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LoBiSoMeM
02-14-2011, 02:58 PM
Just vote and let's see the results. No discussion, just some info.

swiss
02-14-2011, 03:13 PM
You forgot the I don't care option - which applies to all of the current TIR users.

LoBiSoMeM
02-14-2011, 04:24 PM
You forgot the I don't care option - which applies to all of the current TIR users.

I know a lot of TIR users that will like to have Freetrack interface integrated in IL-2:CoD. Some of them are in my squadron. In my squadron we have TIR users, Freetrack users and even people that hate HT devices and have headaches when using it. But all like to have options.

If you don't care, just don't vote. The option is available.

swiss
02-14-2011, 04:44 PM
If you don't care, just don't vote. The option is available.

I didn't post to piss you off.
The question is: what is your goal with the poll.
I would think it's to sense a trend or the needs of customers, for that your two options are not enough.
Unless, of course you just want to proof your pov.

I think I'll vote against it, although I really love my FT setup. :grin:

LoBiSoMeM
02-14-2011, 04:48 PM
I didn't post to piss you off.
The question is: what is your goal with the poll.
I would think it's to sense a trend or the needs of customers, for that your two options are not enough.
Unless, of course you just want to proof your pov.

I think I'll vote against it, although I really love my FT setup. :grin:

My point is simple: see how many FT users will like to see it into IL-2:CoD, and how much people don't want, hate, whatever feeling they have against FT and have concerns about it make into IL-2:CoD.

If you are not mature enough to undestand that, you are one of the 3 people that vote against. Congrats! It's an opinion too! :cool:

Royraiden
02-14-2011, 06:15 PM
I would like to know how many of those who voted against freetrack support are TrackIR users.

swiss
02-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Atm I can tell you 33% have both. ;)

Royraiden
02-14-2011, 06:41 PM
Atm I can tell you 33% have both. ;)

Based on what?There was another poll before?

albx
02-14-2011, 07:29 PM
Based on what?There was another poll before?

I suppose that when Swiss voted they where 3 votes against, Swiss have both FT and TIR so 33% is refered about itself, right? :cool:

robtek
02-14-2011, 08:34 PM
This poll is so pointless....

Nobody can be against a improvement, except "sad sacks" maybe.

julian265
02-14-2011, 09:47 PM
I'd prefer access to the six head control axes (like DCS:A-10C gives), rather than anything 'special' for FT. No vote from me.

Wolf_Rider
02-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Swiss is right, there is no "don't care option". There aren't any options for any other tracker though, only a single selection.

poll could have used more thought

LoBiSoMeM
02-15-2011, 12:02 AM
Swiss is right, there is no "don't care option". There aren't any options for any other tracker though, only a single selection.

poll could have used more thought

And because of that, you voted no.

Please, do a favor to yourself and get a life. This poll is just about FT interface. I like to see FT interface, TIR interface, direct acess to axes... And I'm not a moron that will vote "no" even in one TIR interface poll.

Some people here are pathetic, sorry to say.

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 12:28 AM
I like to see FT interface, TIR interface, direct acess to axes...



that would have been better to put up a poll around, eh

something like:
headtracker access through hacks?
headtracker access without hacks?
don't care either way?

swiss
02-15-2011, 12:45 AM
And because of that, you voted no.

Please, do a favor to yourself and get a life. This poll is just about FT interface. I like to see FT interface, TIR interface, direct acess to axes... And I'm not a moron that will vote "no" even in one TIR interface poll.

Some people here are pathetic, sorry to say.

You should find yourself a job in marketing, maybe as a specialist for surveys.
It's funny you actually try to force the result you seek for.


Just in case there was a misunderstanding, let me present an example:
Basis: 100 people

- 30 of them want FT included (for whatever reason)
- 10 don't (see above)
- 60 don't care

Now you got scientific proof the majority doesn't care / doesn't want it to be included.
But this result wouldn't serve your purpose, instead you prefer to just cut out the "30 vs 10" to proof your point.
How cunning! :grin:

MadBlaster
02-15-2011, 01:12 AM
You should find yourself a job in marketing, maybe as a specialist for surveys.
It's funny you actually try to force the result you seek for.


Just in case there was a misunderstanding, let me present an example:
Basis: 100 people

- 30 of them want FT included (for whatever reason)
- 10 don't (see above)
- 60 don't care

Now you got scientific proof the majority doesn't care / doesn't want it to be included.
But this result wouldn't serve your purpose, instead you prefer to just cut out the "30 vs 10" to proof your point.
How cunning! :grin:

Your forgeting the other side of the ledger there buddy. Actually, 90 people want it or don't care and only 10 sad sacks don't. Clearly a larger majority than you first thought! But it is your example.:)

ElAurens
02-15-2011, 01:16 AM
An old axiom:

Figures lie and liars figure.

Personally I don't care.

Far more important things to worry about, but you gents please continue your slagging match as it is a wonderful way to boost post counts.


+1

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 01:20 AM
Actually, 90 people want it or don't care and only 10 sad sacks don't. Clearly a larger majority than you first thought! But it is your example. :)




its a rigged poll Blaster, which proves the last two points made

zakkandrachoff
02-15-2011, 01:23 AM
info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeTrack

MadBlaster
02-15-2011, 01:30 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeTrack

Solidarity brother!!!

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 01:34 AM
hooking up through mouse look, looks promising

Blackdog_kt
02-15-2011, 03:11 AM
Let's not turn this into another slagging match. I voted yes but not because Freetrack is perfect, just for the sake of extra options.

A better poll would be asking "do you want support for alternative headtracking methods in CoD through a generic 6 axis interface?", but that's just my personal opinion ;)

White Owl
02-15-2011, 04:42 AM
Who but freetrack users - or potential freetrack users - would even have an opinion about this?

This is like making a poll in this forum about whether the gaming industry should make more combat flight sims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

WTE_Galway
02-15-2011, 04:51 AM
I voted no because freetrack users are too pushy and fanatical :D

They also tend to be smug and superior about how they built it themselves.

vicinity
02-15-2011, 05:08 AM
I voted yes because monopolies are bad.

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 05:16 AM
there is no monopoly though... that's a fallacy to think there is.

Pacific Fighters had people hooking up webcams through Cachya to Mouse Look, same with Flaming Cliffs (iirc)

vicinity
02-15-2011, 05:34 AM
Hardly the same thing, I mean I could set up FT to use mouselook but it will never be as good as native support. In games such as this FT support should be a given as it has a relatively large userbase, it would be relatively easy to include it and best of all it won't cost the developer anything (other than a little time of course).

I'm not saying they should have it in at launch or anything, i'm sure there are many other things to work on but they could do what Boheimean Interactive did and patch it in at some point. I can't really see why anyone here is against it. Choice is always a good thing.

norulz
02-15-2011, 06:03 AM
there is no monopoly though... that's a fallacy to think there is.

Pacific Fighters had people hooking up webcams through Cachya to Mouse Look, same with Flaming Cliffs (iirc)

Sure... but, if CoD has the same strategy as DCS A10c 64Bit then we FT users should give you some address where you could send us some beers.

I voted no because freetrack users are too pushy and fanatical :D

They also tend to be smug and superior about how they built it themselves.

Yeah... That's the spirit! But maybe... just maybe... they are a bit more superior by being able to do their own beer. Sure is frustrating for you... but you can always brag about the great label yours has... :grin:

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 07:59 AM
Hardly the same thing, I mean I could set up FT to use mouselook but it will never be as good as native support.



mouse look is native, vicinity ;)




Choice is always a good thing.



I agree with you there... it is a good thing

vicinity
02-15-2011, 09:18 AM
I was talking about native Freetrack support, as in using their api to achieve 6DOF.

I have just read the whole other Free track thread. You should look up the definition of monopoly. Natural Point definately HAS one, and it's understandable why, given that it's a market they created.

Oh and so this doesn't turn into another FT vs. NP argument I am currently a FT user though I do intend at some point in the future to pick up a TIR. Both have their advantages and disadvantages but like I say support for both is good for everyone. :)

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 09:28 AM
by the sounds of it, you already have the TIR software though ;)

vicinity
02-15-2011, 09:36 AM
Actually yes, I do - and no, i'm not taking about some dll file that came with freetrack. I downloaded it from the NP website to see how it compared. There was no awesome skull which obviously means freetrack is better. ;)

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 09:37 AM
primary colours and shiny things, eh? ;)

Immermann
02-15-2011, 10:21 AM
I have a TIR, but I don't mind if there's support for Freetrak. I mean, why should I?

W32Blaster
02-15-2011, 10:51 AM
You forgot the I don't care option - which applies to all of the current TIR users.

I´m TIR user and I do care!
TIR is only one kind of a headtracker. If there is a cheaper but also working solution it makes sense to provide an access to it.

The immersion is much hígher while playing with a headtracking device. With more player gaining benefit from it the more stable the community will be.

Plus your point just sounds a little selfish. :cool:

DD_crash
02-15-2011, 11:33 AM
TrackIR owner here, BUT I voted for FT to be inluded. I mean why not????

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 11:59 AM
I don't see that FT, or any other headtracking, shouldn't be included in principle... the sticking point is the files FT and some other headtracking needs to use.

I don't believe Swiss made a selfish point there, W32Blaster. Swiss, and others, did however point out the shortcomings in the way the poll was set up, which perhaps may be being read out of context. In any case, the poll forces a for or against, which doesn't really reflect what the poll should be all about.

Of course headtracking offers much higher immersion levels, there's no doubt about that though the community seems to be unstable/ split basically over what appears by some, on what they feel should be the right to hack software, and to others the right to have software protected.

Blackdog_kt
02-15-2011, 01:17 PM
W-R, let's not regurgitate the other thread here. You know, the one where we reached a consensus that if more games offer native support for alternative head trackers in the form of a generic 6-axis interface, then the alternative trackers won't need to use "hacked" naturalpoint dll files.

This poll might be wrongly worded in that it only mentions freetrack, but please let's all use it as an indication for the community's wish to include support for alternative head tracking in general, instead of as a stepping stone to sidetrack the discussion into what constitutes hacking.

This poll should be about extra options, it shouldn't be about "freetrack rules/sucks" or "are you a hacker?yes/no".

swiss
02-15-2011, 02:17 PM
I´m TIR user and I do care!
TIR is only one kind of a headtracker. If there is a cheaper but also working solution it makes sense to provide an access to it.

The immersion is much hígher while playing with a headtracking device. With more player gaining benefit from it the more stable the community will be.

Plus your point just sounds a little selfish. :cool:

See, the fine thing about democracies is: People can have different views.


How could anyone be against something the get for free?*
(I don't care about the piracy thing, I'm guilty of that myself)
I was forced into the "no" answer - the whole thing is so rigged I refuse to help him prove his point. Whenever I feel one comes up with the wrong arguments I switch sides, which often results in finding myself fighting on the side of the enemy. Sometimes confusing - but always great fun.

Also:
If OM made a deal with NP and got desperately needed cash for it - great.

*Unfortunately, there is no such thing as free lunch.
Well, in the IL2 community maybe - then again I think this is wrong too.
We get all this updates and mods for free; UP, 4.xx, you name it - yet the servers are struggling for survival because the (majority of the)community is to greedy to donate once in while.
What kind of "community" is that supposed to be?

MadBlaster
02-15-2011, 04:11 PM
See, the fine thing about democracies is: People can have different views.


How could anyone be against something the get for free?*
(I don't care about the piracy thing, I'm guilty of that myself)
I was forced into the "no" answer - the whole thing is so rigged I refuse to help him prove his point. Whenever I feel one comes up with the wrong arguments I switch sides, which often results in finding myself fighting on the side of the enemy. Sometimes confusing - but always great fun.

Also:
If OM made a deal with NP and got desperately needed cash for it - great.

