suggested tactics yak3 vs fw190

[edward allen]

In this matchup i will try a spiral climb to the right but it never works.
FW pulls inside me and down I go. Any suggestions from the yak jockey's.

[rollnloop]

Keep enough speed during your manoeuver so you can reverse any time if attacked. If attacked break right and low. If outnumbered or in a brawl FW have the armament advantage, so try to avoid these situations. In a 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 and up to 4 vs 4 it's more manageable.

Doras or Antons ?

[Woke Up Dead]

A Yak 3 will out-turn any 190 in a long sustained turn, so you want to get in close, turn hard, and slow the fight down. Pretend you're a Zero or Spitfire; the Yak isn't as steady and can't turn quite that tight, but it's still a good way to fight against a 190.

Getting the fight to that slow stage is tricky against a 190 though. If you're both going fast at the merge then he has an advantage with the tougher engine and more guns; he'll gladly take the head-on. After a fast first merge you will probably still be unable to get in-close, another head-on or just off head-on merge will happen. After that you should be in-close and slow enough to start a turn-fight where the Yak will be better.

So the trick is to survive that first merge or two: a quick pull of the stick and kick of the rudder to the inside just as you're entering gun range will do the trick nine times out of ten. You can practice this move against AI in Quick Mission Builder to get the timing right. In between merges try to make him turn as much as possible, the 190's small wings will bleed lots of energy in long turns so make big, sweeping turns that tighten at the last second along with that rudder kick to spoil his shot.

[gaunt1]

Also, vs 190As, the Yak-3 is MUCH faster up to 5000m, accelerates and climbs far better all the way up to max service ceiling. 190D is more problematic, because its roughly as fast as you, and as altitude increases, he will get faster. But it still climbs and turns very poorly.

[Woke Up Dead]

Also, vs 190As, the Yak-3 is MUCH faster up to 5000m, accelerates and climbs far better all the way up to max service ceiling. 190D is more problematic, because its roughly as fast as you, and as altitude increases, he will get faster. But it still climbs and turns very poorly.

Hmm, I don't know if the Yak-3 is faster than the 190As, especially not the A5, 6, or 9; I'm pretty sure IL-2 Compare will show the FWs are at least as fast at all altitudes and the 190D is much faster and climbs well at all altitudes too. Maybe you're confusing the Yak-3 with the much faster Yak-3VK prototype or the Yak-9U? Having said that, they're only faster if they fly in a straight line, as soon as they turn the 190s generate a lot of drag and will lose speed fastery than the Yak-3.

[majorfailure]

Hmm, I don't know if the Yak-3 is faster than the 190As, especially not the A5, 6, or 9; I'm pretty sure IL-2 Compare will show the FWs are at least as fast at all altitudes and the 190D is much faster and climbs well at all altitudes too. Maybe you're confusing the Yak-3 with the much faster Yak-3VK prototype or the Yak-9U? Having said that, they're only faster if they fly in a straight line, as soon as they turn the 190s generate a lot of drag and will lose speed fastery than the Yak-3.

IL-2 Compare says you are faster in a regular Yak-3 than any Fw190 up to A8, between 1000 and about 5000 m. And climbs better in that range, too. But both not by a wide margin. Vs. A9 you are about even, and vs. D9 you are at a disadvantage.

Yaks vs. 190s is always a tough game in my opinion, you have some advantages, but against capable foes you cannot use them, they either use roll rate or their ability to dive, and you cannot follow either. And even if you could and would, their wingmen wait just for that. If possible and situation allowing(1 on 1), slow the fight, make it a turning contest.
And be aware, that not only when you are hit by Fw190, you are likely to be out of the fight, vice versa its true, too. That seemingly puny armament of a heavy MG and a 20mm cannon can really waste planes, if you can get a concentrated burst to hit home.

Edit:
Just tried this vs. veteran AI (in an A-6), QMB, 2000m. 1 on 1. Five times. I avoided the initial head-on and tried to get behind the Fw190, which worked most of the time. They evade, if they are clever with rolling scissors/Split-S, which I counter by pulling up and repositioning or if I feel I can make the shot, I cut across their circles, if they are not so clever, they turn and that's their demise. And never once I had to make the fight slow, on the contrary. That Yak-3 is a monster. It is excellent at all things that that 1B/9 are good at. Visibility all around is excellent, armament is good(Four of my five Fw190 were out of the fight after the first burst), acceleration and climb is superb, and handles like a dream. If the real thing was anything like that, I do not wonder why its pilots considered it excellent.

