p38 defense

[edward allen]

I occasionlly fly the p38 and I'm mostly a target drone. Are there any other defensive moves other than a dive to get out of trouble. I always boom and
zoom with this plane but still get into trouble. Also I thought the "cloverleaf'
manoever was a series of hi-yo's.

[majorfailure]

Depends what you are up against. Vs. most japanese (not J2 and Ki-84) planes you have the speed advantage, use it. And you climb better tan them when you are fast.
Against German/Italian opposition you are as good as dead when you have to defend, your roll rate is inferior. In general vs. German/Italian opposition in a P-38 is a tough game, you cannot roll with them, can barely turn with them, they can climb as well as you and are as fast as you are.

[rakinroll]

Use your P-38's air-brake which make your plane better turner and roller even at low speed. And while using air-brake you can answer FW190's scissors maneuver effectively. Here is the video of Antred (P-38L) against me (FW-190A-8). You can see how Antred can easily turn and roll with me at low speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNCWcK4ZXVI (www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNCWcK4ZXVI)

Here is the same dogfights video from FW-190's view (starts 10:20):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xc2dan_eagleturk-dogfight-3_videogames

[Treetop64]

There is no "fixed" way of doing well and staying out of trouble. Combat - even simulated "make-believe" air combat in this game - is very fluid and dynamic, and you must continuously reassess the situation in real time, and adapt to it accordingly. Having said that, there are some basic tips that definitely help in the P-38:

- Stay fast. Always stay fast. Never slow down for anything unless you're landing. If you're about to overshoot your target, then overshoot it, but stay fast and climb out, come around, and if the situation allows it, try again. Unless he's the only enemy left and you still have some help, don't slow down just to stay on someone backside. He may still have help himself, or might actually out-fly you, and you'll be too big and slow to do anything about it. Then you'll need someone to come in and rescue you, and you don't want to depend on that.

- Fly smooth. No sudden movements or sharp turns unless your survival immediately and absolutely depends on it. Forget any nonsense about asymmetrical or combat/dive flaps maneuvering in the P-38 that you may hve read about in the forums. You shouldn't be dogfighting in the P-38 in the first place.

- Stay high. If you're not above your opponent and are not unavoidably engaged in a fight, disengage and take the time to go wide and put yourself above everyone else.

- Try not to put yourself in a position to get shot back at. Flown a certain way the P-38 is fast enough to allow you to do this in most cases.

You need to be patient in planes like the P-38, always plan ahead, and always have an exit strategy. It doesn't guarantee success, but it tilts the odds in your favor.

If you fly online, I would frankly suggest avoiding the bullshit "No BnZ Allowed" servers...

[Pursuivant]

Depends what you are up against. Vs. most japanese (not J2 and Ki-84) planes you have the speed advantage, use it. And you climb better tan them when you are fast.

Early to mid-war Japanese planes are a well-flown P-38's natural prey. Their lack of armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, plus their light airframes, helps the P-38 kill them with one pass.

Historically, the P-38's ability to climb to considerably higher altitudes (~44k feet for the P-38L, vs. ~35,000 feet for the Zero and the Ki-43) than the Japanese also helped. The Americans could usually attack from above.

In game, guess that means "try to drag the fight upstairs" if that's possible, since the P-38 has the sustained climbing power to do it. At some point, a plane like the A6M5 or the Ki-43-III is going to wallowing due to the high altitude.

Other than that, the P-38 really is a "thinking man's airplane." Moreso than other fighters, even other BnZ fighters, you have to plan each attack in advance - from ingress to exit. Sometimes, that can be a real PITA, especially if you're learning, and especially against a maneuverable foe who can "jam" your attacks with clever maneuvers.

Go offline and start hunting AI Ki-43-IIIs, Ki-27s or A5Ms. Their relative lack of armament makes them much safe to engage than any other Japanese planes, while their twisty, windy ways will drive you nuts as you try to attack them.

[majorfailure]

Other than that, the P-38 really is a "thinking man's airplane." Moreso than other fighters, even other BnZ fighters, you have to plan each attack in advance - from ingress to exit. Sometimes, that can be a real PITA, especially if you're learning, and especially against a maneuverable foe who can "jam" your attacks with clever maneuvers.


Absolutely - for a beginner I would recommend a P-40 against Japanese early-mid war planes. Your speed advantage is not as good as in a P-38. You can make your roll rate count though, and it is a really capable energy fighting plane. If you enter the fight with an altitude advantage you are nearly intouchable. Just don't turn and burn, keep the fight vertical, use your roll rate to change direction, if you see your advantage degrade, exit, climb back and re-enter. If all else fails, split-S one or even two times, maybe even with a slight change of direction at the exit, and run.

[Jumoschwanz]

It does not matter what you fly, if you are used to your airplane and have more experience than the other guy then you will shoot him down. If he has more experience or is more used to his aircraft than you, then he will shoot you down.

