Other armament corrections

[IceFire]

I feel like we were pretty successful in the end in digging up the correct armament options for the Yak-9UT which had been wrong since it's introduction. Fortunately thanks to some folks on this forum and some additional work we were able to find everything we needed including some extremely useful documents in Russian that Google Translate helped with.

So I'm wondering if there are some other aircraft where the armament is flat out wrong. I'm not asking for a .50cal effectiveness thread... that's another subject altogether. This is about aircraft with guns that are incorrect.

Off the top of my head there are most of the Japanese Navy fighters that have the wrong type of cannons installed. The A6M should have the Type 99-I or Type 99-II installed depending on which model of Zero. In-game they have MG-FF/M cannons. A close cousin of the weapon that the Japanese used but not the same gun. I believe the later Zeros also use the MG131 for their heavy machine gun armament.

The J2M3 should have a mix of Type 99 I and II whereas the J2M5 should have all 99-II. Not sure what cannons the N1K1 and 2 should have but I would assume the 99-II. Need to do some more research.

What color of tracer did the Japanese use? Was it really yellow?

Also the FM-2 I believe should be able to be fitted with HVAR rockets as should the P-51D.

What do people know about and what realistic options can we potentially ask to be changed by TD in the future?

[Mysticpuma]

P-51 with rockets, cluster/fragmentation bombs, K-14 gunsite, Napalm. That would be nice? Cheers MP

[TinyTim]

Good thread Ice! Glad to see the Yak-9UT getting its armament fixed.

Speaking of Yaks - Yak-3 VK-107 has wrong armament too. According to Yefim Gordon it was fitted either with two (both in cowling) or with three B-20 cannons (additional one firing through the spinner). In the sim it has one ShVAK (between cilinders) and one UBS (cowling).

Generally I agree, armament on Japanese planes seems to be a mess. Developers appeared to have used placeholder weapons which then never got replaced.

About J2M3 - according to Rene Francillon this version of the plane came with both armament options you mentioned - 2 x type99-I + 2 x type99-II or 4 x type99-II. To distinguish between the two, the latter was named J2M3a, so technically you are right, but then our J2M3 can simply be renamed J2M3a and everything is fine.

Ki-46-III Kai is another example - it's obliquely firing cannon is Russian one, instead of Ho-203 (again according to Rene Francillon).

Also VYa-23 appears to be used on many russian planes in place of NS-23.

[JG53Frankyboy]

Overworked ammoloadouts for the IAR80/81.
Generaly said, they have around twice as much ammo in their weapons as they should.
And also the 81a has a "replacement" weapon. A 13mm MG131 instead a 13mm Browning :D

A Fw190F-8 with Panzerblitz antitank rockets would be nice.

[Erkki]

Hmm...

I-16 type 24 should have 4 x ShKAS when it now has 2 ShVak 2 ShKas, type 28 was the one with ShVak cannons(dunno which one the performance matches), type 24 was apparently way more produced but a name change could work too.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Bomb load is missing on all Spitfire V variants.

[choctaw111]

What color of tracer did the Japanese use? Was it really yellow?



Yes. They were all yellow.
I have quite a bit of information on tracer colors, sorted by country and the list of guns with tracer color.
I posted this on the UBI forum a couple years ago.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6901032287

Scroll down a few posts till you get to my username.

[JG53Frankyboy]

The A6M5b is missing a light MG in its nose.
It had a haevy AND light one as nose armament.
The light one was deleted with the 5c, to sace weight because of the additional heavy MGs in the wings.

[Oktoberfest]

Capacity to drop rocket pods from german fighters after firing, as historical.

[JG53Frankyboy]

Capacity to drop rocket pods from german fighters after firing, as historical.

Possible since 4.10, read the guide...
Just give this command a key

[JG52Karaya]

I think the Yak-3 VK107 has more wrong about it than just the armament. I'm no Yak expert but looking at it in the armament screen it seems to be much larger than the regular Yak-3 (fuselage, wings), more of the general size of a Yak-9U.

So as far as I can tell the current Yak-3 VK107 seems to use some sort of modified Yak-9U model while it should be very much similar to the normal Yak-3 using the smaller wing (14.85m^2 vs 17.15m^2 on all other Yaks)

Good thread Ice! Glad to see the Yak-9UT getting its armament fixed.

Speaking of Yaks - Yak-3 VK-107 has wrong armament too. According to Yefim Gordon it was fitted either with two (both in cowling) or with three B-20 cannons (additional one firing through the spinner). In the sim it has one ShVAK (between cilinders) and one UBS (cowling).

