Fatigue ingame..

[GOZR]

Well i read somewhere that BOB will have fatigue included.. and that make me sad.. if Maddox will design a correct FM a correct engine management and a correct world weather ( turbulences, hot cold mass water land ) FM correctly the Sim pilot will be naturally tired and please "NO more Il2 i fly my plane like a drive my car..." That would you want to have also fatigue simulated IN the sim ?
Any re-generation like in quake3 then ?
Or maybe the fatigue will be only implemented in arcade mode and no engine management?.. that ok

While flying around tired suddenly!!!..... There is an enemy on my six and ofcourse I will have a serious rush of adrenaline pumping to my blood.. is this will be modeled as well..?

You guys asked for fatigue but just try to get some real engine and surfaces management and I'm sure you will get tired..

We already have New pilot G's modeled...

[zapatista]

if you want to SIMULATE how a real pilot flew and maneuvered his plane during combat in ww2, you have to include pilot fatigue, its that simple.

it was an extremely important variable during a protracted engagement and determined the type of maneuvers a pilot could make, and for how long he could sustain the engagement.

otherwise you have created a cartoon game where you have superman at the controls. the prolonged erratic stick stirring and hr long giant furrballs that you see online right now didnt exist in real life for that exact reason.

why dont you read some historical accounts of what actually happened aircraft combat in ww2.

[GOZR]

To a point it's BS.. if the pilot have fatigue how are you going to make the rush of adrenaline? you will get because in RL it's the case BIG time .. I'm more worry about where to pee than fatigue...
Complete Arcade.. what about real management ? hum ... that will make you fatigue real quick and think twice before engaging and also better management better performance better aces etc.. this is bad.. seriously very quaky!!

Yeas you get tired for sure i don't need to read no book for now, i have my own experiences in warbirdS..
has a new pilot yeas you get tired and also more prone to G's and yes btw many just crashed just from fainting on G's .. But like guys that have a lots of hours in flights and fights ... hum? also I garanty you if you fly your plane correctly and if maddox make is sim good you will get tired and fade up to do all your management.

[GOZR]

Giant fireball in IL2 you must be kidding right ?
We will have two fatigue.. ingame and myself behind the monitor.. double fatigue.. I'll be tired of my fatigue ...

Anyway some reflection need to be done here ..

I'm curious of what everyone think or hope ..

[DKoor]

if you want to SIMULATE how a real pilot flew and maneuvered his plane during combat in ww2, you have to include pilot fatigue, its that simple............or I will still outturn all your FWs 10x in row in my brand new Spit25.

[JG27_brook]

Well i read somewhere that BOB will have fatigue included.. and that make me sad.. if Maddox will design a correct FM a correct engine management and a correct world weather ( turbulences, hot cold mass water land ) FM correctly the Sim pilot will be naturally tired and please "NO more Il2 i fly my plane like a drive my car..." That would you want to have also fatigue simulated IN the sim ?
Any re-generation like in quake3 then ?
Or maybe the fatigue will be only implemented in arcade mode and no engine management?.. that ok

While flying around tired suddenly!!!..... There is an enemy on my six and ofcourse I will have a serious rush of adrenaline pumping to my blood.. is this will be modeled as well..?

You guys asked for fatigue but just try to get some real engine and surfaces management and I'm sure you will get tired..

We already have New pilot G's modeled...Agree im all ready having too knok back 5/10 energy drinks too fly now :cry:

[fly_zo]

if you want to SIMULATE how a real pilot flew and maneuvered his plane during combat in ww2, you have to include pilot fatigue, its that simple............or I will still outturn all your FWs 10x in row in my brand new Spit25.

... that your spit 25 starts to hunt me in my dreams ... :D

ili kao Kosorica iz paštete he he ... samo udri s lobiranjem baš me zanima jel bude kakvog efekta...

pozdrav
Z

[Brain32]

what about real management ? hum ... that will make you fatigue real quick and think twice before engaging
You mean engine management? If so I see no problem here, engine management does not produce phisical fatique, it produces psyhical fatique but no need to simulate fatique by managing engine since you will have it on yourself pressing all those buttons, watching all those gauges etc.
How would you model psyhical fatique anyway? :shock:
What, you turn your head with TIR to check your six and it doesen't happen in game, instead a message on the screen appears:
"Virtual pilot too tired to be interested in his six!"
Or maybe, screen goes black and suddenly a message appears:
"You looked at gauges two times in a row, and swtiched 3 switches, your pilot is exhausted and taking an afternoon nap, have a nice day and hope you trimmed for level flight!"

What we would like is to stop endless gray-out riding that is possible in il2 and greatly benefits better turning planes that can just pull 5-6G's anytime they need it...

[RegRag1977]

I'm for pilot fatigue at 100%

Fatigue is the element of the sim that will give back the advantage to the pilot, not to the machine (like in the real world).

Pulling the stick during the whole engagement is a noob reflex.

Figures we can read when we look at the different aircrafts are lying because of the human being factor. There's a margin for all types: the human being margin.

Yes the zeke will outurn and outclimb anything in the game, but no longer during 10 min of pure and aggressive dogfight (like we can see now with lot of models) We will have to think whether or not to engage.

Entering and staying for a prolonged time in the furball is a noob behaviour.

Like turning, climbing, dodging everything for hours against multiple opponents because we engaged stupidly.

Fatigue will make team tactics more important, especially for types like the Spitfire Yaks La and japanese late wars. The "individual spirit" will lose, and that will be more realistic too.

With the fatigue the fear to die will be higher than the greed for kills.

PS People say fatigue will model a noob pilot when "they" have a lot of experience: but in the real world rare are those who fought a war lol. And remember all the virtual lives you spend before being experienced. In real war, keep in mind that you would all be dead: no hit refly. In other words you would have died with zero experience.

[RegRag1977]

PS With IL2 you can do a hard and PAINFUL (sorry for caps) maneuver that costs a lot of human energy AND be precise to make a superb deflection shot LOL

Pulling more than 20 kg with arms and being able to be precise with you feet for the deflection shot is definitely not realistic.

Sure we are Armchair pilot, but anything that will make it closer from the real thing is welcome as far as i'm concerned.

Stupid questions: how many times did you disengage a fight in IL2 or is it only a 190 jock option :lol:
Is it, according to you, realistic? :lol:

[DKoor]

if you want to SIMULATE how a real pilot flew and maneuvered his plane during combat in ww2, you have to include pilot fatigue, its that simple............or I will still outturn all your FWs 10x in row in my brand new Spit25.

... that your spit 25 starts to hunt me in my dreams ... :D

ili kao Kosorica iz paštete he he ... samo udri s lobiranjem baš me zanima jel bude kakvog efekta...

pozdrav
Z :D 8)

..........the point being;
What we would like is to stop endless gray-out riding that is possible in il2 and greatly benefits better turning planes that can just pull 5-6G's anytime they need it...

[RegRag1977]

if you want to SIMULATE how a real pilot flew and maneuvered his plane during combat in ww2, you have to include pilot fatigue, its that simple............or I will still outturn all your FWs 10x in row in my brand new Spit25.

... that your spit 25 starts to hunt me in my dreams ... :D

ili kao Kosorica iz paštete he he ... samo udri s lobiranjem baš me zanima jel bude kakvog efekta...

pozdrav
Z :D 8)

..........the point being;
What we would like is to stop endless gray-out riding that is possible in il2 and greatly benefits better turning planes that can just pull 5-6G's anytime they need it...

I can only agree with this statement :| the turning and burning A/C pilots are overmodelled.

