List of objects for WIP maps: 3rd party contributors welcomed

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Let's start with a simple object which would be usefule for MTO maps:

V-shaped fighter blast pen

My guess is that the picture was taken in Lybia around 1941. I have photographic evidence that this kind of shelter was used up to 1943 in Axis airfields like Kairouan and El Aouina (Tunis). In some cases they were reinforced by earth fill on the external side...

http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/North-Africa/images/Blast-pens-North-Africa-01.jpg

[Spudkopf]

So I take it the dimensions are: length and width to accommodate something like a bf109, M202, Spitfire, Hurricane, Tomahawk etc and the height judging by the photo is about the same as the aforementioned planes (excluding the prop).

Looks like there is a left and right half with access/protection in the rear where the two halves overlap so the left hand Half is longer than the right.

The wall thickness appears to be about that or little more than that of the engine of the 109 currently in the revetment and the walls have a very slight 2° to 4° taper.

Will play around and see what I can do.

Scale is 50% of actual is this correct?

Is it stone or is it just a hastily erected sandbag pen, it just that it seems a little irregular for sandbags?

[Spudkopf]

Apart from the image that you have already posted, I'm struggling finding any further reference to "any" sort of revetments used in the MTO by either the allies or the axis (except for Malta), most shots show planes from both sides being serviced out in the open at un-penned and far flung dispersal points.

By contrast there plenty images of revetments for both the allies and the axis in Europe, but these are generally well engineered structures at established airfields or airbases.

The pen pictured above was as you say shot in North Africa, which would seem somewhat of a luxury considering the fluidness of front lines in that area of conflict during that period (as it appears to be either a F or G sitting in that pen), with air operations having to move from field to field being a regular occurrence, some fixed locations like Tobruk were duly fortified by both sides however.

So if you can point me to any further reference material that would be great.

[Spudkopf]

Well based on the photo this is my best estimate as to the possible dimensions for the revetment, as you can see it's only suitable for fighters as a stuka barely fits.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12715936_956443224439899_522905997879116841_o.jpg

[Sita]

good scheme) nice!)

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Very nice.

You are probably right about revetmens in the Western Desert (Lybia and Egypt). On the other hand, blast pens were common in Tunisia, Sicily, Sardinia and mainland Italy, as well as in Greece. All major Axis airfields had tens of shelters of different size, as shown by Allied recce and later by Engineering Command surveys.

For example, the Luftwaffe built at Kairouan more than 20 of the small fighter revetments showed above. These were built between December 1942 and January 1943 to accomodate Fw 190s of II/JG2 (source: "Fw 190 in North Africa" book).

Kairouan
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/MTO_blast_pens_1_zps1082a632.png (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/MTO_blast_pens_1_zps1082a632.png.html)

Tunis El Aouina
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/MTO_blast_pens_5_zpse69204d6.png (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/MTO_blast_pens_5_zpse69204d6.png.html)

The following two are screen captures of material from the well known www.wwii-photos-maps.com website

Ariana
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/MTO_blast_pens_3_zps89af58ff.png (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/MTO_blast_pens_3_zps89af58ff.png.html)

Protville West
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/MTO_blast_pens_4_zps1427f4f8.png (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/MTO_blast_pens_4_zps1427f4f8.png.html)

This last one is about different types of revetments at Castelvetrano airfield, Sicily. The two smaller ones were likely made of stone. But I have no idea about the big one.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/MTO-blast-pen-6_zpsjglv0f1m.png (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/MTO-blast-pen-6_zpsjglv0f1m.png.html)

[Pursuivant]

My guess is that they were built using whatever materials were at hand - compacted earth, sandbags, fieldstone, or anything else that wouldn't blow away.

It's not Axis, but the Wikipedia article on aircraft revetments has two good pictures of RAF blast pens on Malta. One is made from stone blocks, the other from old fuel cans filled with sand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revetment_%28aircraft%29#/media/File:Royal_Air_Force-_Operations_in_Malta,_Gibraltar_and_the_Mediterran ean,_1940-1945._CM3241.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revetment_%28aircraft%29#/media/File:Royal_Air_Force-_Operations_in_Malta,_Gibraltar_and_the_Mediterran ean,_1940-1945._CM3237.jpg


Anyhow, textures are up to the designer, and probably should be quite simple.

[Pursuivant]

You are probably right about revetments in the Western Desert (Lybia and Egypt).

That does seem to be the case, even for airfields like Tobruk. My guess is that the war there was so fluid, and building materials so scarce, that they got used for infantry and gun positions.

Where there was more time to plan and better supply lines, there were more fortifications.

Also, there were 4 major powers fighting in the area - UK/Commonwealth, Germany, Italy & France. All of them probably had different engineering designs and specifications, as well as whatever field-expedient fortifications local commanders dreamed up.

Looking at the photos you provided, I'm seeing 7 different blast pen designs:

V-shaped, C-shaped, S-shaped, N-shape, a "crab claw" extended C-shape (Ariana airfield), an "anchor" or "arrow"-shape (|->, Protville West) and truncated V-shaped (like you showed originally), as well as the ]-shape or E-shape that we've already got in the game.

For the V-shaped designs, some are closed at the base of the V, while others have a narrow "S"-shaped passage through the walls for ease of access and, perhaps, shelter. Still others have "double V" design (<<), which might be a wall within a wall, or might be a structure faced with stone or sandbags and filled with dirt.

For the C-shaped designs, some are clearly structures made using stone or sandbag facings and filled with dirt. They'd probably have flat or rounded tops, as opposed to the pyramidal, or truncated pyramidal cross section that a rammed earth revetment would have.

All major Axis airfields had tens of shelters of different size, as shown by Allied recce and later by Engineering Command surveys.

Are the Engineering Command Surveys available online?

Are there field fortification manuals available?

[_1SMV_Gitano]

That does seem to be the case, even for airfields like Tobruk. My guess is that the war there was so fluid, and building materials so scarce, that they got used for infantry and gun positions.

Where there was more time to plan and better supply lines, there were more fortifications.

That is my guess too. Apart that, the general policy of the Allied in the mid-to-late war years was to use widely dispersed hardstands rather than shelters. This was true for the all theaters. Just compare any early war airfield with the later ones. Malta was obviously an exception.


Also, there were 4 major powers fighting in the area - UK/Commonwealth, Germany, Italy & France. All of them probably had different engineering designs and specifications, as well as whatever field-expedient fortifications local commanders dreamed up.