*Unfortunately, there is no such thing as free lunch.
Well, in the IL2 community maybe - then again I think this is wrong too.
We get all this updates and mods for free; UP, 4.xx, you name it - yet the servers are struggling for survival because the (majority of the)community is to greedy to donate once in while.
What kind of "community" is that supposed to be?

Sir, given Switzerland's long history of neutrality and your line of reasoning, I put forth the propostion that you should withhold your vote on this matter. Just something to consider. Good day. ;)

swiss
02-15-2011, 04:35 PM
you should withhold your vote on this matter.

Something the swiss are not accustomed to - in single year we have to vote
more often than the average citizen of any other democracy in his whole life.
:cool:

Btw: We have also a history of selling our sons as mercenaries to whomever pays most. Often this led to swiss fighting against each other for some foreign power.

MadBlaster
02-15-2011, 04:42 PM
Well, every poll has its random element and every poll can be spun. Personally, I think removing the portion of the population that has "no opinion" on the matter reduces the likelihood of the poll being spun. However, everyone has their own opinion and should vote (or not vote) accordingly. Carry on mercenary Swiss.:-)

swiss
02-15-2011, 05:00 PM
Well, every poll has its random element and every poll can be spun. Personally, I think removing the portion of the population that has "no opinion" on the matter reduces the likelihood of the poll being spun.

Come on, with this poll lobi tried to create an argument to convince the devs a FT interface is absolutely necessary because it's the wish of the majority of this community.
Interesting idea, but it's just not gonna work with a two options only, love/hate poll.
Why should I play along such a sorry game?
It's much more fun to take the job of the party pooper.

Robotic Pope
02-15-2011, 05:36 PM
What a dumb poll. You might as well have made a poll like this:
Do you want everyone to be happy? (are you good?)
Do you want some people to be unhappy? (are you evil?)

A better poll would have been:

Given the choise, which head tracking system do you intend on using for CoD?

You would get much better results that way.

MadBlaster
02-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Come on, with this poll lobi tried to create an argument to convince the devs a FT interface is absolutely necessary because it's the wish of the majority of this community.
Interesting idea, but it's just not gonna work with a two options only, love/hate poll.
Why should I play along such a sorry game?
It's much more fun to take the job of the party pooper.

The poll is what it is. I see nothing devious in it's intent. Granted, it is not scientific. It is simply another way to communicate to 1C Company that there is a desire by a segment of the CoD market to have Freetrack functionality included in the game. That's all it is! Nothing about majority/minority or it being "absolutely necessary". Fact is, purchasing decisions are driven by these types of things. I think it is reasonable to assume that some of us won't buy CoD if we can't use Freetrack. This poll is an effort to try and avoid that reality. Fact is, I'm not going to go back to flying with a mouse after the hassle of learning to fly using headtracking and I'm not going to buy TrakIR when I have Freetrack system that works just fine for me. I don't even use 6DoF when it is available. I don't like jerking my head back and forth like an ostrich. I use a zoom script for that.

JAMF
02-15-2011, 06:14 PM
TrackIR owner myself. I voted for supporting/allowing other available head tracking methods. It gives the players with low cashflow a way to enjoy the game on the same level. It also creates a more level playing field. It would also takes away complaints that people who can afford the gadgets, that increase the enjoyment and the immersion, are cheating.

Blackdog_kt
02-15-2011, 06:41 PM
TrackIR owner myself. I voted for supporting/allowing other available head tracking methods. It gives the players with low cashflow a way to enjoy the game on the same level. It also creates a more level playing field. It would also takes away complaints that people who can afford the gadgets, that increase the enjoyment and the immersion, are cheating.

That's exactly the way i feel as well.

LoBiSoMeM
02-15-2011, 07:38 PM
That's exactly the way i feel as well.

Same here.

santobr
02-15-2011, 09:08 PM
I hate monopolies, even if I will not use any king of headtracking.
TrackIR (3, 4 & 5), TrackIR 1 & 2, Freetrack, NewView, GlovePIE, hat switch, mouse, keyboard and so on, please. ;)


santobr.

Wolf_Rider
02-15-2011, 10:24 PM
W-R, let's not regurgitate the other thread here. You know, the one where we reached a consensus that if more games offer native support for alternative head trackers in the form of a generic 6-axis interface, then the alternative trackers won't need to use "hacked" naturalpoint dll files.



Mate, you just said exactly the same I did in the post you're referring to, though I don't know you extrapolated the "are you a hacker, yes/ no?" from it.

Yes, the poll is poorly worded and there is as clear a consensus on that as there is on games supporting alternative headtracking to TrackIR. There's no mistaking it.
As well, a community instability/ split was pointed out... yes, there is that and what the crux of that instability/ split is, was pointed out.
Let's be clear about it, that is what what the instability/ split is , isn't it... the right to hack or protect, yes?


"All truth passes through three stages...
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

- Arthur Schopenhauer

Schopenhauer, an early 1800's philospher, in an essay on rhetoric, wrote:

"A last trick is to become personal, insulting, rude, as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, and that you are going to come off worst. It consists in passing from the subject of dispute, as from a lost game, to the disputant himself, and in some way attacking his person.... But in becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack to his person, by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character."


*Edit

The poll as it is, forces a yes/ no response for one product and the results of which would be used more than likely mischieviously to prove a point of view, if only taken as such. At least the comments contained here reflect at least the voter's intention for their vote,.

Sokol1
02-16-2011, 01:43 AM
I have a TrackIR4 - cost me ~U$ 270,00! Vote for CoD support for Freetrack and others HeadTrack alternatives too.

Sokol1

swiss
02-16-2011, 02:15 AM
$270? Holy cow - when was that?

Ernst
02-16-2011, 01:04 PM
$270? Holy cow - when was that?

This because TIR is not worldwide distributed and he had to import it or buy from someone who imported, paying international mail and more taxes to the government. More the gain of the one who imported if they adquired this way. Here we pay 60% (for imported procuts, except printed material (books, magazines etc), this case 0%) over the product and over the shiping expenses. This is ~ $270. This is called "Zil Zil Zil Zil cost".


P.S.: If Oleg distribute CoD worldwide via download we ll not pay 60% over it, only ~ 3% over the credit card bill. This is the tax over the money going outside the country.

Wolf_Rider
02-16-2011, 02:26 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what country is this you mean?






*Edit



$270? Holy cow - when was that?



That's around what they (TIR4 Pro) were down here in OZ (iirc) when they first came out. They go for around AUD/US$150 now. TIR5 can be imported to OZ direct from NP for approximately AUD/US$224 and can be found locally from between AUD/US$220 ~ 350, depending on outlet and if it is the Pro or clip version and includes tax. One thing OZ does as far as overseas buying goes (and duty free) is there is AUD/US$1,000 threshold before tax kicks in. That puts the buyer into possible Grey Market and is a can of worms in itself. Shipping method though can wipeout any tax savings.

ElAurens
02-16-2011, 05:29 PM
Sounds like Brazil.

One of the Pigs is from there and getting any good sim gear is a real challenge.

Wolf_Rider
02-16-2011, 06:20 PM
Thanks for that... yeah 60% import duty + another 18% on top.
The 3% isn't tax though, it's what the Credit Card company charges the vendor for using the system, it is world wide that one.

LoBiSoMeM
02-17-2011, 11:27 AM
83.95% votes for Freetrack suport by now...

Maybe it's mean something.

GloDark7
02-17-2011, 11:36 AM
Freetrack support definitely!

Many sim enthusiasts are very creative with their set-ups, often building parts and constructing their own pits with varying levels of complexity. Freetrack can slot into these builds very nicely.

Dissect a webcam (IR filter removal), construct your tracking points with IR LEDS or a mounted IR light source with reflective tracking and you have something that is absolutely on a par with TrackIR with full 6DOF. The reward is you constructed it yourself, it cost very little and it works perfectly.

I have used Freetrack in IL-2, worked great. I currently use it in WoP and it is implemented perfectly.

Glo

[URU]BlackFox
02-17-2011, 12:29 PM
I have been using FreeTrack for a long time now and works like a charm. I didn't have to remove the IR filter on my cam either, i just close the blinds and use bright LEDs. It would really be a bad thing not to have support for it in CoD.

Wolf_Rider
02-17-2011, 04:12 PM
83.95% votes for Freetrack suport by now...

Maybe it's mean something.

LIke some mentioned earlier... disengenious use of a poll ;)

LoBiSoMeM
02-17-2011, 07:02 PM
LIke some mentioned earlier... disengenious use of a poll ;)

84.52%... If you dislike it, create an ingenious poll yourself.

GloDark7
02-17-2011, 07:16 PM
There is no "I don't care option"?

There is no "I don't vote in polls" option

If people didn't care why would they vote or even take part in a discussion about it? :confused:

LoBiSoMeM
02-17-2011, 07:18 PM
There is no "I don't care option"?
There is no "I don't vote in polls" option

If people care why would they vote or even take part in a discussion about it? :confused:

No need at all. This poll is just to see who will like to have Freetrack Suport (majority users of Freetrack) and people who work for NP or don't understand a line about how Freetrack works and the marketing policies of NP.

Simple!

Il2Pongo
02-17-2011, 07:32 PM
How many people want to have the devs spend effort on Free Track support instead of putting that same effort into a dynamic campaign.

Or dynamic weather
Or a malta add on
Or the Channel front add on
Or any other thing that really matters.
Not that this doesn't matter, but what does it matter more then? That is the issue.

MadBlaster
02-17-2011, 07:37 PM
How many people want to have the devs spend effort on Free Track support instead of putting that same effort into a dynamic campaign.

Or dynamic weather
Or a malta add on
Or the Channel front add on
Or any other thing that really matters.
Not that this doesn't matter, but what does it matter more then? That is the issue.

I bet Ubisoft would love to have you work in their marketing department.:-P

Ernst
02-17-2011, 08:45 PM
Lobisomem i understand your point of view, i am favourable to free track support and voted the same way. But you need to be polite and political or people ll be angry and ll vote contrary to you. If you want your requests respected you need to be respectfull and use good arguments, not verbal violence.

If some people are not intelectually honest or acting by interest leave them so, just defend your view and not use "ad hominem" arguments. Try to put things in a constructive way, ever.

LoBiSoMeM
02-17-2011, 11:28 PM
Lobisomem i understand your point of view, i am favourable to free track support and voted the same way. But you need to be polite and political or people ll be angry and ll vote contrary to you. If you want your requests respected you need to be respectfull and use good arguments, not verbal violence.

If some people are not intelectually honest or acting by interest leave them so, just defend your view and not use "ad hominem" arguments. Try to put things in a constructive way, ever.

If I flood this forum with polite and logical arguments the same will happen: no dev can even post a word about that, and the NP faketrollguys will write the same old lies and nonsense.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to "raise this cause" in a "polite" manner: devs can't even discuss the subject, it's pathetic!

What is sad is that some people "don't care" and "don't bother" with this kind of thing. That's too much stupidity for me...

What a world...

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 01:19 AM
if FT operated in an honest clean manner, you'd find arguing your part a lot easier

swiss
02-18-2011, 01:26 AM
If I flood this forum with polite and logical arguments the same will happen: no dev can even post a word about that, and the NP faketrollguys will write the same old lies and nonsense.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to "raise this cause" in a "polite" manner: devs can't even discuss the subject, it's pathetic!


Now it's the "NP Troll's" fault you don't get a reply from Luthier?
Take a deeeeeeeeep breath.



What is sad is that some people "don't care" and "don't bother" with this kind of thing. That's too much stupidity for me...
What a world...

Well, to be honest I don't care about people dying in Afrika either.
Sure, I would be better if they didn't - but I don't even think about them.

I do care about whales 'tho - funny, isn't it?

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 02:20 AM
Lobi...
you use the "FreeTrack Route" huh?

here's a thought, which may help your cause... could you (or anyone else) put up a shot of the FT software page that show's how the "Freetrack route" or for that matter, the "simconnect route" is selected?

