6dof petition

[andrea]

We all know the problems that might be if the entire IL2's code will be hacked, but we know also that able people have made possible 6dof in IL2 and too many people uses trackir in our simulator.

Nowadays 2Dof is a real handicap for a simulator!

What I ask for now, is the insertion through patch of the 6dof function in IL2, this for ensure that none other functions of the simulator will be changed and at the same time to let the thousands of users to use completely the trackir device.

If we will be in so many people, perhaps 1c maddox will be able to satisfy us
So if u are interested ...Put your name!

Andrea Parchouli

[Shadow]

We all know the problems that might be if the entire IL2's code will be hacked, but we know also that able people have made possible 6dof in IL2 and too many people uses trackir in our simulator.

Nowadays 2Dof is a real handicap for a simulator!

What I ask for now, is the insertion through patch of the 6dof function in IL2, this for ensure that none other functions of the simulator will be changed and at the same time to let the thousands of users to use completely the trackir device.

If we will be in so many people, perhaps 1c maddox will be able to satisfy us
So if u are interested ...Put your name!

Andrea Parchouli

Sure, Andrea

First, though, every model in the game needs to be rebuilt so that you actually see the plane parts when you lean out of the cockpit.

Could be done in...oh... two weeks?

LOL!!!

[Sky]

Yeah, it's a nice dream to have...but...shadows right. However it would be a great addition if Storm of War was shelved though.

[choctaw111]

6DOF would be great...HOWEVER too much work would need to be done on the c0ckpits to make it look good. There are holes and missing textures if 6DOF would just be enabled right now. It would look TERRIBLE! Remember that Il2 was released LONG before 6DOF was even realized.

[kristorf]

Won't (in my opinion) ever happen in iL2, lets wait and see what SOW throws at us. :D

[andrea]

As far as I know....BOB will not be released before 2008 forwarded, besides there are legal problems that might take the date of exit away to indefinite time.
At the moment we all are flying with this fantastic old simulator, in a castrated way.

About the 3d models problem....I don't think it's a problem for u if some ugly parts of the plane became visible, and however u can adjust the axis in the trackir software to limit the movement of the game head.

Second Option: 1c Maddox through Kegetys...knows well how is 6dof in IL2, They can regulate this new function to make it usable.

[RockStar]

As cool as 6dof would be, the immersion for me would be sucked right out if I could lean out of the cockpit. No thanks, I'll wait for BoB.

[II./JG1_Krupinski]

Make no mistake, these guys didn't implement 6 DOF in any way; all they did was 'turn it on'.

I'm pretty sure this has always been in IL-2, was just disabled due to the modeling requirements and cockpit restraints for each plane.

At this stage of the game, I wouldn't care one bit about the modeling problems, but I understand that a new can of worms would be opened when people could move their heads outside the canopy.

But, if they find it in their hearts, I'd love to have 4 or 6 DOF.

-Raven

[andrea]

Whoever doesn't like this feature...simply will not use it!

but many people needs to have all the degrees of freedom, and programmers at 1c Maddox knows how to activate this in the correct way to bind other illegal hacking otherwise they would not be programmers

[Triad773]

If you really want 6 DOF now, check out BoB:WOV. It's a decent sim and has cockpits modelled correctly. True you don't get some things IL-2 has, but its infinitely more likely than waiting these cockpits to be remodelled.

RE: 6 DOF and Maddox Games, I will wait for BoB:SoW 8)

[Chivas]

I have track IR with vector and prefer 2DOF when flying BOB WOV. BOB SOW will have it and the majority of combat flight simmers will move to the far more immersive SOW series, making all the work required to implement it in the IL-2 series highly unlikely.

[SlipBall]

Yes, a long shot at best....but there is alway's Sow :D

[tagTaken2]

I can understand how Oleg feels about cockpit corruption... even if 6dof is switchable. But at the same time, a number of us are impatient for/or just don't have a capable PC for SoW engine.