That was probably true in the early war years. But from early 1943 onwards unification of commands and procedures was steadily introduced by the Allied forces. This applied also to airfield construction. On the other hand, by 1943 most of the development of airfields in the MTO was carried out by the Germans, while the Italian logistic machine was collapsing.


Looking at the photos you provided, I'm seeing 7 different blast pen designs:

V-shaped, C-shaped, S-shaped, N-shape, a "crab claw" extended C-shape (Ariana airfield), an "anchor" or "arrow"-shape (|->, Protville West) and truncated V-shaped (like you showed originally), as well as the ]-shape or E-shape that we've already got in the game.

For the V-shaped designs, some are closed at the base of the V, while others have a narrow "S"-shaped passage through the walls for ease of access and, perhaps, shelter. Still others have "double V" design (<<), which might be a wall within a wall, or might be a structure faced with stone or sandbags and filled with dirt.

For the C-shaped designs, some are clearly structures made using stone or sandbag facings and filled with dirt. They'd probably have flat or rounded tops, as opposed to the pyramidal, or truncated pyramidal cross section that a rammed earth revetment would have.


Having all possible variations would be too much. I would be happy to have the small and V and C types for fighters, the cutted hoctagon (similar size to n.2 in the scheme above) and a couple of single, linear walls to use as wildcars in the construction of blast pens...


Are the Engineering Command Surveys available online?

Are there field fortification manuals available?

Documents are not available freely. You can browse the title of each folder but then you have to purchase a copy of the microfilm, it's 30 US dollars each. For the MTO Engineering Command there are at least 11 rolls, plus those containing aerial recon reports. I managed to purchase four of them but at the moment I'm not in the position to get more. The quality of the material is not uniform, so it is not easy infer the evolution of a single airfield with time, and a lot of research and guess is needed. But for Tunisia and Sicily I hope to provide multiple time frames, like Solomons and NGNB maps.

[Spudkopf]

As far as I can work out a standard metric sandbag is 600mm x 300mm x 150mm (L x W X H), while and imperial sandbag is 2' x 1' x 6", so knowing this and using an alternating brick lattice style stacking of the sandbags then this could give a result something like this:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12715531_956807874403434_693155922419742533_n.jpg? oh=12810b5291ce591be54f9a839f3f5842&oe=572EFE0F

I guestimated 750mm for the wall thickness in my pen drawing, but this could just as easily be 600mm, but there is also an obvious taper that would not occur with this style of stacking!

Looking at the smallest pen (1) in the diagrams it looks like the internal dimensions are 48' x 37' , however I am unable to work out the wall thickness, other than it appears to be measured in inches and not feet and almost looks like 8" which is about 200mm !?!

[_1SMV_Gitano]

If I may suggest, I would model these as stone walls rather than sandbags. Like in this picture:

http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/stranieri/bf-109g-4_150gr_act_365sq.jpg

[RPS69]

Improvisation was King and Queen in NA.
So, don't get too precise on the objects. They were made with whatever was available.

[KG26_Alpha]

Is that stone ?

[Spudkopf]

Well played around this morning before work with SolidWorks and created a surface model of based on my drawing (the modelling was about 10 to 15 minutes of work).

To get it to look like the photo I had to increase the base of the walls to 1 metre and given them a 5° draft, wall height here is set to 2.5 metres.

Just so I can see what it would look like skinned, I’ve placed a default brick texture over the surfaces of the model.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12744472_957184687699086_8437616269048257519_n.jpg ?oh=38f8089510525e2833aed76d01a06ec3&oe=57615382

Now I need to try and get this model into 3ds-Max, which I'll try to do tonight.

[Spudkopf]

To get an idea of how many polys are in the model I converted it to an STL:

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12710848_957198111031077_1194940525809836992_o.jpg

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Nice, I like it!!

Before you procede further, may I ask you to build a simpler version without the backdoor? Thanks :)

[Spudkopf]

Done!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12745438_957237367693818_5673212620369634640_n.jpg ?oh=6651bb7d4e0f487e333a466825c2af7d&oe=572A285B&__gda__=1466715271_8f0e60837abfe465b8433206cc00dec a

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xlt1/v/t1.0-9/12662493_957237364360485_7839732527493784722_n.jpg ?oh=32b5bf5eaaee1919aba903f12e052013&oe=5727815E&__gda__=1466362447_983d39dca7cc70f9e5fa63ab35fc0cc e

[Pursuivant]

The two part pen could be split into 2 parts to make the C-shaped, "anchor-shaped", or Z-shaped pens.

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Perfect!!!

Now it would be better if a 3D modeller from DT could check the model and how it could be imported into 3D Max. Maybe Sita? :)

[Sita]

i can check model .... i give to Spudkopf my example of objects..

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Must admit, I'm really, really enjoying watching you guys work.

[Spudkopf]

Slowly (very slowly) coming to grips with 3ds-Max.

Decided it would be easier for me to do my mesh levels in SolidWorks though.

Mesh00
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xla1/v/t1.0-9/1936195_957727077644847_815442000524117644_n.jpg?o h=862c4f7980515986707db51ca4923c26&oe=572B67B1

Mesh01
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12744623_957727084311513_3726008143119971139_n.jpg ?oh=18dfd063abc59af86744283eb6e0eaf5&oe=572F99AE

Mesh02
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12744366_957727087644846_6535067596214365111_n.jpg ?oh=692810e4438bdf61c30056af9e3497ed&oe=5729576C

Mesh03
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/1909874_957727127644842_8781451699655458130_n.jpg? oh=4de0aced90dbc86a2c97790b4c2fe14d&oe=5769B662

I have found that step and sat formatted files seem to be the best format options to use when exporting from SW for import into Max.

[Sita]

level of detail for lods is normal...

but better made lod00 at first at 100 percent and made from it all other lods.. i mean when lod00 will be with maping

[Spudkopf]

level of detail for lods is normal...

but better made lod00 at first at 100 percent and made from it all other lods.. i mean when lod00 will be with maping

Not exactly sure of what you mean, but I started with my lod 00 model scaled to 100% (1:1) and then I created simplified versions of that same model backwards to create the rest of the lods 01,02 and 03, these are just surface meshes and do not have any mapping assigned.

I was looking to import each lod as a layer using the same structure as in your reference object [i](to make things a little easier when I get home tonight I also created 20:1 versions of these lods to import to Max)[/].

My daughter was doing a mapping assignment at school in class last week where she had to skin the rail-gun from District 9, and apparently got best in class so hopefully she will be able to help me out when it comes to mapping my models.