*Edit (also indicating which software version)

MadBlaster
02-18-2011, 02:42 AM
Lobi...
you use the "FreeTrack Route" huh?

here's a thought, which may help your cause... could you (or anyone else) put up a shot of the FT software page that show's how the "Freetrack route" or for that matter, the "simconnect route" is selected?

*Edit (also indicating which software version)

http://i54.tinypic.com/1e031w.jpg

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 02:52 AM
no Simconnect selection, Blaster?

julian265
02-18-2011, 03:08 AM
if FT operated in an honest clean manner, you'd find arguing your part a lot easier

Probably true regarding FT. But why the absolute silence about allowing ANY controller (stick etc) to control the head axes?

julian265
02-18-2011, 03:13 AM
Interfaces available - also key output on next tab.

Latest version, 2.2.0.279

PPJoy becomes available when you have it installed. It is my preferred method, but I'm on a different computer so it's greyed out.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:17 AM
At least by the silence, there is no way they can be subject to abuse?




*Edit



Interfaces available - also key output on next tab.

Latest version, 2.2.0.279

PPJoy becomes available when you have it installed. It is my preferred method, but I'm on a different computer so it's greyed out.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4677&d=1297998779




what is the TrackIR Interface tick box for, what's the file listed on the same line... and why was Blaster hiding it?

WTE_Galway
02-18-2011, 03:29 AM
I vote for using XBOX 360 Kinect instead :D

... or maybe a Wii mote.

julian265
02-18-2011, 03:33 AM
At least by the silence, there is no way they can be subject to abuse?Rubbish. They'll cop more flak for not doing the logical thing and allowing access to the head control axes.

what is the TrackIR Interface tick box for, what's the file listed on the same line...
You know perfectly well what it's for. Why you have to keep making the same point (amongst a bunch of other strange questions and straw-man arguments) that you don't like the way FT interfaces/uses/emulates NP software is beyond me.
Until game devs do the logical thing (apart from those who already have!) and allow head axes to be assigned to, like joystick axes, I just don't care how head pose is communicated.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:38 AM
@ Galway

I'd wait for the VR helmet... screen resolution on touchphones, etc are really good now, so it shouldn't long.

VR Helmet with a wrap around curved high res screen, incorporated speakers and mic. and best of all - offering proper peripheral vision... yum!. Set the zero reference and hit the virtual skies in full real full real. :)



*Edit



Rubbish. They'll cop more flak for not doing the logical thing and allowing access to the head control axes.



Why should they when it hack/ sponges off anothers' copyright and hard work? (I could explain "logical" to you, but I don't think you'll like it ;) ?)



You know perfectly well what it's for. Why you have to keep making the same point (amongst a bunch of other strange questions and straw-man arguments) that you don't like the way FT interfaces/uses/emulates NP software is beyond me.



See point above



Until game devs do the logical thing (apart from those who already have!) and allow head axes to be assigned to, like joystick axes, I just don't care how head pose is communicated.



Mouse Look (aka Freelook) is available, as you well know... and why should any legitimate developer entertain the incorporation of a product which attracts abuse and threats from its users, or deal with liars, or incorporate a program/s which has/ have questionable ongoing support?

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 03:46 AM
Freetrack has the CRAP TIR interface, the old one, because GAME DEVS DON'T USE FREETRACK INTERFACE IN ALL GAMES!

It's clear ENOUGH for you? And I go further: they don't use Freetrack interface, they dont give an OPEN 6DOF HT solution and EVEN CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT because of NP sick trying to keep a marketing that they clearly see will lose, because any decent today CPU and cheap webcam can provide very good HT experience.

NP can close, I don't care! I care about how I spend MY MONEY in a CPU, MY MONEY in a webcam, mount some led assembly and have all the hardware to have 6DOF HT.

But I need that the game devs put suport for the FREE Fretrack interface, that's have NOTHING TO DO WITH TIR INTERFACE into their games!

BIS devs made it! They have the GUTS to do that! If some company can't survive into market without all this FEAR of a small free software, that uses cheap webcams, its a CRAP company, I'm sorry to said.

It's pathetic... And people still talking nonsense about NP products, policies... They sell cheap IR webcams and mediocre software for HT based on IR detection, by God sake! It's TRIVIAL!!!

This community makes me a little sick. In BIS forums the suport for Freetrack was MASSIVE, even with NP trolls... Here, the community is weak, and maybe the sells prediced with IL-2:CoD made the devs trying to make some cash from "other" sources...

I don't give a crap anymore. If Oleg put Freetrack interface suport in IL-2:CoD, will be good. If not, maybe W-R have more "workarounds" to curse, because the Freetrack community is light years away form mediocre NP.

Simple as that! Bye!

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 03:50 AM
and why should any legitimate developer entertain the incorporation of a product which attracts abuse and threats from its users, or deal with liars, or incorporate a program which has questionable ongoing support?

Because the USERS of both Freetrack and the game in question demand?

Maybe you can ask to Bohemia Interactive these questions... Or you can't?

But maybe ArmAII and O:A don't have the same standards that IL-2:CoD will have... You can tell this to BIS too... They are a company who does "crap" military sims... LOL!

You talk a lot of crap. We can't be "polite", the "normal" path is a "moderator" close the topic without A WORD form devs.

Shame!

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:51 AM
but LoBi... we're told FT doesn't have access to NP anymore? Looks like porkies are being told

yes, LoBi, that why FSX FT users pass over the Simconnect in favour of the TIR hack.... because TIR is a crap product, huh?




*Edit

your second... Why should nyone listen to demands and threats??

has anyone actually made a polite and professional approach, with a supported product that doesn't call in questions of infringement?

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 03:56 AM
but LoBi... we're told FT doesn't have access to NP anymore? Looks like porkies are being told

yes, LoBi, that why FSX FT users pass over the Simconnect in favour of the TIR hack.... because TIR is a crap product, huh?

Talk about Bohemia Interactive, please... I'll like to hear!

I'm talking about Freetrack Interface, not SimConnect or TIR. I use Freetrack Interface in ArmAII and works like charm!

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 03:59 AM
Why should nyone listen to demands and threats??

has anyone actually made a polite and professional approach, with a supported product that doesn't call in questions of infringement?

Bohemia Interactive have problems now with "questions of infringement"?

Games devs should listen the demands of their consumers. It's good for the sales...

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:59 AM
how does it work.. the Ft interface in ArmAII? does it hook into Mouse Look?



*Edit

wrong Lobi... people will always listen to requests, demands tend to fall on deaf ears

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 04:10 AM
how does it work.. the Ft interface in ArmAII? does it hook into Mouse Look?

No, it hook into Freetrack Interface. You select the controler "Freetrack" into ArmAII or O:A and assign Freetrack axis as controls. Isn't "Mouse Look".

And ArmAII is a "TrackIR Enhanced Game"... The world is strange... Please can you explain me?

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 04:19 AM
what is the magic bit though?

(I'll bring Julian's post up again later for other's to view)

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 04:25 AM
what is the magic bit though?

I don't know! Can you explain me, please, all these magical things?!?!?!?!

julian265
02-18-2011, 04:35 AM
Rubbish. They'll cop more flak for not doing the logical thing and allowing access to the head control axes.Why should they when it hack/ sponges off anothers' copyright and hard work? (I could explain "logical" to you, but I don't think you'll like it ;) ?)

Windows game controller axes do not need any NP software to interface with. Allowing anyone to control head axes with any game controller is absolutely not a hack, and absolutely not sponging of anyone's copyright or hard work:
1. Head control in games is under no-ones copyright (ie mouse/POV hat/whatever device moving the in-game head).
2. The method that windows game controllers use to interface with games is a Microsoft thing, nothing to do with NP.

I suppose you'll now tell me that the sky is red?

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 04:48 AM
we're not talking about Windows game controllers, Julian, the subject at hand is the inclusion of alternative headtrackers to the TIR


@Lobi

So, on top of the demands, intimidations and what are tantamount to outright lies concerning FT, you also don't understand how it works?

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 04:52 AM
we're not talking about game controllers, Julian, the subject at hand is the inclusion of alternative headtrackers to the TIR


@Lobi

So, on top of the demands, intimidations and what are tantamount to outright lies concerning FT, you also don't understand how it works?

1) HT devices aren't "controllers"... Well, for me all are input devices...

2) I know! I want that YOU start to talk about HOW YOU believe Freetrack works, and why it's totally OK into ArmAII!

Let´s go...

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 05:07 AM
@ loBi...
well, that's what I'm asking... does the FT hook into the mouselook? (to be clear, I see mouselook as a defacto generic interface, that's why I keep mentioning it ;) )

julian265
02-18-2011, 05:12 AM
we're not talking about Windows game controllers, Julian, the subject at hand is the inclusion of alternative headtrackers to the TIR

I don't care what you were talking about - if you quote a post and agree or disagree, then that is the subject at hand. And as the meaning of game devs "allowing access to the head control axes" is perfectly clear, it's obvious that you've used the straw-man argument trick again, disagreeing with a point that I never made.

It's not surprising that people don't use such a method face-to-face.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 05:20 AM
none of that, however, has anything to do with the subject at hand, Julian.
The subject at hand, is the inclusion of alternative headtrackers to TIR, is it not?

now... I believe we're waiting for Lobi to get back to us (I mean if you're going to push a product, it should be understood how it works ;) )

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 05:22 AM
@ loBi...
well, that's what I'm asking... does the FT hook into the mouselook? (to be clear, I see mouselook as a defacto generic interface, that's why I keep mentioning it ;) )

I use mouselook into ArmAII to move my gun and shoot at enemies. To look around in another direction, lean and zoom, I use Freetrack hooked into Freetrack Interface...

Do you have ArmAII and Freetrack installed in your computer, W-R? You can try here and see how it works!

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 05:27 AM
@ Lobi..
yes, you've said that before about the FT interface, but the bit I (for one) be curious about is; how does the interface interact with the ArmAII/ other game?

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 05:43 AM
@ Lobi..
yes, you've said that before about the FT interface, but the bit I (for one) be curious about is; how does the interface interact with the ArmAII/ other game?

Maybe it's hard to discover... Can I have some time?


/************************************************** **********************
* freetrack_c_interface.c
*
* A simple command line application which reads the data from FreeTrack
* using the FreeTrackClient.dll interface.
*
* Assumes that a copy of the FreeTrackClient.dll is in the same folder,
* thought this does not necessarily have to be the same folder as the
* FreeTrack application itself.
*
* Based on code from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic-link_library
*
* Alastair Moore, December 2007
*
************************************************** **********************/

//#include <iostream>
//#include <tchar.h>
#include <windows.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <conio.h>

typedef struct
{
float yaw;
float pitch;
float roll;
float x;
float y;
float z;
int dataID;
}FreeTrackData;

// DLL function signatures
// These match those given in FTTypes.pas
// WINAPI is macro for __stdcall defined somewhere in the depths of windows.h
typedef bool (WINAPI *importGetData)(FreeTrackData * data);
typedef char *(WINAPI *importGetDllVersion)(void);
typedef void (WINAPI *importReportID)(int name);
typedef char *(WINAPI *importProvider)(void);


int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
//declare imported function pointers
importGetData getData;
importGetDllVersion getDllVersion;
importReportID reportID;
importProvider provider;

// create variables for exchanging data with the dll
FreeTrackData data;
FreeTrackData *pData;
pData = &data;
char *pDllVersion;
int name = 453;
char *pProvider;


// Load DLL file
HINSTANCE hinstLib = LoadLibrary("FreeTrackClient.dll");
if (hinstLib == NULL) {
printf("ERROR: unable to load DLL\n");
return 1;
}
else
{
printf("dll loaded\n");
}

// Get function pointers
getData = (importGetData)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTGetData");
getDllVersion = (importGetDllVersion)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTGetDllVersion");
reportID = (importReportID)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTReportID");
provider = (importProvider)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTProvider");

// Check they are valid
if (getData == NULL) {
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTGetData' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (getDllVersion == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTGetDllVersion' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (reportID == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTReportID' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (reportID == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTProvider' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}

// Print the address of each function
printf("FTGetData is at address: 0x%x\n",getData);
printf("FTGetDllVersion is at address: 0x%x\n",getDllVersion);
printf("FTReportID is at address: 0x%x\n",reportID);
printf("FTProvider is at address: 0x%x\n",provider);

// Call each function and display result
pDllVersion = getDllVersion();
printf("Dll Version: %s\n", pDllVersion);

pProvider = provider();
printf("Provider: %s\n", pProvider);

reportID(name); //not sure what this does - I guess it tells the dll that I am using it.

system("pause"); //wait till keyboard is pressed before entering main loop
while( kbhit() != 1)
{
system("cls"); //clear screen
if (getData(pData))
{
printf("Record ID: %d\n" , data.dataID);
printf("Yaw: %5.2f\n" , data.yaw );
printf("Pitch: %5.2f\n" , data.pitch );
printf("Roll: %5.2f\n" , data.roll );
printf("X: %5.2f\n" , data.x );
printf("Y: %5.2f\n" , data.y );
printf("Z: %5.2f\n" , data.z );
}
else
{
printf("Nothing returned from getData\n");
break;
}
}

// Unload DLL file
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);

return 0;
}


Now, drop dead, please... When I said it's EASY to devs to put Freetrack suport, it's open, have SDK, I didn't think that Oleg will not have time to create a dynamic campain...