The only disadvantage a P-38 has in general is that it is a large, easy to hit and fragile aircraft. It has great acceleration and speed and it also turns and rolls well.

One thing you can do is to start flying hard settings, this evens the playing field a lot over flying arcade settings because it lets you use historical tactics and gives you the historically accurate element of surprise. Others will have to ID you and your aircraft before they attack, they will not know what it is as soon and will not see it as soon because it does not have a large colored arrow and ID information attached to it.

I have had great success in P-38s in every kind of combat, z&b and slow "dogfighting", but it had a lot more to do with tactics and the hard settings I was flying, and my experience than with the aircraft type.

[majorfailure]

It does not matter what you fly, if you are used to your airplane and have more experience than the other guy then you will shoot him down. If he has more experience or is more used to his aircraft than you, then he will shoot you down.
I know my example is not fair, but: Tommy McGuire would still live if your statement were true.

The only disadvantage a P-38 has in general is that it is a large, easy to hit and fragile aircraft. It has great acceleration and speed and it also turns and rolls well.
It does not roll well, which is IMHO its greatest disadvantage - especially against planes like 190. Okay I'm biased here, IMHO roll rate (basically negating any turn advantage the enemy may have against you) is the second most important trait of fighters, speed advantage beeing the first(allowing you to enter and exit a fight at will). And a speed advantage can also be obtained by a plane with higher altitude, same is true for exiting fights, if you can dive like hell, you may also escape in the theoretically slower plane. This is why I would pick a P-39/P-40 any day against Japanese opposition - except maybe for late war.


I have had great success in P-38s in every kind of combat, z&b and slow "dogfighting", but it had a lot more to do with tactics and the hard settings I was flying, and my experience than with the aircraft type.
I think with similar experience in a P-40 or a P-39 you would have been as sucessful.
And for a beginner a plane that has "only" the speed advantage +excellent accelleration+favourable high speed climb is not easy. What the beginner may not be aware of is that against Japanese opposition the P-38 is an excellent choice to survive in -and you get quite some margin for errors other planes, e. g. F4F/P-40 do not have. The P-39 in the real world was a troublesome plane for novice pilots - and it may well be in IL-2, too. Though in the hands of a better pilot it is fearsome against Japanese planes, great roll rate, useful turn rate, speed advantage, armament that is overkill against fighters, and still capable of shooting down multiple bombers - if they appear at medium/low alt.

[dimlee]

As Tom McGuire was mentioned earlier, it makes sense to remind his 3 rules about flying P-38:
- no combat at low altitude
- never let you speed to drop below 300 mph
- never keep your tanks in a fight
And yes, as stated above - well thought tactic is the best defence for this amazing plane.

[Jumoschwanz]

It does not roll well, which is IMHO its greatest disadvantage
I think with similar experience in a P-40 or a P-39 you would have been as sucessful.

I fly the 1944 P38-late almost every week on a hard-settings server vs. other fast, late-war aircraft like 25lb spits and La-7s, Mustangs, 109s and F4Us etc..

This late p38 rolls very fast at high speeds and very well at low speeds. I always thought it rolled too fast for a large twin-engine aircraft, but it is in the sim so what the heck. As long as I am going straight and fast I can fly it into just about anything, take a shot and then go straight away or zoom up out of reach of my opponents. Because of it's lack of torque steer at low speeds, you can zoom straight up and stall and fall straight back on whatever is below you a bit better than it can be done in a single-engine craft.

I like flying the 43' Lightning as well. No it can not maneuver as well as the late one, but knowing that I just fly it accordingly. It will stay ahead of any 43' German aircraft easily.

Those guns in the nose of the P-38 hit very hard and are easy to aim, I sure would not want to be hit by them. When you fly into a furball at high speed with the P-38 and take a shot whoever you hit will either go down or go home. If anyone turns on your tail they automatically have less energy than you so there is no problem losing them or getting above them.

The only time I get shot down in a P38 is because I am bounced by surprise on the hard-settings server, and that is usually because I am doing ground attack strafing, but even that does not happen too often as I make sure and keep it fast.

The P38 is easy to fly fast, keep it's prop pitch at eighty or eighty-five percent and it will stay cooler and still go very fast. If you get an overheat signal just back the throttles off when you get a chance, it is very hard to ruin the engines. Nice having two engines too, I have gotten home and even shot down other aircraft while one engine was entirely missing.

[dimlee]

Good to know that P-38 remains attractive despite many new planes added to the game.

Hey, no P-38 discussion should go without "McGuire's Rules" :cool:
- Never attempt combat at low altitude.
- Never let your airspeed fall below 300 mph.
- Never keep your wing tanks on in a fight.
(yes, there are some variations with different alt and speed numbers, but general idea is clear).