Here is the 512 texture I intend to use at this stage, still need to reduce some of the more obvious repetitions in the pattern:

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12729082_957779744306247_7352314829253192970_n.jpg ?oh=baf01f6ef1eae48f842cb38b27af6fdf&oe=5767D366

[Spudkopf]

Just a quick test of said texture placed on the lod 00 model in SolidWorks.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/12694790_957844477633107_6240859824807266613_o.jpg

[Pursuivant]

Spud,

here are two variants of your stone texture, based on photos of the rocks in Sicily/Southern Italy and the Western Desert.

To my eyes, they look a bit more authentic, although the texture you used for your first model looks to be a good match for Sicily/Italy. The Sicilian/Southern Italian texture is tilted a bit more towards yellow and is color checked against period color photos of damaged stone buildings. I'll let Gitano be the final judge, though! The North African texture is totally blown out towards yellow so it looks like sandstone and also has the contrast sharpened to give more of a sense of harsh desert light. It represents a compromise between the various rock and sand types found in the region.

Feel free to use or alter them as you see fit.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=15244&stc=1&d=1455599299

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=15245&stc=1&d=1455599299

[Sita]

Not exactly sure of what you mean, but I started with my lod 00 model scaled to 100% (1:1) and then I created simplified versions of that same model backwards to create the rest of the lods 01,02 and 03, these are just surface meshes and do not have any mapping assigned.




i mean .... much easier make lod00 with maping and texture ... and from that model you make all other lods keeping mapping from parent lod...
you copy lod00 - named t like lod01 and by removing edges and vertex's you will get fine lod01 with maping ...

in other way, when you make lod00, not finished maping and already make all other lods you will be make new maping for each of lods again ... it's double work ...

send to me lod00 for review ...

[Spudkopf]

i mean .... much easier make lod00 with maping and texture ... and from that model you make all other lods keeping mapping from parent lod...
you copy lod00 - named t like lod01 and by removing edges and vertex's you will get fine lod01 with maping ...

in other way, when you make lod00, not finished maping and already make all other lods you will be make new maping for each of lods again ... it's double work ...

send to me lod00 for review ...

I see where your coming from now, so this means the below may be more difficult to map:1

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/12694921_957956920955196_138231163552086631_o.jpg

Pursuivant, I already had a couple of sandstone variations prepared, the version displayed above was for the Northern MTO, like in the colour photo _1SMV_Gitano provided back on page 2:

Dark Sandstone

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12715628_957958377621717_2737639387232588455_n.jpg ?oh=e1c115cd6b295490debd813f72085680&oe=57615487

Light Sandstone

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12744538_957960167621538_40620971991947122_n.jpg?o h=7d1b88b93da9fcc93d822c59fc9cc74b&oe=5770C8F7

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Indeed Dark Sandstone seems good to me.

The final result will depend also on terrain textures, which are not yet finalized.

[Spudkopf]

Indeed Dark Sandstone seems good to me.

The final result will depend also on terrain textures, which are not yet finalized.

Here's the dark sandstone placed onto the SW model of mesh 00 as a test.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/12698251_958249957592559_1308517507800846864_o.jpg

Still painfully slowly coming to grips with 3ds-Max, started a new scene with just the mesh 00 imported and then merged in the ground reference pyramid, I've watched a lot of YouTube but still looking for that one well made tutorial about the basics, most just do things so quickly that really don't know how they just did what they did.

While I was importing the step file last night I noticed that it appears my version of Max can import native SW parts and assemblies, so I have made a "pack and go" the mesh 00 out of SW and will take this home tonight and see what if any difference there is between importing the step or a native the native file.

[Sita]

as far i can see you put texture tile for all mesh ... i can't say that is wrong ... but a liittle not by Il2 way .... i mean Il2 game engine didn't support self shading and other effects ... so we must draw shadow and highlights on objects by our hands ... in that case maping on mesh is not right

[Spudkopf]

as far i can see you put texture tile for all mesh ... i can't say that is wrong ... but a liittle not by Il2 way .... i mean Il2 game engine didn't support self shading and other effects ... so we must draw shadow and highlights on objects by our hands ... in that case maping on mesh is not right

G'day Sita

This texture is just an initial test texture, to give me an idea of the colour and an idea as to what I'd like to eventually achieve, it is by no means the actual mapping texture, when I finally get to the doing (and figuring out how to do) the texture mapping I'll design a specific texture in line with that of the reference object that you supplied me as a guide.

As it is I've not even worked out the basics of mapping yet so this could still take a while.

I still need to take a proper look at the link that to also supplied, thus far I'm trying to see how far i can get by trial and error (mostly error by the way).

[Sita]

oh ... okey) i've got it) ... sorry)


btw can you send me lod00 (or mesh00 ) for quick look? in .obj format ..

[Spudkopf]

oh ... okey) i've got it) ... sorry)


btw can you send me lod00 (or mesh00 ) for quick look? in .obj format ..

G'day Sita, sure can but.....

These are the default settings that I get when I go to export to .obj format, are these correct?

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/12697498_958499684234253_7688088885004737560_o.jpg

Also because I merged in the ground level pyramid it's also looking for one of the mapping textures from the reference object?

Also what method should i use to send it to you?

[Sita]

for now it not important... any kind of obj ...
or .... i don't know .. may be in max2016 have oportunity to resave from max2016 to max2012?

[Spudkopf]

Just checked only is backward compatible to 3ds-Max 2013.

So have saved .obj format instead.

I know this is stoneage kind of stuff, but I do have any file sharing accounts, but it's quite small (2kb zipped, exporting created two files) so I could email it to you?

(By the way with this model my point of origin was located on the rear wall of the pen, I have since moved this to the centre of the object to make it easier to position, but this updated model is still on my work PC)

[Spudkopf]

Not exactly sure how I did it, but was given the option to get rid of any missing mapping so I took the opportunity and did so, and now both the mesh and .obj are no longer have any associated with any mapping.

[Sita]

would be nice if you will find max2011 or 2012 ( in 2012 present variant resave to 2011)

[Spudkopf]

Oh by the way I did try and import a native Solidworks file, and what this did was import the construction tree, in the mesh00 model I created threeare 2 surface extrudes and a plane extrude these all being separate items when pulled into max

[Spudkopf]

would be nice if you will find max2011 or 2012 ( in 2012 present variant resave to 2011)


I only have access to the 2016 version because that's all I could get through my daughter's student account.