[Avimimus]

Someone needs to look up some scientific papers on fatigue in sports or combat situations (as well as loss of night vision which is totally undermodeled)

[zapatista]

To a point it's BS.. if the pilot have fatigue how are you going to make the rush of adrenaline? you will get because in RL it's the case BIG time .. I'm more worry about where to pee than fatigue...
Complete Arcade.. what about real management ? hum ... that will make you fatigue real quick and think twice before engaging and also better management better performance better aces etc.. this is bad.. seriously very quaky!!

Yeas you get tired for sure i don't need to read no book for now, i have my own experiences in warbirdS..
has a new pilot yeas you get tired and also more prone to G's and yes btw many just crashed just from fainting on G's .. But like guys that have a lots of hours in flights and fights ... hum? also I garanty you if you fly your plane correctly and if maddox make is sim good you will get tired and fade up to do all your management.

you dont seem to have a clue about the importance of pilot fatique in flying these older aircraft in ww2, neither do you seem willing to look at historical facts on the subject and inform yourself a bit better, and now you'r trying to claim having flown a pc game like warbirds makes you an expert on the topic ?

flying combat maneuvers in a dogfight involves a lot of physical strength to handle the stick and rudder pedals, and pilots would fatigue quickly.

[GOZR]

When i say warbird i say warbird ..
Now i give you an example that you book pilot may understand .. While racing a motorcycle like say open class you are on board of an very power full bike versus many other guys well you will have to give a lots in physical.. for a certain time.. there will be fatigue but also while pulling some hard corners, acceleration you will yes be fatigue but the adrenaline pumping will keep you in the hard race but when stopping you will be very tired and so exausted and than maybe write a book about how hard and difficult it is yes.. but now in a yak 9 when you fuel keep you in the sky for lets 55 minutes and like the Normandie niemen guys that probably just flew in many many occasion just for 40 minutes not full fuel tank well the fatigue will take a different aspect as well ..

So yes fatigue is cool but how this will be modeled? This is the big concern... some kind of modern cod4 blur vision ? not as fast or force to respond? pulling the stick not that hard ?And where the adrenaline is coming in can make the pilot do miracle like in many occasions when faced to death, actually how this will be modeled? is this will be in consideration ?

This really need some attention and definitely some server side settings, maybe it will be just a better design of the blur G's .. Good questions to the Oleg team..

Right now you can accomplish very weird figures in il2 due to a not good weight, force, torque design, no weather air mass movement design etc.. That should change those FW190 flip flop with no ending flying style.. this 190 is an example..

[ElAurens]

Currently all aircraft are modeled without factory defects, or production line variations, as it's the only way to pull off an electronic simulation with any kind of balance.

So... How are we going model our pilots? There are far more variations in the human machine than in any number of WW2 aircraft.

Is your pilot 18 years old and very fit or 25 years old and less so?

Too much time at the pub last night?

Flew a difficult mission yesterday evening and now have to scramble early in the morning?

This will be a gigantic can of worms to implement, and will make the FM wars of the past seem trivial.

[BP_Jagger]

I'd assume that it will in part be based on:

1. G's
2. Altitude
3. Wounds

Then again, it also maybe based on progressive fatigue/multiple missions.

Example: Your pilot is flying in an AC which sustains damage to it's oxygen system, thus causing him to be restricted to a lower altitude, or face the "fatigue" issues of altitude.

[RegRag1977]

Currently all aircraft are modeled without factory defects, or production line variations, as it's the only way to pull off an electronic simulation with any kind of balance.

So... How are we going model our pilots? There are far more variations in the human machine than in any number of WW2 aircraft.

Is your pilot 18 years old and very fit or 25 years old and less so?

Too much time at the pub last night?

Flew a difficult mission yesterday evening and now have to scramble early in the morning?

This will be a gigantic can of worms to implement, and will make the FM wars of the past seem trivial.

I don't think so. We already have a single pilot model for all A/C in the sim and nobody is complaining about the fact that in real life he would not black out like the modeled pilot we all have...Let us all have the same restrictions based on something average (like what we already have in IL2)

[GOZR]

Yes the G we have in game based on a weaker pilots ..

Your pilot is flying in an AC which sustains damage to it's oxygen system, thus causing him to be restricted to a lower altitude,
Things like that are actually great i agree because it is very real.. when pilots have been shoot some modern blur etc.. could be nice yes..
Many many planes are not modeled to their full strength.

[Brain32]

.. but now in a yak 9 when you fuel keep you in the sky for lets 55 minutes and like the Normandie niemen guys that probably just flew in many many occasion just for 40 minutes not full fuel tank well the fatigue will take a different aspect as well ..
And how did they fly this 40 mins? Did they pull 5-6G's break every 15seconds or so for ENTIRE 40mins of flight?
Heck even today's Raptor pilots with fancy moden G-suits that were trained for G endurance would go nuts after 40mins of such flight, and you think a bunch of farmboys(no disrespect meant) in leather jackets did so on daily basis like you can in il2?

And I don't get your "andrenaline burst" thingy, for me to suprise you, you need to be out of combat in normal flight regime, that would be BEFORE you got tired by x-number of high G manouvers...

[GOZR]

You'd never fight for 40 minutes.. but you fly 40 minutes..

[GOZR]

How long was your dogfight or any continuous fight with actual humans on a server full switch ( the rest wont count too much arcadish that need fatigue settings).. Just by curiosity?
Have you ever did some match serious competition for example against some great international team? with some good mission objectives .. how long was your engagement in dogfight knowing that you have one life or maybe two max.

Just by curiosity..

[rosaenrico]

First of all, salute to everybody on this new forum.

Gozr: the extraordinary resistance of our virtual pilot (he can apply 50 lbs continuously for an undefined time and sustain 5 + G also for an undefined time) allows a flight style and tactics (hard evading maneuvers lasting ad infinitum) greatly different from any realistic counterpart (only 2-3 minutes of hard maneuvers before fatigue, since the importance of advantage), something that a simulator should take count of.

[6S.Manu]

How long was your dogfight or any continuous fight with actual humans on a server full switch ( the rest wont count too much arcadish that need fatigue settings).. Just by curiosity?
Have you ever did some match serious competition for example against some great international team? with some good mission objectives .. how long was your engagement in dogfight knowing that you have one life or maybe two max.


Air War Force... CAP mission.

Enemy fighters attack you before the bombers arrive: your objective is to intercept the bombers and to stay alive.

Action over base can last 20min... until the bombers arrive... and at the end you have to return home.

[Insuber]

Hi all,

My opinion is that fatigue should be an option - or several ones - to tick in the "difficulty" settings.

Add this to "full real" settings and you'll have an even more challenging simulation, regardles of the way they implement it.

Regards,
Insuber

[DKoor]

How long was your dogfight or any continuous fight with actual humans on a server full switch ( the rest wont count too much arcadish that need fatigue settings).. Just by curiosity?
Have you ever did some match serious competition for example against some great international team? with some good mission objectives .. how long was your engagement in dogfight knowing that you have one life or maybe two max.


Air War Force... CAP mission.

Enemy fighters attack you before the bombers arrive: your objective is to intercept the bombers and to stay alive.

Action over base can last 20min... until the bombers arrive... and at the end you have to return home.I have one track.....me in 190 vs some good guy in Spitfire......
Over 30mins.
I have it somewhere.

End: I ruined the engine and glided down he overshoot, stalled and I got the kill.

Must be very high in the "total fluke" kills chart................

BTW.........yes I ruined the FW engine, and he - he flew on 200% all the time since he first climbed up and then tailed me close for almost 30mins.................and if it wasn't for pure luck, clownfire model would take another victim!

