Guncam footage - why aren't those gunners doing anything?

[Azimech]

Here is some collected footage, the part that is interesting is a bf-110 G2 attacking a B-17 from the rear, starting at 1:45. The rear and ventral gunners don't seem to fire back and it's possible they were out of ammo or already killed. The B-17 received much more hits than possible in IL2 1946 without catching fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oA9zy-qtxA

[Skarphol]

I think it might be very difficult to see that the gunners are firing back at you. The tracers will probably not be visible as the bullets are coming towards the camera, and the muzzle flashes are probably washed away by the 300 km/h wind.

Skarphol

[winny]

Here's just the part referenced..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4KF74TKcE&playnext=1&list=PL81FD94BD4F55C2AD

The B-17 looks 'dead' to me, powered guns are hanging down and the side ones look to be abandoned too. My guess would be the crew (or what was left) already bailed.

[Erkki]

Good part of the crew is probably dead. Or at least the turrets are out of power...

[HenFre]

Take a look at 0:08.. I think it is a crewmember bailing out. Thought at first it was debris falling off the plane, but the Me-110 is not shooting at the B-17 at that very moment..

[IceFire]

I disagree about the number of hits... Although that B-17 took a pounding it was not hit as much as it takes to light a B-17 on fire, typically, in IL-2. Certainly the gunnery would need to be more accurate but in the couple of seconds that this Bf110 was firing he hit both port and starboard wings, engines, the tail section and the fuselage.

I remember watching that before and wondering the same thing about the lack of gunner response. But the ball turret doesn't look like it's doing anything at all. Just hanging downwards. So maybe everyone is right... the plane is already abandoned/dead.

[swiss]

I can't spot any major damage, the plane isn't burning or leaking anything, all 4 engines are still running - why would they abandon the plane?

I would guess most of them are dead/injured.
Also the plane banks several times and goes back to level flight; auto- or real pilot?

0:08: Whatever leaves the planes there is rotating damn fast. It's either a part of the plane that fell off or something they threw out.

[TheSwede]

I´ve seen this clip maybe 60 times over the years and I know that there are earlier moments of the same clip available somewhere on youtube.

In the longer clip the 110 closes in on the bomber from a low 8 o´clock position and before the pilot gains a firing solution you can see smoke coming from the tail gunner while firing. But I think he is silenced by the 110 later on.

So the ship is not abandon by all its crew members but the ball turret is in its locked position so maybe the intercom was shot up and just some of the gunners bailed.

[HenFre]

0:08: Whatever leaves the planes there is rotating damn fast. It's either a part of the plane that fell off or something they threw out.

I do not think that the thing/crewmember is rotating. Allthough it looks like it is spinning around it seems to be because of the low quality and low resolution of the video.

But then again I could be wrong :)

[choctaw111]

I think it might be very difficult to see that the gunners are firing back at you. The tracers will probably not be visible as the bullets are coming towards the camera, and the muzzle flashes are probably washed away by the 300 km/h wind.

Skarphol

Here is an interesting fact regarding tracers used in bombers and gunner positions.
There was a special tracer made solely for the purpose of the enemy being able to see them.
They were designated the M21 Headlight and were several times brighter than a normal tracer. Some versions even had holes on the side of the bullet so the tracer element would burn out the side and even more visible.
The idea was to distract or intimidate the enemy pilots.

[Letum]

Gun footage in which the enemy fires back isn't usually kept.
If you show rookies image of the enemy firing back then there aren't as likely to try such effective (yet somewhat suicidal) approaches on the bomber's six.

[Royraiden]

Gun footage in which the enemy fires back isn't usually kept.
If you show rookies image of the enemy firing back then there aren't as likely to try such effective (yet somewhat suicidal) approaches on the bomber's six.

Would be nice to see them though.There should be several guncam footage archived in different places.Would be nice to have access to every film we could.

[Fergal69]

I found the B17 getting shoot at by the ME110 a sad & poignant piece of film.

If there were crew in there, you are watching what could be their last moments, especially the tail gunner as that got a fair pounding.

[Sven]

I found the B17 getting shoot at by the ME110 a sad & poignant piece of film.