[gaunt1]

If the real thing was anything like that, I do not wonder why its pilots considered it excellent.

Unlike Lavochkins and Yak-9U, which are overmodeled, all VK-105 powered Yaks have very good FM. They match historical performance very well. And yes, the Yak-3 was a truly excellent plane in RL too. It had somewhat less maneuverability than earlier models, but it is compensated by far superior speed and climb.

[Janosch]

Unlike Lavochkins and Yak-9U, which are overmodeled,

No they aren't.

[gaunt1]

No they aren't.

Official NII VVS tests dont agree...
La-5 is moderately overmodeled, La-5F significantly, La-5FN slightly. La-7 is also moderately. Even if we compare the best performing serial planes in the tests with ingame data.
Much of their FM is based on prototypes.

http://lib.rus.ec/i/98/230798/pic_72.jpg

[TinyTim]

And yes, the Yak-3 was a truly excellent plane in RL too. It had somewhat less maneuverability than earlier models, but it is compensated by far superior speed and climb.

QFT. Russians actually tried to make Yak-1(B) more "FW-ish", which gave birth to Yak-3 (initially designated Yak-1M) which had larger turning circle (compared to earlier models with larger wings) in favor better roll, acceleration, climb, etc, which all made it a better dogfighter.

[dimlee]

QFT. Russians actually tried to make Yak-1(B) more "FW-ish", which gave birth to Yak-3 (initially designated Yak-1M) which had larger turning circle (compared to earlier models with larger wings) in favor better roll, acceleration, climb, etc, which all made it a better dogfighter.

I don't remember Mr.Yakovlev or his colleagues ever mentioned anything about their attempts to make Yaks more "FW-ish". I might be wrong, of course.
I do remember however, that Yakovlev was somewhat obcessed with competition against Willy Messerschmitt.

[dimlee]

Back to the topic.
My opinion from the other side.
I flew Yaks just few times in early IL2 years, but 190A/F in all stock versions was one of my favourites until I quitted the game in 2009.
I don't recall considering Yak-3 as real threat, unless I was in 109F with full bombload. Or found myself at low alt with low energy or damaged. Once you learned how to fight against La and Spit, you just stopped bothering about Yaks, except that "very late war" VK107A version.
But as said, it was until 2009. No idea how FM of 109A has changed since then.

[KG26_Alpha]

Didn't the unresolved problem of the ply wood coming off at high speed stop it from being a " truly excellent plane".

;)

[Woke Up Dead]

Was it really an unresolved problem? I got the impression that the Soviet way was to rush badly needed planes out and iron out the kinks in later production batches. So the first few hundred planes would have problems like the one you mentioned, then the next few hundred would have them improved, then the next few hundred would be perfected, then the next major model of the plane would appear and the cycle would be repeated.

[dimlee]

Was it really an unresolved problem? I got the impression that the Soviet way was to rush badly needed planes out and iron out the kinks in later production batches. So the first few hundred planes would have problems like the one you mentioned, then the next few hundred would have them improved, then the next few hundred would be perfected, then the next major model of the plane would appear and the cycle would be repeated.

Exactly. Poor quality management was intrinsic problem (or feature) of all Soviet industries, aircraft manufacturing including. War years added new challenges as drain of qualified labor force and extremely high pressure of party leadership.

[majorfailure]

Exactly. Poor quality management was intrinsic problem (or feature) of all Soviet industries, aircraft manufacturing including. War years added new challenges as drain of qualified labor force and extremely high pressure of party leadership.

though they were not alone, the American built Hispanos speak for themselves, as does the British Typhoon. And while the early war planes of the Japanese and German/Italian may have been up to specs, they soon could not afford the time to produce quality products, see engine problems both on He177 and Ki-84.
And I''m sure those are only a few examples of many. And we should not forget that the Russians had neither the time nor the labour nor the resources to afford quality products early on - and the heavy influence of politics on production did not help IMHO.

[Pursuivant]

And I''m sure those are only a few examples of many. And we should not forget that the Russians had neither the time nor the labour nor the resources to afford quality products early on - and the heavy influence of politics on production did not help IMHO.

Early to mid-war Soviet, and late war Japanese and German aircraft should be far less reliable than they are currently. Ditto for some US-built aircraft (e.g., the Brewster B-239, B-339, B-29), and some UK and Soviet aircraft.