Un-rightfully so.

[ElAurens]

DKoor, I thought this thread was about fatigue?

Must you always, always bring up your dislike of the Spitfire?

This is a new forum, can't we please have an adult discussion, and save the "plane X is uber/clowncar" comments for elsewhere?

[DKoor]

Spitfire model is in close relation to this issue.
When you have fatigue modeled...................

..........guess who's gonna suffer most from it?

[Brain32]

How long was your dogfight or any continuous fight with actual humans on a server full switch ( the rest wont count too much arcadish that need fatigue settings).. Just by curiosity?
Longest flight was 1h 55min(P47D), but it goes over 1h often enough, as for the dogfight or better said "dogfight" 99% of them in my case lasts well under one minute, when it becomes dirty(after opponent makes 20 +/-5G manouvers :lol: ) I go away, that's just my "flying" style it doesen't matter how many "lives" I have to use :wink:
However that is not the max I see around, yes even in "serious" online events, many people just pull insane amount's of sustained high G loads or repeat even greater G loads during extended period of time.
Also I don't think virtual pilot should be a sitting duck after 1h of normal flight(or even much more), but now you have people that start their fights like RedBull races, 6G turn for opening, then 5G turn for first defensive, then ride the grayout at ~4G for a while, then apply some negative, then pull 5 again, I mean WTF this is not LockOn.
AFAIK average person can endure 5G's before G-LOC, I think this is well modelled in game(IL2) considering that theese are not modern jet fighter pilots in fancy G-suits, however although il2 has effect of continuos G-pulling via somewhat easier G-LOC if you recently G-LOC-ed(really hurts the tongue doesn't it :lol: ) wich was a great feature when il2 came out I think it needs a small upgrade :wink:
Mind you I don't expect wonders from that feature, just a bit extra effects to tone down the rollercoaster effect you can see both online and offline(ok that's about AI but nevertheless...)

[JG27_brook]

Well as long as it can be turned OFF ,just in case its crap :wink: and i can live with out it if it takes too many more years too do :evil:

[zapatista]

Gozr: the extraordinary resistance of our virtual pilot (he can apply 50 lbs continuously for an undefined time and sustain 5 + G also for an undefined time) allows a flight style and tactics (hard evading maneuvers lasting ad infinitum) greatly different from any realistic counterpart (only 2-3 minutes of hard maneuvers before fatigue, since the importance of advantage), something that a simulator should take count of.

exactly right !

the fatigue factor people have been asking for in il2 is not relevant in a normal level flight that might last 1 or 2 hrs, where all you do is climb to altitude, set your trim etc.. and then land after an hr or so when not having seen any action or had dogfights with enemy planes.

but once the hard maneuvering starts, fatigue is a very important factor and all historical accounts indicate this. that is the part that has to be modeled in il2/BoB.

one problem will be how to best represent this in il2/BoB. in real life you would "feel" the fatigue and dont need to look at any gauges. you would also know how much energy you had left for a few more hard maneuvers, or if you wanted to save your energy for a little while and try and recover for a few minutes. it would not be adequate in il2/BoB to just have your pilot become less responsive whithout some visible clue, because it has to simulate the same information that a real pilot had by "feeling" his energy level and fatigue state.

[Vigilant]

Gozr: the extraordinary resistance of our virtual pilot (he can apply 50 lbs continuously for an undefined time and sustain 5 + G also for an undefined time) allows a flight style and tactics (hard evading maneuvers lasting ad infinitum) greatly different from any realistic counterpart (only 2-3 minutes of hard maneuvers before fatigue, since the importance of advantage), something that a simulator should take count of.

exactly right !

the fatigue factor people have been asking for in il2 is not relevant in a normal level flight that might last 1 or 2 hrs, where all you do is climb to altitude, set your trim etc.. and then land after an hr or so when not having seen any action or had dogfights with enemy planes.

but once the hard maneuvering starts, fatigue is a very important factor and all historical accounts indicate this. that is the part that has to be modeled in il2/BoB.

one problem will be how to best represent this in il2/BoB. in real life you would "feel" the fatigue and dont need to look at any gauges. you would also know how much energy you had left for a few more hard maneuvers, or if you wanted to save your energy for a little while and try and recover for a few minutes. it would not be adequate in il2/BoB to just have your pilot become less responsive whithout some visible clue, because it has to simulate the same information that a real pilot had by "feeling" his energy level and fatigue state.
That was really clear zapatista ...what is important here, are visual clues for us to recognise the fatigue. Maybe something like visuals when partially wounded, or slowness of turning head time when checking six etc?

[Pit]

Personally I am rather dubious as to how "fatique" is going to be modeled...

I can tell you from PERSONAL experience of flying REAL combat aircraft (albeit in jets... F-111, F-4G/E, and F-16 )AND in combat, and having the WONDERFUL opportunity to fly several WWII A/C... compliments of the CAF (Confederate Air Force/ Commemorative Air Force)... pilot fatique is VERY different for each person... a pilot in very good physical shape and using proper techniques can sustain high G maneuvers and higher G's longer, and better than somebody that is not as conditioned or experienced in proper techniques... I also can attest that even if you ARE bone tired, that when bogies are sighted... that fatique goes away VERY FAST and is indeed replaced with serious adrenaline!!! BUT... after the engagements are over and you make it back to base... you almost have to be lifted out of the cockpit you are so beat. Especially if it is not the only sortie you flew that day!!! It is not typically, until AFTER you are safe from the engagments that the fatigue sets in... and in MANY cases the shakes!!! :oops:

So how is this going to be modeled properly... ESPECIALLY since they flew several sorties a day??? I am curious but a bit apprehensive as to see how this will be done!!

[6S.Manu]

Longest flight was 1h 55min(P47D), but it goes over 1h often enough, as for the dogfight or better said "dogfight" 99% of them in my case lasts well under one minute, when it becomes dirty(after opponent makes 20 +/-5G manouvers :lol: ) I go away, that's just my "flying" style it doesen't matter how many "lives" I have to use :wink:

I a DF server you are the HUNTER, disengaging at will flying in a faster plane.
In mission, instead the things are different:
Think to a flight of 4 I16 who have to protect a convoy: 4 109 are BnZing you but you can't leave the sector or focus on the fighters, you have to scan the sky for the bombers until they arrive.

Here, in-game, there is only mental fatigue (defending yourself, not losing SA) but the muscle fatigue isn't simulated.. a pair of tight turns (usually did by turn fighters like I16, Yak, La, Zero and Spits to evade form BnZ attacks) should really tire the pilot.

Of course, even 109' pilots but in a faster plane they can always extend.

[DKoor]

I a DF server you are the HUNTER, disengaging at will flying in a faster plane.I tried..............doesn't work with Spitfire on your 6 on short winter map...........I had to stay and fight or be strafed.
Spitfire followed me at full throttle all the way to my home base of course.

[6S.Manu]

I a DF server you are the HUNTER, disengaging at will flying in a faster plane.I tried..............doesn't work with Spitfire on your 6 on short winter map...........I had to stay and fight or be strafed.
Spitfire followed me at full throttle all the way to my home base of course.

Easy kill: fire some shots passing under your mates and you'll see them diving down for the kill.

Trying to chase an Fw190 in a Spit (not 25lbs) is sign of noobness IMO. You are a easy target for DnB (who is the way you have to fly 190s). Infact these noobs don't even check their six... In that case Spits are really a easy kill... Tempests and P51s scare me more.

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

Maybe this feature is AI only? :twisted: :twisted:

[zapatista]

Personally I am rather dubious as to how "fatique" is going to be modeled...