If there were crew in there, you are watching what could be their last moments, especially the tail gunner as that got a fair pounding.

Yes nature can be very sad some times, hence the big red X on the right top of your screen.

The material was useful though for the Luftwaffe, finding weak spots in the aircraft, improving of accuracy for next sortie and more.

[BadAim]

Yes nature can be very sad some times, hence the big red X on the right top of your screen.

The material was useful though for the Luftwaffe, finding weak spots in the aircraft, improving of accuracy for next sortie and more.

I'm curious what the hell war has to do with nature, and why a man has to be ridiculed for having feelings? It seems being a man at all has gone out of style.

[BadAim]

I found the B17 getting shoot at by the ME110 a sad & poignant piece of film.

If there were crew in there, you are watching what could be their last moments, especially the tail gunner as that got a fair pounding.

Yeah, mate. It's the price of freedom. Payed in those days by men who feared being found a coward more than they feared death, I fear that there are few of them left.

[Sven]

I'm curious what the hell war has to do with nature, and why a man has to be ridiculed for having feelings? It seems being a man at all has gone out of style.

I didn't want to redicule anyone, but you have a choise you know to look the other way when you face sad events in history. Some of us do appreciate this all is available, and not poignant.
As far as I know BadAim, there's no alien life present here, so everything has to be nature, you'll see likewise events on Animal Planet, where the hunter hunts for the weakest prey and eats it, even though the prey could hardly resist himself or protect itself.

[GnigruH]

you'll see likewise events on Animal Planet, where the hunter hunts for the weakest prey and eats it, even though the prey could hardly resist himself or protect itself
Nice theory, its only flaw is that humans can survive without killing other humans.
So comparing war to what you can see on Animal Planet is quite inappropriate imo.

Back on topic - yes, there are some popular gun cam footages on YouTube and, as you can figure out reading comments below them, throughout the years various ppl asked the same question: why those gunners don't shoot back?
Well, the answer is rather simple - they are dead or they're not there.

Gun footage in which the enemy fires back isn't usually kept.
If you show rookies image of the enemy firing back then there aren't as likely to try such effective (yet somewhat suicidal) approaches on the bomber's six.
True.
I might add that footage from fighters which were shot down during unsuccessful attacks is also discarded when the burning wreck hits the ground.

[Sven]

Nice theory, its only flaw is that humans can survive without killing other humans.
So comparing war to what you can see on Animal Planet is quite inappropriate imo.


All right I"ll try that that next time on a full real server, I just have the feeling that my opponent will kill me when he gets a chance. I believe it was no different in any real war. I'll make this my final point, everybody has different feelings about these concerns, no point in endlessly exchanging opinions.

[TinyTim]

One reason - basic probability theory.

It's much more unlikely to see a guncam from a fighter, parked at close range on a dead 6 of an american heavy bomber with all defensive guns blazing at him simply because the probability of the fighter surviving such an encounter and bringing back the footage is much lower.

Besides, yeah, its sad watching these planes getting shot to pieces - what a horrible moments for the crew, which was, correct me if I'm wrong, only trying to drop humanitarian aid to the civilians below. Sorry, but I find it very hard to find any compassion for any soldier in WW2 which was involved in killing civilians, regardless of the side they fought on and of the side of targetted civilians.

[GnigruH]

Well, I could say that those gunners weren't killing any civilians. The bombardier was. This kind of arguing leads to nowhere.

[BadAim]

How fooking useless an argument can you get, If you have compassion on one person, you must be incompassionate about another!

Is there nothing but fools out there?

I feel the same about the soldiers as the civilians, am I a villain?

[xnomad]

The B-17 guns could have all been out of ammo.

The guns on the B-17 usually had a minutes worth of ammunition:
http://www.b17.org/history/specs.asp

Imagine flying all the way to Schweinfurt and back being harrassed by fighters most of the way. There's a very good chance you are going to run out of ammo especially if you lose contact with the formation and you are on your own. The footage does show that this bomber is alone.

50 cal ammo weighs a lot so you can't take that much with you.

