A warbird control stick

[C6_Trollbug]

To make echo with the judicious remark of SlipBall, I open a specific subject here.
And I present myself:

I’m one of the “mud movers” of the “C6” squad (France)
Some months ago , I encountered two guys , a pilot of jet to the retirement, and an industry manager. Two simmers , two collectors impassioned by the second world war.The Tarmac Aces Team was born. And we made a dream : to carry out a control stick the most reliable, most precise, most resistant possible, equipped with the exact replica of a handle having existed...
We’ve done it !
The Tarmac Aces team carried out the most precise and most realistic central position control stick existing at the present time. These reports come from all the simmers (from all flight simulations games) which had the opportunity to test it at the Simulation Meeting of Le Bourget the 21 to 23 September.
They expressed their satisfaction as well for its precision as for its realism of catch in hand. We thank them for their analyses and feedbacks which enable us to increase the adequacy of our productions with their whishes.
This performance level is the result of hundreds of hours of research and development that the Tarmac Aces team devoted to this project, and to the technological innovations challenges.
The community initiated and encouraged this challenge. This is why, in accordance with our credo "by simmers, for simmers", we wish to facilitate the access to this level of piloting and feelings at the community.
Even if the budget necessary to the purchase appears significant, once announced at the simmers which had it in hands at Le Bourget Simulation Meeting (21-23 september 2007), it was regarded as amply justified by the users : ... Just have a look on the simmers testimonies in the “news” column of our website!
You can discover it here :
http://tarmac-aces.com/
We accommodate your proposals for a replica to be studied in the briefing room . Vote before 31/10/07 !

Good flight !

C6_Trollbug

[SlipBall]

A fine product like your's, deserves it's own thread...cheers

[RockStar]

Agreed Slipball. Awesome looking hardware guys!

[proton45]

It is (obviously) quite an impressive achievement (that joystick).
I will never be able to afford one...but quite impressive none the less.

I would be even more impressed if you could bring one in at an affordable price (LOL).

A gourmet joystick!

Now serving bandits everywhere.

[GADGET]

We are already convinced that for 500€ it would be a lot of a joystick, but we are still unaware of what we buy for that big money...

1) The 500€ only includes the base and it is really 850€ for a functional set.
2) Electronics are merely a Leo Bodnar's card.
3) No information is suplied in any way of the materials or intrincacies of the device.
4) No idea whatsoever of what it does and how.
5) We have no information of how grips can be adapted, using what kind of standards. Can we adapt a Cougar or X-52 grip and how?
6) What degree of "bricolage" is needed to adapt this device to a PC system to a functional level?

I confess that I am really interested in this product and that I have asked several times about more information (never received on the other hand, just good words), but I will retain my hard earned money for this overpriced device until more information is available and I would be in position to take a decission.

Please include the neccesary information on the website... it looks as if you were hiding something.

[SlipBall]

A very nice looking product at your website. I too would like more information

Is this a USB devise, is there software needed, what type of warranty is there?......thanks

[C6_Krasno]

For the software at least :
It's completely plug-and-play with any OS :Windows 2000, Me, XP, Vista, MacOSX : no driver is needed.

[Tte. Costa]

Noob here but...
If theres no need for software How do you use the radio button for Team Speak or Roger Wilko?
I´ve made some bricolage to and I´ve installed this one http://www.mfca.de/htm/kg13.htm in to a CH Joystik.
In any case you have made avery refined job. Congrats and good luck in your busines.

[GADGET]

More grip alternatives:

http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~swift/MyPage/menu0.html

http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~swift/MyPage/user_images/20070807Top.jpg
http://www12.ocn.ne.jp/~swift/MyPage/album/swift_2/swift_34.jpg

[heywooood]

those are seriously well executed....

pit builder extremists might think about this kind of hardware if they are less gifted in mfg and design than they are $$$$ loaded....

a rather small demographic methinks....

[GADGET]

Well, the Japanese KG12A is 113€, I find it quite competitive considering that the German KG13 replica is in the same price range and that there are only 3 manufacturers in the market. And they also come wired for flight simming use.

By the way, the TARMAC ACES replica is........... 280€ !!!!!! more than twice the price of the others.