I can tell you from PERSONAL experience of flying REAL combat aircraft (albeit in jets... F-111, F-4G/E, and F-16 )AND in combat, and having the WONDERFUL opportunity to fly several WWII A/C... compliments of the CAF (Confederate Air Force/ Commemorative Air Force)... pilot fatique is VERY different for each person... a pilot in very good physical shape and using proper techniques can sustain high G maneuvers and higher G's longer, and better than somebody that is not as conditioned or experienced in proper techniques... I also can attest that even if you ARE bone tired, that when bogies are sighted... that fatique goes away VERY FAST and is indeed replaced with serious adrenaline!!! BUT... after the engagements are over and you make it back to base... you almost have to be lifted out of the cockpit you are so beat. Especially if it is not the only sortie you flew that day!!! It is not typically, until AFTER you are safe from the engagments that the fatigue sets in... and in MANY cases the shakes!!! :oops:

So how is this going to be modeled properly... ESPECIALLY since they flew several sorties a day??? I am curious but a bit apprehensive as to see how this will be done!!

presuming things you said are true about your personal flight experience in those aircraft (dont mean to be rude, but we had the odd fake guy show up, like the one whom wanted everybody to call him colonel blabla whatever it was), and i hope you are the real deal, then let us consider that....

1) the experience in the modern aircraft you refer to all relates to fly by wire modern jet aircraft that are designed to be control with the light touch of one hand, and have with sticks that are MUCH easier to control than those on an old ww2 prop plane, AND in those modern jets you barely use the rudder pedals in normal flight or combat (rudder is mostly used during landing and takeoff from what i hear).

most "combat" in those jets you mention is with "over the horizon" weapon systems to, so it is not usually in very close with sustained air combat maneuvres in close, like it was in ww2.

so compared to ww2 and the physical exhaustion of having to move and stir a stick which has a lot of resistance with both arms, while stomping on the rudder pedals for hard maneuvering while the enemy is about 200 meters away from you is very different. that experience is very similar to having to continuesly pump weights at the gym with both arms and legs at the same time, and even with sutained adrenaline the fatigue factor rapidly sets in. this is something you can measure with physiological testing, and is very differnet from mental fatigue induced by mental concentration and stress.

2) sustaining G maneuvres is a little different. some people were better at it then others, and the correct training usually mattered, they also used various tricks w scarfs and contracting muscles to delay the blackout and redout effect. but that phenomena has a different threshold, and is induced by slightly different actions (for ex simply the tightness of a turn etc..).


i think there is no need for either of those problems to be modeled differently for axis/allied, or young or old pilots, or tall or short, or trained or untrained, or fit or unfit. that would complicate matters beyond what oleg can do right now.

what we do need however is a way to represent physical fatigue, because some of the behaviour you see online is totally unrealistic (as previous posters in this same thread have illustrated very clearly)

[GOZR]

Pit

Yes 100 % agree.. But here the eternal dilemna is how to make understand this to the simmers that never experienced it only on books and in games... i dunno they seems to know better anyway.. and love to argue.. and i'm the wrong person to explain it well. maybe EcoDragon would explain it a lightway better than me .. he master the art of writing ;) .
But yes each time after flight i had to get back home on my Motorcycle and boy i that was hard..

To understand it's like racing a fast good race on Shifter kart or motorcycle the fatigue will hit you has soon you get off the pit or bike.. real hard..

[GOZR]

The problem i see online many times is a problem of design .. Oleg has to make a better design FM planes and surounding world physics you will see if you can move the FW190 and others ( a pure example ) like an paper weight extra 300.. :)

[Shadow]

Online D/F server: Not a chance. This bunch of yahoos are, for the most part, Airquake fighters that want less not more realism. Check H/L and see how populated the arcade servers are compared to the higher difficulty ones. It's all about the action, stats, and bragging rights. Why muck it up with an attempt to fly realistically.

Online Coops: Good to have as an option as some these pilots tend to play IL2 as a sim and not an arcade shoot 'em up. Still hard to implement realistically as the game resets between missions.

Offline & Online Campaigns: Definitely! Here is where you can improve your ability to sustain higher G's as you gain more stick time. Or become fatigued faster when flying your fourth mission in a row. When the game can track your progress, it's more likely to implement the effects of fatigue in a more realistic way.

[JG27_brook]

The problem i see online many times is a problem of design .. Oleg has to make a better design FM planes and surounding world physics you will see if you can move the FW190 and others ( a pure example ) like an paper weight extra 300.. :) the P47 will be hoot then :shock:

[Brain32]

Oh silly me, it must be my armchair pilot idiocracy and arogance.
:oops: I actually thought that modern jet fighter pilots with years of training including G endurance training and modern anti-G suits, flying modern, FBW equipt aircrafts can withstand larger G-loads for greater periods of time, than farmboys from 1940's in leather jackets flying WW2 propeller planes.
I cincerely apologize for my stupidity :roll:

[GOZR]

yes it is,
Brain do you understand G + and - forces at list ?

Also take a look again of how the guys were dressing up closely.. and the technics they had.

[Brain32]

Yes I understand G-forces positive and negative, and many things about it, I also talked to a lot of real pilots about it, maybe you are right and they are full of it, but what I've heard from them didn't sound like enduring high G forces was a piece of cake and those were modern jet fighter pilots that can not be compared with WW2 pilots, not by equipment and not by training can those guys even be compared.
Now you take modern jet fighter or aerobatic pilots as an example and think, heck if those can endure 9G's or even more, sheesh what's 5-6 for a Spitfire pilot right?
Do you really think that for example me(although I'm in quite good phisical condition) and Pit or EcoDragon will be able to deal with high G' loads in a same manner?

[GOZR]

Brain no one said that G forces are a piece of cake.... ?..?
Everyone is different to G and fatigue and any other things ..

Actually there are limits but very different in the middle.

[Pit]

presuming things you said are true about your personal flight experience in those aircraft (dont mean to be rude, but we had the odd fake guy show up, like the one whom wanted everybody to call him colonel blabla whatever it was), and i hope you are the real deal, then let us consider that....

1) the experience in the modern aircraft you refer to all relates to fly by wire modern jet aircraft that are designed to be control with the light touch of one hand, and have with sticks that are MUCH easier to control than those on an old ww2 prop plane, AND in those modern jets you barely use the rudder pedals in normal flight or combat (rudder is mostly used during landing and takeoff from what i hear).

most "combat" in those jets you mention is with "over the horizon" weapon systems to, so it is not usually in very close with sustained air combat maneuvres in close, like it was in ww2.

so compared to ww2 and the physical exhaustion of having to move and stir a stick which has a lot of resistance with both arms, while stomping on the rudder pedals for hard maneuvering while the enemy is about 200 meters away from you is very different. that experience is very similar to having to continuesly pump weights at the gym with both arms and legs at the same time, and even with sutained adrenaline the fatigue factor rapidly sets in. this is something you can measure with physiological testing, and is very differnet from mental fatigue induced by mental concentration and stress.

2) sustaining G maneuvres is a little different. some people were better at it then others, and the correct training usually mattered, they also used various tricks w scarfs and contracting muscles to delay the blackout and redout effect. but that phenomena has a different threshold, and is induced by slightly different actions (for ex simply the tightness of a turn etc..).


i think there is no need for either of those problems to be modeled differently for axis/allied, or young or old pilots, or tall or short, or trained or untrained, or fit or unfit. that would complicate matters beyond what oleg can do right now.

what we do need however is a way to represent physical fatigue, because some of the behaviour you see online is totally unrealistic (as previous posters in this same thread have illustrated very clearly)

Well first off, no offense taken... and I could care less if folks believe my background or not... no skin off my nose one way or the other!! :lol:
However, I have NO doubt there is the wannabe fake here and there!! :evil: But you will ALWAYS run into that... even in the military itself with "BX hero's".