[Oktoberfest]

Possible since 4.10, read the guide...
Just give this command a key

Really ? Great ! And thnx. And sorry to have asked :)

[IceFire]

I think the Yak-3 VK107 has more wrong about it than just the armament. I'm no Yak expert but looking at it in the armament screen it seems to be much larger than the regular Yak-3 (fuselage, wings), more of the general size of a Yak-9U.

So as far as I can tell the current Yak-3 VK107 seems to use some sort of modified Yak-9U model while it should be very much similar to the normal Yak-3 using the smaller wing (14.85m^2 vs 17.15m^2 on all other Yaks)

The Yak-3 VK107 is definitely messed up in a bunch of ways but I'm not sure exactly all of them. I think it may be best left in the realm of "WTF" next to the Lerche :)

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Bombs and tanks on long nose Fw109's. Panzerblitz rockets for groundattack versions.

[IceFire]

Great thread so far... just the sort of things that maybe can be fixed.

I'd like to see the Japanese types get the proper cannons and machine guns were appropriate. I think the problems extent to some of the AI types as well such as the G4M2 and H8K. I think those are firing MG151/20 cannons out of the rear turrets... but I'm 99% certain that the only MG151/20 usage was seen on the Ki-61 Hei.

[Oktoberfest]

Bombs and tanks on long nose Fw109's. Panzerblitz rockets for groundattack versions.

Is that your wishlist for TD ? Or what TD is actually working on ?????

BTW, don't forget the Bf110 also carried Panzerblitz on the eastern fron :)

[csThor]

Is that your wishlist for TD ? Or what TD is actually working on ?????

BTW, don't forget the Bf110 also carried Panzerblitz on the eastern fron :)

It's his personal wishlist. And the Bf 110 had been phased out by the time the Panzerblitz rockets came into use (except as nightfighter, of course). Only Fw 190 F-8 and F-9 ever used Panzerblitz rockets operationally.

[Oktoberfest]

Ah, I was mistaken about the 110. It wasn't a regular modification.

I just remember one picture that I had seen long ago (can't find it again though) of a 110 with Panzerblitz under the wings. It was certainly a field modification.

I even saw once a picture of a 110 with 6x21 cm rocket under each wing, specially dedicated to ground attack of course. That plane must have flown like a brick. However, this field mod would surely be appreciated for ground pounding. I know it was very rare so I'm not asking at all ! Just dreaming !

[Oktoberfest]

How about the introduction of the RZ65 and RZ73 system though ?

It was used on Bf109F, FW190s and on Bf110 (up to 12 rockets mounted under the belly of the aircraft). Even if precision was not so good, it could give at last an antitank rocket to the Luftwaffe.



http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/luftwaffe/missiles/rz-73--air-to-air-missile.htm

http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/guides/a2g_rockets.htm

I think this could be interesting for pilots who wants to have a twin engined ground pounding aircraft like the P38 but on the blue side.

[Grach]

I agree that a lot of the PF IJN machines have odd weapons fits and should be cleaned up. The H8K1 is one of the most obvious with MG-151/20 and MG-81. At least the G4M has MG-FF/M and .303 Browning which is a bit closer. Also Zeros etc with MG-FF/M and MG-15... Are there any actual Japanese weapons modelled??
Anyway If you guys could see your way clear to cleaning up the H8K1 (even with MG-FF/M and .303 Browning it would be a vast improvement) could you also perhaps include an H8K2 (the major production version) with 20mm in each of the five turrets(!) for a bit of a challenge? ;)

Non-Japanese weapon wishes using already extant models;

1) IAR.80a with six machine guns as flyable. Correct 13.2mm (even .50 cal would suffice) Brownings for IAR.80b and IAR.81a.

2) Mosquito FB.VI with 8x rockets as an option (perhaps a 1944 version with higher boost Merlin 25 engines for this?)

3) add the radio room .50 cal to the various B-17s. Actually, adding the twin .50 cal to the B-17D radio room is pretty critical. At the moment it seems to have no dorsal armament! :eek:

4) Hurricane loadouts: 8 gun IIb option. (The outer 4 guns were often removed in the Far East to lighten the aircraft.) 500lb bombs would also be nice for both IIb and IIc, plus 250lb for the IIc.
The Russian conversions had quite a variety of loadouts, ignoring the various gun options (4x UB or 4x ShVAK) they could be fitted with 4x RS/BRS-82, or various bombs up to 2x 100kg.