[BadAim]

I aggree that 6DOF would be bad for online, but I would love to see a way to get 4DOF I.E., being able to use the existing "zoom" function with track IR. there used to be a solution allowing this but it was apparrently using a hole in the track IR's driver. I think it could be implemented fairly easily, but of course there is oly so much manpower available. Such is life.

[RockStar]

I aggree that 6DOF would be bad for online, but I would love to see a way to get 4DOF I.E., being able to use the existing "zoom" function with track IR. there used to be a solution allowing this but it was apparrently using a hole in the track IR's driver. I think it could be implemented fairly easily, but of course there is oly so much manpower available. Such is life.

LOMAC is like that with the zoom feature. I agree that would be a cool addition without going full blown 6dof.

[andrea]

ok people!
I know that there are many sim supporting vector expansion, but unfortunately the only WWII simulator that deserve this name is IL2 sturmovik\1946, so all the pro users plays with IL2, and doesn't need arcade titles like BOB:Wov or Ace Combat and similar...these are videogames for children.

We got the king of sim and after 6 years of existence, buying completely new versions and patch, will be correct to free all the degrees of freedom.

I bought Trackir for IL2, but IL2 doesn't let me use it to the full, and I think, programmers at 1CMaddox knows how to insert this feature in the correct way, otherwise they will be not programmers!

One voice will remain only a voice, but many voices is a mass request!

[Triad773]

Actually andrea, I've played BoB:WOV and it is not arcade at all. The FM is different, in some ways echoing the experiences of those who flew planes of the era. Carborator engine in Hurri and Spit that has the tendency to cough and sputter under negative G's, different torque modelling, not what I'd call arcade at all.

Not questioning your request Sir, but I'd think if you have tried that sim you would not call it arcade. When I feel the need for 6DOF, I crank it up and it is a challenge to master. That and they have moved beyond the Rowan engine and developed their own game engine, ironically called Merlin. It'll do until BoB:SOW. Also- for the record, IL-2 is still my fav 8) with so many aircraft left for me to fly, let alone master.

Just my opinion.

~S~

Triad

[Chivas]

I'm not BOB WOV biggest fan but its hardly "these are videogames for children." category. Far from it... its is very difficult and your chances of survival are very limited in some stages of the campaign.

That being said...I much prefer the FM, DM, and graphics in the IL-2 series. I do like the clouds in WOV even if they look alittle weird at times. BOB WOV is being improved every day by a few very dedicated souls.

You will never see 6DOF in the IL-2 series unless the cockpits are fixed. All you would hear on the forums is how ugly the IL-2 cockpits are when using the Vector option. Oleg would never allow that to happen.

[Triad773]

I'm not BOB WOV biggest fan but its hardly "these are videogames for children." category. Far from it... its is very difficult and your chances of survival are very limited in some stages of the campaign.

That being said...I much prefer the FM, DM, and graphics in the IL-2 series. I do like the clouds in WOV even if they look alittle weird at times. BOB WOV is being improved every day by a few very dedicated souls.

You will never see 6DOF in the IL-2 series unless the cockpits are fixed. All you would hear on the forums is how ugly the IL-2 cockpits are when using the Vector option. Oleg would never allow that to happen.

^ +1

[mrsiCkstar]

I agree 6DOF would be a problem for IL2. You would look behind you, lean past the headrest of your chair, and that's where your plane would end. You would see a floating pair of elevons and half a vertical stabilizer and that's it.

You would lean a little closer to the canopy to look down to the ground below you, and you would find your wing roots are missing! You'd rise up a little to see past that 190 bar and the whole front of the plane would be missing apart from a floating prop.

Immersion killer. The amount of work required to make 6DOF properly for IL2 is not just about "switching it on" in the code. You'd need to remodel the cockpits and more. As a result the game would demand more from the hardware and people would be complaining.

a lean forward function would be nice though and would work as well.

[Triad773]

Yeah a Z axis would work well in theory; maybe make it like as if you had the Delete, End and Page Down keys for view on some type of 'slider' that would work with mouse or TrackIR.

But having said that, I'd also imagine that if such a feature were easy enough to implement, it would have been already.