Get a life now, please! And I still waisting my time in all this nonsense...

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 06:04 AM
@LoBi...

That may or may not be what the interface itself is Lobi (it is also a copy/ paste from the FT site). Perhaps you could explain it to us? ... you know, put it into layman's terms?


I would suggest (based on your comments) that you don't use the FT Interface at all, LoBi

MadBlaster
02-18-2011, 06:35 AM
I'm not a programmer, but it looks like these are output variables for 6DoF:


if (getData(pData))
{
printf("Record ID: %d\n" , data.dataID);
printf("Yaw: %5.2f\n" , data.yaw );
printf("Pitch: %5.2f\n" , data.pitch );
printf("Roll: %5.2f\n" , data.roll );
printf("X: %5.2f\n" , data.x );
printf("Y: %5.2f\n" , data.y );
printf("Z: %5.2f\n" , data.z );
}
else
{
printf("Nothing returned from getData\n");
break;
}
}


Why can't CoD hook off that? I guess it is "C" language format.

Blackdog_kt
02-18-2011, 08:27 AM
Freetrack has the CRAP TIR interface, the old one, because GAME DEVS DON'T USE FREETRACK INTERFACE IN ALL GAMES!

It's clear ENOUGH for you? And I go further: they don't use Freetrack interface, they dont give an OPEN 6DOF HT solution and EVEN CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT because of NP sick trying to keep a marketing that they clearly see will lose, because any decent today CPU and cheap webcam can provide very good HT experience.

NP can close, I don't care! I care about how I spend MY MONEY in a CPU, MY MONEY in a webcam, mount some led assembly and have all the hardware to have 6DOF HT.

But I need that the game devs put suport for the FREE Fretrack interface, that's have NOTHING TO DO WITH TIR INTERFACE into their games!

BIS devs made it! They have the GUTS to do that! If some company can't survive into market without all this FEAR of a small free software, that uses cheap webcams, its a CRAP company, I'm sorry to said.

It's pathetic... And people still talking nonsense about NP products, policies... They sell cheap IR webcams and mediocre software for HT based on IR detection, by God sake! It's TRIVIAL!!!

This community makes me a little sick. In BIS forums the suport for Freetrack was MASSIVE, even with NP trolls... Here, the community is weak, and maybe the sells prediced with IL-2:CoD made the devs trying to make some cash from "other" sources...

I don't give a crap anymore. If Oleg put Freetrack interface suport in IL-2:CoD, will be good. If not, maybe W-R have more "workarounds" to curse, because the Freetrack community is light years away form mediocre NP.

Simple as that! Bye!

I support alternatives too, but just chill out already. You're doing more damage than good.

And no, i i don't want NP to close because i have tried both FT and trackIR and for me trackIR was smoother and better. If NP closes i'll be stuck with the alternative solutions, however if NP stays in business and has to compete with the open source/free trackers, it's better for everyone: you can use FT with native support, i can use NP because either they will make an even better trackIR or they will start selling cheaper to stay in business..

Sorry mate, but sometimes your one-dimensional arguments are just as bad as those used by the people you are screaming against.


On the other hand, W-R you are dragging this poll the way of the other thread. Please stick to debating how it works there, where we all tried multiple times to explain to you how it works and yet you either refuse to understand or we're having some massive communication breakdown along the way...see my latest post in the other thread where i try to explain it in layman's terms by comparing apples and bananas (yes, it's come to using such simplistic examples because we're apparently having a massive communication issue).

If you want a short explanation, it's this:

Windows game controller axes do not need any NP software to interface with. Allowing anyone to control head axes with any game controller is absolutely not a hack, and absolutely not sponging of anyone's copyright or hard work:
1. Head control in games is under no-ones copyright (ie mouse/POV hat/whatever device moving the in-game head).
2. The method that windows game controllers use to interface with games is a Microsoft thing, nothing to do with NP.

I suppose you'll now tell me that the sky is red?

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 09:27 AM
If you want to point the finger at someone else, Blackdog... take note of in which direction the other three fingers are pointing
Some just aren't falling for your sophistry and you could probably do well to err, chill out yourself.
Now, I asked a very simple question, which I thought may have helped their FT cause... too bad it didn't and did irrepairable damage instead, considering the calls made were FT no longer uses TIR.

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 09:48 AM
I'm not a programmer, but it looks like these are output variables for 6DoF:


if (getData(pData))
{
printf("Record ID: %d\n" , data.dataID);
printf("Yaw: %5.2f\n" , data.yaw );
printf("Pitch: %5.2f\n" , data.pitch );
printf("Roll: %5.2f\n" , data.roll );
printf("X: %5.2f\n" , data.x );
printf("Y: %5.2f\n" , data.y );
printf("Z: %5.2f\n" , data.z );
}
else
{
printf("Nothing returned from getData\n");
break;
}
}


Why can't CoD hook off that? I guess it is "C" language format.

Yes, it is... It's how an aplication can read data from FreeTrackClient.dll interface... It's how a game can read data from Freetrack, no rocket science.

I don't know what W-R likes to know now, really. But he is strange because he thinks that's some kind of "copy/paste from Freetrack site". No, it's in Freetrack SDK, a simple command line application to get data from FreeTrackClient.dll.

What's the big deal? I want that W-R put in "layman's terms" the issues with FreeTrackClient.dll route, please, because I and ArmAII both uses FreeTrackClient.dll to get data from Freetrack. I use Freetrack interface a lot.

But he's not falling into sophistry... We are! Please W-R, point the "irreparable damage" of using FreeTrackClient.dll to get data from Freetrack, please! BIS made "irreparable damage" using and documenting this "evil route" in ArmAII patch 1.05?!?!

"[60457] New: FreeTrack support using FreeTrackClient.dll"

Ohhhhh... BIS made "irreparable damage"... You don't need to be so dramatic... Relax a bit!

:cool:

MadBlaster
02-18-2011, 09:56 AM
Yes, after looking at that code. I really don't think he has any leg to stand on. It is completely independent. Maybe he is just a "bitter clinger" from the past. Wants to take out revenge on us Freetrack guys for some stupid reason.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 10:01 AM
I don't believe LoBi read a word you said, Blackdog ;) sad

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 10:06 AM
Yes, after looking at that code. I really don't think he has any leg to stand on. It is completely independent. Maybe he is just a "bitter clinger" from the past. Wants to take out revenge on us Freetrack guys for some stupid reason.

No, he will made finally a CLEAR statement about FreeTrackClient.dll, put lines of code that will prove the "evil way", the abusive NP hack...

And I will wait to see W-R NP guy destroying finally any argument used to make 1C use FreeTrackClient.dll as a manner to get 6DOF HT data and use it in IL-2:CoD!

After that, W-R will transform Bohemia Interactive, the major infidels, into ashes! They used FreeTrackClient.dll in ArmAII!!! Blasphemy!!!

:-)

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 10:07 AM
I don't believe LoBi read a word you said, Blackdog ;) sad

Oh no, he said nothing, as usual...

Funnier than ever! :-P

Now I believe the circus is over, everybody can see how a game can use FreeTrackClient.dll route to access 6DOF data from Freetrack, don't using any "hack" of NP copyrighted - or not - material.

Everybody now knows that BIS uses FreeTrackClient.dll without any trouble.

As I said: life is simple. Using FreeTrackClient.dll to have 6DOF data is really easily, 1C team can make it in one afternoon.

Now I'm tired to discuss this obvious subject. We have ENOUGH data to use ours brains and know the truth, we don't need "half" comments about "hacks" made by some NP troll. We have the facts, show how things work, all simple.

I'm off now. Do wathever you want, 1C. I'm tired to explain simple things.

norulz
02-18-2011, 10:16 AM
Pity this forum has no "ignore user" function... but you can do it by sheer will LoBiSoMeM :)

Maybe this week will have something about this issue... one can only hope.

Blackdog_kt
02-18-2011, 10:18 AM
If you want to point the finger at someone else, Blackdog... take note of in which direction the other three fingers are pointing
Some just aren't falling for your sophistry and you could probably do well to err, chill out yourself.
Now, I asked a very simple question, which I thought may have helped their FT cause... too bad it didn't and did irrepairable damage instead, considering the calls made were FT no longer uses TIR.

Ok, you like to keep hearing it, so i will oblige and since you like going philosophical about it, let's also touch a bit on how you structure your arguments.

On the technical side of things, FT doesn't use the TIR implementation to track the dots, it makes your computer think it uses NP code when it's not: it reads the movements with its own interface posted here in this threa, then it has to parse them into the game. If the game doesn't support alternative trackers a user can make the game think it's trackIR so it can parse the data.

It's as simple as can be really. It's not trackIR, your computer thinks it is.

I don't know why you keep making the jump from "my PC thinks this is X" to "it thinks this is X, so that makes it true".

You've been given complex explanations, simple explanations, calm replies, offensive replies, the whole nine yards, by a variety of posters. And since i don't think you're mentally incapable of grasping the meaning of what's been said, i'll chalk it up to grasping at straws in order to not accept the explanation. Sorry, you've left me no alternative here.


Also, another thing you keep bringing up is that whenever someone uses an analogy to illustrate a point, you will invariably go "we are not talking about joysticks/AGP ports/other peripherals, but about trackIR and webcams". Maybe because if we draw the parallels it would mean that just as your line of reason implies an associated license fee for using other hardware for a similar purpose (again, this is against US copyright law if the hardware is up to the job), it would also make it reasonable for microsoft to ask a fee from everyone who makes peripherals for windows systems, NP included.

Sorry, but you either apply the same standards to everyone or not at all. If FT or any other head-tracker must pay NP to do the same job with different hardware and software, then NP must also pay the guys who came up with a movable camera in a 3d cockpit in the first place. Isn't NP mooching off the idea of a 3d cockpit by taking the basic idea and adding their own stuff on top of it? Not from where i'm standing, but definitely so according to the way you present it. Like i said, double standards won't fly.

This is all a very simple argumentative tactic on your part really. No offence at all, i'm just calling them as i see them and you're entitled to use whatever trick in the book to push your opinion, that's the meaning of any discussion forum as long as we're civil to each other. Just be prepared to be called out on it if the tactic is completely see through ;)

Step 1: Strongly deny all kinds of explanation that back anything non-favorable to your point of view
Step 2: Since you are denying all explanation, you then make the silent, implied jump that there isn't one
Step 3: Ask for an expanation
Step 4: Go back to step 1 and repeat as necessary.

