IL2 Mod Makers and Daidalos should Unite

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

How cool would it be if Team Daidalos and the major MOD makers like who made HSFX, SAS, and others got together to bring us all the best from each system, for one big MEGA 4.13 update!

The only real flaw in IL2 is it is fragmented so much, the player base is spread out everywhere.

Everyone's efforts are contributions to improving IL2 anyway, they might as well all get together.

[ECV56_Guevara]

Your idea is very good Whiskey..a lot of DT members were moders IIRC. And the HFSX community is closer to DT than it appears. Others sites as UP or SAS have talented modders but, the specifications to make a plane or a map, are a limit, to be included in a official patch, its must to be followed. And I think DT is opened to everyone that has a serious intention to work in il2 development.

[Pursuivant]

How cool would it be if Team Daidalos and the major MOD makers like who made HSFX, SAS, and others got together to bring us all the best from each system, for one big MEGA 4.13 update!

DT isn't a closed shop.

As I understand it, anyone who has the proper skills and who wants to make content for the game that's up to professional standards is welcome to join the team.

Third party developers who are willing to submit content that's up to DT's standards are also welcome. I know this as a fact since I did the research and initial graphic design that resulted in the historical kill markings feature in the 4.12 patch. (But, DT did a very good job cleaning up my graphics and implementing it in the game.)

My only complaints with DT are that they don't make it easy to get in touch with them, and, as far as I know, they don't ask to borrow content created by the more talented modders which either meets their standards or which could easily be brought up to standard.

[KG26_Alpha]

My only complaints with DT are that they don't make it easy to get in touch with them, and, as far as I know, they don't ask to borrow content created by the more talented modders which either meets their standards or which could easily be brought up to standard.

The more talented modelers can build within the limits of the game engine,
some other mods are beyond the games limits and cause problems
that's why a lot of them are for single player use as they don't work online correctly
or if the mission had more than a few of a particular aircraft with high poly counts or "franken plane" constructions.

Also the flight model has to be made correctly.

Poorly constructed maps with memory leaks are another problem.

[Pursuivant]

Poorly constructed maps with memory leaks are another problem.

Ignorant question, but where do you get memory leaks on a map?

To my ignorant eye, maps seem to be several layers of graphics, plus text files that tell the game engine where to place names and objects on the map.

The main problem seems to be placing too many objects on the map, or making too large a map, which slows down the game.

Where is the coding that could cause a memory leak?

[KG26_Alpha]

IIRC

Overlapping objects or textures can cause leaks.

[Pursuivant]

Overlapping objects or textures can cause leaks.

Hmmm, does that mean that mission builders who place overlapping objects (e.g., like some air race mission) are asking for problems due to memory leaks, or is the problem just limited to overlapping texture "tiles" and objects specifically placed on the map by the map-maker?

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

To me, the biggest thing that seems that would benefit a multi mod team effort/contribution would be mostly the expanding the limited selection of aircraft and maps.

I would think a simple email saying "Hey can we use your plane mod or maps?" would work.

There is a lot of work that goes into all this and I would think everyone would want to share it anywhere, I know I would if I spent all that time making something for this game.

Mostly I just with there was a single file to download for everyone to experience a MEGA IL2 patch, I don't care if it took all night to download it.

All the separate downloads for IL2 just split the populations and kill us off.

[Furio]

"expanding the limited selection of aircraft and maps."


Saying it with a smile, this speaks a lot about our attitude.:)

Il2 has a huge number of planes, flyable and AI, with no peer in gaming industry, at least if any reasonable quality and historical accuracy is considered. And we have a huge selection of maps, ships, vehicles, buildings, etc. However, WW2 was fought on such a scale that it will never be possible to have all battlefields, all ground objects, all aircraft types. Never. Simply look at how much time it took to come where we are today, and make a simple projection in the future.

I would love to see more cooperation between all people still working on game expansion and refinements. But any coordinated effort requires someone able to make decisions, and I see no others than TD in the right position to do so, following 1C guidelines. Decisions always make someone happy and someone other unhappy. Simply like that. Modders took their way and I’m not overly optimistic about the possibility to have a serious integration in the TD development scheme. To say it with other words: I keep my fingers crossed, but not hold my breath.

