A thought

[Screwball]

Dear all,

Firstly, I must thank and congratulate Mr Maddox and all who have worked on his projects for the original Il-2 series (which has given me neigh on a decade of enjoyment and entertainment) and for the upcoming series, which promises to set the benchmark for years to come despite its shortcomings and revisions on release. Quite an achievement!

I, along with I'm sure many of this forum's UK-based members, watched the Dambusters film this afternoon and got thinking about bomber depictions in our sims. It struck me that not shipping the Il2:CoD with a campaign for the Vickers Wellington robbed it of a truly unique selling point. To my knowledge there's no officially sanctioned representation of RAF Bomber Command in any currently available sim.

There are of course many varying reasons for this, but one of the strongest I feel is the lack of individual excitement and reward to a pilot of a bomber for the long and by-and-large uneventful sorties they carried out. Why should a player devote such time and effort when then main reward, survival, has such little meaning in a game? With CoD however, this could change. The type of control mission-designers will have over their work - as shown with the much debated 'renegade' and 'romance' aspects of the stock RAF single-player campaign - might finally allow for the feeling of fellowship not only with one's own crew, but also one's own squadron. This will, if done well, create a compelling driver for a campaign out of the very things that have previously counted against bomber missions: helplessness in the face of attack, and satisfaction from a job well done in the face of adversity.

I realise that this comes dangerously close to adding RPG-esque elements to a combat flight situation which will not go down universally well; and also that there are solid reasons why OM, if not Ubi, wouldn't have wanted to go down this route. However, imagine what Oleg could have done if the decision had been made to focus not on the Fighter Boys, but solely on the bombing campaigns fought by both sides: just the kind of awareness-raising that he brought to the flight sim community with the Eastern Front in Il-2. Not giving us what we may initially want, but giving us an education such that we've been coming back for ten years - what more could be asked for from CoD?

And so I humbly suggest that Mr Maddox and co. might consider making the Wimpy (not that I'd turn down and Hampden or Whitley!) flyable and using it to truly show off the 'personal' aspects of campaign building that has been introduced to CoD. It would be something truly unique to the sim (so far it seems largely 'the same but better' to likes of BoB2, and Il2:1946 in capabilities); it would almost certainly be more powerful and met with more support than similar attempts to personalise a fighter campaign (which are by their very nature individualistic and liberating for the pilot - having another's personality or mis-adventures forced upon one in-game runs a serious risk of detracting rather than adding to the immersion of a moment, a mission, a campaign); it'd be bloody good entertainment (forgive me, but for all the value placed by myself and many others in the veracity of this sim at every level, this is the reason why we all fly and are all looking forward to CoD).

Well...those are my thoughts on something that could perhaps be profitably brought to an early patch of the game - what are yours?

All the best,

Screwy

[Les]

Like so many things that are mentioned here in these forums, the bomber aspect of...what's it called, not 'Cliffs Of Dover'. The new series that will incorporate 'CloDo'. Oh, that's right, 'IL-2 Sturmovik' :)...the bomber aspect of TNS (The New Series) is still an unknown element. The only thing I can remember being mentioned in relation to bombers in particular is that the player will be able to communicate and interact with the crew more effectively.

So, what I'm trying to say is, asking for more bombers in CloDo when we don't even know what that really 'means', sort of takes the edge off the request.

Having said that, I agree that the bomber aspect of the new game seems to have been down-played so far. Which immediately makes me think it might be related to the technical limits on how many bombers can be generated in-game without killing frame-rates. But that's another issue, and one can't really assume too much along those lines, as the details about bombers are just part of a whole range of things we don't know about the new series yet.

About their inclusion though, what I immediately thought of after reading your post was, fully-fledged add-on, not patch. I'd buy a quality add-on that was nothing but a bomber or two with some single missions or campaigns. And I think that's pretty much what it would have to be in order to do the thing justice.

And I agree there's potentially a lot more that could be done to make the player feel more attached to their AI squad-mates or fellow crew-members than has been done in the past. I think though, that will have a lot to do with just how 'intelligent' (or at least controllable) the AI in the new series are. I can remember trying to play IL-2 with a high priority on keeping my fellow AI pilots alive but it was just too frustrating having to deal with their stupid behaviour, so I gave up for the most part.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. Wait and see. Yes there's potential for bombing missions and campaigns to become much more immersive and engaging. And quite frankly, @#$% anyone who tries to limit the options when it comes to opening the sim up to a wider audience through new ways of using it. As long as the core elements are kept to a high standard of realism and made available to all, what people then choose to do with them should be up to them. I hope Oleg or someone else does choose to fill in some of the more obscure details of airwarfare history, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Tempest123]

I hope too that in the future we can see more immersive campaigns in CloDo (thats a good one!). I remember particularly Red baron 2 feeling more connected to the virtual world than in Il2. If my rank allowed, I could pick pilots that I liked to join patrols, and request transfers to other squads/transfer pilots etc. (Now mind you my wingmates also never all crashed into the ground one by one behind me when I landed ala Il2, lol). There was always a chance to escape from enemy lines even if you where captured. And if the crews in bombers where a little more personal, I'm not saying you need a full blown character and personality animation, but at least a reliable (and visible!) crew that will help you, and has varying levels of skill that can be affected by training/wounds etc.

[IceFire]

If we go to North Africa after Battle of Britain then I hope that the Wellington would be considered for a possible flyable.

The one plane that has been forgotten here is the Blenheim. A mediocre but key bomber aircraft for the RAF during the Battle of Britain and during the North Africa campaigns. It will be fully flyable according to everything we know about IL-2 Cliffs of Dover.

So Bomber Command has it's first representation. I hope and doubt it's the last.

[KG26_Alpha]

Also the Maryland for North Africa :)

On a side note regarding bombers........

There needs to be a different approach from the old IL2 series although it was called IL2 it ended up as mainly dogfighting sim.

The fact it took years to get flyable multi engined bombers into the series shows the "thinking from Oleg 1C team at the time back then.

This seems to have carried over into CoD as there's again more emphasis on "fighters" with little info on what the targeting and ground damage systems there are in place in the FMB
and if level bombing targets actually means something for mud movers and the like instead of having to "seed" factories and buildings with cars or fuel trucks to give the bombers some actual satisfaction
in hitting their target.

I hope it is not going to be like IL2 started out and we have to wait for a decent approach to those that use level bombing/bombers and they have a decent target system in place.

Would be nice to see the scoring system for CoD and the FMB application for setting ground targets.

Just ............. A Thought

[el0375]

thanks for all 1C! i also will apreciate a mediterranean - N. Africa campaign

[Sven]

I completely agree with Screwball and Alpha!

[Screwball]

Sorry Les et al. - I didn't mean this to sound like, or become, a request as such. Merely a thought of what might showcase some of the new campaign features in CloDo (it's a keeper!), amongst other things, in the most effective way possible. It simply struck me that having a dedicated depiction of RAF bomber operations would be a first for a combat flight simulation, and thus show a unique aspect of the game to a tight market.

True, there's the Blenheim - but I don't feel that it offers the same opportunities as a Wellington could either in game or on the shelves for a variety of reasons, which I'm sure you can all come to without my help! Anyway, not a request at all, just a suggestion for an add-on/patch that I thought might bring more to the table than it would cost to get it there. Tried to make a small change from the "Gimme!" brigade :)

All the best,

Screwy

[Cap'n Crunch]

Odds are in the long run we'll get what you wish for, can't imagine them skimping out on the bombers, they are crucial to commercial success in a BOB based game. Might have to fall for a Heinkel or Ju-88 for a while to stay in shape though.