Arcade armchair "expert" debunked.

[Jumoschwanz]

I had a close acquaintance who likes to fly the Fun4All server telling me how aircraft in WWII could not have been as hard to fly in real life as they are when IL2 Sturmovik is set to "realistic".

His argument to keep flying easy settings with blackouts, gyro effects and just about everything else turned off that makes IL2 a flight sim and not Pac-Man.

I sent him this web link to read:


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5985415/Re_WWII_AIRCRAFT_The_numbers

[swiss]

http://ww2-weapons.com/Armies/Germany/Luftwaffe/Training.htm

http://stephenesherman.com/discussions/us_german_aces.html

[Jumoschwanz]

Nice articles Swiss. In the end the point is that it certainly takes a little more skill to fly a WWII fighter aircraft than it does to fly on Fun4All server.

I did fly around on Fun4All for a while to show support for my acquaintance, after all I don't want to be a snob.

So I flew around in a fast late-war allied aircraft for a while. I was at a disadvantage because being used to flying realistic settings for the last dozen years I always fly with things on my mind like blacking or redding out, engine overheating, not to mention a realistic flight model and a cockpit.
I kept the cockpit on for a while as it was there by default, but then I turned it off for a bit and it was odd being able to see your target while you were shooting at it in hard turns while not blacking-out, pretty silly and Pac-Man like and surely needing much less skill than on realistic settings.

A few were flying around in Japanese aircraft and they were of no concern to me because they were all either slower, or much slower than my aircraft. One of them started crying because he could not understand why I used my aircraft's speed instead of getting in a slow turning fight with a Japanese aircraft, odd......

I flew around at a few thousand meters altitude shooting at whatever ended up in front of me, another fun4all pilot said that what I was doing was not fair, as if anything on that server matters at all. By server rules you are not supposed to "boom and zoom", so why was my aircraft spawning at 9000 meters altitude? shouldn't they be making these chivalrous morons all start off at ground level? I guess you are never supposed to shoot at anyone who is at a lower altitude or speed than you, only those who are higher or slower? Pretty comical.

The last "gamer" I disposed of I did not even have to shoot at, I simply knew how fast my aircraft could dive and he did not. I did not even have to look back, I just watched the large silly colored pointer on my HUD that signified his aircraft zoom quickly to the bottom of the screen, scratch on La-7.......

And at that I had enough "fun" and jumped onto a server with realistic settings and began doing all those hard, senseless things that WWII pilots had to do, like actually looking for other aircraft and identifying them without having large colored banners and arrows pointing at them...

[Igo kyu]

Nice articles Swiss. In the end the point is that it certainly takes a little more skill to fly a WWII fighter aircraft than it does to fly on Fun4All server.

I did fly around on Fun4All for a while to show support for my acquaintance, after all I don't want to be a snob.

So I flew around in a fast late-war allied aircraft for a while. I was at a disadvantage because being used to flying realistic settings for the last dozen years I always fly with things on my mind like blacking or redding out, engine overheating, not to mention a realistic flight model and a cockpit.
I kept the cockpit on for a while as it was there by default, but then I turned it off for a bit and it was odd being able to see your target while you were shooting at it in hard turns while not blacking-out, pretty silly and Pac-Man like and surely needing much less skill than on realistic settings.

A few were flying around in Japanese aircraft and they were of no concern to me because they were all either slower, or much slower than my aircraft. One of them started crying because he could not understand why I used my aircraft's speed instead of getting in a slow turning fight with a Japanese aircraft, odd......

I flew around at a few thousand meters altitude shooting at whatever ended up in front of me, another fun4all pilot said that what I was doing was not fair, as if anything on that server matters at all. By server rules you are not supposed to "boom and zoom", so why was my aircraft spawning at 9000 meters altitude? shouldn't they be making these chivalrous morons all start off at ground level? I guess you are never supposed to shoot at anyone who is at a lower altitude or speed than you, only those who are higher or slower? Pretty comical.