Anyway Zap... you are NOT correct that all of the A/C I flew were "fly by wire".... ONLY the F-16 was... The F-111 and F-4 were mechanical linkage with hydraulic boosted sytems.... otherwise known as "hydromechanical"... you worked hard in these A/C!! You ARE correct in the fact that the rudder is not extensively used ESPECIALLY in the F-16 until airspeed dropped to around 300 knots... in fact the computer on the F-16 "locked out" the use of the rudder above 350 knots. BUT, the optimum "dogfighting" speed for the F-16 is from 350 to about 400 knots!! :wink: And though They were all MEANT for BVR fighting... how often does that actually happen... it doesn't... current ROE is that we STILL have to VISUALLY identify a target. So we STILL train for the furball!! :wink: You are correct that actual sustained furballs have not happened for a long time... but we STILL train for them... and it is STILL very grueling... EVEN in F-16's!! :) EVEN in extended and sustained furballs... trust me... the fatigue does not set in until AFTER it has ended, no matter how much you are working in the cockpit... you are literally fighting for you life... the adrenaline DEFINATELY staves off the fatigue until the fight is over!!! The BIGGEST problem is blackouts... greyouts... and redouts... adrenaline does NOTHING for those!!! That is where proper G techniques come into play!!! For example... Because of more experience... I may be able to pull 10 G's sustained for 4-5 minutes.... and YOU may be only able to pul 10 G's for maybe just 3 minutes... this provides me a VERY big advantage... :wink: BUT, NOBODY will be able to pull 6+ sustained G's for 20 minutes or more without becoming SERIOUSLY wore out... BUT in reality... high G maneuvers are only going to occur for a couple of minutes at a time before the air speed bleeds off so much you need to do something about it.... and I do not care what type A/C you are in!! :D

[DKoor]

This G thing and overall maneuverability is more realistically pictured in TARGETWARE sim.
Those who played it knows what I'm talking about.....

It's a crude game when you compare it to the IL-2 but...........roxors big time in this regard.

=no bat outworld moves

[Pit]

This G thing and overall maneuverability is more realistically pictured in TARGETWARE sim.
Those who played it knows what I'm talking about.....

It's a crude game when you compare it to the IL-2 but...........roxors big time in this regard.

=no bat outworld moves

Never heard of that one... :shock:

[DKoor]

Never heard of that one... :shock:

http://www.targetware.net/

Check it out..............first register then dl.
It's not a big dl and if you have a reasonable speed you'll fly before you know it.

Fly vs humans there and you'll see what I mean.

[ruxtmp]

BUT, NOBODY will be able to pull 6+ sustained G's for 20 minutes or more without becoming SERIOUSLY wore out


And have a serious case of G measels, requiring an immediate visit to the PX for a carton of Preperation H. :lol:

[Bearcat]

So what happens when everyone creates the uber pilot who has the most stamina and strength? It happens on the footbal sims all the time.... a waste of time IMO.. but hey.. who am I..

[GOZR]

yes Good question bear .. who are you ? ... :D

[zapatista]

... you are NOT correct that all of the A/C I flew were "fly by wire".... ONLY the F-16 was... The F-111 and F-4 were mechanical linkage with hydraulic boosted sytems.... otherwise known as "hydromechanical"... you worked hard in these A/C!!

You ARE correct in the fact that the rudder is not extensively used ESPECIALLY in the F-16 until airspeed dropped to around 300 knots... in fact the computer on the F-16 "locked out" the use of the rudder above 350 knots. BUT, the optimum "dogfighting" speed for the F-16 is from 350 to about 400 knots!! :wink: And though They were all MEANT for BVR fighting... how often does that actually happen... it doesn't... current ROE is that we STILL have to VISUALLY identify a target. So we STILL train for the furball!! :wink:

You are correct that actual sustained furballs have not happened for a long time... but we STILL train for them... and it is STILL very grueling... EVEN in F-16's!! :) EVEN in extended and sustained furballs... trust me...

the fatigue does not set in until AFTER it has ended, no matter how much you are working in the cockpit... you are literally fighting for you life... the adrenaline DEFINATELY staves off the fatigue until the fight is over!!! The BIGGEST problem is blackouts... greyouts... and redouts... adrenaline does NOTHING for those!!!

... BUT in reality... high G maneuvers are only going to occur for a couple of minutes at a time before the air speed bleeds off so much you need to do something about it.... and I do not care what type A/C you are in!! :D

lets forget about redouts and blackouts for the moment, because the thread is mainly about modeling fatigue correctly, and that is difficult enough as it is :)

even if only the f16 was a true fly by wire aircraft, the hydraulically boosted system in the other 2 aircraft you flew in is still SIGNIFICANTLY better and lighter to use than the controls in most single seater fighter aircraft of ww2, and those of the early war BoB period.

there must be figures to quantify this, and give us a number for stick resistance in full deflection for various directions (at various speeds), and the same for full rudder deflection. i suspect the forces involved are somewhere around 4x higher than those in the modern hydraulically boosted systems you experienced.

and ...

i suspect that when you talk about training for a "sustained furball" in those more modern aircraft, the actual total amount of time you might have been stomping hard on the rudder for full deflection AND stirring the stick to various directions at full deflection, might have been about 10 minutes out of a 2 hr flight. add to that another 10 min of less strenuous maneuvres, and that would have been the sortie ?

the problem we have in il2 is at the other extreme of the argument. the way it is at the moment you can take a ww2 single seater and do wild maneuvers continuesly for the full duration that your fuel last (eg up to 2 hrs). in the bigger online servers you can see this going on most days, and it is very unrealistic. a person might have been continuesly hard maneuvering in a big furrball, and then get chased home for another 15 min with 2 enemies on his tail while he is constantly making wild erratic maneuvers to prevent getting shot down.

that is simply impossible for a human to sustain. on some other il2 forums this exact question was asked to several ww2 pilots who actually flew those planes, and they commented that if they saw that kind of erratic and wild defensive movement they would simply backoff and wait a few minutes for the other person to become exhausted, and then move in for an easy kill. in real life you simply couldnt fly like that more than a few minutes.

i work in medical physiology and i can assure you adrenaline is no wonder chemical that can justify that superman strength for such prolonged periods of time that we see right now in il2. when the japs did the death marches in asia (like burma), or the nazi's worked millions of slave labourers to their death, adrenaline didnt save those people either.

with the death marches in asia (or those done by the russians with their german prisoners after Stalingrad for ex) a fully fit man could be pushed to total exhaustion in a few days on those forced marches, and "all they had to do" was simply keep on walking ! even with a jap soldier standing over him with a bayonet to finish him of like a dog as he lay in the mud next to the road, he didnt find a sudden burst of adrenaline to keep on walking.

that might sound like an extreme example, but i see the same in the performance testing of athletes. you can have a fit and well trained athlete that you expose to a continues series of exercises at high resistance, and his performance will significantly drop after a relatively short period of time. he simply cant put out the same high workload forever. and even if you would put a growling tiger next to him to motivate him, that would only give him a brief lift in performance for a short period, and then the exhaustion would return and his performance drops massively.

i dont doubt the experience you describe is real for modern times, but you didnt continuesly work stick and rudder at full strenght for the full duration of the sortie, and the resistances you worked with are probably 25 or 30% of what they had to deal with in ww2. adrenaline can stave off mental exhaustion for many hours, but does not eliminate physical fatigue during sustained high workloads.