How far back does 3ds-Max 2013 let you save? Because if I can save it back to 2013 then someone with 2013 may be able to save back to 2011.

SolidWorks does not even let you backward save one version, forcing you to have the current version all the time if you want to be able to work with users outside of your own company, and each seat (user license) costs about AU$3 to 4K annually and we have five seats where I work, sure glad I'm not paying for it!

[nic727]

Talking about 3ds max version, do you know if it's possible to download legally old version for free? Where?

Just curious, because I would like to try or messing with it... Or I will try Blender (because it's free and new versions look powerful).

[Sita]

Talking about 3ds max version, do you know if it's possible to download legally old version for free? Where?

Just curious, because I would like to try or messing with it... Or I will try Blender (because it's free and new versions look powerful).

no ... not blender please ... work right from first step ... 3dmax and only ....
i'll try to find some version for you ....

[nic727]

no ... not blender please ... work right from first step ... 3dmax and only ....
i'll try to find some version for you ....

What's wrong with blender? :-?

[Sita]

if you made model in blender you will have some numbers of issues when you will import blendr model to 3d max for import ...

present some plugins for that .. but belive me ... it won't be without issues at all ....

in any case will need do some steps in max .... so ... better if you work in 3d max from first step ....


yes i know ... 3d max is really painfull programm ...

[Sita]

short video about making lods for simple model ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnyTJBfPozk

model was made by Spudkopf

[nic727]

Ok thank you :)

But if you start a project from scratch, Blender is free... But if it's to work with Il2 (3ds max) you are better to use the same. Right?

Thank you for the video :)

[Spudkopf]

short video about making lods for simple model ...

model was made by Spudkopf


I've been going through the video on the slowest speed, step by step, pause rewind, step by step, pause rewind...... you get the picture.

One thing that is not immediately apparent from the video for novices like myself is that to make the clone, you need to select the "Select & Move" tool and then while holding down the shift key drag the clone out of the existing model.

It does not help that Adobe products and I think SolidWorks use the alt key to perform a similar tasks.

[Spudkopf]

Also to alternate between wireframe, solid and edge views F3 and F4 are used.

And Ctrl click to select multiple items.

[nic727]

Is that a max number of polygons for Il2 1946?
Is it the same for everything (planes, vehicles, etc.)?

thx

[Spudkopf]

short video about making lods for simple model ...

model was made by Spudkopf

I have no idea what happens between frames 1:08 and 1:09 but the pan view button turns into a footprint button? From here I'm lost

[Spudkopf]

I have no idea what happens between frames 1:08 and 1:09 but the pan view button turns into a footprint button? From here I'm lost

OK kind of figured it out, still not sure what the feet are all about (maybe a walktrough toll?) but the the rest seems to be using the area select tool to select multiple edges and then using the same tool but holding down the alt key down to de-slect of the edges you actually want to keep.

[Spudkopf]

Ta dah...........

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12747896_960351074049114_1099910286059366796_o.jpg

[Sita]

congrats)

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Excellent!!

[Spudkopf]

Next...........................

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12747896_960471204037101_5766092757002242195_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

Well did some modelling this morning for the Type C revetment, working on an internal dimension of 110’ (33m), a total length of 86’ (26m) and a barrel diameter of 0.66m for the wall thickness and a height of 14’ (which I I reduced this to the for barrel height of 3.96m) here is what you get, a hell of a lot of barrels (some 480 odd which to me seem a lot) and far too many polys.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10456005_960839420666946_7857157901615322811_n.jpg ?oh=1bf233da564f07974344da7a383a33ab&oe=575D9AEB&__gda__=1466487138_ac5de7f0c43d6636acd1d1d91962c52 f

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12733374_960853537332201_1744546865374212202_n.jpg ?oh=12ca821e7f2c78affeae99077df53576&oe=5725D1F9&__gda__=1465918067_3c961b70e711b5c16b4072b36534248 3

So I think it would be fair to say that in its current state the model would be far too heavy on the poly count as it is, if only the straight walls were made of barrels and the rest rammed earth, rock or sand bags then maybe the count could be low enough, but with only the one crude reference to go by I’m not confident enough of the overall construction to even go with what I’ve done.

Also maybe some shorter revetments based on the one that I have already modeled may be useful for this sandbag example below.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/world-war-2/images/2/2d/Bf_109E-7_Trop_6.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130502031055

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Well, in principle it took a lot of material to build one of the big revetments. I read some where that it took somthing about many thousands of 5 gallon tanks to build a single revetment for Wellingtons in Malta!

It is perhaps better to stay low on polycount using simple shape and use the texture as a "proxy" to get the effect of many tanks.

Coming back to the previous model, here is a comparison between new and old:

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/grab0137_zps8qkc1ygl.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/grab0137_zps8qkc1ygl.jpg.html)

and how two revemetments can be combined:
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd179/Gitano1979/grab0138_zpscedftd5e.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/Gitano1979/media/grab0138_zpscedftd5e.jpg.html)

[nic727]

The old one look... hmm... too big and texture are not very cool.

[Spudkopf]

Well, in principle it took a lot of material to build one of the big revetments. I read some where that it took somthing about many thousands of 5 gallon tanks to build a single revetment for Wellingtons in Malta!

It is perhaps better to stay low on polycount using simple shape and use the texture as a "proxy" to get the effect of many tanks.

Coming back to the previous model, here is a comparison between new and old:

picture

and how two revemetments can be combined:

picture

Due to server issues I cant see photobucket picture where I'm so sadly will have to wait until I get home to see the pictures.

I the meantime I did try a work the poly problem in my break time (with a very basic and loosely fitted skin)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12715212_960937873990434_4963790289966751388_n.jpg ?oh=e48ffbb2c86eee44336ac0c1f1f17bdf&oe=576D5FEE&__gda__=1466900661_fae7f3e0fc33cb6004016954329a845 f

[Spudkopf]

Well, in principle it took a lot of material to build one of the big revetments. I read some where that it took somthing about many thousands of 5 gallon tanks to build a single revetment for Wellingtons in Malta!

It is perhaps better to stay low on polycount using simple shape and use the texture as a "proxy" to get the effect of many tanks.

Coming back to the previous model, here is a comparison between new and old:

and how two revemetments can be combined:


Oh you mean something like this:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlt1/t31.0-8/12768213_961074890643399_5632687303200096016_o.jpg

The lower lods have not been fully reduced as of yet, because I'm experiencing texture mapping issues when I do so, and mapping is still one of those mystical things that only 10 level wizards know how to master.