The last "gamer" I disposed of I did not even have to shoot at, I simply knew how fast my aircraft could dive and he did not. I did not even have to look back, I just watched the large silly colored pointer on my HUD that signified his aircraft zoom quickly to the bottom of the screen, scratch on La-7.......

And at that I had enough "fun" and jumped onto a server with realistic settings and began doing all those hard, senseless things that WWII pilots had to do, like actually looking for other aircraft and identifying them without having large colored banners and arrows pointing at them...
So you ditched a friend for not knowing which server to play on. :(

I read the articles, they're all nice, I don't know how true they are but they seem plausible.

[Jumoschwanz]

The point is that after reading the articles, especially the first one, and seeing the many thousands of lives and aircraft lost in WWII in NON-COMBAT incidents, it is clear that maintaining and flying a WWII fighter plane was not a game. If anything it is far too easy to fly IL2 even on realistic settings.

I hear IL2 pilots crying all the time about this or that aircraft because it is too hard for them to control it in turning fights, they spin out or crash or stall. I don't do it in the same plane and lots of their wingmen don't have a problem either, they are the problem.

Flying IL2 on Realistic settings should be hard and a challenge that not all are up to, just as not everyone you know would be able to fly a real one, most of them would wash-out in training or simply not have the nerve or aptitude. A lot of people can not even drive an automobile without regularly getting into fender-benders and ditches.

If you can tough it out flying IL2 on realistic settings then you should feel good about it, especially if you are not the best at it but you keep on trying and learning in silence while having fun.

If all you need is a simple game then by all means fly easy settings and enjoy it, but don't try and discredit flying IL2 on Realistic settings because you can't do it. The history and facts definitely say that flight sims are not for everyone, just as flying an actual aircraft is not.

[IceFire]

He doesn't sound like much of an expert. Just a guy playing (but maybe not enjoying) the game.

IMHO, I'm not a fan of that specific server for the no boom and zoom policy but lets stop judging people for enjoying the settings the way they like it. Too much of that going on recently.

[sniperton]

Hmm, the feel of gravitation and the 180 degrees of FOV surely helps a lot in RL, but flying a sim combat plane is much, much easier IMHO. In RL I would not be allowed, and would not even dare, to take my hands on any plane except perhaps a glider or a small grasshopper.
Those loss statistics are damn real, and are confirmed by personal memoires as well (e.g. LeRoy Gover's Spitfires, Thunderbolts, and Warm Beer).

[Jumoschwanz]

but lets stop judging people for enjoying the settings the way they like it. Too much of that going on recently.


Right, my acquaintance said that flying Realistic settings was bogus because aircraft were not that hard to fly in WWII, he was judging pilots that enjoy flying realistic settings without any of the facts, which I spent my good time finding for him. If you want I could poke around for a reading instructor for you?

[KG26_Alpha]

There's as much comparison with all 2D sims be it cars, bikes, planes or tanks none are realistic at your desktop level PC incarnation to real life
perhaps only visually and audibly can direct comparisons be made.

I cant understand why anyone would think game settings makes anything more realistic,
they simply change the games settings and make nothing realistic just makes the game more difficult.

:rolleyes:

[majorfailure]

There's as much comparison with all 2D sims be it cars, bikes, planes or tanks none are realistic at your desktop level PC incarnation to real life
perhaps only visually and audibly can direct comparisons be made.


I'd think without further training and in an easy to fly plane with a flight instructor present most of the people having a few hundred flight hours in IL-2 would be able to make a few basic maneuvres - no start and landings of course - but I may be wrong. After all you learn a few things about flight physics in IL-2 that are still valid in real life. I'd expect the most startling difference would be the feeling of gravitational forces. I'd bet there are a few virtual pilots out there, that have flown planes in real life, maybe they can tell us something about RL vs. IL?

[KG26_Alpha]

You will never be prepared for the noise vibration and feeling in RL flying.