I would like some responsible of the company to explain us why we should pay more for their products. I am realy curious to know what we get for our hard earned money, before purchasing anything. So far, we got only good words and two low quality pictures but no technical data whatsoever.

[SG1_Gunkan]

I remenber a shop near Akihabara, Tokyo. They sold fighters model and replicas. But, and that is my point, they have no movement at all. You can't use it to recreate your own control stick.

[ruxtmp]

I agree with everyone that the stick looks real nice but is way overpriced as is the base ($1200 for both :shock: ). I could purchase the electronics and have a local machine shop make a one off precision metal gimbal for a few hundred dollars less.

BU0386: $50.00 (12bit) (10bit is a little less expensive)
Hall sensors: $200.00
Precision gimbal: $250.00

Still expensive but I just saved $210.
I know that they have to make a profit but that may be a little much especially since you do not get the stick.

[C6_Trollbug]

Hello !

First , one important thing to know : my tailor is rich, but my english is poor ! ;-)
Second, most of the information you want, Gadget, is on our webpage . It appears that my english translation is awful, and so, these informations aren't clear .
I apologize for this bad translation . An american simmer kindly offered me to correct our webpage , so I hope it will be soon more informative for every english speaker.

Third , another thing must be clear : Tarmac Aces is a Team , not a company . We are simmers , sustained by a small company, of course, but simmers . The Tarmac Aces project will not help us to feed our families , but it will feed our passion !:)
The beginning of this project can be found here (it's a french forum) : http://www.checksix-forums.com/showthread.php?t=105622
And we are still working with other french speaking simmers on this project .
On the base will be easily connected other flight controls : trims, throttle , rudder (will be released soon), and replicas of switches ( RLM Fl21118 (magneto selector), RLM Fl21211 (starter clutch), RLM Fl32315 (ignition button) are yet sketched )
So the base can be used as the "central interface" of a simpit .

@Gadget, you're right, we are hiding something : the result of the hundreds of hours of research and developpement we spent on the base (note that we didn't earned even one cent for this work). This result is a revolution .
A sturdy assembling at the tenth of millimetre, on ball bearings. No play . The least movement of the stick gives an information to the sensors . No return to the center.
We made the choice of the innovation and we use only high quality components . High quality components are very expensive, we can't do anything against that .
The ratiometric Hall Effect sensors we use are high-grade sensors , 60 times more precise than the better cermet potentiometer (and without any digital amplification ! ), with a response time under the quarter of a millisecond . In accordance with IP67 , shielded against magnetic fields and radio waves .
The precision of the mechanism combined with the precision of the sensors, and the 40° of travel of the 40 cm stick (as a real one) gives you an unbelievable precision of flying that can't be compared to no other joystick .

1) 500+280=780 ;-)
2) yes , Leo made a very reliable controller , why shouldn't we use it ? We are simmers , not electronics engineers . (and if you know someone who wants to do the job of engraving the PCB , soldering all the diods and connectors on the diod matrix PCB and all the connectors of the connector panel , just tell me : it's not my favourite hobby, and we're looking for someone wich could do that job)
3) picked on the Tarmac Aces webpage : "...materials : composite materials ..." Different kinds of composite materials are used (some of them are as hard as steel) . The use of the grip will slowly wear his paint , and under this paint , aluminium color will appear . Some other parts will slowly look a bit rusty . And on some other parts, originally made of bakelite , the color of bakelite will slowly appear . Two members of the team are model makers .
4) the mechanical system of management of the efforts of the base reproduce the feeling of having in hand a real control stick , with all the rods to the control surfaces . One member of the Tarmac Aces Team is a pilot on the retirement of the French Airforce . He knows these feelings .
5) you will have to unscrew two flat-head screws , unlock a connector and unplug it .Easy ! The KG13 is our first grip . The SEMMP (the grip of the Mirage III, Mirage F1, Super Etendard, Jaguar, Alphajet (nicknamed "Gadget" ;-) ) will soon be available . And the Spitfire grip , too .
6) you will have to plug an USB connector , and do a calibration in your Windows Control Panel .

"I have asked several times about more information (never received on the other hand, just good words)" Gadget , I'm surprised : did you used the "mailto" link in our webpage ? I answered all the asks I received . Our webpage had some problems at the beginnig , but they are solved today .