Of course, introducing any sort of unreliability or performance reduction into the the game might be self-defeating. For campaign or stand-alone missions, most players will just hit "quit" and refly the mission if they experience an equipment failure. It might be better to factor in unreliability into number of planes flyable for a particular squadron in a campaign.

[RPS69]

Early to mid-war Soviet, and late war Japanese and German aircraft should be far less reliable than they are currently. Ditto for some US-built aircraft (e.g., the Brewster B-239, B-339, B-29), and some UK and Soviet aircraft.

Of course, introducing any sort of unreliability or performance reduction into the the game might be self-defeating. For campaign or stand-alone missions, most players will just hit "quit" and refly the mission if they experience an equipment failure. It might be better to factor in unreliability into number of planes flyable for a particular squadron in a campaign.

Totally in agreement.

[gaunt1]

... engine problems both on He177 and Ki-84.


Well, the He-177 actually got MORE reliable over time :D DB606 engine (He-177A1, first 15 A3) was a disaster, but DB610 was much better. It wasnt exceptionally reliable, true, but all major problems of the DB606 were fixed. It was still much more reliable than for example the soviet VK107.

[Jumoschwanz]

In this matchup i will try a spiral climb to the right but it never works.
FW pulls inside me and down I go. Any suggestions from the yak jockey's.


Ed, the only advice that counts is that which is about flying against smart pilots.

A smart FW190 pilot is going to keep his bird going as fast as it can without overheating at all times, and he is also going to keep it around 3000 meters altitude or higher. The smartest FW190 pilots do the above plus have a wingman!

The FW190 has a great horizontal stabilizer, so if one of them comes after you that is going maximum speed and all you try to do to evade is a spiral climb it makes sense that he will be able to hit you as all he has to do is use his speed and his aircraft's great high-speed control to move you into his sights and fire his six guns.

The reason the smart FW190 pilot will keep his bird around 3000 meters altitude is so he can break-off the fight at will. At any time the FW190 can dive away at a speed that will make the Yak or other Russian planes breakup if it tries to match in pursuit. Then the FW can either go home, or turn back at you for another shot after you break off.

The only time you are going to get a shot at a smart FW190 pilot is if you have the element of surprise that flying hard settings can give you, or if you catch them while they are climbing to altitude. Other than that the only FW190 pilot you will shoot down will be the greedy or dumb ones who slow their bird down and try fighting with it at low speed and low altitude. .

In the end "dogfighting" at slow speeds is a child's game for fun. You are not going to dogfight at slow speeds vs. more than one opponent and not get shot down unless they are very poor pilots. Smart pilots in WWII and in IL2 who want to score and get back home to land were and are the winners, and they will fly straight and fast, take a few good shots or drop a bomb and fly back home. If they slow down to "dogfight" where there are multiple enemy aircraft then they will not be going home, not in history and not in IL2.

[dimlee]

Excellent summary given by Jumoschwanz.
I agree with almost everything except 3000 m altitude. Actually, this alt number should be carefully watched and avoided by those smart FW190 pilots. There is significant speed drop at around 3000m and Yak3 has the most ROC advantage over FW190 exactly at 3000m. This is true for any FW190 except probably some late 190Ds in HSFX. Sourse of reference: IL2 Compare program which is highly recommended to study before flying in the environment with "smart" pilots.

[K_Freddie]

Other than that the only FW190 pilot you will shoot down will be the greedy or dumb ones who slow their bird down and try fighting with it at low speed and low altitude. .

In the end "dogfighting" at slow speeds is a child's game for fun. You are not going to dogfight at slow speeds vs. more than one opponent and not get shot down unless they are very poor pilots.
Amateur.... :)
The FW will zap a yak low-and-slow.. try flying on the edge sometime and learn something ;)

[K_Freddie]

For the OP...
The Yak3 is light, and maneuverable above a min speed (sorry I forget which)... below this speed it's a dog and very unstable - you will stall easily way above stall speed.
In comparison the FW is a lot more stable, and more controllable at the Yak3's min speed.. and it can nail you if you cannot control your plane... of course the FW guy has to know his plane as well ;)

I have 3000+ hours in an IL2 FW.. and a lot of on-line DFs have been won lo-n-slo (a lot of yak3's and La5&7s.. also Spits) coz they were impatient/greedy

Keep the Yak3 fast and you'll be OK... play for time and if the FW tries to follow you he's dead meat... but never for one moment think that you 'have him' when on his 6...!!
Aim for the Pit (PK)... I always do.. every other hit is luck..