[andrea]

I have tried only BOB:WoV'S demo and it has seemed to me very much faraway the precision and the realism of IL2. Saying that it is an Arcade game has been an exaggeration to make understand that the one who uses IL2 for years, does not start to play BOB, for the quality of the game and for the multiplayer community that turns around it.

About 6dof in IL2:
Seeing the video on youtube showing IL2's 6dof in action it has not seemed to me quite so disastrous. Have you ever tried Live For speed S2 with the vector? sometimes the head escape out of the vehicle, but LFS' programmers Staff has decided to insert, in any case, this possibility for the users and no one has never lamented, considering that LFS is a multyplayer game!

[mwolf]

yes andrea but Oleg wants to be all in the best shape or he wont turn it on, and i agree with that decision.
I am for 6 DOF but in BoB SOW

my 2 cents

[vanderstok]

The only feasible solution would be to have only a little room for head-movement, say a couple of inches sideways and one inch vertically and use z-axis for zoom. This way, you would still be able to look behind a strut, but wouldn't see all the missing fuselage pieces.

Remember, when your head shakes in the game, the cockpit looks okay so it should be possible. Perhaps, as a downside, head shakes should be restricted then even more...

[crazyivan1970]

Not going to happen. Not in IL-2.

[GOZR]

Well maybe in a different version who knows...

[Robert]

With 1C/Maddox Games working on BoB:SoW I fail to see where the company would find the time to impliment 6DoF in the proper manner.

With so many other issues affecting IL2 '46, 6DoF is the last thing I'd want implimented. (Trust me. I wave my fist in frustration when a plane hides behind a pillar too.)

The IL2 engine is old. It's time for the new one in BoB. That's where efforts and resourses are being spent, and I'd prefer it that way.

Some may not be waiting with baited breath to have BoB released, and that's fine, but Oleg's resources are for BoB not IL2. His payroll is banked with the new sim.... not a 6 year old game that has little potential to earn more money.


As for BoB:WoV from Shockwave? I'd recommend the 2.06 patch. The demo isn't a fair indication of the great work done by extreemly dedicated individuals working on that game.

[Bearcat]

I aggree that 6DOF would be bad for online, but I would love to see a way to get 4DOF I.E., being able to use the existing "zoom" function with track IR. there used to be a solution allowing this but it was apparrently using a hole in the track IR's driver. I think it could be implemented fairly easily, but of course there is oly so much manpower available. Such is life.

You can do that depending on your stick... just set a button to > or < FoV... if you use a Saitek or a CH stick.. or any stick with decent profiling software, you can assign a button to these keys and simulate looking in and out... thats the only way I ca read my gauges...

While it would be nice to have 6DoF in thos sim I would rather not have it than see the same results I saw in that FW-190 video on You tube... they guy is loking in 6Ds yes.. but at one point his head is outside of his closed cockpit... and on other planes you can see through the gaps in the frame...

Not going to happen. Not in IL-2.

I dont see it either...


Make no mistake, these guys didn't implement 6 DOF in any way; all they did was 'turn it on'.
I'm pretty sure this has always been in IL-2, was just disabled due to the modeling requirements and cockpit restraints for each plane.
At this stage of the game, I wouldn't care one bit about the modeling problems, but I understand that a new can of worms would be opened when people could move their heads outside the canopy.
But, if they find it in their hearts, I'd love to have 4 or 6 DOF.
-Raven


Therin lies the problem... the models that they chose to do this on had the extra space in the 3D model... but what about the planes that don't have that extra space because the models weren t made with 6DoF in mind...? You would get the holes and such like what we saw in the P-38 video...

Whoever doesn't like this feature...simply will not use it!
but many people needs to have all the degrees of freedom, and programmers at 1c Maddox knows how to activate this in the correct way to bind other illegal hacking otherwise they would not be programmers

It isn't that simple...

[GOZR]

Bearcat 6DOF can be made with a limitation as i did for my BOB2 thx..
an example. http://youtube.com/watch?v=KVL_iwAksxE

limitation up and down with G's and movements as well a invisible box that cannot get through .. to each plane limitations some more and some less with the respect of the cockpits.

