Things like this is suffering for this great game.

[roptor90]

King-Tiger ( slope in degrees from the vertical )
Front Upper Hull ( Glacis ): 150 mm @ 50°
Lower Hull Front: 100 mm @ 50°

JagdTiger ( slope in degrees from the vertical )
Front Superstructure: 250 mm @ 15°
Front Upper Hull: 150mm @ 50°
Front Lower Hull: 100mm @ 50°

"Quasi Same" chassis pictures:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214579894685/17E0865B8901F236D925F798D2A2F7B0FA0DBE10/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214579952744/118A3F7527E8486CDBF5214C8F429A457C20A14B/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214579968916/1CEA3715D9EDAB0F940307BBE11555CAF5C0F71B/

Here is the another comparision

Panther G ( slope in degrees from the vertical )
Front Lower Hull: 60 mm @ 55°
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214580037468/7D53403610CA77FFEF5F94B3D8103DA4CD339FCF/


Swift practice...

For an example, these 3 tanks (Super Pershing, IS3 and Black Prince engage the King-Tiger of course with good old stereotype tactic: detrack, with some luck gun disposal and very risky final maneuver - flanking it with others (cheaper T-34/85, Sherman) in left upper corner...

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458981014/98505E19DA82D323E8E86D33ABFEB4728DC4F870/

Nothing special here, BUT !

Exactly the same 3 tanks (Super Pershing, IS3 and Black Prince)
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458964786/32EAFDD757B23C7A506AAEF5FA4831E934C01A73/

Already are in range of which can penetrate/damage/destroy the 100mm lower hull plate on both JagdTiger and King-Tiger tanks with single APCR shot, and in this case there is no reason why risk their further unnecessarily casualties with those flanking tanks...

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458615216/9631560E1D939636C9043651770C85718AAA30CB/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458610557/185E0FBBF1E107396383F4B894ACC2C54D2574C7/

( Its very hard to find that spot on that Tiger II but its pointless, because you can not penetrate it, even at these ranges with JagdTiger and feedback )

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214604462225/E6C25486E78ED1957921A47DF172D94826E6080D/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214604485764/BB1D760283B237194C42075F8F90325F86804B46/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934214604474779/EF1CA74F988572C66C340FD2E7E0617156772D83/

( Friendly fire is turned on )


But lets go back to our example...

Now, after Tiger II was detracked, its time to flank it...

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458986949/A2F9F49CD304608262E27A8D5951E0E4075BCDBC/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459004122/ECB95828C1E812088424BB645B9CF6EE02672259/

Boom and done !! Closed deal with one single King-Tiger...

Meanwhile...

But damn ! Where from did came that Panther here ?

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459015086/FEAF69159BD4FA790385E2894E055414E94605BF/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458998272/EC129424192C8C22750B3FE9A03B999C571E6A3F/

Or this Panzer 4 ?

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459009426/8401A2A3DF950ABF775EFE11DD645CE131D3FD41/

Or this Hetzer ???

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459037273/0410BC2FB7B34A4C73D1C7440165C08D93621283/

The ambush tanks can not engage 3 tanks (Super Pershing, IS3 and Black Prince) because they are too far

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459031693/8344DE1653191FA5118F0643C800728BFF7AD2D9/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757459026288/C0FE103F4043FAD1DE0BD133B03A66583D35F6B8/

But they destroyed the flanking tanks, just like that for free.
And the score is very bad for allied.


Do not compare reality with this game please, because it does not give any sence.
But on other side, it could help this game by lowering some insane prices...

(Sources)
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-v-panther-sd-kfz-171.htm
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/jagdpanzer-vi-jagdtiger-ausf-b-sd-kfz-186.htm

[djsatane]

Dont forget ther eis patch coming in a week, preview and changelog:

http://www.digitalmindsoft.eu/forums/viewtopic.php?f=148&t=9326#p109048

[Bellator]

What the OP doesn't realize here is that the maximum range and penetration power of the guns ingame and in real life aren't comparable.

For example, the max range of the AT & tank guns ingame is 180 (I'm assuming meters?), but the penetration of the guns at this range are not the same as in real life. In MoW the guns lose their penetration power faster than in real life, and this to simulate longer range engagements.

To try and suggest that the Super Pershing, and even worse, the IS-3, should be able to penetrate the KT's lower front hull at the ingame range of 136m is absurd when you consider that an ingame range of 136 translates to roughly 1800 meters in real life: a range at which the Super Pershing's gun couldn't ever hope to penetrate the lower front hull, and the IS-3's gun wouldn't even be capable at 200 meters, let alone 1800!

Now if the OP wants higher realism, then I suggest increasing the 88mm PaK43's ingame penetration performance at 180m from 92mm to 110mm, seeing as the gun in reality was capable of defeating the 152mm front of a heavy Churchill tank all the way past 3000 meters with its' std. AP round.

Just some food for thought...

[Bellator]

Its hard to answer on your arguments mate. If i was able to find any logic in it...

But i try...

