Larger maps

[Soldier_Fortune]

Hi all!

IMHO the added B-24D diserves a map according with its operational story, where long range bomb missions might be done.

Actually the largest map we have is "Gulf of Finland"... but that region never was an operational scenary for the Allies.

I've found this map named La Chute (The Fall) (http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=42939.0) which is tailored to those requirements... for the WTO, at least.

This map covers from W of London to Berlin and Dresden, and from N of London to S of Paris, including Belgium, Netherland and S of Denmark. Its design is mainly focused on long range bombing and it has a lot of potential targets.

This weekend I've used this map to fly a B-17 (v4.12.2+HSFX 7 mod), taking-off at Raydon (England) to bomb Berlin, and RTB.

The complete mission lasted about... 6 hours!!

The idea was to test my skills on air navigation in as most realistic conditions as possible: no waypoints at all; instead, using printed maps, beacons, my own preflight planning and an E6B 'whizz wheel' for inflight calculations; windy and cloudy weather conditions.

In short: the experience was very close to what many crews of bombers told. But more comfortable ... you know: drinking a beer, or ordering a pizza... all what a real crew couldn't do while they were flying. :-P

This map also could be used for to design LW missions over London, Coventry, etc. (Battle of England); or for a fictional operation Sea Lion; or for Overlord; or for whichever mission/campaign that a creative designer could imagine.


Perhaps TD could ask to the map's author (Spit973) his permission to add 'La_Chute' to the set of maps with the next patch. :cool:

[Nil]

This is really a nice map for heavies bombers like the B24, good point!
It would be very nice to have it on the next patch

[Monguse]

Hi all!

IMHO the added B-24D diserves a map according with its operational story, where long range bomb missions might be done...

SF, actually that's one reason the New Guinea New Britain map is in 413. B24's operated from the Northern Territory (Australia), Dobodura as well as later from Nazdab. If you really want to try out a long mission, take off from Dobodura with B24D to bomb Wewak or Rabaul then land back home.

[Pursuivant]

Actually the largest map we have is "Gulf of Finland"... but that region never was an operational scenery for the Allies.

That depends on your definition of "Allies" - there were a few Soviets fighting in that area, although they were mostly skirmishing with the Germans in the far eastern portion of the map, near the the mouth of the Neva river. ;)


This map covers from W of London to Berlin and Dresden, and from N of London to S of Paris, including Belgium, Netherland and S of Denmark. Its design is mainly focused on long range bombing and it has a lot of potential targets.

It's up to the modder to submit the map to TD for inclusion in the game. As long as the map meets the quality standards, there's nothing inherently wrong with having a "slimmed down" map of Northern or Western Europe at 1:1 scale.

Maps that would really work well for the B-24D would be those that mostly feature large stretches of ocean with bits of land at the edges. For example, the North Atlantic from Scotland/N. Ireland to the tip of Iceland, or the tip of Cornwall to the Northern end of the Bay of Biscay.

[Marabekm]

Here's the problem for large maps in my opinion.

They map builder spend a lot of time designing, building and testing the large maps. Like the Solomons and New Guinea/ New Britian map. But when it comes to playing coops or dogfights, most if not all players want to only fly about 5 minutes before the action starts. There are very few of us that actually enjoy the flying part. Most just want to hop in and start shooting.

So on the larger maps that results in about a 20-30 km square area that is used while the map makers spent all this time on the other areas that will never gut used.
Dolphin

[Soldier_Fortune]

SF, actually that's one reason the New Guinea New Britain map is in 413. B24's operated from the Northern Territory (Australia), Dobodura as well as later from Nazdab. If you really want to try out a long mission, take off from Dobodura with B24D to bomb Wewak or Rabaul then land back home.

Hi Monguse:

Of course, I've played some long range missions (made by myself) to enjoy the B-24, flying that map.

But IMHO New Guinea - New Britain is amazing for air-naval engagements, envolving a lot of warships, land and/or carrier based airctafts, and flying boats.

For strategic bombing, NG-NB map has too few and too small targets. Rabaul, i.e., only has a bunch of houses and an airfield: good targets for B-25s or A-20s if they had sufficient range.

Really I miss a map like La Chute by two main reasons:

- Fun: This map may be used almost endlessly. It has many big cities (London, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Anthwerpen, Koln, Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin, etc), and a lot of small cities and towns which had factories historically targeted by Allied bombers; and also it has strategic targets like Peenemünde.

- Epic and realism: of course, all military veterans deserve the greatest respect. But, IMHO, the strategic bombing campaign in the Pacific lacks the epic of similar campaigns in the ETW. USA counts 407,000 military KIA only in Europe, and UK counts 403,000; over 100,000 of them were Allied bomber crewmen, and 12,000 bombers were shot down. Certain statistics are very impresive: the Tour of Duty for all the heavy bombers along the war (30 missions) did produce 71% of KIA/MIA; for medium bombers (50 missions) did produce 48% of KIA/MIA.
A map like La Chute can give us a more accurate idea about the difficulties, risks and dangers those guys faced to reach their targets and come back in one piece.

But only it's my opinion and my taste. ;)

[Soldier_Fortune]

...
Maps that would really work well for the B-24D would be those that mostly feature large stretches of ocean with bits of land at the edges. For example, the North Atlantic from Scotland/N. Ireland to the tip of Iceland, or the tip of Cornwall to the Northern end of the Bay of Biscay.

Why...?:confused:

AFAIK, the B-24s were used to close the North Atlantic gap against the U-Boote, and they were equiped with surface radars to spot them. (Not with bombs).

The only reason I can guess for not to do big land maps (about 1000 x 600 km) is a technical limitation: more land means more objects; and such maps may takes ages to upload in the FMB. And, when a player would try to play it, he could get a CTD. A big surface of water solves the problem because it is only a flat texture.

But the guy who has designed La_Chute, has solved that problem in a smart way: the most of the map is only texture: also cities and towns.
He placed objects only in few points, but he didn't populate the whole map to avoid instabilities.

At ground level or flying at very low altitude, the visual effect is like if a city is "painted on the floor". But if you are flying over 3000 m or higher, you will see the city with a realistic appearence. [Maskirovka...!!:grin:]

A mission designer only would need to place the relevant objects using the FMB, according to his mission script. For buildings, the mission designer only need to choose any which fits the "coloured shadow" of the ground texture among those of the Objects list.