This creates tension, drives the moderate posters away, maybe even invites a mod to close the thread and generally makes the topic at hand a painful experience to discuss and debate. The objective is then accomplished: people don't want to talk about it or have it cluttering their boards, so the unfavorable opinion is nipped in the bud before it gains momentum. And you think i'm the one who's into sophistry :cool:

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 10:25 AM
Pity this forum has no "ignore user" function... but you can do it by sheer will LoBiSoMeM :)

Maybe this week will have something about this issue... one can only hope.

Ignore user function or Freetrack suport into IL-2:CoD?

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 10:26 AM
On the other hand, W-R you are dragging this poll the way of the other thread.




where are your other three fingers pointing, Blackdog?


also sport... explain this - 2nd check box down from the top



Interfaces available - also key output on next tab.

Latest version, 2.2.0.279

PPJoy becomes available when you have it installed. It is my preferred method, but I'm on a different computer so it's greyed out.


http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4677&d=1297998779

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 10:37 AM
also sport... explain this - 2nd check box down from the top

I explain clearly to you how the FIRST BOX DOWN FROM THE TOP works...

We just have the second because game devs don't suport the first one.

If you like to see the second one vanish, just suport the inclusion of Freetrack interface into new titles!

I'm tired of all this crap, really. That's the way NP do business...

MadBlaster
02-18-2011, 10:38 AM
No, he will made finally a CLEAR statement about FreeTrackClient.dll, put lines of code that will prove the "evil way", the abusive NP hack...

:-)


Yes, I suppose he can say that. All we have to say is , "Why didn't NP decompile the DLL and take it to court as evidence?" Since they haven't done that for all these years, then it is red herring argument he would make. I'm sure it is because NP doesn't want to break their own monopoly by risk losing in court.

I think all we can do is wait for the game to come out. I don't think 1C can talk about this at all because of the NDA. We probably should not bother them anymore. Hopefully they have heard us over these last few days. I think they will come through. Or even NP might secretly give us a patch to shut us up. ;)

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 10:42 AM
Yes, I suppose he can say that. All we have to say is , "Why didn't NP decompile the DLL and take it to court as evidence?" Since they haven't done that for all these years, then it is red herring argument he would make. I'm sure it is because NP doesn't want to break their own monopoly by risk losing in court.

I think all we can do is wait for the game to come out. I don't think 1C can talk about this at all because of the NDA. We probably should not bother them anymore. Hopefully they have heard us over these last few days. I think they will come through. Or even NP might secretly give us a patch to shut us up. ;)

Well, at least BIS have guts to stand to consumers side. I'm happy that one major gaming company put your consumers as priority, not some hardware company.

Let's wait and see. All the arguments for Freetrack interface are clear. Now it's into 1C hands to do the right thing. 83.33% for Freetrack.

MadBlaster
02-18-2011, 10:56 AM
Yep, this is I think my last post on this topic and maybe this board for a while.

But I want to say this. I've really enjoyed myself. It's been fun battling the Wolf-Rider and reading all the posts. Also, if I slammed you the wrong way, well don't worry about it. Nothing personal from my end. Just look at it as another dogfight.;)

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 11:08 AM
@ LoBi...

The only "all the facts are in" (edited out of your post) fact, is that FT is a hack tool

@ Blaster...

Just another dogfight? I hope you do better in the sim ;)



*Edit

@ Blackdog...

?

swiss
02-18-2011, 11:40 AM
i have tried both FT and trackIR and for me trackIR was smoother and better.

+1, and not just a bit.

Hooked up my TIR5 yesterday, and I must say, the product more than just surprised me.
I hate to say it, as I was really fond of my FT cap, but the TIR is just too damn sexy.

I felt perfectly comfortable from the the first second. They supply 3 default settings, one of them felt pretty close to my customized FT setup.

The major difference is: If you play around in the tir software you can achieve same results which previously took you upwards 2hrs in FT.
And it feels much, much more stable, not to mention the precision.
It really is an awesome product.
But then again, that's what I expect from a professional solution.

Conclusion:
I don't regret I went for FT first; I learned a great deal about leds and also improved my soldering skills, so it sure was fun.
If I had to decide again, however, I'm not sure if would go the same path a second time.
FT wasn't free either, and the hours I spent building and adjusting it is a midrange, two digit number.
Hint: If you go for TIR, try to find used one and please don't forget to ask the the seller for serial number, as TIR5 #152000-152914 are lemons.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 11:43 AM
That's a consistent appraisal common everywhere

swiss
02-18-2011, 11:46 AM
That's a consistent appraisal common everywhere

Yep. I never believed it though. ;)
(or didn't want to)

albx
02-18-2011, 12:37 PM
Can please explain me the 17 voters against including freetrack in CoD what have to do with TIR? is because they feel pissed off that somebody can use the same kind of device at a fraction of TiR cost? or what?

Blackdog_kt
02-18-2011, 01:02 PM
where are your other three fingers pointing, Blackdog?


also sport... explain this - 2nd check box down from the top

I already told you, numerous times in fact. Emulating/simulating an interface with different software and hardware doesn't equal using it, just like simulating northrop grumman aircraft in pacific fighters was not the same as building and selling real ones, but that didn't prevent NG from asking Oleg Maddox a ton of money to let him include them in the sim (something everyone agrees was stupid on NG's part).

You just can't or won't wrap your mind around it, so it's a clear waste of my time to have another go. Please don't take this the wrong way as i harbor no ill will against you just for having your opinion, but i have no interest whatsoever in convincing you personally. My interest was in advocating alternatives for the community, because some people obviously use them and this levels the playing field and creates more competition for me when flying online.

I honestly don't believe you are a NP "public relations/damage control" spokesperson who's getting paid to do this, you just have your opinion and i'm fine with that. That being said, you sure do have an axe to grind with FT, just like Lobi has an axe to grind with NP. I think you two are not that different even if you advocate opposing points, but all this "passion for the cause" just clouds your judgment and you both miss the bigger picture sometimes.

I don't care what it's called, i just want a generic head tracking interface as an alternative and guess what, i will still buy a new trackIR set when i scrape the cash together. I just won't have to fly blind in the meantime.

My aim in all of this was to make sure other opinions get some exposure too and we as a whole have more options to choose from, but all this polarization is sure making it harder to look at things in a level-headed way.

Nevertheless, even if people have issues with FT they still voted for it and the interpretation is clear: more and more of us want an alternative form of head tracking. That's regardless of the details and the feud between FT and NP.
We can all argue until we're blue in the face about how NP restricts competition or not, or how FT is a hack tool or isn't, but that doesn't change the meaning of the poll one bit. The cat's out of the bag in regards to CoD headtracking and that's all there is to it at the end of the day.

So, the next logical step is to ask the devs to include the function in a patch, or as part of the SDK that will be available after launch. I think it's time to wrap this one up and do just that, ask for the feature.

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 01:11 PM
I already told you, numerous times in fact. Emulating/simulating an interface with different software and hardware doesn't equal using it, just like simulating northrop grumman aircraft in pacific fighters was not the same as building and selling real ones, but that didn't prevent NG from asking Oleg Maddox a ton of money to let him include them in the sim (something everyone agrees was stupid on NG's part).

You just can't or won't wrap your mind around it, so it's a clear waste of my time to have another go. Please don't take this the wrong way as i harbor no ill will against you just for having your opinion, but i have no interest whatsoever in convincing you personally. My interest was in advocating alternatives for the community, because some people obviously use them and this levels the playing field and creates more competition for me when flying online.

I honestly don't believe you are a NP "public relations/damage control" spokesperson who's getting paid to do this, you just have your opinion and i'm fine with that. That being said, you sure do have an axe to grind with FT, just like Lobi has an axe to grind with NP. I think you two are not that different even if you advocate opposing points, but all this "passion for the cause" just clouds your judgment and you both miss the bigger picture sometimes.

I don't care what it's called, i just want a generic head tracking interface as an alternative and guess what, i will still buy a new trackIR set when i scrape the cash together. I just won't have to fly blind in the meantime.

My aim in all of this was to make sure other opinions get some exposure too and we as a whole have more options to choose from, but all this polarization is sure making it harder to look at things in a level-headed way.

Nevertheless, even if people have issues with FT they still voted for it and the interpretation is clear: more and more of us want an alternative form of head tracking. That's regardless of the details and the feud between FT and NP.
We can all argue until we're blue in the face about how NP restricts competition or not, or how FT is a hack tool or isn't, but that doesn't change the meaning of the poll one bit. The cat's out of the bag in regards to CoD headtracking and that's all there is to it at the end of the day.

So, the next logical step is to ask the devs to include the function in a patch, or as part of the SDK that will be available after launch. I think it's time to wrap this one up and do just that, ask for the feature.

Bigger picture, Blackdog:

- Why Bohemia Interactive can suport Freetrack using Freetrack interface? You believe BIS is a company of hackers?

It's one point withou answer by the critics of Freetrack interface. A major software company give FT suport in some big title. Why this same kind of suport can't be part of IL-2: CoD?

If this point can be made clear...

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 01:34 PM
I already told you, numerous times in fact. Emulating/simulating an interface with different software and hardware doesn't equal using it, just like simulating northrop grumman aircraft in pacific fighters was not the same as building and selling real ones, but that didn't prevent NG from asking Oleg Maddox a ton of money to let him include them in the sim (something everyone agrees was stupid on NG's part).




which has nothing to do with the subject at hand, Blackdog



You just can't or won't wrap your mind around it, so it's a clear waste of my time to have another go. Please don't take this the wrong way as i harbor no ill will against you just for having your opinion, but i have no interest whatsoever in convincing you personally. My interest was in advocating alternatives for the community, because some people obviously use them and this levels the playing field and creates more competition for me when flying online.




Consensus had already been achieved before you came in with your opinion, Blackdog, and that consensus was for alternatives forms (not just add another one, but make make allowance for many) of headtracker




I honestly don't believe you are a NP "public relations/damage control" spokesperson who's getting paid to do this, you just have your opinion and i'm fine with that. That being said, you sure do have an axe to grind with FT, just like Lobi has an axe to grind with NP. I think you two are not that different even if you advocate opposing points, but all this "passion for the cause" just clouds your judgment and you both miss the bigger picture sometimes.




my judgement hasn't been clouded at all Blackdog, though some have tried to cloud the issue, that being allowance for alternative forms of headtracking




I don't care what it's called, i just want a generic head tracking interface as an alternative and guess what, i will still buy a new trackIR set when i scrape the cash together. I just won't have to fly blind in the meantime.



good on you there, Blackdog, many want to have alternative form of headtracking (am I missing the bigger picture yet?)




My aim in all of this was to make sure other opinions get some exposure too and we as a whole have more options to choose from, but all this polarization is sure making it harder to look at things in a level-headed way.




You don't have to make sure other opinions get some exposure, Blackdog, this isn't a school, and everybody has been free to offer thier opinion and (for those who chose to) have done so, just as equally, everybody is free to question (or not) any opinion or detail of. People also have the right to offer a opinion, without fear of ridicule or intimidation... this is free speech.

*Edit
Agreeing to disagree is a good thing, but continued attempts to force an opinion on another through getting personal (playing the player, instead of the ball so to speak)... isn't. Allowing people to form an opinion from an opinion presented as fact, isn't a healthy premise.

Now, do you agree to disgree and as that should go, leave it as that... or will you come back again and make another attempt to force your opinion?




Nevertheless, even if people have issues with FT they still voted for it and the interpretation is clear: more and more of us want an alternative form of head tracking. That's regardless of the details and the feud between FT and NP.



If you read the comments through, and I believe you should without a biased view but with an eye of appraisal, you would see that many have voted no, because there has been no "don't care" option in the poll was panned as being poorly worded and formed with dubious intent. Others voted in favour of the consesnus that alternative forms of headtracking should be allowed for... people have been saying that for way before you came along.