IL2 sterilizes those sensations into no more than a desktop 2D experience with some procedural button pushing and stick waving at best, the rest is all about gaming the game, its not a simulator,
but it can give you some thrilling experiences with a busy Teamspeak and your fellow pilots screaming for help.


There's lots of different people in squads and flying solo who use the game to suit their needs with CooP's or DogFight missions.
They are all entitled to fly how they see fit and how they interpret the way it should be for them.

:)

[Derda508]

Many, many years ago an uncle of mine allowed me to join him for a flight in an open bi-plane (Bücker Jungmann) he restorated himself for aerobatics.
As Alpha stated: the vibrations and the noise were overwhelming, even befpre take off. Trying to simulate the sound eralistically would bring you into real trouble with your neighbours. It got even louder, when the air was rushing by. I found the headsets for communication pretty useless.
The feel of gravity and acceleration is equally strong. When doing rolls or loopings a beginner has huge problems to trust into his seat belts and not to press both feet on the pedals out of sheer terror (which would not be a good idea). Basic manouevres, like gentle turns almost everybody can master without instructions. It took a while for me to understand the crackling sound of the headset, but at some time my uncle informed me that actually I was flying the plane for about five minutes ...
In a glider noise and gravity are much less radical, but still noticeble. What I remember most is the heat and the blinding of the sun when it wandered through the canopy. Something that I found reflected somehow with the dynamic shadows in CloD, sadly impossible in Il-2.
So I think that at least 50% of the experience are missing.
Luckily, because if they could be implemented most of us would not be allowed to use such a sim for medical reasons.

[Pursuivant]

There are two big things that even folks using "realistic" settings forget.

First, flying a high performance airplane requires a high degree of athleticism, especially if you're pulling serious Gs, and/or you're flying a plane which doesn't have powered control surfaces (and sometimes even then).

Pilots from WW1 and WW2 could easily be physically exhausted just from having to wrestle heavy control surfaces in otherwise "normal" flight. In combat, pilots would get a physical workout pushing on the pedals, pulling the stick/yoke and trying to move around while being pressed down by G forces. That was one of the rationales for choosing young men as pilots.

Second, even the best game graphics and HD screens cannot mimic the real world as seen using the Mk.I Eyeball. Even flying on "full real" settings, you can still typically see distant aircraft far more easily than a real pilot/air crewman could, because the world you see on screen nicely compresses everything into two dimensions. Real life aces spent hours learning how to spot distant aircraft, and rookies were functionally "blind" in that regard.

On the other hand, that 2D display also messes with your depth perception, and graphics which provide less than 15 million pixels per inch resolution (the approximate resolution of the human eye) aren't going to give you the same detail about what you see as you'd get in real life. With that in mind, there's nothing "unrealistic" about having some variety of padlocking and HUD information about targets.

[Janosch]

Hmm, I don't remember real life ww2 pilots having padlock or advanced HUDs.

[KG26_Alpha]

Hmm, I don't remember real life ww2 pilots having padlock or advanced HUDs.

:rolleyes:

I don't remember them clicking re-fly either after plummeting to earth in a meteoric fireball..............

Next time you get killed in IL2 1946 ............ throw the game away and find something else to do.

:)

[IceFire]

After you die one time during the game you have to exit out, uninstall the game, and never play again.

[KG26_Alpha]

After you die one time during the game you have to exit out, uninstall the game, and never play again.

Correct

:)

[Pursuivant]

Hmm, I don't remember real life ww2 pilots having padlock or advanced HUDs.

I don't remember them having to view the world through a computer screen or having to use special controls or devices to turn their heads, either.

Things like padlock and HUD messages correct for the limitations of computer graphics and reduced scope of vision. If implemented properly, they are realistic, even if they look wrong.

[Jumoschwanz]

I cant understand why anyone would think game settings makes anything more realistic,

Wow. Thanks for that gift, making a statement like that on a public forum, that is pure gold.