As I told in my first post, La-Chute may be played smoothly with the highest graphic settings. I used many planes at the same time, and several of them were activated by triggers... :cool:

[Soldier_Fortune]

Here's the problem for large maps in my opinion.

They map builder spend a lot of time designing, building and testing the large maps. Like the Solomons and New Guinea/ New Britian map. But when it comes to playing coops or dogfights, most if not all players want to only fly about 5 minutes before the action starts. There are very few of us that actually enjoy the flying part. Most just want to hop in and start shooting.

So on the larger maps that results in about a 20-30 km square area that is used while the map makers spent all this time on the other areas that will never gut used.
Dolphin

You are right.

But, as I told in my first post, that map is focused to heavy bombers missions to be played off-line, not dogfights.

Of course, it also may be played on-line... but I agreed with you it is too big for that purpose.

However, there are many players who never play on-line and they find other ways to enjoy this sim: just like me. ;)

[Tolwyn]

Woah, Francis.
Speak for yourself. I don't recall voting you in as the defacto expert on "how we all like to fly" this sim!?

Heh.

Here's the problem for large maps in my opinion.

They map builder spend a lot of time designing, building and testing the large maps. Like the Solomons and New Guinea/ New Britian map. But when it comes to playing coops or dogfights, most if not all players want to only fly about 5 minutes before the action starts. There are very few of us that actually enjoy the flying part. Most just want to hop in and start shooting.

So on the larger maps that results in about a 20-30 km square area that is used while the map makers spent all this time on the other areas that will never gut used.
Dolphin

[dimlee]

Many thanks to topicstarter for this hint.
I just downloaded CUP and has found West.Eur La Chute in map's list.
From Hull to Prague - plenty of space, indeed.

My personal wish is full Black Sea map. Including Azov, Romania with Constanza and Ploesti. And including Bosporus - for alternative history scenarios as post or pre WWII conflicts around Turkish Straits.

[Sita]

My personal wish is full Black Sea map.

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/17840/107711741.a/0_e5fa7_3e06ab3e_XXXL.jpg (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/sitniknikita/album/264829/view/941991)

not full but in that dirrection ...

[Soldier_Fortune]

Many thanks to topicstarter for this hint.
I just downloaded CUP and has found West.Eur La Chute in map's list.
From Hull to Prague - plenty of space, indeed.

My personal wish is full Black Sea map. Including Azov, Romania with Constanza and Ploesti. And including Bosporus - for alternative history scenarios as post or pre WWII conflicts around Turkish Straits.

Don't mention it, mate.

My personal wish would be a map from Benghazi to Ploesti for to play the operation Tidal Wave...:grin:

[Soldier_Fortune]

not full but in that dirrection ...

A big WOW, Sita!!

By the position of the vertical scroll bar in the picture, I could figured out your map reaches the Turkey border: the same scenary than Flaming Cliffs...:cool:

[Pursuivant]

AFAIK, the B-24s were used to close the North Atlantic gap against the U-Boote, and they were equiped with surface radars to spot them. (Not with bombs).

The Atlantic maps I proposed were just examples. The idea is that if you want a large map, it loads quicker and is easier on framerates if it's mostly filled with empty water.

Equally legitimate map choices might maps that includes a bit of Queensland, AUS and parts of the southern coast of New Guinea, Okinawa to the southern tip of Kyushu, or Tunisian coast from Tunis to Sfax then east to Malta and the southern coast of Sicily.

As for anti U-boat operations, the B-24s (and other long-range patrol craft - like the Sunderland and Wellington) were equipped with a combination of depth charges (and/or bombs, sometimes rockets), plus surface radar and occasionally weapons systems light Leigh lights.

But the guy who has designed La_Chute, has solved that problem in a smart way: the most of the map is only texture: also cities and towns.

The problem is that, by official IL2 standard, that's "half a map." You can't just create city plates and forest textures and then not include cities and forests. I think that's an artifact of IL2's heritage as a low-altitude "mud moving" flight simulator.

It would require an executive decision on TD's part to allow maps that favor high altitude long-range bomber ops, but at the expense of having "empty" cities and no forests when you go down low.

Personally, I think that such maps would be a good idea, now that we've got planes like the Pe-8 and B-24D to play with.

If we ever get proper night fighter ops in the game, TD is going to have to think pretty hard about this issue, because for night fighter operations the important things are effects (lights, flames, flares, radar ops), loiter time (often over a large area) and traditional "eye candy" scenery just isn't as important.

The only other way around the map size issue would be for the game to somehow recognize when aircraft are moving off one map and automatically load up the map of the adjacent territory. But, that would require huge amounts of development work, plus all new maps of consistent shape and size.

[Pursuivant]

My personal wish would be a map from Benghazi to Ploesti for to play the operation Tidal Wave...:grin:

+1

Of course, the map would have to be scaled way down.

[Pursuivant]

But, IMHO, the strategic bombing campaign in the Pacific lacks the epic of similar campaigns in the ETW.

That's the inherent problem with the game - it's at base a simulator best designed to model low altitude, short range, tactical missions on the Eastern Front. High altitude operations are tacked on, and strategic bombing is an afterthought at best.

I'd love to have a 21st century update to the old Microprose game "B-17 Flying Fortress" that accurately models all the complexities of flying strategic, high altitude, heavy bomber missions in the ETO, including things like human factors (frostbite, hypoxia, frosted up windows, guns jammed due to cold, panic, getting lost, crew experience).

I'd happily alternate between running a bomber crew, flying escort fighters, and lining up my staffel to try to knock down a few "dicke auto."

Sadly, nobody seems to want to make that sim.

USA counts 407,000 military KIA only in Europe, and UK counts 403,000; over 100,000 of them were Allied bomber crewmen, and 12,000 bombers were shot down.

A trick question: Which US service lost more men in WW2, USAAF or USMC? (Mostly) guaranteed to win bar bets with Marines.

[shelby]

not full but in that dirrection ...Is this a project for the DT?

[Sita]

yep

[shelby]

yepAre there other projects like this one?

[Soldier_Fortune]

...

A trick question: Which US service lost more men in WW2, USAAF or USMC? (Mostly) guaranteed to win bar bets with Marines.

Asking your question, I've found these statistics:

From the USMC website:

KIA: 19,733 (22.7%)
WIA: 67,207 (77.3%)
Total casualties: 86,940 (100%)

.......................