@Tte.Costa
"If theres no need for software How do you use the radio button for Team Speak or Roger Wilko? "
Very good remark ! Do you know Joytokey ? This little software works perfectly !

@ruxtmp , when I bought my Cougar, two years ago , it took me six hours to conceive and carry out my own Mod, a gimbal system on ball bearings, with traction springs and no central play . It cost me 60 € .
I spent hundreds hours on the Tarmac Aces base and its parts .
Our goal is to try to progress the flight simulation hardware. To make the most realistic possible. It may be your goal, too.
:wink:

Good flight !

[Evil_Merlin]

I'll stick with my Thrustmaster Cougar.

It was only $250 and give me all I need with the exception of forcefeedback.

Yes Trollbug, you make a great product, but it is highly overpriced for today's sim market, which quite frankly, has been dying a slow death for the past 7-10 years.


While I appreciate the huge amount of engineering and research that went into this product, I have a feeling that its not going to be an easy sell, as most people pay less for their sim computers than this setup.

I wish you the best of luck none the less!

[GADGET]

Thank you for your answers C6_Trollbug.

English is either my native language, but apparently we arrived to an understandement here.

It is nice to finally recive information about your product. I asked twice as soon as it was public the creation of the company and I revealed my intentions as a buyer. Check your e-mails please, it is easy because my nick is also my email.

I understand perfectly your situation, as I am also involved in developing products for flight simmers and I have been following the development of the joystick since the begining on C6 forums... even we coud cooperate as we have the capability of providing the electronics and sofware for your stick. ;)

I know how expensive things are, specially in small stocks, but just because products become so expensive, customers deserve extra-good information about what they are buying for those mega-€. Please include the information suplied above also in your website. I can even make the translation into Spanish if you need so.

As I said I am stil interested in purchasing your stick base but I still have some questions:

1) No return to center, so what is the artificial feeling system utilized?
2) How is the gimbal system used.
3) What kind of sticks can we use (metal or plastic, diameter, etc) and are they suplied by your team?
4) What are the posibilities of using the stick base as a mod for other brands, such as ThrustMaster or Saitek.
5) How is the wiring from the grip connected through/by the stick base.
6) Do you offer some kind of guarante for your products?

Finally

7) When do you plan to offer B4 or B8 grips for American planes? I am interested in the Corsair grip, but the 4 buttons version.

Thank you for your answers

[C6_Trollbug]

Hello !

Many thanks to two simmers, 352ndChaco and JVM , a new translation for our english website is online !
There are some good news in the Briefing Room page , and in the News page too ...

C6_Trollbug

PS :
@Gadget :
1) it's a revolution , but a secret :twisted:
2) secret too .... :twisted:
3) the sticks are supplied by Tarmac Aces : look at the Briefing Room !
4) it's not planned
5) a locking cylindric connector (as in a real plane :wink: )
6) technically , it's built to last at least 20 years . Commercially , we didn't examined it yet ...
7) when we'll have access to a real one , of course . If the curator of an aircraft museum is one of your friends , talk to him of us , and let me know :wink:

Good flight !

[GADGET]

Thank you for your answers and the new translations.

Nevertheless, I don't know if I speak for other potential customers here, but the word "secret" for a simple tech description of a product not explained on the website well enough , and knowing that you are a three friend group and that so far you offer no commercial garantee for this 800€ device, does no good for your sales.

As I said already on my last e-mail, I will wait to see a more mature product, or at least until I know how it works and if it suits my needs.

On the other hand, when for the Spitfire spade grip? What version?

A sugestion for american grips. We found on the Spanish Do.27s that they use B4 grips. You also might have some in France.

Also, T-6s use the same pedals as Mustangs.

[-Sulan-]

I think the stick seams awesome!!! :)
Amazing work!!

I´m seriously contemplating a buy (SoW:BoB has to come out first though). But as Gadget said, a guarantee would go a long way to tip the scales towards a buy!

:)
Good luck with the products!!!

[Jutocsa]

Hello !

PS :
@Gadget :
1) it's a revolution , but a secret
2) secret too ....
3) ..
4) it's not planned
.
.
.


No offence meant at all, but considering those answers I must ask...arent you by any chance Oleg himself ? :D

[Tbag]

LOL

[DKoor]

Nope.... he is missing be sure™ line 8)