It would take a pretty delusional person to believe that a computer flight simulator is the same as flying a real aircraft, but a very large percentage of flight schools do use them as part of their training. If what Alpha said made any sense at all, then flight schools would use Pac-Man interchangeably with flight sim software.

I believe I read something about how real combat pilots can black out from G forces in various maneuvers, so lets see would it make IL2 more realistic to have that enabled in the settings or not? Hmmmmmmm, a tough question for Alpha but I am sure a few here might have an answer.

By golly we can even turn off the vulnerability on that IL2 jet and according to Alpha bouncing it off the ground and having bullets and flak bounce off it is no more realistic than having it explode or fall apart in those conditions, and I want to thank Alpha one more time for his statement here okay? Really, I can't thank you enough sir.

Oh, lets take a look at engine overheating. I believe that it is possible for a real aircraft engine to overheat, I believe it may have happened once or twice since the Wright brothers took to the air, but according to Alpha having that disabled in IL2 makes no difference in realism. Thanks for the info Alpha!

G-force limits. Nope, makes no difference. Alpha says that even though real aircraft fell apart when certain G-force limits were reached, that it makes IL2 Sturmovik no more realistic having it's aircraft do the same thing. Those poor, poor members of the development team that wasted their time making that feature for us, maybe Alpha should get on the development teams ASAP and keep them from making similar mistakes in the future? Let us hope this happens soon.....

How about pilot vulnerability and clouds? Limited ammo and fuel? Engine torque? Wind? Stalling? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope and nope, all swept away by Alpha's superior insight and intellect, I guess we can delete them all in the next patch.

I am taking a screenshot of this thread for sure besides saving it as a complete web-page, so if it ever goes away at some point in the future I can reassure myself and maybe other interested parties that it did indeed happen. Thank-you Alpha!


Edit: Got it! Thank God it's safe.......

[IceFire]

Sounds like you might need a vacation. Somewhere tropical and relaxing. :cool:

[KG26_Alpha]

wow. Thanks for that gift, making a statement like that on a public forum, that is pure gold.

It would take a pretty delusional person to believe that a computer flight simulator is the same as flying a real aircraft, but a very large percentage of flight schools do use them as part of their training. If what alpha said made any sense at all, then flight schools would use pac-man interchangeably with flight sim software.

I believe i read something about how real combat pilots can black out from g forces in various maneuvers, so lets see would it make il2 more realistic to have that enabled in the settings or not? Hmmmmmmm, a tough question for alpha but i am sure a few here might have an answer.

By golly we can even turn off the vulnerability on that il2 jet and according to alpha bouncing it off the ground and having bullets and flak bounce off it is no more realistic than having it explode or fall apart in those conditions, and i want to thank alpha one more time for his statement here okay? Really, i can't thank you enough sir.

Oh, lets take a look at engine overheating. I believe that it is possible for a real aircraft engine to overheat, i believe it may have happened once or twice since the wright brothers took to the air, but according to alpha having that disabled in il2 makes no difference in realism. Thanks for the info alpha!

G-force limits. Nope, makes no difference. Alpha says that even though real aircraft fell apart when certain g-force limits were reached, that it makes il2 sturmovik no more realistic having it's aircraft do the same thing. Those poor, poor members of the development team that wasted their time making that feature for us, maybe alpha should get on the development teams asap and keep them from making similar mistakes in the future? Let us hope this happens soon.....

How about pilot vulnerability and clouds? Limited ammo and fuel? Engine torque? Wind? Stalling? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope and nope, all swept away by alpha's superior insight and intellect, i guess we can delete them all in the next patch.

I am taking a screenshot of this thread for sure besides saving it as a complete web-page, so if it ever goes away at some point in the future i can reassure myself and maybe other interested parties that it did indeed happen. Thank-you alpha!


Edit: Got it! Thank god it's safe.......


lol

:)


Sounds like you might need a vacation. Somewhere tropical and relaxing. :cool:

Agreed.

:)