That's about it off the top of my head. Thank you for fixing up the loadouts you already have. (I've been waiting ages for an MG-151/20 equipped Bf109G10!) :cool:

[JG53Frankyboy]

B-17 flyable is a MOD, so wrong forum here ;)



here is a nice page about the IAR80/81 with inforamtions about some more suitable ammounts of ammo than the ingame ones :D
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2005/03/stuff_eng_iar80.htm

[JG53Frankyboy]

1000lb bombs for the P-47s wingstations.

and at least an option "additonal ammo + Droptank" please..
in COOP missionbuilding i like to use the P-47 very often with 50% fuel and Droptank but than i cant have the more ammo in the moment :(

[JG53Frankyboy]

some missing loadout mixes for german bombers:
Ju88A-4:
10 SC50 + 2 SC500
10 SC50 + 4 SC500
2 AB250
4 AB250

He111H-2:
4 SC250 + 16 SC50
4 SC250 + 16 SC70
32 SC70

Ju87Ds:
1 AB250
1 AB250 + 4 AB23
1 AB250 + 4 SC50
3 AB250
1 AB500 + 2 AB250

Fw190F-8:
1 SC250 + 4 AB23
1 SC500 + 4 AB23
1 AB250 + 4 AB23
1 AB500 + 4 AB23
and as mentioned
Panzerblitz
Panzerblitz + 1 SC250
Panzerblitz + 1 SC500
Panzerblitz + 1 AB250
Panzerblitz + 1 AB500
would be awesome ;)

[KG26_Alpha]

some missing load out mixes for German bombers:
Ju88A-4:
10 SC50 + 2 SC500
10 SC50 + 4 SC500
2 AB250
4 AB250

He111H-2:
4 SC250 + 16 SC50
4 SC250 + 16 SC70
32 SC70

Ju87Ds:
1 AB250
1 AB250 + 4 AB23
1 AB250 + 4 SC50
3 AB250
1 AB500 + 2 AB250

Fw190F-8:
1 SC250 + 4 AB23
1 SC500 + 4 AB23
1 AB250 + 4 AB23
1 AB500 + 4 AB23
and as mentioned
Panzerblitz
Panzerblitz + 1 SC250
Panzerblitz + 1 SC500
Panzerblitz + 1 AB250
Panzerblitz + 1 AB500
would be awesome ;)

Hi

What load out info do you have for SD and PC, I'm having problems finding correct loadings.

[MBot]

This might be beyond an armament option, but a B-25J with the solid nose featuring 8 .50 cal would be sweet.

[Daniël]

4) Hurricane loadouts: 8 gun IIb option. (The outer 4 guns were often removed in the Far East to lighten the aircraft.) 500lb bombs would also be nice for both IIb and IIc, plus 250lb for the IIc.
The Russian conversions had quite a variety of loadouts, ignoring the various gun options (4x UB or 4x ShVAK) they could be fitted with 4x RS/BRS-82, or various bombs up to 2x 100kg.



If a Hurricane MkII has got 8 guns it's called a MkIIa, 12 guns is MkIIb. But how a MkIIb where 4 guns are removed is called? I don't know.

[koivis]

If a Hurricane MkII has got 8 guns it's called a MkIIa, 12 guns is MkIIb. But how a MkIIb where 4 guns are removed is called? I don't know.

Hurricane Mk IIb 8-gun Field Mod? :-P

But seriously, the difference between IIa and IIb, apart from the guns, was that the IIb could carry underwing bombs and drop tanks. Now it has no other loadout options but only the guns.

[IceFire]

I doubt it'd be a huge effort to produce a armament option on the Hurricane IIb to remove the outer MG's.

A Hurricane IID or Mark IV would be an interesting and fairly straight forward addition as well come to think of it. Useful on our desert maps and in Burma (used there right up to the end of 1944 I believe when they were replaced by lend lease P-47s).

[SUP / Revan]

as i asked caspar once :-P -hey there matey-
bombs for the Macchi MC202
Up to 705 lb, carried on two underwing hardpoints, rated 352 lb each. General disposables load consisted of: 2 × 352 lb, 220 lb, or 110 lb bombs
(metric sizes available)



--------------
no longer SUP

[Grach]

B-17 flyable is a MOD, so wrong forum here ;)

Um, I never said it was flyable and this thread gives no indication that it is discussing fixes for flyables only.
Bottom line is the B-17D, at least, has no dorsal armament where it should have a twin flexible .50 BMG in the radio compartment.
They are very easy targets at the moment, simply attack from above. I'd like them to be less easy targets. I do not use mods. Alles klar? :-)