Actually ran up IL2 yesterday with some Zero action for fun.. it's been years ;)
Still haven't lost my touch... but hey!! good pilots don't ;)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtqm8j6psz0ya9f/Zero0_1.mp4?dl=0/

[Woke Up Dead]

Gotta disagree K-Freddie, using the 190 for a low and slow fight is a very bad idea. Sure, it can be done if you are very experienced in the 190 and the Yak pilot is not experienced in his plane, but given equal experience both pilots will find their planes equally steady/unsteady, and the Yak will be able to out-turn the FW.

If you're in a Yak and fighting average FW pilots online or Veteran/Ace AI offline, then getting into a medium to slow turn-fight is not a bad idea. Be aggressive (especially when it comes to avoiding his shots) until the FW's energy is equal to yours and you are behind him, then be patient and careful because you don't have a lot of ammo and the 190 may try to make you overshoot.

[dimlee]

There are certainly different styles of flying the same aircraft. I knew people who were excellent in low (but not slow) flying FW190 and I had hard time with some of them in my P38 (my another favorite).
But I have never felt comfortable flying FW190 myself below 1500 m (unless on bombing mission in 190F) and avoided encounters which could be called "dogfight" unless not given other choice. Run high and fast, smart engine management, if I miss - climb or separate at safe distance, look around, consider another attack or escape, etc.
Probably because - from the opposite side - I saw many 190 drivers who tried to go scissors or else at low alt only to burn their E and to end in gunsights of my Fork Tail Devil...
Last but not the least... one's low speed and low alt is so attractive for any ally of your adversary who just happened to be there. Or several allies.

[Jumoschwanz]

Excellent summary given by Jumoschwanz.
I agree with almost everything except 3000 m altitude.

The actual altitude a smart pilot will fly any aircraft at will depend on many current conditions. The main reason to stay above 3000m is as already mentioned to dive away from Soviet aircraft. Brought up that point because the guy who started the thread is asking about Yak tactics.

Which year of the war, weather conditions, which front you are flying on and what other aircraft you are flying against, doing ground attack or interception etc.., all will tell a smart pilot what altitude he needs to be at.

If there are no clouds, then you really need to stay just under contrail altitude, or at about 2000 meters altitude. At 2000 meters it will be hard for those at 6000+meters to spot you, and you will be above the reach of "bottom feeders" who fly along skimming the ground.

Clouds change the game, as if they are solid or very plentiful, then you certainly do not want to fly around just above them as you show up quite well to all those flying above 6K meters. I will fly either very high when there are clouds like this and look for the dummies flying against them, or I will fly fast and straight at the bottom of the clouds, this way the high-alt guys will not spot you easy, and again the guys flying at ground level will not be able to reach you, plus you can pull back on the stick and disappear into the clouds very easily.

Just because you are flying an aircraft that will turn does not mean you have to look for turning fights. I ran the best score ever in Feb. 2008 on the Spits vs. 109s server, which had 1662 different pilots that month by mostly flying a 109f4 as if it were a 190A. I kept it fast and straight and close to the bottom of thick clouds so I could take shots at any SpitV that was in front of me, and I could dive down to hit lower targets and then zoom back up into the clouds at will.

If you know the server well, then you will know where most of the action takes place and you can try to fly into it with superior altitude and speed and be top man on the totem pole.

Yak pilots always impressed me, especially in the "old days" of IL2 when there were few planes to choose from and it was still an Eastern Front flight sim. The Russian pilots had to manage their mixture and supercharger settings. You could watch a Yak pilot zoom up and trail black smoke for only an instant if it's pilot was sharp and was on top of engine management to get the most out of his bird.

IL2 was a big deal back then and there were many, many good VVS pilots giving us guys in our 109s and 190s problems. For most of the early history of IL2 it was very unpopular to fly German aircraft because the 190a was very bad at turning and the 109 did not turn as well as the Yak or La5 etc.. We were not so sophisticated and there were very few IL2 pilots doing energy fighting in the early 2000s. Also most of the servers and squads that ran them were VVS, USA or RAF and hosted in WWII allied countries.

I flew German aircraft in IL2 because that is what I was flying in Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator2 at the time IL2 showed up in 2001. And most servers needed German pilots badly as they were almost always in very short supply. Most IL2 pilots in the early days preferred flying the very fast La5fn around, which was almost untouchable, or the very good turning Yaks. My wife just got home have to go.......

[dimlee]

Hear, hear...
Spits vs 109 was good...