[andrea]

Do u think 1C Maddox Staff could not insert another 4 degrees of freedom in the correct way? blocking the head to the cockpit's natural limits?

They can for sure....I know that they are working on a new game like BOB, but after 6 years of IL2 history, 6years of money spent for games and patch, 6 years of faith...we deserve 6dof!


Look at Grand Prix Legends, one of the most appreciated and used game in multyplayer...the game has changed completely with patch, add-ons and of course 6dof....6dof for a 1998 game!

Look at Aces High 2...When u zoom to the cockpit you can see some modelling errors, but viewing around here is so natural and beauty..!!

Even Falcon 4.0 and Lockon after years...with the latest patch and versions has got 6dof now! it seems that it lacks only at the great IL2 community

[BadAim]

I aggree that 6DOF would be bad for online, but I would love to see a way to get 4DOF I.E., being able to use the existing "zoom" function with track IR. there used to be a solution allowing this but it was apparrently using a hole in the track IR's driver. I think it could be implemented fairly easily, but of course there is oly so much manpower available. Such is life.

You can do that depending on your stick... just set a button to > or < FoV... if you use a Saitek or a CH stick.. or any stick with decent profiling software, you can assign a button to these keys and simulate looking in and out... thats the only way I ca read my gauges... .

Yeah, I know, I actually have the entire range if 13 FOV's set on my x52's linear slider (great effect by the way). I was just dreaming.

[Duke]

I agree with andrea 110%, turn it on and those who can live with cockpit irregularities will use it while those who cant, won't. Make it a toggle switch and add it to the difficulty settings then it's n00b friendly.

Just my $.02 :wink:

[andrea]

Just my $.02 :wink:

one beer for u Duke! :wink:

[Bearcat]

Do u think 1C Maddox Staff could not insert another 4 degrees of freedom in the correct way? blocking the head to the cockpit's natural limits?

They can for sure....I know that they are working on a new game like BOB, but after 6 years of IL2 history, 6years of money spent for games and patch, 6 years of faith...we deserve 6dof!


Look at Grand Prix Legends, one of the most appreciated and used game in multyplayer...the game has changed completely with patch, add-ons and of course 6dof....6dof for a 1998 game!

Look at Aces High 2...When u zoom to the cockpit you can see some modelling errors, but viewing around here is so natural and beauty..!!

Even Falcon 4.0 and Lockon after years...with the latest patch and versions has got 6dof now! it seems that it lacks only at the great IL2 community

From my understanding and of course I could be wrong.. but it is not as easy as turning it on or inserting the degrees... 6DoF works because.. and this is so simple as to just zoom by... there is something that is drawn and modeled in the space behind whatever object you are looking around. If nothing is drawn there.. then thats what you will see... some cockpits were designed after 6Dof came out.. or maybe they were just drawn with more polys ... but some weren't... I never met OM but from what I can see the man is picky. He doesn't want to let something that is not up to his standards be released in his sim. Thats why when we did get some new planes a while back... 1C had to redo a lot of the cockpits because they were not up to snuff. Granted there are some gauges that dont work in all planes...... and yeah.. we don't have 6DoF... but to expect the man to "give us 6Dof" or just "turn it on... we dont mind how bad it looks" is like expecting a one armed man to play a violin. It isn't going to happen. Perhaps in the future 1C will release something to give this sim more freedom... I dont know.... and I really don't care because even though I am not happy with everything about this sim I am happy with most thinsg about it... and the things I dont like.... well I deal with....

[Shadow]

I agree with andrea 110%, turn it on and those who can live with cockpit irregularities will use it while those who cant, won't. Make it a toggle switch and add it to the difficulty settings then it's n00b friendly.

Just my $.02 :wink:

Duke, it's not the cockpit irregularities that would be the problem.

I'll give you a scenario:

On Zekes, a full switch server, pilot 'A' has 6DOF enabled and pilot 'B' doesn't. Now A and B get in a dogfight. B is sneaking in below A for a belly shot where he should not be able to be seen.

But A simply leans over and looks down through the invisible wing root or leans forward and looks down through the invisible cowling and spots B easily.