From a .pdf document [USAAF Casualties In European, North African, and Mediterranean Theaters of Operation, 1942-1946: Final Report 1953]:

KIA: 33,802 (71.1%)
WIA: 13,727 (28.9%)
Total casualties: 47,529 (100%)

For all Theaters:

KIA: 44,785 (70.9%)
WIA: 18,364 (29.1%)
Total casualties: 63,149 (100%)

...............................


Well... these numbers are showing the USMC had more total casualties than the USAAF. But they also seem the air warfare was a more deadly job than the fighting in the jungle.

[Pursuivant]

Well... these numbers are showing the USMC had more total casualties than the USAAF. But they also seem the air warfare was a more deadly job than the fighting in the jungle.

Not to get off topic, but factoring in non-combat deaths, the USAAF lost more men. Flying was a (relatively) dangerous business in the 1940s, and learning to fly was even more risky.

But, in terms of battle casualties, I'd have to give the USMC the edge.

[Buster_Dee]

No Western Europe prohibition remaining in the TD contract? I thought the "good stuff" was still off limits.

[Sita]

No Western Europe prohibition remaining in the TD contract? I thought the "good stuff" was still off limits.

actually not ... and as far i know Gitano already working on Channel map ...

[gaunt1]

actually not ... and as far i know Gitano already working on Channel map ...

Great news!

That would be really awesome! + if only we had later He-111 variants, flyable Do-217, Typhoon, Spitfire Mk.1, later version of Hurricane Mk.1, Fw-190G... Sorry, just dreaming :)

[Soldier_Fortune]

Great news!

That would be really awesome! + if only we had later He-111 variants, flyable Do-217, Typhoon, Spitfire Mk.1, later version of Hurricane Mk.1, Fw-190G... Sorry, just dreaming :)

Spitfire Mk. I...!? :eek:

The "IL2 Universe" can no longer tolerate one more Spit!

But the Gloster Meteor would be a good (and needed, IMHO !!) add, instead. :cool:

[shelby]

It is good to have new maps but it is better to come with new campaigns. It is pity for offline players to not fly historical campaigns in the new maps :(

[robday]

and as far i know Gitano already working on Channel map ...

Great news, a channel map has been needed for a long time.

[IceFire]

Spitfire Mk. I...!? :eek:

The "IL2 Universe" can no longer tolerate one more Spit!

But the Gloster Meteor would be a good (and needed, IMHO !!) add, instead. :cool:

I used to do a ton of dogfight scenarios and the one that I got over and over again was ... "Do the BOB" and I'd explain why we didn't have the planeset for that. A Mark I Spit would be all I need to really make it work tho.

At this point I doubt anyone would hardly mind although you never know :)

[Pursuivant]

The "IL2 Universe" can no longer tolerate one more Spit!

Why not? The Spitfire was involved in WW2 from the first day to the last, was built in huge numbers, was the premiere fighter for one of the major nations involved in WW2, served with half a dozen other air forces, and saw service on literally every front. In many ways, it's the Allied equivalent of the Bf-109.

We don't need every Spitfire model ever produced, but the Mk I would be a worthy addition, as would the F XIIC & F XIVC.

I'm not saying that planes like the Gloster Meteor wouldn't be welcome, but the lack of early and late war Spitfires is a bit like not including any Bf-109E models, or any Bf-109G or K model after the G-6.

[Soldier_Fortune]

I used to do a ton of dogfight scenarios and the one that I got over and over again was ... "Do the BOB" and I'd explain why we didn't have the planeset for that. A Mark I Spit would be all I need to really make it work tho.

At this point I doubt anyone would hardly mind although you never know :)

Ok.

But probably you would need a bit more than the Spit Mk.I, IMO.

If you had the right planes set (Mk. I included) to design a 'BoB campaign' in the stock IL2 v4.X... what map would you use? ¿Normandy...? :confused:

I think the request "do the BoB" couldn't be attended at all by the main limitation to do it... the lack of maps for such scenary.

Well.. . a map like La_Chute might give some room to design that campaign to be played off-line. Or at least to have a map of the S of England to play it on-line and off-line.



Why not? The Spitfire was involved in WW2 from the first day to the last, was built in huge numbers, was the premiere fighter for one of the major nations involved in WW2, served with half a dozen other air forces, and saw service on literally every front. In many ways, it's the Allied equivalent of the Bf-109.

We don't need every Spitfire model ever produced, but the Mk I would be a worthy addition, as would the F XIIC & F XIVC.

I'm not saying that planes like the Gloster Meteor wouldn't be welcome, but the lack of early and late war Spitfires is a bit like not including any Bf-109E models, or any Bf-109G or K model after the G-6.


My intention was not to create an off-topic in my own thread, or snubbing the memory of the glorious Spit.:grin:

But today we have about 13 subcategories of Spitfire, plus another 2 for the Seafire. And I think we have enough of them for a sim like this.

The same can be said about the Bf-109 (15 subcategories), or the Yak (18 subcategories).

What news would add the Spit Mk 1 when compared with other Spitfires we already have, apart from being a historical model?

The time to develop new aircrafts, is currently voluntary and scarce.
And there are planes that still we do not have, even for the AI.

Perhaps the Avro-Lancaster (other old glory of the RAF: performed more than 165,000 sorties along the war) would be a better add-on than other Spitfire... or than the Gloster Meteor also. :rolleyes:

But finally TD will have the last official word about all the matters related with IL2.:)

[majorfailure]

Ok.
But probably you would need a bit more than the Spit Mk.I, IMO.

Early Bf109 and Fw190 would not hurt, Do-17 and others.

What news would add the Spit Mk 1 when compared with other Spitfires we already have, apart from being a historical model?


Early war armament. 8*0.303.

[dimlee]

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/17840/107711741.a/0_e5fa7_3e06ab3e_XXXL.jpg (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/sitniknikita/album/264829/view/941991)

not full but in that dirrection ...

Yes, it's cool one.

[dimlee]

Don't mention it, mate.

My personal wish would be a map from Benghazi to Ploesti for to play the operation Tidal Wave...:grin:

Real time. Return. ;)

[IceFire]

Ok.

But probably you would need a bit more than the Spit Mk.I, IMO.

If you had the right planes set (Mk. I included) to design a 'BoB campaign' in the stock IL2 v4.X... what map would you use? ¿Normandy...? :confused:

I think the request "do the BoB" couldn't be attended at all by the main limitation to do it... the lack of maps for such scenary.

Well.. . a map like La_Chute might give some room to design that campaign to be played off-line. Or at least to have a map of the S of England to play it on-line and off-line.