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596934757458610557/185E0FBBF1E107396383F4B894ACC2C54D2574C7/

Where from did you get 136 meters ?

98 meters then, the first picture u showed the KT was 136 meters away... big difference :rolleyes:

98 meters ingame would correspond to around 1300 meters in RL, which is still WAAAY outside the range that the 90mm T15E3 gun would be able to penetrate the frontal lower hull of the KT, with APCR or not.

You also mentioned the 122mm D25T of the IS2 & -3, which was absolutely horrible in the AT role, with a terribly slow RoF and a penetration performance no better than the Panther's 75mm KwK42 when fired against the same quality armor. So why you'd expect this gun to do more than just dent the frontal armour of the KT I have no clue.... oh wait, maybe some obscure Soviet test where they hammered a KT with hundreds of shells of all calibers until the thing litterally fell apart :rolleyes:

Overall info about Super Pershing.

Note length of barrel, 73 calibres to compete with the 88 mm KwK 43 L/71 calibres gun of the Tiger II.

And what am I supposed to use that info for? The length of the barrel is but one part of the equation, what about the size of the propellant charge and quality of the projectile? Seems you're a beginner in this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Super_pershing.jpg

In an effort to match the firepower of the Tiger II's more powerful 88 KwK43, the T15E1 90 gun was developed and mounted in a T26E1 in January 1945. This tank was designated T26E1-1. The T15E1 gun was 73 calibers in length and had a much longer high capacity chamber. This gave it a muzzle velocity of 3,750 ft/s (1,140 m/s) with the T30E16 APCR shot and could penetrate the Panther's frontal armor at up to 2,600 yd (2,400 m) ( Panther had frontal hull armor 60-80mm under 55 degrees vertical and 110mm turret ) . This model used a single piece 50 in (1,300 mm) long ammunition.

So i don`t see any doubts about its power mate.

And yet the 88mm KwK43 still outperformed the T15E3 with std. APCBC shot at all ranges, and APCBC has a much longer effective range than APCR, hence why APCR range is lower ingame.

PS: Unless references are provided, I wouldn't trust wikipedia on anything.

[Bellator]

Sorry, but I am infact talking about the LOWER front hull of 100mm thickness sloped at 50 degrees from the vertical. So my point still stands.

[GrimReaper]

"136 meters ingame is roughly 1800 meters in real life" ?

Where did you read it ? Can you give us the source of this info please ?

[Bellator]

So what`s your problem then ? Type normal arguments please and not in "IQ85" style like:

Judging from your manner of constructing a case I wouldn't be talking about IQ's if I were you.

Point is that the 90mm T15E3 would not penetrate the KT's lower front hull at anything but REALLY close range, and the 122mm D25T was completely unable to penetrate it at any range.

[Bellator]

"136 meters ingame is roughly 1800 meters in real life" ?

Where did you read it ? Can you give us the source of this info please ?

Sure, look at the penetration figures... it's a simple matter of matching them up against the real ones, then you get an approximate range.

[Bellator]

Define "Really close range" please.

Well considering the poor performance of APCR versus sloped armour, it would probably be at around 300 meters. So it would be much better to shoot at the front turret then, considering the excellent performance of APCR versus non angled armour.

"122mm D25T was completely unable to penetrate it at any range" Yes ? It sounds like Tiger II was invulnerable to me...

From the front to the 122mm D25T, yes it was invulnerable. Unless ofcourse you shoot at it 200 times until the whole thing comes apart as at Kubinka.

[roptor90]

Ok Bellator your right, its those ~350 meters after i did a lot of research at this pages:

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/90-mm-ammunition/index.html
http://www.panzerworld.net/armourcalculator

I was really confused by wikipedia ( possibly propaganda or fake info with those "2400" meters :? )

But in all cases, you can not penetrate that lower hull at all, because its bugged as wiki site...

BTW this game needs a really big patch about armor/armor penetration corrections though.

But in extream battle conditions where the slope angle was negated with ground/terain inequality it could be far more meters not just 350m... That slope did great work on that final armor value as well...

There are many factors which gives no sence at all...


Like this for example:

Panther`s 80mm upper hull plate @ 55 degrees vertical can be penetrated from 800 yards...
60mm!!! lower hull plate @55 degrees vertical only from 600 yards WTF ???

[roptor90]

Same chassis, same story different look...

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594686117203657822/5F7DDB439B814EE6E63AA082281A420D26E463B1/

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594686117203654315/E157983848C164EE8BD3B64CBE4E4A8605090B4A/

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerjager-v-jagdpanther-sd-kfz-173.htm#jagdpanther

[roptor90]

3AD's "Super Pershing" vs. Germany's "King Tiger"
WWII's two most powerful tanks meet in a historic encounter...

http://www.3ad.com/history/news/super.pershing.1.htm

[kane1]

3AD's "Super Pershing" vs. Germany's "King Tiger"
WWII's two most powerful tanks meet in a historic encounter...

http://www.3ad.com/history/news/super.pershing.1.htm

That was cool! Thanks.