[KG26_Alpha]

Furio
Do you now if anyone is working or able to work on the graphic dll's
to make use of the newer GPU's

Cheers

[Furio]

Furio
Do you now if anyone is working or able to work on the graphic dll's
to make use of the newer GPU's

Cheers

Sorry, KG, no.:(

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

Saying it with a smile, this speaks a lot about our attitude.:)

Il2 has a huge number of planes, flyable and AI, with no peer in gaming industry, at least if any reasonable quality and historical accuracy is considered. And we have a huge selection of maps, ships, vehicles, buildings, etc. However, WW2 was fought on such a scale that it will never be possible to have all battlefields, all ground objects, all aircraft types. Never. Simply look at how much time it took to come where we are today, and make a simple projection in the future.

Definitely, IL2 is still the best flight sim experience overall, just because of everything you can do, and everyone that can fly the game.

Just seems there are a lot of MAJOR aircraft not represented well, or even at all, such as the B-17 or B-24. Two aircraft that had such pivotal roles in the war.

But when I look at the list of aircraft to select I can get pretty much every model of the BF-109, FW-190, Spits, and the Zeros.

[TexasJG]

HSFX 7.2 adds the B-17, B-24's as well as many other aircraft and features.
Some of the HSFX aircraft are really excellent.
The B-17's are not, sall we say up to DT's standard, but good enough.
Hoping to start modeling new Cockpits for them someday..or year...:rolleyes:
too many projects...too little time....

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

I'm not sure what limitations there are in terms of quality with the HSFX B-17s or the B-24, but I think people just want to fly a historical bomber, other than the JU-88, He-111, or Japanese ones.

Actually, I thought the new bomber mod (can't remember the actual name) for HSFX is pretty nice. I'm not a bomber guy, but it all worked fine for me when I flew bomber.

I know the developers are Russian, but no B-17, yet you have flyable even the most obscure Russian prototype aircraft that never even flew?

[Woke Up Dead]

I know the developers are Russian, but no B-17, yet you have flyable even the most obscure Russian prototype aircraft that never even flew?

DT is very international apparently. It's not a Russian bias, it's what's easier to add to the game. The obscure Russian prototype has only one seat, a few gauges, and a couple of guns; the B-17 has what, seven or eight gunner positions that would have to be modeled? There's an important Russian bomber that's missing from the game too.

[majorfailure]

I'm not sure what limitations there are in terms of quality with the HSFX B-17s or the B-24, but I think people just want to fly a historical bomber, other than the JU-88, He-111, or Japanese ones.

Actually, I thought the new bomber mod (can't remember the actual name) for HSFX is pretty nice. I'm not a bomber guy, but it all worked fine for me when I flew bomber.

I know the developers are Russian, but no B-17, yet you have flyable even the most obscure Russian prototype aircraft that never even flew?

Just a little more patience, we will get a B-24 with the next patch. And a few other nice things...

[IceFire]

I'm not sure what limitations there are in terms of quality with the HSFX B-17s or the B-24, but I think people just want to fly a historical bomber, other than the JU-88, He-111, or Japanese ones.

Actually, I thought the new bomber mod (can't remember the actual name) for HSFX is pretty nice. I'm not a bomber guy, but it all worked fine for me when I flew bomber.

I know the developers are Russian, but no B-17, yet you have flyable even the most obscure Russian prototype aircraft that never even flew?
History of the IL-2 development plus the complexities of American bombers is the reason for all of this stuff. If you only jumped into things in the last say 4-5 years then it wouldn't be as obvious why we have some pretty obscure stuff and are missing some key aircraft either as flyable or them being present at all.

IL-2 was an East Front development. Forgotten Battles carried that tradition on. Pacific Fighters was the first real attempt at giving us something from another theatre (although a later Forgotten Battles patch gave us Normandy and a few American and British aircraft to fly). A lot of the extra efforts were done by third party developers - even most of the obscure Russian prototypes were not done by the main development team. Most of those were either done by third party artists who contributed their work. Some of them showed up in IL-2 1946 were done by RRG (a small Russian group that was also working on Cliffs of Dover with Oleg's original team) which contributed most of the work for that project.

And stuff like the Pe-8, SB-2 and IL-4 were all bombers added by third party developers as well. The Pe-8 actually saw fund raising go on to get professional artists to model each of the stations to game engine standards.

DT is very international apparently. It's not a Russian bias, it's what's easier to add to the game. The obscure Russian prototype has only one seat, a few gauges, and a couple of guns; the B-17 has what, seven or eight gunner positions that would have to be modeled? There's an important Russian bomber that's missing from the game too.

This is pretty much spot on. Weird prototypes like the Bi-1 rocket fighter were both simple to model and done by interested third party. For the American aircraft there were a tone done by third party as well - the P-47, P-63, P-38 and P-40 were all done external to the original developers.