[GOZR]

Lets see how this can be done..\
Arcade the fatigue should be ON when the engine management and surfaces are on automatic..

When on Full real with full management well how would you consider the fatigue to be..? more or less strong to be set ? and ofcourse flying one full gas tank on those conditions + natural fatigue of the simmer + airframe stress + fatigue to watch your gauges ALL in 6DOF going forward and back looking in all directions that cause more fatigue for teh Simemr as well and watch out for enemy blabla etc..

Right now in IL2 you can run the plane like a car with absolutely no care beside well radiator..
So if the guys turn and turn at 50 G's for an hour i hope that will be on arcade mode and not on serious mode.

Well Time of fatigue is important fatigue for an hour or fatigue for Days, months years on a prisoner camp with no food and no close.. are very different very!!!! but this can vary so much..

So all this can be answer by how Oleg's team will design their sim's physics of the virtual world and all it's components and planes etc.., .. more real or more game.. that is the definitive question..

[Pit]

Well Zap...
We can debat the physiology of it till the cows come home... all I can do is state what MY experience was like... :lol:

And as I said... I am quite curious as to how it will be implementented in the sim. :wink:

[zapatista]

We can debat the physiology of it till the cows come home... all I can do is state what MY experience was like... :lol:

And as I said... I am quite curious as to how it will be implementented in the sim. :wink:

i think your opinion on this topic carries a lot of weight because of your experience, i just stated why i think the fatigue experienced by ww2 pilots might have been significantly higher because of the more physical workload they were exposed to.

from what oleg has already said, pilot fatigue will be included in BoB, but he gave no indication how it will be modeled, or how the virtual pilot can keep track of the level of fatigue being experienced.

i would favor some visual on screen indication, because we need to represent a physical sensation that a pilot feels, and he is continuesly aware of his own energy levels without having to look for a gauge or suddenly find his arms/legs go weak and he cant control the aircraft anymore. the fake-real crowd wont like this however, because they will compare it to a energy-bar seen in some 1e person shooter games. i am not sure how else this information could be continuesly made available at a glance, since you'd want to keep track of it during a dogfight that lasts longer than a few minutes.

once this variable is included in the game, people will learn how to fly smarter, instead of just going wild with eratic movements and pretend they are flying a Tie fighter with a uber-robot at the controls.

you could even represent the adrenaline effect by having a brief % boost in energy level when the plane gets hit by enemy fire, or a new engagement start. similarly, if a person doesnt trim his plane correctly on egress/ingress and flies like that for 20 min or so, it should erode his energy levels, similar to increased fatigue that would happen in real life when flying an untrimmed aircraft.

[SG1_Gunkan]

"I noticed, that you were doing high Gs for 6 minutes now, and in real life it was no more than 3 Gs for most turns, and in 2 minutes you were not able to see what gauges showed!”

Viktor Alexeevich Tikhomirov

[RegRag1977]

"I noticed, that you were doing high Gs for 6 minutes now, and in real life it was no more than 3 Gs for most turns, and in 2 minutes you were not able to see what gauges showed!”

Viktor Alexeevich Tikhomirov

Really?

More info, more info, please!

[Talisman]

This fatigue issue sounds very interesting from an immersion and realism pespective. If it is introduced, I hope we get the option to turn if off though.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[DKoor]

"I noticed, that you were doing high Gs for 6 minutes now, and in real life it was no more than 3 Gs for most turns, and in 2 minutes you were not able to see what gauges showed!”

Viktor Alexeevich Tikhomirov

Really?

More info, more info, please!

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/7521013214?r=7521013214#7521013214

Google UBi for FPSOLKOR's posts..........he frequently posts VVS vets memories.....and I can clearly remember him saying what is quoted above.
Here is his compilation;

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3431087335

[Pit]

"I noticed, that you were doing high Gs for 6 minutes now, and in real life it was no more than 3 Gs for most turns, and in 2 minutes you were not able to see what gauges showed!”

Viktor Alexeevich Tikhomirov

I can certainly believe that easy enough!!! Today's G suits allow us to pull more G's for a greater amount of time... plus the A/C today are BUILT to pull sustained high G's... PLUS they did not train to offset GLOC by using techniques...

[Zoom2136]

Personally I am rather dubious as to how "fatique" is going to be modeled...

I can tell you from PERSONAL experience of flying REAL combat aircraft (albeit in jets... F-111, F-4G/E, and F-16 )AND in combat, and having the WONDERFUL opportunity to fly several WWII A/C... compliments of the CAF (Confederate Air Force/ Commemorative Air Force)... pilot fatique is VERY different for each person... a pilot in very good physical shape and using proper techniques can sustain high G maneuvers and higher G's longer, and better than somebody that is not as conditioned or experienced in proper techniques... I also can attest that even if you ARE bone tired, that when bogies are sighted... that fatique goes away VERY FAST and is indeed replaced with serious adrenaline!!! BUT... after the engagements are over and you make it back to base... you almost have to be lifted out of the cockpit you are so beat. Especially if it is not the only sortie you flew that day!!! It is not typically, until AFTER you are safe from the engagments that the fatigue sets in... and in MANY cases the shakes!!! :oops:

So how is this going to be modeled properly... ESPECIALLY since they flew several sorties a day??? I am curious but a bit apprehensive as to see how this will be done!!


EDIT - Well guess it was already covered....

Quite right but you flew in combat planes with hydraulically assisted control surfaces... not WWII fighters where you had to arm wrestle the thing... So your fatigue comes from pulling G's and not pulling G's and fighting heavy resistance.... Which amounts to lifting weights as you're pulling high G's... not the same workloads...

I'm a ex CAF officer myself... not a pilot though and the effect of adrenaline is infact quite real... but one must not set aside the effect of physical fatigue... this is when even when you push yourself your body says HELL NO.... this is when you have reached your breaking point....

This limit is different for everybody and it will be interesting to see how it is implemented....



Regards,

[Ogdens]

This is all relevent of course if the AI is subject to the same restrictions...

[JG4_Helofly]

It's great to hear that pilot fatigue will be in bob. That was the missing feature IMO. No fatigue model in IL2 is like a race sim without tyre wearout.

It will not only make the sim far more realistic in the way people will fight, but will also be good for the popularity of "crap planes". At the moment even slight differences in performance make you win or loose against an even enemy. With the fatigue model it's not longer only the plane but also the pilot. So if you don't fly your plane like a tie fighter you might be able to easily kill a supperior enemy aircraft. This is exellent for rising the motivation in realistic dogfights or coop missions for the side with a bit worse aircraft, like 109G6 vs La5 F or P40 vs Zero.
At least that's what I hope

[II./JG1_Krupinski]

Stupid questions: how many times did you disengage a fight in IL2 or is it only a 190 jock option.

It's an option of the faster plane, they get to force the other plane to engage and get to be able to disengage whenever the heat gets too much.

Its one of the many things I like about the 190s, but they can't disengage from everyone.

-Raven

[Bearcat]

Personally I am rather dubious as to how "fatique" is going to be modeled...