We can all argue until we're blue in the face about how NP restricts competition or not, or how FT is a hack tool or isn't, but that doesn't change the meaning of the poll one bit.




the poll is not a true reflection, it forces a yes/ no vote for one product




The cat's out of the bag in regards to CoD headtracking and that's all there is to it at the end of the day.




it has been that way since very close to the beginning of discussions, Blackdog.




So, the next logical step is to ask the devs to include the function in a patch, or as part of the SDK that will be available after launch.




That had been mentioned right near the beginning there, Blackdog.




I think it's time to wrap this one up and do just that, ask for the feature.



Really... it had been wrapped up a long time ago

(looks like you missed on getting on top ;) )

swiss
02-18-2011, 02:03 PM
Can please explain me the 17 voters against including freetrack in CoD what have to do with TIR? is because they feel pissed off that somebody can use the same kind of device at a fraction of TiR cost? or what?

In my case I voted no because I'm against BS polls - I had no other choice than voting no.
Enraging lobi is nice side effect. :grin:

albx
02-18-2011, 02:10 PM
In my case I voted no because I'm against BS polls - I had no other choice than voting no.
Enraging lobi is nice side effect. :grin:

LOLLLLL :grin:

Royraiden
02-18-2011, 02:48 PM
In my case I voted no because I'm against BS polls - I had no other choice than voting no.
Enraging lobi is nice side effect. :grin:

Then what is this?
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18707

And this?
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18419

...or this?
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18425

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 02:54 PM
because they were surveys, and this one is a BS poll which forces a yes/ no for one product to disengeniously prove a point?

Royraiden
02-18-2011, 02:56 PM
because they were surveys, and this one is a BS poll which forces a yes/ no for one product to disengeniously prove a point?

It is BS because you dont like it?LOL Its a simple question and the same that I asked in my previous thread,the one that you guys hijacked and turned into an actual BS thread.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:01 PM
It is BS because you dont like it?LOL Its a simple question and the same that I asked in my previous thread,the one that you guys hijacked and turned into an actual BS thread.



wot? because you really don't like it?

norulz
02-18-2011, 03:01 PM
Ignore user function or Freetrack suport into IL-2:CoD?

Ignore forum user. :D


Second phrase was separate subject... I wasn't very clear, I know. :) I was hoping for an weekly update on CoD that said something about FT interface.

Royraiden
02-18-2011, 03:03 PM
wot? because you really don't like it?

What kind of stupid answer is that?You answer a question with another question?Lol.I love your "arguments".

swiss
02-18-2011, 03:03 PM
because they were surveys, and this one is a BS poll which forces a yes/ no for one product to disengeniously prove a point?

Thanks, unfortunately I think any attempt to explain it to him is futile.
While you were one a few who understood the point of the whining poll he did not.
It's ok. ;)

Royraiden
02-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Thanks, unfortunately I think any attempt to explain it to him is futile.
While you were one a few who understood the point of the whining poll he did not.
It's ok. ;)

Your poll was unnecessary.Period.Why bother?Does that make you feel better?Dont you have anything else to do?Dont need to answer.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:20 PM
@RoyRaiden...

here => http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8071032709/m/5391064019


ask a question to the developers... you might have luck there

Royraiden
02-18-2011, 03:23 PM
@RoyRaiden...

here => http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8071032709/m/5391064019


ask a question to the developers... you might have luck there

Cant you answer?Still avoiding questions.So mature.I say again, you guys are pathetic.Swiss is the biggest troll right now, took the crown from Tree.And you Wolf,you are just a sad person seeking for attention here in the forum.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:29 PM
errr, Roy..... http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=59ba5 (the link in the link)


IL-2: Cliffs of Dover Developer Questions
This is your chance to have your questions answered by Game Producer Ilya Shevchenko. No detail is to big or too small!

You can also vote on which questions from other fans you think we should ask. We will then pick the best questions (which a heavy leaning towards the more popular ones) and the final answers will be posted to the official forum (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/for*ums/a/frm/f/8071032709).

Deadline for questions is Monday February 21st at midday GMT.

Qpassa
02-18-2011, 03:35 PM
I am a track ir 4 owner, but I think that people who use Freetrack should enjoy his device. But, If Natural Point has supported O. Maddox ( €€€) he should protect the device link, I would do it.

swiss
02-18-2011, 03:36 PM
Your poll was unnecessary.Period.Why bother?Does that make you feel better?Dont you have anything else to do?Dont need to answer.

It makes me feel sooooo superior.
What's your excuse?
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/liebe/g078.gif


Back to this poll:
It actually reminds me of some African elections where the old despot gets elected with 90% of the votes.
What they forget to mention is that only 20% of the citizens were actually permitted to vote.

So, what we got got here is the proof that >82% of the freetrack users are happy and would actually like to keep their toy.
What an astonishing insight!
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/verschiedene/a062.gif

vicinity
02-18-2011, 03:37 PM
@WR

Except you know that talking about freetrack is banned on Ubi forums so any questions about it will not be posted.

Wolf_Rider
02-18-2011, 03:41 PM
okay... its not UBI forum per se, it is done through Google, so ask the question about alternative headtracking in general and what provisions there might be?

vicinity
02-18-2011, 03:42 PM
So, what we got got here is the proof that >82% of the freetrack users are happy and would actually like to keep their toy.
What an astonishing insight!Even though many in the thread have admitted to being TrackIR users? If you don't want freetrack support fine, but why bother arguing against it when it would be an addittional feature that would have no impact on you?

W32Blaster
02-18-2011, 03:48 PM
... just because he is swiss ...
and bored.

swiss
02-18-2011, 03:53 PM
Even though many in the thread have admitted to being TrackIR users? If you don't want freetrack support fine, but why bother arguing against it when it would be an addittional feature that would have no impact on you?

#122 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=225662&postcount=122)

and:


How could anyone be against something the gets for free?

*****

... just because he is swiss ...

Thank Lord you didn't use a capital letter, ChrisDNT would have felt insulted.

vicinity
02-18-2011, 04:02 PM
#122 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=225662&postcount=122)

I already have read that post, and ok, you think the poll has some bias (I personally think there is nothing wrong as yes, people who don't care, shouldn't bother voting, not having an opinion doesn't need to be represented in this case and no, this isn't democracy, it's a select representation of some gamers on an internet forum).

Point is, no matter how the poll was set up, you are doing all FT users a disservice by continuing to argue against it when you seem to not care either way.

swiss
02-18-2011, 04:34 PM
I already have read that post, and ok, you think the poll has some bias (I personally think there is nothing wrong as yes, people who don't care, shouldn't bother voting, not having an opinion doesn't need to be represented in this case and no, this isn't democracy, it's a select representation of some gamers on an internet forum).


It is NOT a representation if you exclude an unknown percentage of the community - that was what my example was about, not democracy.
Seriously, don't you guys learn that in school?

The results of this poll are worth exactly: nothing.


Point is, no matter how the poll was set up, you are doing all FT users a disservice by continuing to argue against it when you seem to not care either way.

Actually I was doing Lobi a disservice, but also a service to his pharmacist, he sure could sell him a big box of drugs to lower his blood pressure.;)

vicinity
02-18-2011, 05:11 PM
It is NOT a representation if you exclude an unknown percentage of the community - that was what my example was about, not democracy.
Seriously, don't you guys learn that in school?

The results of this poll are worth exactly: nothing.
My point was that the people who want to vote 'don't care' isn't important, like it would in a democracy.

Also notice my use of "select representation"...you'll never have absolute representation of the opinion of everyone who would/wouldn't use a feature in a poll anyway, as the majority won't be on these forums yet or those who won't have seen the poll.

Saying the poll means nothing isn't true, it shows at least that some people are interested in FT support and some are not or do not want it. It's not a fully scientific poll no, but that isn't even possible on an internet forum.

A Yes/No poll was good enough to show enough interest in support of FT, on the BI forum for BI to implement it into their game.

albx
02-18-2011, 05:31 PM
errr, Roy..... http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=59ba5 (the link in the link)


IL-2: Cliffs of Dover Developer Questions
This is your chance to have your questions answered by Game Producer Ilya Shevchenko. No detail is to big or too small!

You can also vote on which questions from other fans you think we should ask. We will then pick the best questions (which a heavy leaning towards the more popular ones) and the final answers will be posted to the official forum (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/for*ums/a/frm/f/8071032709).

Deadline for questions is Monday February 21st at midday GMT.

Ok, I asked the question http://www.google.com/moderator/#15/e=59ba5&t=59ba5.40&q=59ba5.15f7be

so who want an answer i think should vote for it

thanks

swiss
02-18-2011, 05:57 PM
My point was that the people who want to vote 'don't care' isn't important, like it would in a democracy.


Not entirely true, depends on regulations.
Empty but returned ballots can be extremely important, but this goes too far OT.


But again: Lobi wanted to proof how important them implementation of FT is.
To proof this point you need a survey, a "yes vs. no" poll is rather ill-suited.


Now, let's look at the facts using some logic:

Why would Oleg hesitate to implement FT?
Answer: There is zero reason to exclude it, as long as it can be done fast and easy.

Unless:
a.
there are some legal issues Oleg is worried about and therefore hesitates
(which is obviously not a problem)
b.
He made a deal with NP and took money for it. It is his right to do so.

If it is "b", you can whine all day long, it's not gonna change anything, at least not for the next few months.
In fact, this whole discussion is a joke, we have to wait, and once the game is released face the facts.
Or does anyone seriously believe Oleg could just "forget" to implement FT? It's not like he's retarded or something.
Jeez.

LoBiSoMeM
02-18-2011, 06:28 PM
Why would Oleg hesitate to implement FT?
Answer: There is zero reason to exclude it, as long as it can be done fast and easy.

Unless:
a.
there are some legal issues Oleg is worried about and therefore hesitates
(which is obviously not a problem)
b.
He made a deal with NP and took money for it. It is his right to do so.

If it is "b", you can whine all day long, it's not gonna change anything, at least not for the next few months.
In fact, this whole discussion is a joke, we have to wait, and once the game is released face the facts.
Or does anyone seriously believe Oleg could just "forget" to implement FT? It's not like he's retarded or something.
Jeez.

That's the points. The only logical answer for me is the b. letter. But why in this case Oleg can't came here and talk about? Maybe because is something not so "legal" about that?

I'm just speculating in this case. But we can't have a single word from 1C... And I think it's really strange.

The good point is that 1C let the discussions evolve. It's a nice touch.

Now, it's really wait and see what's happens... But one fact is if Oleg/1C dind't have one "hidden exclusivity contract" with NP, they CAN use Freetrack interface in IL-2:CoD. BIS made it, so, it's completly possible and LEGAL to do. People need to understand that.

vicinity
02-18-2011, 06:52 PM
Not entirely true, depends on regulations.
Empty but returned ballots can be extremely important, but this goes too far OT.


But again: Lobi wanted to proof how important them implementation of FT is.
To proof this point you need a survey, a "yes vs. no" poll is rather ill-suited.It is ill-suited in your opinion, and complaining about the poll doesn't actually address the question of whether FT support should be included.



Now, let's look at the facts using some logic:

Why would Oleg hesitate to implement FT?
Answer: There is zero reason to exclude it, as long as it can be done fast and easy.

Unless:
a.
there are some legal issues Oleg is worried about and therefore hesitates
(which is obviously not a problem)
b.
He made a deal with NP and took money for it. It is his right to do so.

If it is "b", you can whine all day long, it's not gonna change anything, at least not for the next few months.
In fact, this whole discussion is a joke, we have to wait, and once the game is released face the facts.
Or does anyone seriously believe Oleg could just "forget" to implement FT? It's not like he's retarded or something.
Jeez.There is nothing there that I would argue with, except i'm not the one whining - i'm adding support for a feature I would like added to the game if it is not already in it.