Four engined heavy bombers with multiple stations and complex subsystems and a lot of additional work that goes well above and beyond any single engine fighter. When you guys get your hands on the B-24D you will see just how complex this aircraft is... above and beyond even what the Pe-8 is.

So IL-2 1946 looks like a bit of a jumbled mess of aircraft and it may seem like a waste but it was really that it was a focused product on Eastern Front aircraft only and then later it collected a bunch of other stuff through mostly third party - although Pacific Fighters as a retail product added a bunch as well (although a lot of the content was contracted too).

[Sita]

HSFX 7.2 adds the B-17
The B-17's are not, sall we say up to DT's standard, but good enough.


yeah ...it's because DT Apply some forces for that
But guy from 3rd party canceled that project ...

[ECV56_Guevara]

I'm not sure what limitations there are in terms of quality with the HSFX B-17s or the B-24, but I think people just want to fly a historical bomber, other than the JU-88, He-111, or Japanese ones.

Actually, I thought the new bomber mod (can't remember the actual name) for HSFX is pretty nice. I'm not a bomber guy, but it all worked fine for me when I flew bomber.

I know the developers are Russian, but no B-17, yet you have flyable even the most obscure Russian prototype aircraft that never even flew?

People want to fly what they want to fly. As example, some pilots wanted the Ik3. was significant in numbers? No. Was historical relevant? for them yes. So they developed it or pay for it. The same with other planes hapenned the same.

THe B24 If I am correct took 2 years of work. Free work. Lot of planes were added by a pilot with good skills in 3D and the will to do it. Four engined bombers, are a huge amount of work, I remark, free work. Of course I d love to se Fortres flying in il2 skies, but I guess that its nearly imposible at this time.

[Sita]

THe B24 If I am correct took 2 years of work

wrong... it tooks over 4 year ...

[ECV56_Guevara]

yeah ...it's because DT Apply some forces for that
But guy from 3rd party canceled that project ...
It was in process by DT?
Sita, have you info about the Lancaster adn the western Europe map?
wrong... it tooks over 4 year ...
even worse than I thought, makes my point stronger.

[Sita]

It was in process by DT?

not exactly ... i was trying to help to guy who working on B17 ... and after all ... not finished model of pilot Pit of B17 stays in hand of DT ... but it was not enough quality ... highly not finished status ... so that model with permission of the author was sended to HSFX team ...

its too BIG project


btw ... on B24 was spend over 4 years of real life of two men

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

This is kind of my point.

Other people have done a lot of the work on different parts of this game.

The B-24, or any other flight models, are just examples.

Daidalos is the only real official source for everything to come under one download so everyone that has the game can be on the same version, as much as possible.

Daidalos, in my humble opinion (even if it may be an over simplification), should embark on a campaign to utilize all this work available for download as a source for the things they don't have the time to perfect them selves.

I can't imagine, for instance, the people that spent so long to develop the B-24, or B-17 in HSFX wouldn't want to donate, or share their version with Daidalos.

[A.Fokker]

Furio
Do you now if anyone is working or able to work on the graphic dll's
to make use of the newer GPU's

Cheers

On the SAS site, there is somebody investigating the possibilities of upgrading the IL2 engine.

Look for this thread in the lounge "a new flight sim project". The guy looking into it (Stainless) is a professional game coder. He already did a program to check the functionality of IL-2 models outside of the game. Certainly worth checking out.

Most importantly, the speed with which he produces results is amazing. HE CAN DO. Hopefully he also has the stamina.

[KG26_Alpha]

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm sure he's "in tray" over there's full.

:)

[IceFire]

It was in process by DT?
Sita, have you info about the Lancaster adn the western Europe map?

even worse than I thought, makes my point stronger.

Indeed! Stuff like the B-24 are a true labour of love. The guys spent many hours just researching. Then they went and found one of the few that still fly and took tons of photos. Then they actually went to work on the aircraft. It's an intense process!

[SaQSoN]

I can't imagine, for instance, the people that spent so long to develop the B-24, or B-17 in HSFX wouldn't want to donate, or share their version with Daidalos.

Apparently, there are some, who wouldn't. There are some more, who would take other's work and put their name on it, without even informing original authors, releasing it as their own "mod".

But it isn't the main (bigger) problem. The main problem is that many, if not most, of the stuff, released as mods are unfinished, or not compliant to technical and/or quality standards, under which DT works. Many modders wouldn't have time/desire/skills to follow those standards, while DT has no resources to fix all the stuff themselves. That is why most of the mod stuff does not get into the official release.

Fresh exhample - the B-17 cockpis, Sita mentioned above. They weren't finished by their author to DT snadrds, DT couldn't help the author, neverthelss, the project, being unfinished, was released as mod.