I undersign most of comments above but suggest to think twice before to use brakes or flaps and/or to dogfight too low where you have no rooom to dive and escape or to exit from a stall (yes, McGuire's rules again and example of his own fatal mistake).

Jumoschwanz has mentioned good roll rate of late models and pitch management usefullness. Probably implemented in last IL2 versions? Good to know, it was different in old days before 4.07.

[Igo kyu]

Somewhere, I forget where (sorry, :oops: ), probably not here at all, someone said the Bf 110 was one of the best WW2 twin engined fighters. What about the P38, the whirlwind, the tigercat, maybe even the mosquito? If you exclude the single seaters then maybe the Bf110 makes the top three, but why would you exclude the single seaters?

[dimlee]

Somewhere, I forget where (sorry, :oops: ), probably not here at all, someone said the Bf 110 was one of the best WW2 twin engined fighters. What about the P38, the whirlwind, the tigercat, maybe even the mosquito? If you exclude the single seaters then maybe the Bf110 makes the top three, but why would you exclude the single seaters?

I can't imagine anyone claiming that seriously... despite my own love affair with Bf110 which I has flown hundreds hours in IL2.

[Jumoschwanz]

Historically the Bf110 has not shown up well. A smart pilot can cause a lot of trouble with it in IL2 though.

When the 110 first came out in IL2 it was better performing than it is now and quite a terror, but thankfully it was patched up and made to perform more like a large, heavy and average WWII aircraft that will not hold it's own against well-flown single-engine fighters.

One of my old memories of flying the 110 in IL2 was using it for ground attack at low altitude and hoping that someone would get on my six so I could take them out with a bomb. I don't know if I was the first to do it, but very early on I was setting a few seconds delay on bombs I was carrying and dropping them when for instance an La-5 would start following. I could switch to the gunner position and watch the La5 disappear as the two 500K bombs went off close to it. It was hilarious to watch and it surely pissed them off quite a bit.

Later I can remember someone did the same thing to me, I was after a P-38 being flown by a TUSA squad member and they took my FW190 out by dragging me over a few bombs they had dropped.

[Woke Up Dead]

I can't imagine anyone claiming that seriously... despite my own love affair with Bf110 which I has flown hundreds hours in IL2.

Yeah, you have to be very disciplined and retreat and run for cover very early to have success with the 110. In 1942-43 it's faster than almost all allied planes on the Eastern front at 6000m+, so if you're playing on a realistic server you could take advantage of that. It can turn with P-47s, which will often surprise the P47 pilot. Its leading edge slats give it decent low-speed stability, but it's a brick at low speed. I had great fun flying it on a Norway map against P-40s, Seafires, Mosquitos, and P-38s, though I'll admit that a part of my success there was my AI gunner doing a job on the P40s and Seafire's glass engines.

It's one of those underdog planes where it's very rewarding to get kills and survive. But all single-seater planes and most two-seater two-engined planes fly better than the 110: Pe-2/3, Ki-45, Beaufighter, A-20...

[dimlee]

When the 110 first came out in IL2 it was better performing than it is now and quite a terror, but thankfully it was patched up and made to perform more like a large, heavy and average WWII aircraft that will not hold it's own against well-flown single-engine fighters.

That was one of my "disappointments" with Oleg. My favorite toy became a brick. ;) I have to reinvent and to rethink my tactics. When I made my first kill in "new" Bf110 I was full of joy. Still remember it was P39.

[dimlee]

Yeah, you have to be very disciplined and retreat and run for cover very early to have success with the 110. In 1942-43 it's faster than almost all allied planes on the Eastern front at 6000m+, so if you're playing on a realistic server you could take advantage of that. It can turn with P-47s, which will often surprise the P47 pilot. Its leading edge slats give it decent low-speed stability, but it's a brick at low speed. I had great fun flying it on a Norway map against P-40s, Seafires, Mosquitos, and P-38s, though I'll admit that a part of my success there was my AI gunner doing a job on the P40s and Seafire's glass engines.

It's one of those underdog planes where it's very rewarding to get kills and survive. But all single-seater planes and most two-seater two-engined planes fly better than the 110: Pe-2/3, Ki-45, Beaufighter, A-20...

Yes, agree. Real underdog requiring smart tactics and some luck, of course.
More realistic settings, more chances to survive.
Bf110 vs Pe3 was very interesting scenario, I've been on both sides and liked both planes.

[gaunt1]

Try the 110 against an AI Mosquito! It is suprisingly easy to shoot down the mossie! :) (obviously, against a human opponent, its much harder)
As for the Pe-3, its FM is fishy... Especially, its turn rate seems somewhat boosted, (second best after Ki-45) but Its entirely possible that Im wrong.

[KG26_Alpha]

Pe-3 is deadly.

Probably a optimistic FM

:)