martin. It's an airplane sim too, not a FPS.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2S0mB3t_o8

[RPS69]

I don't think it is a question of realism or not.

It is just a question to accept it as a game variant, and not to try to support it by calling realism.

Maybe as it used to be, it was a bit oversimpplified.

Also, it is a funny option, but I never understood the need for it. The normal respawining option does actually the same. Maybe it is enough to place a despawn position.

I don't know, for me it is just a gaming style.

[Tolwyn]

You guys are forgetting sp and coop modes!!!!

i don't think it is a question of realism or not.

It is just a question to accept it as a game variant, and not to try to support it by calling realism.

Maybe as it used to be, it was a bit oversimpplified.

Also, it is a funny option, but i never understood the need for it. The normal respawining option does actually the same. Maybe it is enough to place a despawn position.

I don't know, for me it is just a gaming style.

[Marabekm]

You guys are forgetting sp and coop modes!!!!

I do agree with you here, realistic or not, RRR would be a good implementation for Co-operative and Single player missions, but for dogfight mode I really don't see any use.

[Pursuivant]

Also, it is a funny option, but I never understood the need for it.

So, you're flying a full-real Co-op mission as part of a Japanese dive bomber group in a Battle of Midway scenario. You're loaded with small anti-personnel bombs to make a second strike on Midway when word comes in that an American carrier task force has been detected.

RRR (rearming option) allows you to change your bomb loadout to 250/500 Kg bombs to take out the American ships.

You're currently at 50% fuel from the Midway strike, so RRR (refueling) allows you to simultaneously increase your fuel load so you have the range to hit the enemy and get back home.

The only problem is that it will take 30 minutes or more to remove the Anti-Personnel bombs and fit the larger bombs, and about as long to get refueled.

Meanwhile, the entire air wing is just sitting on the deck because they can't take off until RRR has been completed.

Damned shame about all those inbound American bombers.

Maybe, if you're in a position to take off, you could cancel RRR once you realize that the enemy is in the air, taking off with some (or no) bombs and partial fuel. You can't strike the enemy carriers, but you might be able to help out the CAP in your D3A2 (as was done historically) and save your carrier.

NOW tell me that RRR is unrealistic.

[Pursuivant]

I do agree with you here, realistic or not, RRR would be a good implementation for Co-operative and Single player missions, but for dogfight mode I really don't see any use.

Currently, no there's not much point. You just land and respawn.

OTOH, there could be an option for dogfight servers which DISABLES automatic respawn after landing and forces you to use RRR.

If the server host wanted to be a bastard, you could limit RR to just refueling and rearming guns, so you have to fly with a damage aircraft until you crash or get shot down.

Server rules could also allow "vulching" so you might get destroyed while you're sitting on tarmac rearming and refueling.

Or, turn it around. Perhaps you and your side get extra points if you successfully land and perform RRR vs. respawning.

[RPS69]

NOW tell me that RRR is unrealistic.

Lol!

If you tell me IL2 carriers have bombs and plane fuel on the deck, and differential fire fighting capability, I will agree!

To me, it is just a question of stock management, or time in between respawns.

Someone mentioned the RRR on coop missions, I could understand that. It is like playing a continous mission. But there must be something more, like the moving front lines, and the capacity for ground troops to conquer bases.
Problem is that IL2 never behaved as a wargame. Not like the far older SWOTL and BOB.

[Pursuivant]

If you tell me IL2 carriers have bombs and plane fuel on the deck, and differential fire fighting capability, I will agree!

We can hope!


Someone mentioned the RRR on coop missions, I could understand that. It is like playing a continous mission. But there must be something more, like the moving front lines, and the capacity for ground troops to conquer bases.
Problem is that IL2 never behaved as a wargame. Not like the far older SWOTL and BOB.

Valid point. Third party products do a much better job here.

[daidalos.team]

Repair option is unrealistic. Repair plane can be several hours/ days/ weeks.
Refuel/ rearm option had DT in scope in MDS. But never realized it. Maybe in future ...