My intention was not to create an off-topic in my own thread, or snubbing the memory of the glorious Spit.:grin:

But today we have about 13 subcategories of Spitfire, plus another 2 for the Seafire. And I think we have enough of them for a sim like this.

The same can be said about the Bf-109 (15 subcategories), or the Yak (18 subcategories).

What news would add the Spit Mk 1 when compared with other Spitfires we already have, apart from being a historical model?

The time to develop new aircrafts, is currently voluntary and scarce.
And there are planes that still we do not have, even for the AI.

Perhaps the Avro-Lancaster (other old glory of the RAF: performed more than 165,000 sorties along the war) would be a better add-on than other Spitfire... or than the Gloster Meteor also. :rolleyes:

But finally TD will have the last official word about all the matters related with IL2.:)

Lots of online folks just want to dogfight planes and so we've done Battle of Britain related scenarios before using all manners of maps as a stand in. I know that's an anathema to some but it explains the desire. To do it properly I'd still need the a couple of extra planes but the main ones are all there otherwise.

Really the Spitfire can be divided into the V, VIII, IX, and Seafire. Everything else is an armament variation or a wing variation. If we wanted completeness then we are missing the Mark I/II and the XIV. It'd be like having the entire Yak lineup except the Yak-3 and Yak-9U or the entire Bf109 lineup except the K-4. It just never came to be unfortunately and I say that truly because something like the XIV is quite a different beast than the Merlin types.

So... we could stand to have a couple more Spitfires but I can write you a long list of types that I would also like to see from the Me410 to the Ki-44 to the A-26 or the Halifax or Lancaster. I'd be interested in any of those :)

[Pursuivant]

Lots of online folks just want to dogfight planes and so we've done Battle of Britain related scenarios before using all manners of maps as a stand in.

Ignoring the obvious lack of a suitable map, it's already possible to do BoB scenarios using the Hurricane I, Bf-109E-4 (I know, a bit late for the battle, Bf-109E-3 would be ideal), Ju-87B-2, He-111H-2, Ju-88A-2, Beaufort II, & Blenheim IV. Add in the M.S.406 and use the Ardennes Summer map for Battle of France scenarios.

Obviously, there's a Spitfire I-shaped hole in our hearts, but we don't NEED that plane to create exciting and realistic scenarios.

As for new planes in the game, I'm in favor of anything with wings and a cockpit, as long as it actually flew sometime between 1939 and 1945!

[gaunt1]

Channel map would be useful not only for BoB, but rather for a previously unexplored 1941-43 time frame. When brits first encountered the Fw-190, or the appearance of more advanced german bombers, like Do-217, or later He-111 variants. Also the Fw-190G raids, and the Typhoons that countered this threat. I think its much more interesting than BoB itself.

[Pursuivant]

Channel map would be useful not only for BoB, but rather for a previously unexplored 1941-43 time frame. When brits first encountered the Fw-190, or the appearance of more advanced german bombers, like Do-217, or later He-111 variants. Also the Fw-190G raids, and the Typhoons that countered this threat. I think its much more interesting than BoB itself.

Agreed. The English Channel/SE England taking in a triangle between Dunkirk, Dieppe & London is one of the critical maps for WW2 aerial operations. In one form or another, that area saw constant aerial action from 1939-45. While the Battle of Britain gets all the attention, there were many other important air operations in the area from 1939-45.

[KG26_Alpha]

I asked for BoB Map years ago and was told (true or not) due to some kind of agreement between IL2 1946 and Cliffs of Dover (at that time) any such map would not be made available in the official IL2 1946 game.

So unless the agreement has expired "officially" its not/is possible now ??

[IceFire]

Ignoring the obvious lack of a suitable map, it's already possible to do BoB scenarios using the Hurricane I, Bf-109E-4 (I know, a bit late for the battle, Bf-109E-3 would be ideal), Ju-87B-2, He-111H-2, Ju-88A-2, Beaufort II, & Blenheim IV. Add in the M.S.406 and use the Ardennes Summer map for Battle of France scenarios.

Obviously, there's a Spitfire I-shaped hole in our hearts, but we don't NEED that plane to create exciting and realistic scenarios.

As for new planes in the game, I'm in favor of anything with wings and a cockpit, as long as it actually flew sometime between 1939 and 1945!

We don't need it but the Hurricane I is not an equal to the Bf109E-4... so everyone flies on the Blue team and I get a headache :)

[Soldier_Fortune]

Breaking a lance in favor of the Spitfire Mk I, it shouldn't be so difficult to model and add it in a next patch.

The main parts of the common models for all the Spits, are made: graphics, skins and all the other technical properties.

It would be a simple matter of to take a latter model, to change some of its FM properties (air speed, ROC, corner speed, etc), to change its weaponry by 8x.303 MGs... and we would have the earliest operative Spit. :roll:

[Pursuivant]

We don't need it but the Hurricane I is not an equal to the Bf109E-4... so everyone flies on the Blue team and I get a headache :)

True! For scenario balance, I think that you'd need more Hurricanes than Bf-109. That's not very realistic, though, unless it was a very good day for the RAF.

[Pursuivant]

I asked for BoB Map years ago and was told (true or not) due to some kind of agreement between IL2 1946 and Cliffs of Dover (at that time) any such map would not be made available in the official IL2 1946 game.

Once upon a time, there were prohibitions on BoB or Korean War content.

But, since CloD has come and gone, and 1c has sold the IL2 franchise to 777 Studios, IIRC, there are no longer any restrictions.

[Pursuivant]

Breaking a lance in favor of the Spitfire Mk I, it shouldn't be so difficult to model and add it in a next patch.

It should be incredibly easy. Back in the day, the Spitfire Mk I was the first modded plane in the game for the reasons you mentioned.

[Derda508]

It would be a simple matter of to take a latter model, to change some of its FM properties (air speed, ROC, corner speed, etc), to change its weaponry by 8x.303 MGs... and we would have the earliest operative Spit. :roll:

I realy would like to have a Ia and IIa in the game, but even between those early models, there are some differences in the cockpit (fuel gauges), so its not that simple. Early War scenarios in the West (phony war, France BoB) are a lot of fun (that´s why I play Cliffs online) and having some nice long offline campaigns in Il-2 would be a dream come true.
Large Maps covering eastern France and western Germany would be very interesting for later war bombing raids as well.