There is a nice page about the IAR80/81 with inforamtions about some more suitable ammounts of ammo than the ingame ones :D
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2005/03/stuff_eng_iar80.htm

Nice, thank you! :cool:

As far as the 8 gun Hurricane IIB goes, this was a field mod introduced when the RAF started fighting Japanese aircraft. It was felt that 12x .303 were overkill against lightly built Japanese aircraft with 8 guns being regarded as more than enough. Furthermore the weight saving and performance gained after removing the outer four guns, their ammo feeds and the associated protective plate was seen as worthwhile. Please note I am not talking about the IIA. IIRC, some Hurricane IIB were modified this way in Singapore before the fall and many others were subsequently modified like this in CBI.

I thought about suggesting a Hurri IID/IV, but thought best to leave the requests to things that don't need any 3D model changes. ;)

I'd still like to see a 1944 standard Mossie with rockets too. :cool:

[jameson]

Thor,
I have a book called "Fighter" byWerner Held which has 3 pictures of Bf110G-2's of 6 and 7/ZG 76 that are armed with two rocket tubes under each wing. One picture captioned, "Bf 110G-2's....form up to attack the bombers, early 1944"
There is a picture and more info here:
http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg76.htm
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerst%C3%B6rergeschwader_76
where it gives dates for two daylight attacks on bombers, presumably armed with rockets. Both 6&7/ZG 76 were defence of the reich units.

[JG53Frankyboy]

and ?
check M5 armament of the ingame Bf110G-2.

[jameson]

See post 17

[JG53Frankyboy]

sure, but WrfGr.21 ore not Panzerblitz...

[jameson]

sure, but WrfGr.21 ore not Panzerblitz...

Er, true, but one source I have seen said that the Panzerblitz 1 was based upon the WrfGr.21, but given that it didn't come into existence until late '44, both you and Thor are correct, and it's very unlikely any version of the 110 ever saw action with this weapon. (More humble pie!).

[Grach]

Another one that seems to be a mistake of old is the dorsal turret armament of the Il-4.
On the model it is portrayed and indeed should be a 12.7mm UBT.
However the in-game weapon seems to be a 7.62mm ShKAS.

Also does anyone know why the ventral positions on the DB-3F and Il-4 have the ShKAS guns just hanging out in the air like that? :eek:

[HundertneunGustav]

I for one would like to have a pair of 20mms instead of 30mms in the upper nose of the BF-110.
...and then add the belly pack to that, the Droptanks, the Wurfgranaten...

Those 30.mms just do not cut it for me

[Erkki]

I for one would like to have a pair of 20mms instead of 30mms in the upper nose of the BF-110.
...and then add the belly pack to that, the Droptanks, the Wurfgranaten...

Those 30.mms just do not cut it for me

Already has 20mm MG151/20s for most sets, including default.

[JG53Frankyboy]

Yes, but there was a Rüstsatz available thatcreplaced thecMG17 with two MG151/20. So it had 4 20mm canons in nose. Would need some 3D work for the barrels.

[1984]

A Hurricane IID or Mark IV would be an interesting and fairly straight forward addition as well come to think of it. Useful on our desert maps and in Burma (used there right up to the end of 1944 I believe when they were replaced by lend lease P-47s).

i read what USSR received some old Hurricanes IID from africa, flyable, but in bad condition, plus several Mark IV, so, even if soviet 2d and 4 was not used in combats, although 441 IAP PVO had these aircrafts (several sorties to interception) and 246 IAP with >30 IID arrived at the front in june-july'44, anyway, it's additional reason for including these planes with correct performances...

[1984]

Speaking of Yaks - Yak-3 VK-107 has wrong armament too. According to Yefim Gordon it was fitted either with two (both in cowling) or with three B-20 cannons (additional one firing through the spinner). In the sim it has one ShVAK (between cilinders) and one UBS (cowling).

i looked some books...

yes, different versions of yak-3 with m-107 were armed 2 or 3 b-20 in different configurations, but here (http://www.e-reading.org.ua/chapter.php/1010126/11/Yakubovich_-_Neizvestnyy_Yakovlev._Zheleznyy_aviakonstruktor.h tml) written what in 43 first yak-1m with m-107 originally was armed like yak-1m with m-105, ie, ubs+shvak and only later received 2 synchronized b-20 - Первый же Як-1М с двигателем М-107А, как следует из краткого технического описания завода № 115, построили весной, предположительно в марте 1943 года, поскольку вышеупомянутый документ датирован 17 апреля. Вооружение сохранилось, как и на первом опытном экземпляре Як-1М, – мотор-пушка МП-20 и пулемет БС.