[Sita]

no he mean that object can be combine in game... no need make new object

[Sita]

but from your model with small changes can be made that dispersal

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12715936_956443224439899_522905997879116841_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

no he mean that object can be combine in game... no need make new object

Yeah I got that, just thought that making a dedicated model would have less polys than overlapping the two singles and tbus less impact on frame hits.

Besides I had few hours to kill and I was trying to cement in some of my new found skills :P

[Sita]

practice is always good) keep up)

alot of objects still need )

[Spudkopf]

but from your model with small changes can be made that dispersal

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12715936_956443224439899_522905997879116841_o.jpg

As the model was already split into to two for the mirroring step all it needs is to be resplit and some caps added and some mapping on those caps. Will have a play tonight.

Practice....... yes with this kind of skill, its a use it or loose it deal.

[Spudkopf]

Expanding on a suggestion from Sita, I've been toying around with concepts for the large C type revetments.

I still need to suck this model into 3ds-Max to remove some of the awkward surfacing, and to degrade some of the sharp edges. May also have to loose some of the barrel detail around the entrance but this gives you a general idea as to what I'm working towards.

Most pictures that I have found of WWII barrel lined revetments (fortifications) are dug into the terrain and the barrels act as shoring material to prevent the earth from collapsing back in, working with this concept I've placed a rammed earth berm feature around the structure.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlt1/v/t1.0-9/12742417_961333303950891_6032671022359729191_n.jpg ?oh=a78871586c19f2c26ad0b0d80a4c7925&oe=57292C81

[Cloyd]

Looks great Spud!

[Pursuivant]

In one of the aerial photos Gitano posted there were some C-shaped revetments with straight sides and wide, possibly flat tops, like old fortifications. They'd be good low poly objects.

Sadly, its hard to make a low poly object using rounded forms, and its hard to create a decent illusion of a rounded form using textures.

[Spudkopf]

Still trying to refine the c type revetment, culled a few polys but then added some, not sure about it yet.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xal1/t31.0-8/12764366_962070827210472_7457302145009507562_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

In one of the aerial photos Gitano posted there were some C-shaped revetments with straight sides and wide, possibly flat tops, like old fortifications. They'd be good low poly objects.

Sadly, its hard to make a low poly object using rounded forms, and its hard to create a decent illusion of a rounded form using textures.

This one......

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12742651_962072343876987_8765232957855334037_n.jpg ?oh=a368c92b5d27436a48813d86cc0c78a3&oe=57611D02

I could probably build that from what I'm currently building.

[Spudkopf]

Oh and remember my first scale drawing.......


https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/12671650_962074183876803_6328376772167112157_o.jpg

[_1SMV_Gitano]

This one......

I could probably build that from what I'm currently building.

These ones too were made of stone. In some cases they were reinforced with earth on the external wall, as the picture shows. There were plenty of these in Axis MTO airfields, mainly in Italy. They should be able to house a medium bomber like e.g. Ju88/He111/CantZ1007

[Spudkopf]

These ones too were made of stone. In some cases they were reinforced with earth on the external wall, as the picture shows. There were plenty of these in Axis MTO airfields, mainly in Italy. They should be able to house a medium bomber like e.g. Ju88/He111/CantZ1007

Just a quick and dirty proof of concept based on the previous model, maybe this design as the default as it will use less polys......

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/12747375_962169043867317_2755332579813534495_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

These ones too were made of stone. In some cases they were reinforced with earth on the external wall

Well thus far I've been designing the large type 3 "C" revetment around the 200 litre oil drum idea, but using a stone wall with rammed earth would be far easier to do and have other benefits like.....

1. Use far less polys

2. Be easier to skin

3. By changing the skin (grass, wood, concrete, etc) the same revetment could be used in other theaters

4. In the end can be made to look overall more realistic at all viewing distances including from inside the cockpit due to less reliance on circular features (IMO)

So I'd probably prefer to go in that direction, sticking to stone/cement for the larger revetment and then instead using the oil drum method to build the smaller type 1 "square walled" revetment which again with different skinning could be re-utilised in multiple theaters?

So what's your opinion?

There were plenty of these in Axis MTO airfields, mainly in Italy. They should be able to house a medium bomber like e.g. Ju88/He111/CantZ1007

Here's the current revised 200 litre oil drum revetment, using basically the existing dimensions of the original design but with a hexagonal internal wall, as you can see still fits a Ju88 or a He111 comfortably.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xal1/v/t1.0-9/12745516_962499893834232_1658069836002085097_n.jpg ?oh=87185d669af901979a61d603bcfe9455&oe=5752ACD5&__gda__=1466983298_36e3d2a41652187131337719df51849 b

[Spudkopf]

Here's a stone one I threw together.....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpl1/t31.0-8/12419231_962575137160041_8858249133731599892_o.jpg

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12745817_962575133826708_874314800551794124_n.jpg? oh=c85d3c1babdafc60e13a530d95636376&oe=57673ED4

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12733607_962575123826709_3676024858278310774_n.jpg ?oh=b2d001e6e686d0dae9c5fbb40f4bf42b&oe=57634180

[Spudkopf]

I Google'd Castelvetrano airfield, Sicily and found this image of the large type 2 Y shaped a revetment located Trapani-Milo.

http://www.forgottenairfields.com/uploads/airfields/italy/sicily/trapani/trapani_milo/milorevetment-2011.jpg

So I decided to do a little aerial reconnaissance and found.....

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12743566_962635163820705_8450151933043027353_n.jpg ?oh=667d0f64cc00176990f1c9c84642cbe7&oe=57660AD8

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12742429_962635167154038_609666042228886876_n.jpg? oh=c348103508b087cb75680c4fa58842f8&oe=575291A3

From these remains I should be able to work out the dimensions and wall thickness for this type of revetment, from the start these pens seem more Y shaped than the the photo interpreters drawing key.

All around the boundaries of the airfield there are numerous piles of scattered rocks, and the odd depression, no doubt remnants of other demolished revetments.

Here's the google map reference, if you want to have a poke around for yourselves:

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Milo,+91100+Trapani+TP,+Italy/@38.0058002,12.5742151,95m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x131962f7f0f070a7:0x20a8c 28bc2deb252

[Sita]

looks like some part missing ...

[Spudkopf]

G'day Sita

The first google map images is the same pen as that in the ground level image.

It is mostly intact and there is enough of the foot print left to work it, there is obviously a rear entrance as seen in the ground photo that splits the revetment into two halves.