[KG26_Alpha]

I asked for BoB Map years ago and was told (true or not)
due to some kind of agreement between IL2 1946 and Cliffs of Dover (at that time)
any such map would not be made available in the official IL2 1946 game.

Once upon a time, there were prohibitions on BoB or Korean War content.

But, since CloD has come and gone, and 1c has sold the IL2 franchise to 777 Studios, IIRC, there are no longer any restrictions.

Correct,
map is in progress.

actually not ... and as far i know Gitano already working on Channel map ...

[Pursuivant]

Large Maps covering eastern France and western Germany would be very interesting for later war bombing raids as well.

My choices:

Ruhr Valley -focused on Essen, but taking in the area from Dortmund to Koeln including parts of the Rhine. That would be about the size of the Berlin map that's currently in the game. This area was the scene of many early to mid-war RAF raids, including the famous "Thousand Plane" raid on Cologne. Later, it was the focus of 8th Air Force raids.

German North Sea Coast - From Emden to Bremerhaven (perhaps Hamburg). This map could be a bit bigger since the area isn't as heavily built up. This area was the main focus of RAF and USAAF bombing raids against U-boat production facilities.

[Buster_Dee]

Ruhr, Hamburg--I like :cool:

[dimlee]

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/17840/107711741.a/0_e5fa7_3e06ab3e_XXXL.jpg (https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/sitniknikita/album/264829/view/941991)

not full but in that dirrection ...

By the way, I just realised that the map presented by Sita has (at last) correct locations names. Well done!
For those who are not aware: the stock Crimean map and its mods use toponyms introduced in 1944-1948.

Question to Sita - are any topographic corrections planned? For example, Balaclava Bay (missed in original version), mountains in right places. And not the least - those Sevastopol breakwaters need to be eliminated.

[Marabekm]

For those wanting to fly larger maps, I am working on the Solomons map using the actual bases of the time. Currently have the October 42 map flyable.
If anyone wants to fly, look for me, Dolphin, on Hyperlobby.

[=FPS=Salsero]

1. For the dogfight servers it would be very nice to have some zones with higher concentration of smaller airstrips, at the distance of 15-20 km. Say 4-6 strips. No need to make them AI-proof. No need to have any nets/tanks/towers. Even the runway texture could be absent. Preferable locations n the areas with beautiful scenery and where battles were fought.

2. Is it possible to extend Crimea+Kuban map to the north as to include Perekop and some land north to it? Crossing Sivash was quite an interesting operation.

3. Krasnodar dam was built post-war, as late as in 1973. It it possible to delete it?

[nic727]

With a map this big, we just need 4 maps in the game.

- Europe
- Asia
- Pacific
- Africa

Just take 20 minutes to load the map...

[Buster_Dee]

With enough bending, I would love North Atlantic/Russia convoy strike-protection scenarios. Some control over ships and u-boats, or at least AI intelligence. Radar revisited. Depth charge function. Heavy snow.

I know. Dreaming

[Pursuivant]

With enough bending, I would love North Atlantic/Russia convoy strike-protection scenarios. Some control over ships and u-boats, or at least AI intelligence. Radar revisited. Depth charge function. Heavy snow.

+1

At least the map is easy! A very big square of very cold water, possibly with water textures colored to (literally) reflect thick cloud cover above, and with longitude, latitude, sunrise, sunset, and temperature all set for someplace north of the Arctic Circle.

If you want to get fancy, maybe have an tiny bit of Iceland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Norway, or the Kola Peninsula in one corner.

The rest of it would require real work.

[Baddington_VA]

The Coal Sea map is a large expanse of water.
In June the sun is high overhead, in December it goes around toward the south.
In that way that it doesn't in the real Coral Sea.
But it would in the North Atlantic.

Sounds like a good North Atlantic candidate, the sun is already in the right place.

[Pursuivant]

The Coral Sea map is a large expanse of water. In June the sun is high overhead, in December it goes around toward the south. In that way that it doesn't in the real Coral Sea. But it would in the North Atlantic.

The sun being the wrong place on the Coral Sea map is a bug, and should be reported. The same bug - with winter and summer sun positions being incorrect for the Southern Hemisphere - might also affect other maps which portray the SW Pacific at or below the Equator.

But, the problem with using the Coral Sea map to portray other ocean areas, is that in addition to the longitude and latitude being wrong, the map air temperature is way too warm. It's more suited to being a map of the areas around Guam or the Marianas.

Ignoring longitude, which is currently irrelevant to the game, there should actually be 9 open ocean maps which cover various areas where air operations took place during WW2.

That sounds like a lot of maps, but you'd basically just need one new map texture some tweaking of the map data, and altering the longitude and latitude data on the "knee board" map.

This would be a really basic mod, should anyone be inspired to do it.

I propose:

Arctic/Bering Sea Spring/Fall - Latitude north of 60*N, air temperature of 0*C or lower. Different textures to reflect overcast skies. Represents the ocean off of Murmansk, Iceland, or the Aleutians. Can also represent off-shore regions of the Baltic Sea.

Arctic/Bering Sea Summer - As above, but air temperature 5-10 *C, possibly different textures to reflect overcast skies.

North Atlantic/Pacific Winter - Latitude at about 45*N. Air temperature 0-5 *C. Different textures to reflect overcast skies. Represents the Atlantic ocean off of Europe, the continental US, and the Pacific ocean off of Japan, Korea or northern China.

North Atlantic/Pacific Summer - As above, but air temperature 10-20 *C. Basic sea textures to reflect sunny skies.

Mediterranean Winter - Latitude of approximately 35-40 *N, air temperature approximately 5-15 *C. Possibly overcast sky ocean textures.

Mediterranean Summer - As above, but air temperature 25-35 *C. Can also represent the ocean off of Midway Island and in the Persian Gulf.

Equatorial North Pacific/Atlantic - Latitude 10 *N, air temperature 35-40 *C. Basically, the current Coral Sea map. Mostly represents the sea off of places like Thailand, Vietnam, Guam, the Philippines, the Marianas Islands, and the Marshall Islands, as well as the Bay of Bengal, and the South China Sea.

Equatorial Pacific/Atlantic - 0* N/S, air temperature 35-40 *C. Represents the waters off of Indonesia, New Guinea, the Gilbert Islands, and Nauru, including the Bismarck Sea.

The sunrise and sunset times never change regardless of the the time of year. The sun is always directly overhead.

The night sky map should show the constellations of both the Northern and Southern hemispheres, albeit with constellations like Ursa Major being very close to the horizon, and with Polaris being invisible.