I can tell you from PERSONAL experience of flying REAL combat aircraft (albeit in jets... F-111, F-4G/E, and F-16 )AND in combat, and having the WONDERFUL opportunity to fly several WWII A/C... compliments of the CAF (Confederate Air Force/ Commemorative Air Force)... pilot fatigue is VERY different for each person... a pilot in very good physical shape and using proper techniques can sustain high G maneuvers and higher G's longer, and better than somebody that is not as conditioned or experienced in proper techniques... I also can attest that even if you ARE bone tired, that when bogies are sighted... that fatique goes away VERY FAST and is indeed replaced with serious adrenaline!!! BUT... after the engagements are over and you make it back to base... you almost have to be lifted out of the cockpit you are so beat. Especially if it is not the only sortie you flew that day!!! It is not typically, until AFTER you are safe from the engagments that the fatigue sets in... and in MANY cases the shakes!!! :oops:

So how is this going to be modeled properly... ESPECIALLY since they flew several sorties a day??? I am curious but a bit apprehensive as to see how this will be done!!

Exactly.. and thats why I say it would be hard to model.. because of how it was. Some pilots used to work out constantly... while others partied hard... some guys were small and wiry while others were big and strong as an ox... How do you model that in a way that is .. realistic? You will wind up with everyone being in tip top shape... and the "fatigue' level will be equal across the board eventually... How many of you guys would set your fatigue levels at average? The AI you might mix up... but you? You will be what you will be..... and you cant tell me that anyone in here would shortchange themselves for "realism's sake... knowing that there is a pretty good chance that the other guy either is at max or near it... It is a waste of time IMO in anything but the AI... and that would be interesting because it would give you another level of AI variables to program. When I make a mission I usually mix up the AI... most are average.. or a mix of average and veteran with the rookie and occasional ace tossed in there... to me it makes for a more interesting mission than setting then all to Ace or rookie or whatever.. and fatigue would be another variable to use in AI programming.

[Triad773]

I know that Pappy Boynton was a great example of this- defying the g- ratings of the Corsair and P-40 by out-toughing his opponent. He weight lifted, and grunted healvilly while out-manuevering opponents 8)

[DKoor]

Every aircraft unit from specific series ever made was absolutely identical.
And further on.........their performance remained the same after they were used too.

It's a fakt.

[Zoom2136]

You guys think to much.... Oleg just has to model ---1 pilot--- and every one has to manage the energy of the said pilot...

Nice to see the usual ... I work out so my pilot model is going to be p.o.r.ke.d. or he does not work out... so his pilot model is nerfed... LOL

Like it was said before... just have 1 pilot model and every body has to live with the same model... have that model influence by G's, stick force, rudder use, duration of the effort etc.... kind of what we have for the black out and red out...

So in other words.... EVERY ONE ON THE SAME LEVEL PLAYING FIELD...

[Blood_Splat]

My pilot is out of shape mimicking 90% of flight simmers. :P

[JG4_Helofly]

True. We need one standart pilot for everybody.

@ people who are against pilot fatigue. How do you want to have realistic fights if the pilots don't get tired during the fight? It was a major problem in RL and also explains why on gun cam films you often see aircrafts which are not turning with maximum G. Same question: Would you like to play a race sim in which your tyres are brand new with max grip during an endurence race? Or a realistic fps in which the player can sprint and bunny jump forever? Would be pretty unrealistic if you ask me.

And for people who fear the oversimplification of a complex problem. Yes it is complex and must be simplified, but other things too. What about the pilot black and red out? Some pilots may have higher blood pressure and resist better and longer to g force. Or Pilot injuries like we have now in il2. Or the flight and especialy the damage model are very much simplified.
If you fear simplification then stop playing pc games.

I can't see a futur for flight sims without this fatigue feature. If we want to have more realistic fights then we need it. There is no way around. And look at "Knights of the sky"; it will also have pilot fatigue included.

[Pit]

... @ people who are against pilot fatigue. How do you want to have realistic fights if the pilots don't get tired during the fight? It was a major problem in RL and also explains why on gun cam films you often see aircrafts which are not turning with maximum G. Same question: Would you like to play a race sim in which your tyres are brand new with max grip during an endurence race? Or a realistic fps in which the player can sprint and bunny jump forever? Would be pretty unrealistic if you ask me.

And for people who fear the oversimplification of a complex problem. Yes it is complex and must be simplified, but other things too. What about the pilot black and red out? Some pilots may have higher blood pressure and resist better and longer to g force. Or Pilot injuries like we have now in il2. Or the flight and especialy the damage model are very much simplified.

No need to attack anybody or group of folks... :cry:

...
If you fear simplification then stop playing pc games.


YES SIR!!! EXCUSE ME SIR!!! EXCUSE MY INPUT SIR!!! :roll:

That's what these forums are for... to debate and express ideas!! :wink:

[GOZR]

Pit there is no more sens to explain something from Experiences some simmers know more than the real pilots.

At list we have a good laugh at it.. All Fun..

We will have just to wait and see and hoping that this setting will be an adjustable parameter and server inforced at will.

[BlitzPig_DDT]

Just our of curiosity, people who are AGAINST pilot fatigue being modled, what aircraft types and flying style do you prefer? (likewise, those who are FOR it being modeled, what types and styles do YOU prefer?)

[Zoom2136]

Just our of curiosity, people who are AGAINST pilot fatigue being modled, what aircraft types and flying style do you prefer? (likewise, those who are FOR it being modeled, what types and styles do YOU prefer?)

Hey I fly only Spitfires... and I'm all for it....

BTW as my great uncle did (John Proctor RAF#602 KIA 1941).... and my grandmother (Annie Proctor RIP 1999) (as a ferry pilot)...

[proton45]

they should model 3 pilots fatigue levels rookie/average/pro. Off-line you would have more options for building missions (and campaign's)...on-line it could be a "server choice", one model for all or everyone starts at "rookie" and works themselfs up to "pro" with experience...If you are shot down and live maybe your "virility" goes up, if you die you start over. A rookie could live longer by flying smart and as he gains experience he has a little more stamina too...

Needless to say it would be a big improvement (the biggest) if fatigue rules applied to AI...

[JG4_Helofly]

@ Pit, You got me wrong. Off course everyone can have his opinion and my post was supposed to show my opinion about the contra arguments from people who don't want pilot fatigue. Maybe I should put some smilies in my posts for better understanding. It was not supposed to be an agressiv post against a group of people.

And the sentence "...stop playing games..." was supposed to show that if you think something should not be modeled because it's too simplified you must also think about FM, DM, ... . So with this logic you can not play a game because all features are simplified.

I hope it's clear now :wink:

[GOZR]

Think about that what about planes with Boosted surface controls.. ? hum..

[BlitzPig_DDT]

Gozr, what do you prefer to fly, and how do you prefer to fly it?

[JG4_Greif]

I for myself don`t think that it is good to implement such thing as fatigue. If you simulate that, you then also have to simulate adrenalin, like GOZR said. Last weekend I and a few other guys from JG4 and JG5 had the chance to talk to Schäufele and Schuck. And on the question about fatigue Schuck only answered that you were in such an rush of adrenalin, you couldn`t be tired. Then how do you want to simulate that? Each person is different, the next thing that will be then afterwards is the discussion, that the Spit pilot can resist more then the 109 pilot and so on. Don`t forgett thous pilots were flying for their lives, if you fail you are dead (adrenalin in such situation).

@ BlitzPig I like to fly nearly all planes except the Spit. And I enter a turnfight whenever I get the chance, of course if there is a possability to win :wink:
I would never enter a turnfight with a 109E vs Rata

[Pit]

Just our of curiosity, people who are AGAINST pilot fatigue being modled, what aircraft types and flying style do you prefer? (likewise, those who are FOR it being modeled, what types and styles do YOU prefer?)