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Good finding Spud. The scheme I posted of the "Y" revetment was made indeed from Castelvetrano. It is a post-Husky survey plan made 'on the field' by Aviation Engineers so I would take those dimensions as correct. Nice job in the "C" type!

[Sita]

Nice job in the "C" type!


about C-type ... i still didn't find any photo evidence in internet about that thing and about using fuel barrels in it ... so i have some doubts ...

[Pursuivant]

looks like some part missing ...

Note the big, circular, swampy depression next to one of the revetments - probably a bomb crater. That means that many of the revetments might have suffered damage during the war and might have missing parts.

I like the look of the 2-part "Y" revetment, but it would also make sense to have a "half-Y" ("zig-zag") revetment object to give airfield designers even more options.

It might also make sense to create "revetment parts" which can be mixed to create a variety of historical revetment types. These objects would all have uniform cross sections and vertical ends so that they could easily be butted together. In that case, the needed revetment objects are:

"V" - shaped, single-engined fighter size & medium bomber/twin-engined fighter sized.
"C" - shaped, single-engined fighter size & medium bomber/twin-engined fighter sized.
"Zig-Zag"/"Half Y" - medium bomber/twin-engined fighter size.
Straight berm - same height as the other objects

Textures for all the objects should be North African desert/sandstone, Italian/limestone or tuff. Possibly also "Italian winter" with limestone/tuff flecked with snow.

[Sita]

Possibly also "Italian winter" with limestone/tuff flecked with snow.

you mean also need "Winter" texture?

[Pursuivant]

If they haven't been done yet, there are five distinctive tree types which would be highly appropriate for Mediterranean maps. All of these would be simple, relatively low-poly objects. The only trick is getting the textures right:

Lombardy Poplar (Black Poplar) - these are very common along the edges of fields and rural roads in Italy.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Populus_nigra-bekes.jpg

A similarly shaped tree is:

Mediterranean Cypress - Maybe just a Lombardy Poplar object with a different texture. These are also commonly found along roads.

http://ericafirpo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tuscany-copy.jpg

Olive Tree - fairly common in Italy, rarer in North Africa. (Even better would be a "default" olive orchard texture for some of the "woods".)

http://images.wisegeek.com/olive-tree.jpg

Stone Pine - Another common Mediterranean tree with a distinctive shape. Maybe close enough to the Olive Tree that it could use the same model, but scaled up and with a different texture.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Cambrils_Pi_Rodo_pinus_pinea.jpg/1280px-Cambrils_Pi_Rodo_pinus_pinea.jpg

Date Palm - Shorter, with a fatter trunk, and bushier foliage than the existing coconut palm tree object. Very common in North Africa, especially around oases. (For North Africa, default "woods" textures might default to date palm plantations.)

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/50fd9fc2e4b000014e7ceab9/5183d430e4b065e39b3e3d34/5183d430e4b0046126d1d5ea/1367594035647/pix1.jpg


It would also be very cool if certain road sections on the Italian maps could have auto-generated poplar or cypress trees along them, since until well after WW2, Italian roads were often lined with trees. Many still are. In addition to looking cool, the trees also present a challenge during strafing missions.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/tuscany-cypress-trees-road-landscape-italy-24446544.jpg

[_1SMV_Gitano]

about C-type ... i still didn't find any photo evidence in internet about that thing and about using fuel barrels in it ... so i have some doubts ...

It might have been done with earht/rubble in some cases. About revetments made of petrol tanks I cite directly "Hurricanes over Malta" book by Brian Cull et all.

"In a matter of weeks, structures appeared in profusion as land was requisitioned around Luqa, Takali and Hal Far. [...] and 84 large pens built for Wellingtons and Marylands, and more than 200 smaller versions for Hurricanes and FAA aircraft, [...]. Initially the pens were made with sandbags and rubble, a method soon superseded by the use of discarded 4-gallon petrol cans, [...]. These wee filled with earth and limestone rubble, and used to create walls up to 14 feet high. It took 60000 such cans to construct three walls to house a Wellington [...]".

check also some pictures of Takali were you can have hints of revetments here and there
http://www.forgottenairfields.com/malta/island-of-malta/ta-qali-s390.html
From the few pics availalbe, these were usually square in shape, sometimes with a curved prolongement to cover the open side.

To summarize, my whishlist of MTO revetments is:
- Small V type (stone) - READY by Spudkopf
- Small square type (2 versions: stone or petrol cans or mixed)
- Medium Y type (stone)
- Large C type (internal wall of stone with external earth cover) - WIP by Spudkopf
- Large square (material to be decided)

Having single wall sections would be a plus...

Below I put some pictures of Malta blast pens found on the web

https://vassallohistory.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/image90.jpg

https://no23squadron.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/malta-mosquito.jpg

http://sonicbomb.com/albums/ww2_uk/No_23_Sqn_Mosquito_Malta.jpg

http://maltabuses.piwigo.com/uploads/6/6/o/66oat8hhq4//2012/02/15/20120215233656-c5ef5f36.jpg

http://legendsintheirowntime.com/Content/1943/Sky_GB_4302_Malta_Maryland_p044_W.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Royal_Air_Force_Operations_in_Malta,_Gibraltar_and _the_Mediterranean,_1939-1945._CM5686.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/janswede/Aviation/DSC_0881_zpsbglhqwhv.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/janswede/Aviation/DSC_0878_zpskisrixxk.jpg

[Spudkopf]

Type 2 (Y shaped Revetment.

I started to draw this based on the post-Husky survey plan, however using the dimensions provided the model was starting to give the Colosseum a run for it's money, not to mention the geometry was coming out all wrong, also if all those drawing are meant to be to the same scale, well then there's something wrong there also.

So plan B.

Using Google maps to roughly measure the length and width of the structure in earlier post (which I rounded to the nearest whole number).

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1915531_963092560441632_334911421850454191_n.jpg?o h=59292f344de2f6dbe83c9d55cccacb86&oe=57643E01

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12670919_963092563774965_6302274202586826105_n.jpg ?oh=54b239fff78169fe42080c040c5b195d&oe=576FFED1

I then cut a screen capture of the same image into Illustrator and proceeded to trace out a vector along the centers of the intact wall, I then thickened this line to ascertain the wall thickness (which I worked to be 800mm).