Equatorial South Pacific/Atlantic - The Coral Sea map with sun and sky fixed. Represents the ocean at about 10 *S. Air temperature 35-40 *C. Represents the waters south of New Guinea and the Solomon Islands, the waters around the New Hebrides Islands, and, of course, the Coral Sea.

The night sky map should represent the stars of the Southern hemisphere.

And, of course, the sun should move slightly to the North during the Southern hemisphere's winter (i.e., the Northern hemisphere's summer).

[dimlee]

Just small amendment:
Surface air temp of +35...+40C is too high for oceans and open seas. I'd suggest maximum about +26C...+29C except Red Sea and may be some coastal areas.

[Pursuivant]

Just small amendment:
Surface air temp of +35...+40C is too high for oceans and open seas. I'd suggest maximum about +26C...+29C except Red Sea and may be some coastal areas.

You're right.

I was guessing at temperatures, but I was doing it by doing searches for temperatures for coastal cities, and choosing average summer high temperature (typically August), and winter low temperature (typically January).

So, my high temperature was based on the August high temperature for Tripoli, Libya, which is clearly too high once you get out to sea.

More realistically, for the summer Mediterranean, you'd want the summer high temperature for someplace like the Island of Lampadusa, which typically a balmy 29 *C in August. For the tropics, the same temperature seems about right.

FWIW, as of this writing, Sand Island (on Midway Island) currently has a temperature of 18 *C (but gets up to about 29 *C in August), Rabaul, New Guinea currently has a temperature of 27 *C, and Tarawa atoll in the Gilbert Islands currently has a temperature of 30*C.

Knock off a couple of a couple of degrees to reflect the fact that the world was cooler during the WW2 era, and a high of 26-29*C for warm ocean temperatures is spot on.

[dimlee]

Temperatures over any land mass, even small one as atoll are higher or lower (at winter in high latitudes) then at open seas. Differences can be surpisingly high at relatively short distances off shore of just 50-100 nautical miles, especially where low or cold currents are.

I mentioned numbers which I remember from my experience, but it would be interesting to read more objective information, certainly. Probably they can be found somewhere in archives of NOAA and of similar organisations. Also in pilot books.
There are also ship log books, however they are not reilable in this respect (except of oceanographic vessels}. Typical thermometer of XX century shipping was of alcohol type, mounted on a bridge wing in a place convenient to take readings but not where it was sufficently protected from direct sunlight and isolated of steel bulkhead (which can heat up to +50C and more in summer).

[Verdun1916]

A channel map would be very welcome indeed! Will it be ready for 4.14?
Combined with ubdated aircraft like a flyable Wellington and others mixed with ones already avalible it would be great for 1941-1944 scenarios.
A larger generic Northwest Europe map would be very welcome aswell combined with some new flyable French fighters for Phony War or Battle of France scenarios or Campaigns aswell.

I like a lot of the maps we already have but some of them would need to have their ocean stretches expanded. For instance the water outside the Normandy and Murmansk maps could be expanded further to the North, the North Sea on the Norway map could be expanded from East to West to give a more realistic flight distance. It's far to short as it is today. The water around Kyushu could be expanded aswell. Espeacially towards the east to give the B-29's a longer approach flight Before they reach the coast.

[RPS69]

A channel map would be very welcome indeed! Will it be ready for 4.14?
Combined with ubdated aircraft like a flyable Wellington and others mixed with ones already avalible it would be great for 1941-1944 scenarios.
A larger generic Northwest Europe map would be very welcome aswell combined with some new flyable French fighters for Phony War or Battle of France scenarios or Campaigns aswell.

I like a lot of the maps we already have but some of them would need to have their ocean stretches expanded. For instance the water outside the Normandy and Murmansk maps could be expanded further to the North, the North Sea on the Norway map could be expanded from East to West to give a more realistic flight distance. It's far to short as it is today. The water around Kyushu could be expanded aswell. Espeacially towards the east to give the B-29's a longer approach flight Before they reach the coast.

Some maps aren't on a 1:1 scale.
The best work around I could find was reducing fuel acordingly.
It generated that virtual pilots started caring a lot more when suffering fuel losses

[Verdun1916]

Some maps aren't on a 1:1 scale.
The best work around I could find was reducing fuel acordingly.
It generated that virtual pilots started caring a lot more when suffering fuel losses

I know that. But that's not my issue. It's flight time and flight distance.
On some maps, to 1:1 scale or not, flight distances/times from one end of the map to the other is to short.
Especially for scrambleing to intercept bombers. It's just impossible to take off and reach altitude to attack the incomming enemy before the enemy has arrived, dropped their load, and gone. Kyushu is one such map.

I want bigger maps to have greater distances to fly and greater areas to roam.

The Murmansk map for instance barely has water enough to be able to make proper anti-shipping patrol missions.

I know many players just want to jump straight into the action. But they can do that on bigger maps aswell by just placing the mission start and target closer together.
But for us who like to fly longer distances for a more realistic feel before reaching the target, bigger maps is needed. And to me the maps with water along one or more of it's borders, or in the middle like the Norway map, would be the best ones to make bigger by simply extending the sea areas.

[RPS69]

I know that. But that's not my issue. It's flight time and flight distance.
On some maps, to 1:1 scale or not, flight distances/times from one end of the map to the other is to short.
Especially for scrambleing to intercept bombers. It's just impossible to take off and reach altitude to attack the incomming enemy before the enemy has arrived, dropped their load, and gone. Kyushu is one such map.

I want bigger maps to have greater distances to fly and greater areas to roam.

The Murmansk map for instance barely has water enough to be able to make proper anti-shipping patrol missions.

I know many players just want to jump straight into the action. But they can do that on bigger maps aswell by just placing the mission start and target closer together.
But for us who like to fly longer distances for a more realistic feel before reaching the target, bigger maps is needed. And to me the maps with water along one or more of it's borders, or in the middle like the Norway map, would be the best ones to make bigger by simply extending the sea areas.

You having this problem with QM, or DGEN?

[Treetop64]

You having this problem with QM, or DGEN?

What does it have to do with QM or DGen? :roll:

He's talking about a map design issue, lol.

[RPS69]

What does it have to do with QM or DGen? :roll:

He's talking about a map design issue, lol.

It is not an issue. It is a design compromise.

The original game was designed on a local scenery, tactical situation. Never for a strategic one. Maps were reduced acordingly, specially because of heir impact on 2001 machines.