[sgt fury]

Reload Refuel should be the top priority for team Diadalos. Its already in a Mod in CUP from SAS , why cant we have have it ? its not rocket science . Surely a couple of armoured trains add ons cant be a priority !! RRR is a significant jump for the sim.

[Pursuivant]

Reload Refuel should be the top priority for team Diadalos. Its already in a Mod in CUP from SAS , why cant we have have it ? its not rocket science . Surely a couple of armoured trains add ons cant be a priority !! RRR is a significant jump for the sim.

It's a matter of what different team members are able to do. RRR requires coding skills. Armored train add-ons require 3d graphics skills.

Mods have shown that RRR is possible, but unless the creator of that mod wishes to share their work with DT, DT would have to develop RRR functionality from scratch.

[|ZUTI|]

Pursuivant: DT has/did have RRR code. And then some.

[idefix44]

Hey!
I'm really happy to see that Zuti is still alive.

Hope all is fine for you sir.

[RPS69]

I loved the moving front lines, and the RRR on that scenery.

I have built a whole dinamic scenery where front lines moved while your troops attacked enemy positions, but it was staged in a way that they will only succedd on the attack if they got good air support.

RRR becomes handy at that point to stimulate pilots return to base unharmed.
I runned it on coop mode, so that whoever becomes dead, was definitely dead.
Whoever bailed out, was also out.

I was a bit on the mad side at that time, with missions with more than 3000 objects, and around 100 chiefs.
Also with modified trains, and ground convoys.
Having the possibility to mess with the chief.ini was incredible, but it also allowed cheating.
I never run this on a public server because of that.
Having the option to kill a ship with one single low caliber bullet was a huge error. I believe it was corrected on the last version, but I decided to wait for the last release off Zuti's RRR because I become pissed off with having to change everything again after any new patch.

[Pursuivant]

Assuming RRR is a real possibility, here's a bit of data which has changed my mind about the speed at which some major repairs can be performed:


"It is necessary to include a comment on that already offered concerning the accessibility of the engine for maintenance service.
I will give it to you point blank and let you estimate its value. The engine of the Messerschmitt [i.e., Bf-109D] can be removed, replaced with another - ready to go - inside of 12 minutes.

You can imagine the uproar of doubt and incredulity in official circles when I returned to the States and spread that word around.
The reason for the uproar was quite obvious, in that in very many instances, between 24 and 36 hours were required to remove one engine and replace it with another in many of our standard types of fighting planes.
But, when other Americans returned home from an inspection of the German Air Force and told the same story, great impetus was given to the development of a quick motor replacement in service ships.

The Germans had developed the technique and trained the ground crews to effect this change of engines in the specified length of time on the open airdrome - given, of course, decent weather conditions.

It was explained to me that, from a tactical standpoint, this ultra-rapid change of motors was of utmost importance.
For instance, a pilot returning from an active front to his own airdrome could radio ahead and notify the field force that he needed a new engine. By the time he landed, they could be ready for him.

Ordinary service to an aircraft, such as filling the gasoline tank, checking and replenishing the oil supply, and reloading ammunition belts, requires between ten and fifteen minutes.
The new development, therefore, enables the Germans to change an engine while the rest of the service is going on. It's startling performance - namely, yanking one engine and replacing it with another, and turning it over to the pilot inside of 12 minutes."

- US Marine Corps major Al Williams. Source: Bf 109D test flight, 1938.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Assuming that the 12 minute engine-change time isn't just Nazi propaganda, that means that some major repairs could be completed far more quickly than I thought. Of course, even assuming 12 minute time is real, it requires that everything is set up for the engine change in advance, perfect weather, and an elite ground crew working as fast as a modern race car's pit crew.

But, prior to WW2, the Germans did develop quick engine change procedures for their aircraft which allowed them to make engine swaps on Ju-90 airliners in about 30 minutes!

Perhaps sitting around in your virtual airplane for half an hour while your engine gets replaced is a bit much for most IL2 players, but it's still an incredibly fast turnaround time for a major repair.

[dimlee]

Interesting. As I remember, fast repair and replacement procedures were very well implemented in German tank troops as well.