I'm certainly not against it by no means... just quite curious how it can be implemented fairly... I'm an engineer by education (and not for computer or software)... not a programmer. :lol: I truly have NO clue as to style or type I prefer... especially since I have no idea as to what would be available or a viable options. :wink: But I would certainly like to see other areas much more improved upon over implementing something such as fatigue.... though I think it is a very interesting concept!! :)

[proton45]

If you simulate that, you then also have to simulate adrenalin, like GOZR said

why? I don't think you "have to" simulate adrenalin...The idea is to model the effect of fatigue due to pulling "high G's". I think that everyone would agree that in "RL" if a pilot was performing high G maneuver, after high G maneuver (while being chased) that after a while he would get tired (and weaker). This could be simulated (in game) by reducing the "play" (movement) of the joystick's effective range. This would manifest itself in "game play" as the pilot being "weaker" and not being able to "pull" the joystick as hard (and fast).

The idea (IMO) is to model the basic dynamics of "real" combat so that we have a "simulation" of the experience...


:) :) :)

[76.IAP Männis]

Yes but Adrenalin would block out, pain and boost your sences and your strength for a while. You could simulate adrenalin by taking the fatigue longer till it kicks in. But I personaly don't think simulating fatigue is a good idea anyway...
It would lead to a point where good old fashioned curve fighting would totaly be abandoned and everybody would be flying z&b. If you only have one sort of Pilot that is, Hartmann wrote that you allways could see the curve fighting pilots "Kurvenkaempfer", becouse of there bizeps. Just like you could pic out Liberator Pilots from B17 Pilots, becouse there muscels where bigger! Hartmann for instance wasn't what one would call a strong man, and therefor tried to avoid being tangled up in a curvefight. James Edgar Johnson for example was a pretty strong guy, and fought in a totaly different way.

[SG1_Gunkan]

Adrelanile simulation? Well, i think i do release adrenaline while playing... fell fear with yak's on my tail, mi heart beats acelerates in dogfight... :lol:

Concentrate in simulating the pilot fatigue. Stop pilots making +6 -6G's for ten minutes without not even a problem. 4G's is already a painful punch on the stomach.

Only professional acrobatic pilots can take +9G -9G's and only for seconds... I like watching the acrobatic sports on EuroSport and they talk a lot about pilot fatige and G's.

[ElAurens]

It's all for naught if the AI can still fly their aircraft to just below the structural breaking point withount any ill effects, like they do now.

The AI are the key to this whole discussion.

[BlitzPig_DDT]

This thread seems to have died, and many ignored my question, so I decided to take the time and re-scan the thread and take a head count.

Looking at definite stances, either for or against, I also marked down what their flying techniques were, either from comments here, or if I know them from other places.

The results are interesting -

Of the 14 counted, 10 are FOR pilot fatigue, 4 are AGAINST it.

People love "democracy" so much, so if we go by that, it looks like we should get it. ;)

But the most interesting, and indeed telling, picture, is that ALL 4 of the people who are AGAINST pilot fatigue are turn fighters.

8 of the 10 people who are FOR pilot fatigue are E-Fighters.

1 of the 10 people FOR it gave no indication of plane, side, or style preference at all so not even a guess could be made.

And only 1 single person who was FOR pilot fatigue was a turn fighter by preference.


In fact, those results are summed up rather well by 76.IAP Männis -
"It would lead to a point where good old fashioned curve fighting would totaly be abandoned and everybody would be flying z&b."

Which is funny, because that's exactly what happened in real life, and it actually started around 1917 (the seeds were planted then at least).


Something else I noted, but couldn't turn into numbers, is that people arguing FOR it were making more well thought out points, backed up with examples and reason, while people who were AGAINST it were generally pouting and raving. The best counter argument offered was that it would be a can of worms to do as people are so different, and how would it be done and what sorts of arguments would it touch off. However, that point was itself countered and nullified by 3 things -
1) That's not enough reason to not simulate something in a simulator
2) Picking a new to lightly experienced pilot would be most accurate given that (as stated) 99.999999% of everyone here has been virutally killed more times than they can count so most would be new to lightly experienced
3) 1 single pilot, much like that above, is already modeled and it's not really a problem


It would seem that the only reasonable thing for a simulator to do would be to simulate the effects on a pilot from prolonged G exposure in a single mission, altitude, and wounds (as BP_Jagger pointed out).

[310thDiablo]

they should model 3 pilots fatigue levels rookie/average/pro. Off-line you would have more options for building missions (and campaign's)...on-line it could be a "server choice", one model for all or everyone starts at "rookie" and works themselfs up to "pro" with experience...If you are shot down and live maybe your "virility" goes up, if you die you start over. A rookie could live longer by flying smart and as he gains experience he has a little more stamina too...

Needless to say it would be a big improvement (the biggest) if fatigue rules applied to AI...

Taht would definately make you wanna stay alive longer.

[JG4_Helofly]

Nice statistics Blitz. It's not surprising that people who are used to turnfight don't like the pilot fatigue system. And it's not suprising that boom and zoom pilots are pro pilot fatigue.

But independently of your fighting style you should ask yourself what is more realistic. Extrem 6 G fighting for hours or a (off course simplified) fatigue model which is the same for all players and which does not allow such x-fighter dogfights.
Now, the only limit we have is the plane, but in RL the pilot fitness was even a bigger restriction. And that's also the reason why people are whining about a speed difference of 5 km/h or a climb rate difference of 1m/s in IL2. The perfromance is much more important than it should be. In RL the pilot was not able to fly to the limits during more than a few minutes and therefore things like higher position over the enemy were much more important.
More than once, I read german pilot accounts saying that some hurricanes dived to escape. In this game you will never see this happen.
But you will see many dogfights at low level in which spits and other turnfighters are pulling always maximum G to follow the enemy or simply to be safe against enemys who can't turn that tight. If you fly with b&z planes you have to learn deflection shooting because that's the only way to hit the turing enemy.

And once again: Don't fear simplification, all key features ( DM, FM,... ) are greatly simplified.

EDIT: IMO of course ;)

[ElAurens]

I'm a turnfighter by nature, but an energy fighter by necessity, I don't fear the inclusion of fatigue, as such. It is the implementation that is the sticking point.

And I think it will be a wash when the game is finally released.

There will be no overwhelming advantage for either side. Just problems that will need to be overcome for both.

[Pit]

Very Very interesting observation DDT... 8)

But... I am curious....
Which catagories do you believe I fall into???

Am I for or against fatigue being modeled?? Actually, I don't believe I stated a preference... :lol:

Am I a turn Fighter or an energy fighter??? And what IS my flying tecnique??? Actually I excel at mud moving... :wink:

And were my points well thought out or not... or backed up...??? :shock:

I AM curious!!! 8) :D :wink:

[proton45]

I would be curious to hear what people think of the way "black-out's/red-out's" are modeled in game?

We already have one "black-out" model for all pilots, while in RL all pilots had different "black-out" tolerances. Some where tall other where short, in shape, out of shape, tired, well rested, ect...

It's kind of interesting to me...almost all combat/sims have some kind of health/fatigue meter...and in all cases it's an "over simplified" model (we have had it scene the dawn of computer combat) and yet people here seem so resistant to the idea of modeling the "human limit" factor of air combat.

To answer the question of what type of airplanes I like to fly...Two of my favorites are the KI-43 and the P-40 (gleam what you will from that). :) :) :)

[hoarmurath]

Let me check....

It remind me of something.

Some kind of suggestion i made on french forum long ago, and that finally gave birth to a pdf summing up the proposal.

http://niflheim.endofinternet.net/files/fatigue_for_bob.pdf

No idea if oleg was interested in it.