From this I was then able to build a model in SolidWorks:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12743845_963096250441263_7413144656038900301_n.jpg ?oh=b73ed61d22467fbd5f002af87a029928&oe=5755396A&__gda__=1465433571_b69dcd3be1592e10eafc2255b55168b d

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12742551_963096253774596_2233665788625799445_n.jpg ?oh=7bcedc0f7a70ec85d0c9ec2c94f2773d&oe=575F66CE&__gda__=1465175772_c1ca01855a94a5ac44da83093c19066 4

I then saved the Solidworks drawing back to Illustrator in 1:100 scale so I could test the fit the revetment with several familiar Axis mediums.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12794326_963097503774471_3486961916288448636_n.jpg ?oh=4af359a674773867c77e502881d68b23&oe=576D6764

......and all before breakfast.....(well mostly)

[Spudkopf]

To summarize, my whishlist of MTO revetments is:
- Small V type (stone) - READY by Spudkopf
- Small square type (2 versions: stone or petrol cans or mixed)
- Medium Y type (stone)
- Large C type (internal wall of stone with external earth cover) - WIP by Spudkopf
- Large square (material to be decided)



- Small square type (2 versions: stone or petrol cans or mixed), some small square shaped revetments, one constructed of rammed earth with a 200l Oil drum lining, and one just of stone are the next cabs of the rank after the C and Y revetments are completed (the square stone version may even be finished before these).

- Medium Y type (stone) see the above post ;)

[Pursuivant]

you mean also need "Winter" texture?

Technically, yes.

But, average winter temperature for Sicily and most of coastal Southern Italy is just above freezing, which means that it's unlikely that those areas ever see really deep snow.

Typically, for a Mediterranean climate, "snow" means a dusting which goes away quickly once the temperature warms up.

http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-piazza-armerina-town-in-sicily-in-winter-with-snow-italy-europe-75500272.jpg

Instead, these regions get rain and MUD! in the winter which could rival the Rasputitsa in its ability to bring military ops to the a standstill.

http://23aa11d28fcf2eb980f2-650f7b390294ee3bc134c877ae8a4be4.r52.cf1.rackcdn.c om/2002.337.269_1.590x590.marked.jpg

In the north, and in the mountains, it's a different story. For example, recently, Capracotta, a town in Central Italy, set a world record for one day snowfall!

But, unless TD has a map of Firenze, Milano, or the "Gustav Line" in the works, a "winter" texture for Italian or North African objects means "Mediterranean winter," not "deep winter."

Maybe there should be two winter textures - "light winter" (AKA Spring/Autumn for N. Europe and Russia) with just a bit of snow and "deep winter" with lots of snow.

[nic727]

The only problem is that how do you park in that? In Il2 1946 we can't go backward lol.

[Spudkopf]

The only problem is that how do you park in that? In Il2 1946 we can't go backward lol.

Simple solution, just restrict your flying to the Heinkel Lerche :P

[Pursuivant]

It might have been done with earht/rubble in some cases. About revetments made of petrol tanks I cite directly "Hurricanes over Malta" book by Brian Cull et all.

Given how "thirsty" most aircraft are, I can believe that 4 gallon petrol cans piled up quick. Since they'd otherwise be waste, I could see why they got converted into improvised sandbags.

The only problem is that a texture that uses 4-gallon petrol cans is necessarily limited to RAF and Commonwealth airfields. To simulate USAAF, Free French AF, Regia Aeronautica, and Luftwaffe bases, a "stone", "sandbag", or even "galvanized corrugated sheet," wall texture would be more generic.

In areas other than Malta, my guess is that it would be much more common to use sandbags, and/or stone, which was cheap, abundant, and could easily be moved around with a bulldozer.


From the few pics availalbe, these were usually square in shape, sometimes with a curved prolongement to cover the open side.

My guess is that there is a pre-war RAF engineering manual which provides specifications for "square" ("[-shaped") revetments. Likewise, there's probably are forgotten Italian and German manuals which lays out specifications for Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe airfields. The 1941 USAAF Airfield Engineering manual is online. I can provide a link if there's interest.


To summarize, my whishlist of MTO revetments is:
- Small V type (stone) - READY by Spudkopf
- Small square type (2 versions: stone or petrol cans or mixed)
- Medium Y type (stone)
- Large C type (internal wall of stone with external earth cover) - WIP by Spudkopf
- Large square (material to be decided)

Many of these objects could be created by retexturing existing objects. In particular, the Large Square revetment already exists. Just give it sandstone, tuffo, "Mediterranean Winter/Spring/Autumn", and "Deep Winter" textures and it's ready to go.

In terms of actual 3D, what's needed is Small V, Small Square, Medium Y, Large C, and Large Square, plus "do it yourself" revetment parts.

[Sita]

nice and fast)

[Spudkopf]

.....did someone say, a square stone revetment?

Using the skills that Sita was so very kind enough to demonstrate, I was able to quickly convert the original V shaped revetment into the square one you see below, the bonus here is that the skinning is more or less done already.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/t31.0-8/12748018_963348470416041_9204046499199279100_o.jpg

nice and fast)

It may seem fast, but I'm still only running at not even a 100th of the speed that you can work, however a key to my apparent speed is my use SolidWorks (SW) to do a lot of the grunt design work before dragging it into the time sucking black hole that is Max, even the above square pen was made easier by creating a model in SW that was then imported into Max, this I could then use as a template to adjust the existing V shaped pen's vertices.

[Spudkopf]

....mmmm could this be a square revetment?

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12790965_963361453748076_8798153501082343057_n.jpg ?oh=ec38d9e9a5723e6dc8f5a34099bb6ec3&oe=57609914

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12744271_963362440414644_2737516615923354536_n.jpg ?oh=2e2b88ad561c65f8195e750eb3200ee5&oe=5754283B

Located at:Aeroporto Boccadifalco (Castelvetrano airfield?), Sicily

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Aeroporto+Boccadifalco/@38.1123184,13.3197097,36m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x1319ef001006520d:0x468bf 7ed6ca67a1a

[_1SMV_Gitano]

- Small square type (2 versions: stone or petrol cans or mixed), some small square shaped revetments, one constructed of rammed earth with a 200l Oil drum lining, and one just of stone are the next cabs of the rank after the C and Y revetments are completed (the square stone version may even be finished before these).

- Medium Y type (stone) see the above post ;)

Excellent!!!

[_1SMV_Gitano]

....mmmm could this be a square revetment?

Boccadifalco was the old Palermo airport. It is still in use by small aircraft. I have to check the schemes to see if it corresponds. But 5m seems a bit small to me. That one in particular could have be used to house any other equipment like e.g. petrol tanks or motor vehicles...

As a rule of thumb, I would keep the same base aperture of the small V revetment.