Also, DT wouldn't release in official add-ons models and textures, taken from other game/software projects and converted by modders into the IL-2, like many mod ground vehicles, some aircraft, etc.

[WhiskeyWhiskey]

I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards when the finished product works mostly, with a game that is dying out?

[KG26_Alpha]

Standards are there to stop the game engine getting bogged down and keeping things running smoothly.

[SaQSoN]

I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards

The definition of the word "standard" pretty much unswers this question. Besides,

when the finished product works mostly, with a game

...is not true, by far. Not to mention "works mostly" is not compliant with DT standards by itself.

[Ventura]

I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards when the finished product works mostly, with a game that is dying out?

Because if you were the Captain of a proud Ship knowingly going into it's last battle, you would not lower standards. Your last battle is your legacy.

[majorfailure]

Because if you were the Captain of a proud Ship knowingly going into it's last battle, you would not lower standards. Your last battle is your legacy.

Who knows if it is really the last battle? There was one game to replace IL-2, and where is that game now?

[Ventura]

Who knows if it is really the last battle? There was one game to replace IL-2, and where is that game now?

WhiskeyWhiskeys question was regarding 'standards':
Originally Posted by WhiskeyWhiskey

"I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards when the finished product works mostly, with a game that is dying out?"

The topic is:"IL2 Mod Makers and Daidalos should Unite"

I'm not being facetious, but where exactly are you going with this?
Maybe you want to start a new topic?

[Tuphlandng]

WhiskeyWhiskeys question was regarding 'standards':
Originally Posted by WhiskeyWhiskey

"I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards when the finished product works mostly, with a game that is dying out?"

The topic is:"IL2 Mod Makers and Daidalos should Unite"

I'm not being facetious, but where exactly are you going with this?
Maybe you want to start a new topic?


Dying out???? I have only had IL2 for 10 years It cant die out LOL
Lasted lounger then Cliffs of Dover And for Me 2 days after I purchased COD i learned that it was no lounger being supported by the developers. Team Daidalos and the modders are what keep us players interested.

To everyone working on IL2 From the TD Modders Map makers and skinners Thanks for all your hard work and dedication.
Your All the best

[gaunt1]

I guess I would wonder why it would matter to be so picky with standards when the finished product works mostly, with a game that is dying out?

It looks like Battle of Stalingrad will also be unable to replace IL-2.
Main strenght of good old IL-2 is that lots of people fly allied and even japanese planes. Where else do you find them other than in IL-2? CloD is dead, DCS:ww2 is still in deveopment (and will be for many years), and the older sims, like CFS3, well, better not speak of them.
And not only this. People who mainly like late german or soviet planes, BoS will still be a disappointment. Probably some Yak-9, La5, Bf-109G6+, Fw-190A4+ variants will be included later in the sim, but that will also take lots of time, and not in the same quantity as in IL-2. For people who like flying bombers (like me), IL-2 is still much better. Pe-8, Il-4, Ju-88, A-20, etc. will probably never make it to BoS.
And if TD eventually releases night fighters with working radars... :)
So while certainly lost some popularity, I would not call IL-2 dying out.
TD is the main reason why IL-2 is still lives, (and getting better and better!) and many many thanks for it!

[KG26_Alpha]

BOS needs 10 years development yet,
unfortunately the WW2 flight sim market is smaller than it was 15 years ago.

It will be painfully slow before its anywhere near the theater coverage IL2 1946 has.

[Igo kyu]

unfortunately the WW2 flight sim market is smaller than it was 15 years ago.
I'm not convinced this is true, there are loads of "arcade" WW2 flight sims on Amazon.co.uk, they wouldn't be there if they didn't sell.

[KG26_Alpha]

Flight sim is the key word.

Arcade games are pick up put down items for gamers.

If you want a serious Sim as BoS is you need a different client from a gamer to get the cash in.

[Pursuivant]

If you want a serious Sim as BoS is you need a different client from a gamer to get the cash in.

BoS might survive and thrive if it uses the RoF business model where you can pay for additional content and upgrades. That helps to attract the Flight Sim crowd, who think nothing of spending $5-20 a pop to buy spiffy new content and provides continuous cash for development rather than the boom and bust cycle of introducing stand alone add-on games.

There's also something to be said for the War Thunder or World of Tanks model, where you can pay to upgrade your airplane's weapons and loadouts. That is, everyone might get to fly the basic model P-51D, but if you want certain loadouts, like rockets, or rarities like 20mm cannons, then you have to pay extra.

[Furio]

Flight sim is the key word.