После заводских испытаний первый прототип Як-3 с мотором ВК-107А подвергли переделкам на опытном заводе № 115. Доработки в основном были связаны с заменой вооружения на два синхронных орудия Б-20.

if i'm remember right, in game on external views 2 gun ports, 1 motor-gun and 1 left synchronized, well, it's correct for some planes like yak-3 N04-01 with metal wings and m-107 and all-metal yak-3 with m-107...

so, i think, at first time, without any serious changes, DT can give for this yak 2 b-20 (100-120 rounds per gun, depends on configuration and plane, here i think need 120 for all), or can leave ubs+shvak for fun and "2 x b-20" like option...

about other things like performance, 3d model etc, of course, any fix for this yak it's good, but i agree what in game lot of REAL planes with errors...


and for confirmation, in total, attached table from Stepanets (i remind what it's very generalized table without context)...

[IceFire]

The Yak-3 VK-107 has been kind of left alone since it was introduced in IL-2 1946. It's a weird prototype. To make it a more like a real series production model, it'd need some work.

That's why I focused on the grossly inaccurate and wartime serving Yak-9UT first :)

[zipper]

The Do335 initially released in game had some issue concerning 151/20's in place of 151/15's as I recall, I have no idea if that has already been dealt with. The V13 switched to the 151/20's and should have an armored windscreen, dual rear view mirrors, a larger nose wheel that rotates roughly 45 degrees while retracting and larger mainwheels and their doors . The V14 is the one that introduced the wing mounted 103's. Those last items are, obviously, model changes. The 335 when operating on one engine was also about 50mph faster on the rear engine than the front, 350mph versus 302mph for the A.


...Oh, and the rear propeller should be about three inches smaller in diameter than the front...


:D

[1984]

The Yak-3 VK-107 has been kind of left alone since it was introduced in IL-2 1946. It's a weird prototype.To make it a more like a real series production model, it'd need some work.

That's why I focused on the grossly inaccurate and wartime serving Yak-9UT first :)

agree, in total, but when i started read about these yaks, understood what all not so bad, of course, need fix many things like and for lot of other planes, but in this case DT can easy do only what i'm proposed - it's just will be more historically correct armed plane - and forget about him for a long time...

plus here changes only in code or something like this, 10 mins of work and hour for tests, i think...

well, gradual fixing of some things, what wrong here? and i'm not talking about franken planes and other similar things, but absolute perfectionism here it's can be serious problem for players who wait any changes, even simple, already very long time...

ie, generally speaking, for example for soviet planes in game could make lot of similar fixes like 2 b-20 for yak-3 m-107, number of shells for lagg-3, etc etc etc, it's important, but easy to do, can be in patches, in something like 4.1x.1, etc, and we won't wait long time these simple things...

this why, partly, i write here my findings and this is only my opinion, of course...

[1984]

i think, another little and easy correction of armament, now for "il-2 field mod"...

apparently, gunner with DA-2, ie, MG did "field mod" with turret of r-5 or something like this... now in game have r-5... so, if in game we have DA, maybe, need replace what now (2 shkas with 1000 rounds in compare 4.09), at least, on what we have (even if it's PV-1 from i-16 type 5) or do DA, if this not hard...

because 2 shkas it's too good and, in RL, if i'm not mistaken, for field mods was used mainly one shkas in part of turret of pe-2 (like in attached pic)...

plus, in ideal, need replacing of disks, because was around 60 rounds per disk...

and, maybe, DT can do now gunner of this il-2 with parts from r-5 and tb-3? or... well... just i want "fully" flyable il-2 field mod and apparently we have now some details and parts for this... but, of course, it's not really better than frankenplanes, apparently...

[1984]

i'm not really specialist on i-185 and not read, carefully, all these great books by Maslov etc, well, not mass plane etc... but... i think weapon for all i-185s ie and with m-82 and with m-71 was same, ammo boxes too, so, apparently if in 4.11 how and in 4.09 all planes have 220 rounds for each shvak, 660 in total, it's wrong...

correctly - from "brief technical description of plane i-185-71 (etalon)", 1942 (http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_30546_start_0.html) - 560 in total (250 for upper gun, 170 for right gun, 140 for left gun)...

plus, i-185-71 ie plane with m-71 had or could have bombs and rockets how plane with m-82 in game, page from description (http://postimage.org/image/o86bfnhg), but at first maybe need fix only main error if this true ie after confirmation from books...

apparently, it's will be very easy...