[Spudkopf]

Boccadifalco was the old Palermo airport. It is still in use by small aircraft. I have to check the schemes to see if it corresponds. But 5m seems a bit small to me. That one in particular could have be used to house any other equipment like e.g. petrol tanks or motor vehicles...

As a rule of thumb, I would keep the same base aperture of the small V revetment.

Oopps my BAD - been so backwards and forwards with scales this evening, I totally missed that it was only 5.4 metres.

But to belay your fears, I based the dimensions for the model on those from the diagram so it is slightly narrower and shorter than the V type, but due to having parallel walls it can afford to be, see below:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlt1/v/t1.0-9/12798961_963403880410500_1289620000438503791_n.jpg ?oh=b68522a844db610a81b5ac5949282a7b&oe=5753C374

But if you want it bigger let me know!

[_1SMV_Gitano]

I would keep the dimensions as they are now :)

[Spudkopf]

I decided to build the Lods 00 through 03 for Y type before I hit the sack, (just gone 01:00 so it's a tad late considering I've been up since 05:00 yesterday).

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/12764798_963432857074269_2120686726886171945_o.jpg

As it is a quite simple, yet at the same time a complex shape, I could not make a difference between Lods 02 and 03 without insurring a drastic change in the geometrics, that I'm concerned may cause a significant pop, so will need further guidance here.

[_1SMV_Gitano]

If I remember correctly the change between LOD2 and LOD3 happens usually at few kilometers so any simpler shape would not harm. But I step aside here and wait for more wiser comments... anyone(Sita?) could say something on this? :mrgreen:

[Sita]

don't hurry ...

need map and paint first lod .... as i say already ... for now it's double work ...

[Spudkopf]

don't hurry ...

need map and paint first lod .... as i say already ... for now it's double work ...

.....sorry was not trying to jump the gun here, the above double work was just more modelling skill practice on my part, as I'm just making sure that I have the lod creation techniques established and locked away and refining my work flow process, agiain sorry for causing any concussion.

[Sita]

ok ok))

[Pursuivant]

It may seem fast, but I'm still only running at not even a 100th of the speed that you can work, however a key to my apparent speed is my use SolidWorks (SW) to do a lot of the grunt design work before dragging it into the time sucking black hole that is Max, even the above square pen was made easier by creating a model in SW that was then imported into Max, this I could then use as a template to adjust the existing V shaped pen's vertices.

Given that SW is probably the better 3D design program, your workflow makes loads of sense! There's loads of animation and rendering stuff in 3ds Max that's overkill for static objects.

[Spudkopf]

U type revetment of mixed construction - stone rear wall, rubble/cement filled drums for the sides walls and with rammed earth/rubble back fill.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/t31.0-8/12779258_964925243591697_4280940796402486426_o.jpg

May be to many polys though?

[_1SMV_Gitano]

If poly count is a problem, stone or earth walls may be a safer solution. By the way, as pointed out by Pursuivant, we already have a big U/square revetment (it takes a B-24 easily). A medium sized one for could fill a gap, taking the Wellington or the B-25 as reference.

[Pursuivant]

If poly count is a problem, stone or earth walls may be a safer solution. By the way, as pointed out by Pursuivant, we already have a big U/square revetment (it takes a B-24 easily). A medium sized one for could fill a gap, taking the Wellington or the B-25 as reference.

For a specifically Maltese object, compare it against an A-20 (standing in for a Baltimore), Beaufighter, Beaufort, Mosquito, or Wellington, since all those types were used on Malta.

There are some good pix of "just stone" square revetments on Malta containing some of the types of I've mentioned, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds3GC_zxWfE

[Spudkopf]

If poly count is a problem, stone or earth walls may be a safer solution. By the way, as pointed out by Pursuivant, we already have a big U/square revetment (it takes a B-24 easily). A medium sized one for could fill a gap, taking the Wellington or the B-25 as reference.

Sorry been a tad busy today, but the above is WIP, Did some modelling this morning but as I was trying to be a little inventive, I ran into a surface issue that I was unable to solve in SW, ironically though it should be relatively easy to fix in Max. Will post an image later this evening.

[Spudkopf]

Just toying around with some ideas for a medium sized U type stone revetment, partially inspired by shots from Malta.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/t31.0-8/12771992_965608120190076_1668837593075794114_o.jpg

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/12764807_965608140190074_752313633707453295_o.jpg

Also from the same Google search.......

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Royal_Air_Force_Operations_in_Malta,_Gibraltar_and _the_Mediterranean,_1939-1945._CM5685.jpg

[Spudkopf]

Plan "B"

A cornerstone (pardon the eventual pun) of SolidWorks training is the term design intent, in other words your design should always be built with the end result in mind.

After having to wrestle the existing medium U type model in Max I decided to go back and redesign the model from scratch keeping the ultimate destination of the file in mind, I abandoned my usual design practices and focused on building the model as if I was using Max.

I also decided to abandon the poly hungry end caps I'd been toying with for a less ambitious, but yet still quite effective (IMO) lower poly count treatment.

Of course the true test of this technique will be when I import this new model into Max tonight, if successful though, I plan to utilise the same method on the small U and large C type revetments designs.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfl1/t31.0-8/12795190_965876786829876_5625831817130218371_o.jpg

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/t31.0-8/12764724_965876790163209_8500686062670407244_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

Revised C type.....

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12803102_966050633479158_3187471499893874939_n.jpg ?oh=a3f44e809d9bce0a5e3f9b685f6d2a9b&oe=5769B834

Here's a perspective front on view mocked up in Photoshop, as I'm now only designing 1/2 of of each structure.

https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12794945_966050646812490_2240825972305168319_o.jpg

[Spudkopf]

Both models came into max far easier than past models, so the extra effort spent building the SW models seems to be paying off (an ounce of prep' as they say), below is the medium U type now in max and ready for the next stage:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/12819424_966171076800447_586129923605016830_o.jpg

The C type being a more complex item came in quite well, I only found the one easily fixed tear, which is quite remarkable seeing how many trim operations I did in SW, to get to the end model, however I'm not entirely happy with the shape of the rammed earth surroundings yet and want to tweak it a tad more in SW tomorrow.

[Spudkopf]

Latest revision of C type........


https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/t31.0-8/12772000_966949456722609_4917166995493383640_o.jpg

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Nice!! I'm looking forward to have these into the game and use them :)

In the meantime, I working on the extended Tunisia map template. When I feell it worth showing something I will open a new thread with dev updates for that map.