Think about that and ask yourself how fair it would be to have, what is basically Wonder Woman view, on a full switch server.

If it's not going to be implemented correctly (and it isn't, IMO) then don't implement it at all.

[GOZR]

Hard heads around here Stop Bear Stooooooooopp!!!!
You have to stop to think that it's impossible.. it is possible..
If the team don't have the time .. i do.. i could fix all planes one by one for the best use of track ir 6 DOF with limits.. but can't do .. no word from the boss..

Ok here a sample all planes have a "head movements" wank your stick Left Right Up and Down this is what 6DOF kind of look like and is IF ALL planes can have those G forces movements in game you can add those same movements in the track ir 6 dof with out even deforming the pits since they ARE already there..

So it's not much but this is a minimum but when following a target this can help a bit mostly with those cockpits bars, now adding 10 % to this would be find side to side and forward.. a greater feeling for sure.. Up must be almost untouch for cockpit textures holes Down you can more..

Here my old work sample of those 6DOF in BOB2 on a 109E the original BOB2 109E do not respond like in my video ..
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KVL_iwAksxE
On this movie my head Can't pass through cockpits textures. but in IL2 it's possible to do this but ofcourse for security of cockpits sake it can be reduced a lot to not go through them..

OK NOW look at this video just showing some effects and the last part is IL2 you will see how the g forces move the head witch can be included at minimum in IL2.
Enjoy.......and observe well..
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-wEQ-XWizfs

Now imagine adding this possibility to 4.09m..

[TUSA/TX-Gunslinger]

Gozr could do it, you know - if he had permission and blessing.

S~

Gunny

[csThor]

Against for one simple reason. Right now activating 6DOF would not only result in GFX errors (the removed polys) but the more important reason is that enabling it would be nothing but a money cheat. As long as there are no control mechanisms for those who do not have TIR with 6DOF it would be an imbalance and give too much an advantage to TIR owners.

My 0,02 € ...

[GOZR]

What ? Hugh! Well Control it's what is all about.. am i so Uncomprehensive ?

So for you we should stick all to hat switches ? how are you going to do with SOW?
....... :roll:

Seriously you are right that it should be contained there is no doubt about this and it's what I say

[csThor]

GOZR - I have recently purchased TIR 4, but I still say you either provide a fair and square system which does not overadvantage a user because he had the money to purchase a certain technical gadget or you simply promote and support the narrow-minded elitism that has got a decent chunk of the flight simmers in its grip. I have already heard the sentence "If you don't have a 200$ HOTAS setup and pedals you're not a real simmer" ... I don't need any more of that.

For SoW there has to be a system in place that allows non-TIR owners to lean left/right etc though keyboard commands. Given the numerous seemingly simple/easy requests which have been met with "no time" or complete silence I assume new keyboard commands to be out of question for Il-2. That was, what I wanted to say ...

[andrea]

Against for one simple reason. Right now activating 6DOF would not only result in GFX errors (the removed polys) but the more important reason is that enabling it would be nothing but a money cheat. As long as there are no control mechanisms for those who do not have TIR with 6DOF it would be an imbalance and give too much an advantage to TIR owners.

My 0,02 € ...

Ehi....What do u say about to remove support for Hotas like Cougar or Saitek X52, following this way...will be no more advantage for rich users!!!
(oh my god) :cry:

[Hammer]

GOZR - I have recently purchased TIR 4, but I still say you either provide a fair and square system which does not overadvantage a user because he had the money to purchase a certain technical gadget or you simply promote and support the narrow-minded elitism that has got a decent chunk of the flight simmers in its grip. I have already heard the sentence "If you don't have a 200$ HOTAS setup and pedals you're not a real simmer" ... I don't need any more of that.

Do you Know that there is a program called -FREETRACK- m8? It is FREE and
to built a 3-led system is really cheap too- So if GOZR or others Guru-programmer can help all of us to have 6Dof even "a poor" simmer would have the chance and possibility to use it EVEN WITHOUT BUYING any expensive TiR system. 8) (my 2$...)