Agreed on that.
Another key word is “consensus”. As any thread can prove, and this one is no exception, general consensus simply doesn’t exist. I would love to be proved wrong, but I can’t believe that people with so different quality standards (and sometimes correctness standard) would unite in a great goodwill project to expand Il2. Besides different standards, there are different goals. Should the ultimate goal of this “Great Il2” be all missing theatres of WWII? Korean War? Spanish Civil War? And what about priorities? Which theatre comes first? Which planes, maps, features?

Any complex project requires someone who makes decisions. As I see it, TD is the only group that can guarantee this decisional level. Perhaps, the thread title should be more fittingly changed to: “Modders should unite under TD control”. I would love to see this happening, but I’m not holding my breath.

[KG26_Alpha]

One of the core reasons of conflict between 2 modding houses HSFX & UP was lack of consensus and standards.

Eventually one self destructed under its own inability to listen to the clients and force a particular mod to handle all online flying
by removing network code for CooP mode, the other survived and has continued its support for the community.

That said there were many other conflicts and ego's involved, it looked bad for a while.

TD would be the choice of leadership.

[BadAim]

It would seem that this is exactly what is happening. TD is building the base code to something better and stronger. HSFX gives an easy to install and stable base mod pack that is very conducive to SEOW and all sorts of online activities. SAS and Free modding give those who want to make their own choices about quantity v quality a venue for finding said mods. Hell those nutty Frenchmen are even building a new sim out of IL2 to satisfy "punch every button and flip every switch" types (oh, yeah I'll be getting my paws on that).

As often as not history tends to unfold itself despite anyone's intentions. Of course individual muckrakers can stick their rake in the works, as has happened before.

We'll see.

[Hans Burger]

I am french and I am not a "nutty" guy.
Of course, I know Histomod and I am informed of what about they prepare. As far as I know, they have choosen some "developments" in line with what they want to do with WW2 simulation.

Now, the basic freedom is very simple: use if you agree with this approach or don't use if you don't like it.

:wink:

[TexasJG]

Ithose nutty Frenchmen are even building a new sim out of IL2 to satisfy "punch every button and flip every switch" types (oh, yeah I'll be getting my paws on that).

I'd love to see IL-2 with complete systems functionality.... :cool:

[Furio]

I am french and I am not a "nutty" guy.
Of course, I know Histomod and I am informed of what about they prepare. As far as I know, they have choosen some "developments" in line with what they want to do with WW2 simulation.

Now, the basic freedom is very simple: use if you agree with this approach or don't use if you don't like it.

:wink:

Another way to say that Modders and TD should unite (as the thread title says) but it’s unlikely to happen.

[Jumoschwanz]

WhiskeyWhiskey's attitude is typical of the modders, impatient for new toys.

From the beginning the official versions of IL2 have offered a lot of variety, a lot of new patches and a lot of reliability and stability.

Hacks and Mods for IL2 were always born out of hurt and impatient egos, those who's favorite aircraft and it's weapons were not good enough to make up for their shortcomings as virtual pilots, and those who's parents probably spoiled them as children with new toys every time they whined a little.

It is a fact that hacks/mods fragmented the IL2 community just as they fragmented and destroyed the Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator experience before it, and others before and since that in the gaming world in general.

It is always impatient or poor players trying to game the system instead of improving themselves instead.

The answer to "Why doesn't DT work with modders?", is that hacks and mods are simply not up to snuff, that is why there are countless threads about their hacked IL2 installations crashing and freezing. That never happens with a correctly installed official patch of IL2.

If you want to speed up the development of IL2 then quit flying mods. That way the community will get back on one page and the bored children/hackers will either do things right and do what DT wants, or they will go bother some other community.

IL2 has been around as long as it has because it still has developers approved by it's creator and they have steadily put out excellent updates and patches that adults really do appreciate.

[TexasJG]

DT members and HFSX members do or at least have collaborated in the past.
As we have 3d fov and moving dogfight servers, which have migrated from HFSX to DT works (among others).
My understanding, as from other post here and the DT credits, is some of the DT members work or have worked the HSFX project, and/or vise versa. (not sure about SAS members), but no matter. If you read the credits from the DT current and previous patches, you'll see who all contributed, which are several "modders" so to speak in the credits.

And one benefit from this is the NG thing is irrelevant.

Another Point is, I (or you) have the ability to contribute and not just complain with a very high quality mod, to DT's standards, that is (He177 or B-24, case in point), and it too has the possibility of making it into an official patch, which would be just really cool to see.
(excluding ng stuff, but, as stated, that is already taking care of :cool: )