Later versions inherited this. To change this you need to build the map as you like it, and ask TD to validate it.

Or... you may try some workaround solutions.

[Pursuivant]

The original game was designed on a local scenery, tactical situation. Never for a strategic one. Maps were reduced acordingly, specially because of heir impact on 2001 machines.

Expanding existing maps isn't as easy as it sounds, even if you're just adding "blank" sea areas. I've looked into it and it's almost easier to create a new map of the same territory.

[majorfailure]

I know that. But that's not my issue. It's flight time and flight distance.
On some maps, to 1:1 scale or not, flight distances/times from one end of the map to the other is to short.
Especially for scrambleing to intercept bombers. It's just impossible to take off and reach altitude to attack the incomming enemy before the enemy has arrived, dropped their load, and gone. Kyushu is one such map

Don't know if it works on the Kyushu map, assigning coordinates far off the map to a flight that should arrive late(er) as starting point, at least on the Med map it works well enough to get an extra ~ 10 minutes to scramble and intercept

[RPS69]

Don't know if it works on the Kyushu map, assigning coordinates far off the map to a flight that should arrive late(er) as starting point, at least on the Med map it works well enough to get an extra ~ 10 minutes to scramble and intercept

This is the kind of workaround solutions I was talking about.

[RPS69]

Expanding existing maps isn't as easy as it sounds, even if you're just adding "blank" sea areas. I've looked into it and it's almost easier to create a new map of the same territory.

I know, that is why is easyer to apply some workarond solutions.

[Pursuivant]

Don't know if it works on the Kyushu map, assigning coordinates far off the map to a flight that should arrive late(er) as starting point, at least on the Med map it works well enough to get an extra ~ 10 minutes to scramble and intercept

If you're just using AI bombers, it's also possible to have bombers spawn when players reach a certain waypoint, or to have AI bombers follow a less direct route to allow players time to reach altitude.

But, historically, Japanese early warning systems weren't that great. It might have been possible for B-29 formations to hit targets in Southern Kyushu and escape before the Japanese could react. Not very fun for Japanese players, though.

[Asheshouse]

Expanding existing maps isn't as easy as it sounds, even if you're just adding "blank" sea areas. I've looked into it and it's almost easier to create a new map of the same territory.

Expanding map boundaries or cropping existing maps is fairly easy, as long as you have access to the required map tools. Adding land areas is obviousliy a different matter if it involves extensive re-population.

[badatflyski]

Expanding map boundaries or cropping existing maps is fairly easy, as long as you have access to the required map tools. Adding land areas is obviousliy a different matter if it involves extensive re-population.

Full repopulation only if you expand to the north or the west.
If you expand the map to the south and east, your original objects stay at their place, you "just" have to populate your "new" landmass.
Got this pb when making the merge of kuban and crimea (work never published, finished at 85%, but looking soo much better than the one that appeared some years ago, without all the objects bugs and all the textures displaced...yeah, i congratulate myself:-P ), to respect the allignment of the 2 land masses, had to add some new terrain to the north on crimea and kuban, and to replace the original objects, i saved several files (large cities, small cities, villages) and done some copy paste with the repositioning in zoom mode) several hours work but it worked.

[Pursuivant]

Full repopulation only if you expand to the north or the west.
If you expand the map to the south and east, your original objects stay at their place, you "just" have to populate your "new" landmass.

Useful information and very helpful for some maps, like Kyushu or some of the Black Sea maps.

But, unfortunately for the Murmansk map, the areas that need to be added are to the north and west!

[Asheshouse]

Its not too difficult expanding the map north or west, but in addition to the basic graphics work on the *.tga files it is necessary to "shift" the coordinates of all the existing objects and bridges to suit the location of the new map origin. Any new land area created will still need to have objects added to populate it.

A good start point is to read the stuff here http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/board,121.0.html

and especially here http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,33463.0.html

There is an Actors Cut and Shift tool, which as its says, is used to shift the coordinates of objects or to crop down object sets, if say a map is reduced in size.

[Verdun1916]

Anyhow some vaster maps would be nice, especially for the heavy bombers and for anti-shipping/coastal raid missions.
Can it be solved by vast expanses of water off coastal areas or in between land massesit would be great! :)

[Verdun1916]

I would like to see a new map of Finland, covering the area South of the Murmansk-map and North of the Gulf of Finland-map. Or atleast a larger generic map representing part of this area.
Since we already have the J8 Gladiator as a flyable since so many years it's ashame there is no map to use it properly, as flown by Svenska Frivillig Kårens squadron F19 during the Winter War. This Swedish squadron literally defended the entire North of Finland alone against the VVS from their arrival on 10 January 1940 until the end of the war on 13 March.

[secretone]

Thanks. Did not know about F19. The story is documented on Wikipedia in case any one else is interested.

[Asheshouse]

I would like to see a new map of Finland, covering the area South of the Murmansk-map and North of the Gulf of Finland-map. Or atleast a larger generic map representing part of this area.
Since we already have the J8 Gladiator as a flyable since so many years it's ashame there is no map to use it properly, as flown by Svenska Frivillig Kårens squadron F19 during the Winter War. This Swedish squadron literally defended the entire North of Finland alone against the VVS from their arrival on 10 January 1940 until the end of the war on 13 March.
Finnish Maps Collection here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,43113.0.html

[Verdun1916]

Finnish Maps Collection here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,43113.0.html

Thanks but I don't do mods. I only fly the stock game. But when I saw the first Finnish maps a few years ago amongst the mods I hoped that some of them would find their way into the official TD-updates one day. Sadly that hasn't happend yet.

But...I have high hopes for the future! :D

[Verdun1916]

Thanks. Did not know about F19. The story is documented on Wikipedia in case any one else is interested.

My pleasure! Sweden and Swedish citizens was more involved in WWII then most people realize even though our country was officially neutral.
About 12 000 Swedish men volontered to go and fight to defend Finland during the Winter War, about 8 000 made it there and saw service with the Swedish Volonteer Corps before the Armistice. My grandfather was one of those 8 000.
Other Swedes saw military service with the German Heer, the Waffen-SS, the US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, the R.A.F, the British Army, the Red Army and the French Foreign Legion and probably in other branches of service and with other countries aswell.

[Pursuivant]

While it's not that important to the game, it would be interesting to have a map of Sweden and surrounding areas, as well as relevant Swedish aircraft from the 1939-46 period (B17, B18, SAAB 21).