[swiss]

I´ve seen this clip maybe 60 times over the years and I know that there are earlier moments of the same clip available somewhere on youtube.

In the longer clip the 110 closes in on the bomber from a low 8 o´clock position and before the pilot gains a firing solution you can see smoke coming from the tail gunner while firing. But I think he is silenced by the 110 later on.



5:21 (can't link to 5:21 wtf?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDG0eJRn9m4&t=5m21s

[TheSwede]

5:21 (can't link to 5:21 wtf?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDG0eJRn9m4&t=5m21s

Thats the one! Look carefully at 5.32 and onwards and you will see some smoke from the tail gunner. Poor guy, he just sits there, trying to defend his crew and maybe the ammo is out before he can engage the 110. :(

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The Germans did not employ gun cameras as standard equipment on their aircraft, unlike the British and Americans.

These films were shot for the instruction of new German pilots, not as records to allow kills to be confirmed or not.

So obviously the films which best illustrate a successful method to attack B-17's are the ones which didn't end up on the cutting room floor.

[MD_Titus]

I found the B17 getting shoot at by the ME110 a sad & poignant piece of film.

If there were crew in there, you are watching what could be their last moments, especially the tail gunner as that got a fair pounding.

concur.

ball gunner as well, the turret takes a lot of hits.

[TheDawg]

Wasn't this a film of either a captured or DOA bomber used for propaganda? I spent a minute or two trying to find the original and the explanation that went with it without luck, trying to think of the site it first appeared on 5-6 years ago.

[Tempest123]

After watching it I would guess that the ball turret gunner was killed, if not the tail gunner or waist gunners too, many hits to the fuslage.

[Biggs [CV]]

There used to be footage of a bomber (I think a B-17) that absolutely gets shredded by a german fighter, and I mean just annihilated. I have not been able to find that footage. I think the footage shows the bomber from the front. Anyone know the vid I'm speaking of?

[TheSwede]

There is a clip of a 190 making a head on attack on a B24. Its just a quick burst but its completely concentrated in the cabin. :/

That 190 pilot showed signs of a true marksman as even in the slow motion, the closing speed is terrific.

[GnigruH]

I know this one, I was also amazed by his shooting skills (or how lucky he was).
Although he consciously killed 2 or 3 people with that burst.
I seriously doubt that 1st and 2nd pilot survived that.

[Kittle]

The thought of flying imperfect high performance fighter aircraft several miles above the earth at hundreds of miles per hour with lead flying in all directions trying to focus on bringing down a bomber loaded with death for your parents, children, wife leads men to perform extraordinary feats. Just getting a kill would be a remarkable achivement. And for the B17 crews, thousands of miles from home, in the cold emptieness of 25,000 feet, fingers numb, watching his friends fall from the sky in blazing infernos knowing full well you may be next. WWII was brutal, cold, death in every possible form waiting in ambush.

Any one of those men was both hero and villan, there are no real sides, just death.

[TheSwede]

The thought of flying imperfect high performance fighter aircraft several miles above the earth at hundreds of miles per hour with lead flying in all directions trying to focus on bringing down a bomber loaded with death for your parents, children, wife leads men to perform extraordinary feats. Just getting a kill would be a remarkable achivement. And for the B17 crews, thousands of miles from home, in the cold emptieness of 25,000 feet, fingers numb, watching his friends fall from the sky in blazing infernos knowing full well you may be next. WWII was brutal, cold, death in every possible form waiting in ambush.

Any one of those men was both hero and villan, there are no real sides, just death.

+1 mate.

I hope that in the future of mankind, no one should experience this situation again.

We can only try to keep the legacy of these remarkable young men alive and that what they did will never be forgotten.

[Art-J]

My bet is the ball turret gunner had been pulled out of the turret (pointing the guns 90 deg downwards gave access to the turret from the inside of the plane), maybe because of lack of ammo. Same for the rear gunner - there's quite some time between the last rounds fired by him and the first direct hit in his station scored by the fighter. I know I If was out of ammo, I wouldn't sit in the turret just watching the show and waiting for the bandit to get THAT close and kill me.

Of course, what happened next is another story.

Cheers.