GOA_Potenz
02-18-2011, 11:05 PM
Swiss can you stop arguing with everybody, cool for you that use trackir, but what's this crusade against it, there's no point on yours, so please stop being a pure bampot, and no more argument.

Can it be?, please.

Wolf_Rider
02-19-2011, 01:51 AM
My point was that the people who want to vote 'don't care' isn't important, like it would in a democracy.

Also notice my use of "select representation"...you'll never have absolute representation of the opinion of everyone who would/wouldn't use a feature in a poll anyway, as the majority won't be on these forums yet or those who won't have seen the poll.

Saying the poll means nothing isn't true, it shows at least that some people are interested in FT support and some are not or do not want it. It's not a fully scientific poll no, but that isn't even possible on an internet forum.

A Yes/No poll was good enough to show enough interest in support of FT, on the BI forum for BI to implement it into their game.


if the poll had have been run with wording along the lines of;

Should games have provision for alternative headtracking - yes/ no?
Doesn't worry me either way

you may have received an even larger yes vote than the current one

if it had have been along the lines of;

Should FT (or any other headtracker) be included with capacity to sponge/ hack off TIR/ other - yes/ no?
Should FT (or any other headtracker) be included without capacity to sponge/ hack off TIR/ other - yes/ no
Don't care either way

the result would be different again but the intent of the poll would be clear and at all time, the "don't care" vote is neutral and not to be counted as for or against.

LoBiSoMeM
02-19-2011, 07:47 AM
if the poll had have been run with wording along the lines of;

Should games have provision for alternative headtracking - yes/ no?
Doesn't worry me either way

you may have received an even larger yes vote than the current one

if it had have been along the lines of;

Should FT (or any other headtracker) be included with capacity to sponge/ hack off TIR/ other - yes/ no?
Should FT (or any other headtracker) be included without capacity to sponge/ hack off TIR/ other - yes/ no
Don't care either way

the result would be different again but the intent of the poll would be clear and at all time, the "don't care" vote is neutral and not to be counted as for or against.

Freetrack can't "hack" TIR because Freetrack can't connect with TIR hardware.

It's another thing that I'm tired about, NP guy. Freetrack "hacks" nothing.

Be a little more MORAL, you and your company. I'm a litle bit sick that some NP customers can't see really how things works...

But NP troll, please, some words about BIS:ArmAII and Freetrack use! I love the way you run far away from this subject and keep runnig in circles! It's funny!

But you gather more than 20 votes for your cause! I'm alway amazed how people can chose the wrong side for illogical or limmited thinking! It's nice!

Wolf_Rider
02-19-2011, 07:54 AM
lol @ LoBi...

I think you've got your threads mixed up... this one is on a poorly presented poll and besides which, who are you?

LoBiSoMeM
02-19-2011, 07:58 AM
lol @ LoBi...

I think you've got your threads mixed up... this one is on a poorly presented poll and besides which, who are you?

Don't run. Let's talk about BIS suport to Freetrack users. Don't want to talk about that?

swiss
02-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Swiss can you stop arguing with everybody, cool for you that use trackir, but what's this crusade against it, there's no point on yours, so please stop being a pure bampot, and no more argument.

Can it be?, please.

Huh? You must confuse me with somebody, I was just playing with lobi.
(I have 2 FT devices, my pc is full of pirated software - I did post my own review of Tir, but again, see above.)


It is ill-suited in your opinion, and complaining about the poll doesn't actually address the question of whether FT support should be included.

Agreed. This poll doesn't change a thing either - actually here we have two guys arguing about whether FT's interface is legal not.


except i'm not the one whining

You was meant as "you among us/them", sorry.

i'm adding support for a feature I would like added to the game if it is not already in it.

I already addressed this point.
You should remind them to add joystick support...


But you gather more than 20 votes for your cause!

At least 10% voted for same reason like me - wreck your poll. :mrgreen:

Why don't we discuss which options a new poll should have?

Wolf_Rider
02-19-2011, 02:02 PM
Why don't we discuss which options a new poll should have?



:evil: :grin: ;)

SEE
02-19-2011, 03:54 PM
I tend to agree with Swiss regards the Voting options. Headtracking is gaining popularity and there are various systems available. From a Business and marketing perspective I would imagine that the 'Target Market' and 'share' between the various systems is what would be considered and the wether there would be an impact on sales if a particular segment of that 'market share' was unsupported.



If I were marketing a Global product I would establish what segment of the Target Market has, or intends to 'use', Headtracking and what systems they are currently using. May be only 10% use Headtracking and 2% have FT, 7% NP and 1% Other. On the other hand, the use of 'Headtracking' may account for 67% and FT is 35% of that - I haven't a clue and neither has anyone else on this forum. The simple truth, wether you like it or not, is that FT is well established as an 'alternative'. If there are large numbers of FT users in the Headtracking community, and the use of 'Headtracking' represent a significant section of that target market, could omitting support impact on sales?

My approach would be simple (and would apply to permanent Internet connection DRM if the details had not been made public) - place pre-order - send email to UBI asking for spec/HT support - no response or no support for FT/Other - buy 'appropriate' or 'Cancel Order' giving reasons for!

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 01:15 AM
My approach would be simple (and would apply to permanent Internet connection DRM if the details had not been made public) - place pre-order - send email to UBI asking for spec/HT support - no response or no support for FT/Other - buy 'appropriate' or 'Cancel Order' giving reasons for!



Publisher would find themselves left wide open if that little (or other)requirement wasn't printed on the box, or announced by retail sales assistant at time of purchase... not because of the requirement but for not publishing the details...

In this case, sales wouldn't take that much of hit (I don't know if royalties apply, or how they would work for PC games but you'd be looking at $100 lost in royalties if it was a music album, based on numbers result here), if all refused.

need to keep in mind though, the problem isn't the alternative headtrackers, it the way some of those alternative trackers go about what they do.

klem
02-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Another e-peening tour-de-force.

Its a simple question. If you don't care don't vote.

I have TIR, I don't care about FT, I don't vote. HT is a great idea. If I knew more about Freetrack (and I'm not going to waste my time finding out) I might think its a good idea or I mght think its a bad idea but that would be on technical grounds not some kind of emotional reaction.

As some people have said, why block something that doesn't concern you?

Hmmm maybe this post of mine is an emotional reaction to stupidity.

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 10:49 AM
don't care, so don't vote?
sorta skews the truer picture of what should be a survey poll though.... with non - compulsory voting, the gist of what you're saying happens anyway.

norulz
02-20-2011, 11:21 AM
Besides ridiculously dodging the BIS subject, "NP PR" makes another mistake... by using just a single "user account" to constantly reply its nonsense... thus getting to a point where people reading the pages start to feel nausea about that... brand.

I mean... look at this thread... it's like a tennis court... NP guy trying to kick all the balls thrown at him that he think it might put the free versions of interfaces or software or even hardware in a bad light. But letting slip what it's "unpleasant" for NP to respond.

Question for NP.

Would NP consider to dump the production of consumer class cameras (TIR 4 and 5) due to the fact that multicores CPUs these days need only a tiny fraction of their power to calculate what "the chip" on their TIR cameras does?

NP could still sell the NP head clip or reflector and a more simple camera without the chip. Maybe including in the camera kit a small plastic (cheap) mechanism with which the user could quickly and conveniently switch the camera from a standard Webcam (with IR filter on and vis light filter off, maybe even some IR leds on for reflector use) to a IR only webcam (that has IR filter removed and normal light filter on).

Such camera and clip package could be sold around 40$ and given the fact that the software can be made in spare time (hey... look at the others...) would be much cheaper and better penetrate the market niche.

NP could still pretend that their interface is "better" and compete with the other market solutions...



Doesn't sound like a juicy business eh? I bet it doesn't...

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Besides ridiculously dodging the BIS subject, "NP PR" makes another mistake... by using just a single "user account" to constantly reply its nonsense... thus getting to a point where people reading the pages start to feel nausea about that... brand.

I mean... look at this thread... it's like a tennis court... NP guy trying to kick all the balls thrown at him that he think it might put the free versions of interfaces or software or even hardware in a bad light. But letting slip what it's "unpleasant" for NP to respond.

Question for NP.

Would NP consider to dump the production of consumer class cameras (TIR 4 and 5) due to the fact that multicores CPUs these days need only a tiny fraction of their power to calculate what "the chip" on their TIR cameras does?

NP could still sell the NP head clip or reflector and a more simple camera without the chip. Maybe including in the camera kit a small plastic (cheap) mechanism with which the user could quickly and conveniently switch the camera from a standard Webcam (with IR filter on and vis light filter off, maybe even some IR leds on for reflector use) to a IR only webcam (that has IR filter removed and normal light filter on).

Such camera and clip package could be sold around 40$ and given the fact that the software can be made in spare time (hey... look at the others...) would be much cheaper and better penetrate the market niche.

NP could still pretend that their interface is "better" and compete with the other market solutions...



Doesn't sound like a juicy business eh? I bet it doesn't...




what have multicores got to do with anything? and there was a question asked of LoBi which sent him into meltdown; how did BIS integrate the FT? So I don't what this business of ignoring the BIS subject is all about...

"NP guy trying to kick all the balls balls thrown at him"? What am I supposed to do? buckle under the weight of that onslaught?? No! and I'm not affiliated with NP, did you miss that bit? So you (and your mates) are getting personal about it on a consistent and persistent basis, you're casting your free versions of questionable history and practice in a bad light yourselves.

As for your other questions to of NP, you'll have to ask them.. tip! be polite about though, it may help you actually getting a response (if any)

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 12:45 PM
And there was a question asked of LoBi which sent him into meltdown; how did BIS integrate the FT? So I don't what this business of ignoring the BIS subject is all about...

Using Freetrack interface, FreeTrackClient.dll!

Don't - play - stupid - with - me!

And you can shove your "Mouse Look" whatever you want too!

Said that, why BIS can use FreeTrackClient.dll - will say again to the moron understand - FreeTrackClient.dll without any "legal" or "moral" problem?

But I will write again, because stupidity is hard to overcome:

- ArmAII uses FreeTrackClient.dll to communicate with Freetrack! You want to know how to communicate with FreeTrackClient.dll? I put in this forum the sample of command line code to get all the data needed, included in Freetrack SDK!!!

This guy is pathetic...

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 12:52 PM
what have multicores got to do with anything?

Again, playing stupid.

Wit MC processor, the amunt of CPU used to process raw data from a cheap webcam and provide in the end 6DOF HT data is tiny.

NP have shivers with Freetrack because of that: for free you can do all TIR do with lessa money. Simple as that.

Who wants to buy te NONSENSE talking about "hack", fell free to embark into the vessel of genious like W-R... I'm living in 2011, and try to "copyright" one trivial thing is pathetic.

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 01:05 PM
all that describes the what and the method. LoBi, it doesn't describe the how it works... what does FT hook into with your ArmAII? eg, does it hook into mouse look, does it hook into NP, does it hook into yet another view system?

How many DoF is available FT in ArmAII (OoTB)?

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 01:14 PM
all that describes the what and the method. LoBi, it doesn't describe the how it works... what does FT hook into with your ArmAII? eg, does it hook into mouse look, does it hook into NP, does it hook into yet another view system?

How many DoF is available FT in ArmAII (OoTB)?

This guy is idiot or what?

I'll not explalin AGAIN how works FreeTrackClient.dll. If you don't understand until now, you will never can.

ArmAII "hook with my ArmAII" providing Freetrack axis to these actions:

- 2DOF free looking, pitch and yaw;

- Lean right and left, X translation;

- Zoom view, Z translation.

So, 4DOF, like TIR does in ArmAII. If you use TIR, it's the same way to assign TIR axis to ArmAII controls.

What's your point now? NP have a "patent pending" with "looking" into games?

swiss
02-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Such camera and clip package could be sold around 40$ and given the fact that the software can be made in spare time (hey... look at the others...) would be much cheaper and better penetrate the market niche.