[dimlee]

My pleasure! Sweden and Swedish citizens was more involved in WWII then most people realize even though our country was officially neutral.
About 12 000 Swedish men volontered to go and fight to defend Finland during the Winter War, about 8 000 made it there and saw service with the Swedish Volonteer Corps before the Armistice. My grandfather was one of those 8 000.
Other Swedes saw military service with the German Heer, the Waffen-SS, the US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, the R.A.F, the British Army, the Red Army and the French Foreign Legion and probably in other branches of service and with other countries aswell.

And there were Swedish merchant seamen who have participated in WWII de facto - being under danger of naval and air attacks from all sides in all seas, from Baltic to South Atlantic. Losses were in hundreds...

[Verdun1916]

And there were Swedish merchant seamen who have participated in WWII de facto - being under danger of naval and air attacks from all sides in all seas, from Baltic to South Atlantic. Losses were in hundreds...

Indeed there were, dimlee! A lot of Swedish merchant ships sailed with supplies between North America and the British isles and several were sunk by the U-boats.
Some of the surviving sailers were so pissed off at the Germans they joined the Allied Forces after beeing sunk. Sivert Windh from Hässleholm, Sweden were I live was one of them. He joined the US Army after beeing his ship had been sunk. He fought ass an infantry man from Normandy to the Ardennes were he was wounded. He was then transfered to the SOE and ended the War on a mission in northern Norway after beeing accidentaly dropped on the wrong side of the border by a C-47 with his team. They ended up on the Swedish side of the Mountains and stumbled upon a Swedish policeman who thought they were spies and arrested them. The policeman was quite surprised when Sivert spoke to him in perfekt Swedish with our typical Scanian dialect. He and his team was later released to continue their mission into Norway.

[Verdun1916]

While it's not that important to the game, it would be interesting to have a map of Sweden and surrounding areas, as well as relevant Swedish aircraft from the 1939-46 period (B17, B18, SAAB 21).

A map of the Southern Baltic Sea with Denmark in the western southern Sweden in the middle, the Baltic coast in the east and the German/Polish coast in the south would fit well then.
It would be great for Allied bombing and anti-shipping mission in the area, the German defence of course and both sides ended up over southern sweden on several occasions. Just outside Hässleholm here in southern Sweden were I live a British Lancaster was shot down by a German Ju 88 night fighter stationed in Denmark in 1944 during a bombing mission against Königsberg for example. So a map like that would be ver interesting and usable to have. I doubt there will ever be any Swedish built fighters introduced to the stock game but we already have the J8A Gladiator, the Falco CR.42 and the Re.2000 that was used by the Swedish Airforce at the time.

[Pursuivant]

A map of the Southern Baltic Sea with Denmark in the western southern Sweden in the middle, the Baltic coast in the east and the German/Polish coast in the south would fit well then.

I believe that there is a map of the German/Polish coast around Danzig/Gdansk in the works, but I don't know if it's a mod or will be an official release.

There is a modded map of Denmark which is little more than just the geographic map - few towns, no roads or railroads.

The problem with maps of Western and Northern Europe are that that they're densely settled places, with lots of buildings, roads, railroads, and canals. That limits the effective map size unless you want to wait 20 minutes for the map to load, or slow the game to a crawl if you get into a big dogfight over a major city.

My guess is that at best, maps of such areas could be 150 km square, possibly less - about the size of the Berlin map.

From the point of view of Allied bombing ops, especially RAF missions, a map of Schleswig-Holstein, starting at the Danish border, and covering the cities of Flensburg, Kiel, Hamburg, Bremerhaven, Cuxhaven, and Wilhelmshaven would make the most sense for a "Northern Germany" map.

Notable targets would be U-boat pens and production facilities at Kiel and Bremerhaven, as well as the Kiel ship canal, and various industrial areas of Hamburg. The harbor between Bremerhaven and Wilhelmshaven, and the coastal areas, lend themselves to mine-laying missions.

Another potentially interesting map, albeit for areas that didn't see as much action, would be from Rostock to Swinemunde/Świnoujście, taking in the islands of Wolin & Usedom/Uznam, then up to Copenhagen and Malmo.

The notable target in this area is, of course, Peenemeunde, as well as industrial areas of Rostock and Copenhagen. This map could potentially be bigger because there's a lot of water.

[Verdun1916]

I believe that there is a map of the German/Polish coast around Danzig/Gdansk in the works, but I don't know if it's a mod or will be an official release.

There is a modded map of Denmark which is little more than just the geographic map - few towns, no roads or railroads.

The problem with maps of Western and Northern Europe are that that they're densely settled places, with lots of buildings, roads, railroads, and canals. That limits the effective map size unless you want to wait 20 minutes for the map to load, or slow the game to a crawl if you get into a big dogfight over a major city.

My guess is that at best, maps of such areas could be 150 km square, possibly less - about the size of the Berlin map.

From the point of view of Allied bombing ops, especially RAF missions, a map of Schleswig-Holstein, starting at the Danish border, and covering the cities of Flensburg, Kiel, Hamburg, Bremerhaven, Cuxhaven, and Wilhelmshaven would make the most sense for a "Northern Germany" map.

Notable targets would be U-boat pens and production facilities at Kiel and Bremerhaven, as well as the Kiel ship canal, and various industrial areas of Hamburg. The harbor between Bremerhaven and Wilhelmshaven, and the coastal areas, lend themselves to mine-laying missions.

Another potentially interesting map, albeit for areas that didn't see as much action, would be from Rostock to Swinemunde/Świnoujście, taking in the islands of Wolin & Usedom/Uznam, then up to Copenhagen and Malmo.

The notable target in this area is, of course, Peenemeunde, as well as industrial areas of Rostock and Copenhagen. This map could potentially be bigger because there's a lot of water.

What I had in mind would be a map with mostly water in this case with only a thinner coastal area present for Denmark, Germany and the baltic side to the west, south and east. The only bigger landmass would be Skåne portruding from the north.

[gaunt1]

These map ideas would be quite interesting. But there is a problem. Important planes are missing: Flyable Ju-88C6, and flyable early Beaufighter variants, like the Mk.VI. Both are direly needed elsewhere too... :(

[Verdun1916]

These map ideas would be quite interesting. But there is a problem. Important planes are missing: Flyable Ju-88C6, and flyable early Beaufighter variants, like the Mk.VI. Both are direly needed elsewhere too... :(

Agreed!