NP could still pretend that their interface is "better" and compete with the other market solutions...


Why should they do that?
If I sell something I try to find the point where the price curve cuts demand.
Even they sold triple the amount: 3x$40= $120, yet a single TIR5 flushes $150 into their account.
That would be kind of stupid.


Competition: I wouldn't call it competition when the alternative product is FREE.



edit: given the fact that the software can be made in spare time (hey... look at the others...)
This point is ridiculous.
It's not about it can be made, but was made by some geeks who deliberately decided to work for free. They just didn't get paid for it. Cool.
Why do you think the latest version in from 2008, I mean, it's soooo easy?

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 01:23 PM
This guy is idiot or what?



so what happened to the 6DoF you keep badgering about? and you still haven't explained in layman's terms the what...

When you can be civil and behave yourself, I'll take you off ignore again

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 01:24 PM
Why should they do that?
If I sell something I try to find the point where the price curve cuts demand.
Even they sold triple the amount: 3x$40= $120, yet a single TIR5 flushes $150 into their account.

That would be kind of stupid.


Competition: I wouldn't call it competition when the alternative product is FREE.

Perfect the last sentence!

And I can't also call a normal consumer who bought an expensive product with a free solution available...

But wait... If NP can make that this free solution is blocked, maybe NP can be the only option available...

But is really hard to some genious here understand that... They think that's all "normal" in they amazing view of economics...

:-)

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 01:29 PM
so what happened to the 6DoF you keep badgering about?

WTF?!?!?!

I'm talking about Freetrack Interface suport. ArmAII didn't use all 6DOF in the game, just 4 axis, with FT or TIR. What's your stupid point now?

It's better and better! Now I beggin to believe that you don't work for any company. You are really nonsense! My head aches! :confused:

You know what head tracking and 6DOF means at all? I need to explain that to you?

Ohhhh... Maybe NP have a "patent pending" over "6DOF"! Only NP can delivery 6DOF data!

You, NP, and anyone that goes this way is sick.

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 01:33 PM
WTF?!?!?!

I'm talking about Freetrack Interface suport. ArmAII didn't use all 6DOF in this game, just 4 axis, wit FT or TIR. What's is your stupid point now?

It's better and better! Now I beggin to believe that you don't work for any company. You are really nonsense! My head aches! :confused:




well, that's slightly better...

yes, LoBi, the interface is the how... can you explain the what?

Point? what happened to the badgering over 6DoF? it looks like you'll happily settle for 4DoF now.

At least it is starting to sink in... I don't work for NP

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 01:39 PM
well, that's slightly better...

yes, LoBi, the interface is the how... can you explain the what?

Point? what happened to the badgering over 6DoF? it looks like you'll happily settle for 4DoF now.

At least it is starting to sink in... I don't work for NP

NP must be happy with that, you are really pathetic. Even NP don't deserves this kind of employee.

I'm not "badgering over 6DOF", if you can't noticed yeat, I'm advocating for Freetrack Interface suport into IL-2:CoD, and in this case with 6DOF, available in IL-2:CoD.

But what I really can't believe is that I loose my time with you and you really believe that you achieve some point because ArmAII uses only 4DOF with FT and TIR. It's really too much nonsense for my brain!

Go take your meds, please. You really need it! :cool:

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 01:50 PM
none of that explains "the what", LoBi...

and no, you're badgering anyone who opposes the hack tool, not advocating for inclusion... if you were "advocating" you should be able to and would have no hesitation to explain how it all works, to the layman. You would approach the developers with a clean product.

Now you may think you're being very clever , but you aren't doing your cause any favours... in fact you're doing it more damage than good.

swiss
02-20-2011, 02:11 PM
They think that's all "normal" in they amazing view of economics...

:-)

The normal view of economics is to make as much cash as possible, what's wrong with that?
Look at Apple: They sell you obsolete, or at least cheap, hardware for an astronomical price.
For two reasons:
1st: They can.
2nd: Consumers don't trust cheap stuff(I dont f.i., I hate Apple from the bottom of my heart though)


But let's get back to OM/Ubi vs TIR/FT

Both, FT and TIR offer their interface for free.
Implementing them is not free, you have to pay the programmer, even if it's done in short amount time.

One of the two(FT/TIR) make actually money with the interface/product they offer.

That means you can charge only one of them for implementing their interface.
Of course, they are only willing to pay if you cut the competition out - normal.

Sounds like win-win situation.
Unless, of course, your sales would suffer substantially because you only offer the interface for one device.

This last point is the only important one - this is what this freaking poll should have been about.

norulz
02-20-2011, 02:16 PM
Why should they do that?
If I sell something I try to find the point where the price curve cuts demand.
Even they sold triple the amount: 3x$40= $120, yet a single TIR5 flushes $150 into their account.
That would be kind of stupid.


Competition: I wouldn't call it competition when the alternative product is FREE.



edit:
This point is ridiculous.
It's not about it can be made, but was made by some geeks who deliberately decided to work for free. They just didn't get paid for it. Cool.
Why do you think the latest version in from 2008, I mean, it's soooo easy?


I cannot enter in this debate as it will mean to enter politics not only economics... but, you can see for yourself if you look care enough why what you say is wrong.

look around you...

swiss
02-20-2011, 02:31 PM
I cannot enter in this debate as it will mean to enter politics not only economics... but, you can see for yourself if you look care enough why what you say is wrong.

look around you...

A statement in which you refuse to make a statement, cool.

Problem is: That is the core of our lil' discussion here.

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 02:38 PM
none of that explains "the what", LoBi...

and no, you're badgering anyone who opposes the hack tool, not advocating for inclusion... if you were "advocating" you should be able to and would have no hesitation to explain how it all works, to the layman. You would approach the developers with a clean product.

Now you may think you're being very clever , but you aren't doing your cause any favours... in fact you're doing it more damage than good.

And this guy said that another person was using sophistry...

"The what"... Man, talk clearly... You go around, and around, and aroud... You talk about "mouselook"... You talk about "hack tool"... You talk now about "4DoF"...

And the funniest about that is that you still doing this with some "tone" that you know a lot of things, how world works...

Talk clearly one time in life, please! How do YOU think Freetrack works in ArmAII? You believe the way it works is illegal or imoral? Answer!

Talking about "doing it more damage than good" means nothing here, you are just sound pathetic and without arguments. By the way, until now I like a lot your "insights about nothing"... And they are helping a lot to my "goal":

- People can see that all the lies about Freetrack are vapour, that BIS can use Freetrack Interface without problem, etc.

If 1C don't include FT suport in the new title, that's not my "goal", they have their minds and objectives. I wanto to clarify that's don't exists any reason to NOT INCLUDE FT suport, and that some people will like to have FT suport.

You can't prove nothing against that... Just keep talking nonsense.

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 02:40 PM
A statement in which you refuse to make a statement, cool.

Problem is: That is the core of our lil' discussion here.

Yes, and you don't know a thing about economic abuse.

Try learn why in the world we have some regulations regards that kind of think, instead that pretending we live in a world without any market regulation.

Wolf_Rider
02-20-2011, 02:52 PM
And this guy said that another person was using sophistry...

"The what"... Man, talk clearly... You go around, and around, and aroud... You talk about "mouselook"... You talk about "hack tool"... You talk now about "4DoF"...

And the funniest about that is that you still doing this with some "tone" that you know a lot of things, how world works...

Talk clearly one time in life, please! How do YOU think Freetrack works in ArmAII? You believe the way it works is illegal or imoral? Answer!

Talking about "doing it more damage than good" means nothing here, you are just sound pathetic and without arguments.


The point about the acceptance (all of a sudden) of 4 Dof was the noise about only 3DoF in another flight sim.

I spent years travelling

I don't know, LoBi, that's why I'm asking

and there you are badgering again


*Edit...

it was a lack of regulation which brought on the GFC


and more badgering from you, this time to another

swiss
02-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Yes, and you don't know a thing about economic abuse.

Try learn why in the world we have some regulations regards that kind of think, instead that pretending we live in a world without any market regulation.

File a claim, or stfu.;)

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 03:01 PM
The point about the acceptance (all of a sudden) of 4 Dof was the noise about only 3DoF in another flight sim.

Playing stupid again. I'm not surprised.

The "noise" about "3DoF" is because your beloved company have access to 6DoF in this "another filght sim", and the "hack tool" can use just 3DoF...

I'm tired of so much stupidity. I'm bailing out!

You use twisted arguments, can't discuss with true in mind, just that usual crap...

Bye!

norulz
02-20-2011, 03:02 PM
File a claim, or stfu.;)

Now that's a statement...

LoBiSoMeM
02-20-2011, 03:06 PM
Now that's a statement...

Don't bother anymore, norulz. The level of discussion and knowledge here is really low.

I'm out. Too much stupidity. 1C do whatever they want, they even bother to came here to clarify some points, just to know opinions about some engine flame or make statements about Oleg ocupation...

Let's see what happens in the release of IL-2:CoD...

swiss
02-20-2011, 03:35 PM
Now that's a statement...

this thread is only about two things:


would it be legal to make CoD TIR-only compatible?
Obviously no one here can tell for sure. Sending a letter to whoever is charge will result in a positive or negative replay. So, until we proof, this is all speculating (& bs'ing) about a phantom.


Would a TIR-only release affect sales? Again, this thread/poll was unable to provide answers.


Rem:
Last but not least, we're discussing a worst case $150 investment here. Holy cow!
To play the game with descent graphics you'll need a $300 GPU and a $200 CPU.

norulz
02-20-2011, 03:57 PM
You go build a CPU... while I go drink my beer.



I think I was wrong though about one think... that NP uses just one "account" to give us nausea...


So... I'm out for drinks too... maybe that is you purpose of linving as NP trolls PR agents.

swiss
02-20-2011, 04:05 PM
lol

SEE
02-21-2011, 01:31 PM
In case you are unaware, vote in 'Mysticpumas' IL2forum Poll (link in his opening post) for the inclusion of 6DOF in Stock. Not directly about FT v TIR but the poll includes use of 'alternatives' to TIR.

Wolf_Rider
02-21-2011, 03:06 PM
and most there voted for the inclusion of cockpit modelling that wasn't set for the full 6DoF which will open up another can of worms, that being graphic anomolies.. gaps and missing bits.
It is a completely different poll as determined by its criteria, not a poll for the inclusion of alternative headtrackers per se.


Swiss,

"would it be legal to make CoD TIR-only compatible?
Obviously no one here can tell for sure. Sending a letter to whoever is charge will result in a positive or negative replay. So, until we proof, this is all speculating (& bs'ing) about a phantom.

its been banging on for a bit over two years now ;)

SEE
02-21-2011, 04:20 PM
It is a completely different poll as determined by its criteria, not a poll for the inclusion of alternative headtrackers per se.

Urm?.....never said it was! But the vote shows some interesting data none the less regards 'system' usage and I am sure that everyone with 'headtracking' has an opinion as to its inclusion in Stock. Simply pointing out that they can express/vote ref 6DOF in stock- just in case they missed that thread you understand. But of course, little bits of 'other' data can also be gleaned.........:grin:

But me thinks you don't like one particular set of results from the headtracking community of a different forum, no suprises there W-R! :grin:

robtek
02-21-2011, 04:36 PM
There is also a offspring poll here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2051024119
where one can see that TIR vs FT equals about 10 to 1.

Wolf_Rider
02-21-2011, 04:37 PM
my reference was to the poll Puma raised, which you pointed out...

In case you are unaware, vote in 'Mysticpumas' IL2forum Poll (link in his opening post) for the inclusion of 6DOF in Stock. Not directly about FT v TIR but the poll includes use of 'alternatives' to TIR.


whereas you may also be trying to be refer to Bearcat's survey on the UBI forum.


The thing you seem to be not aware of See, is no-one really is against the inclusion of alternative headtracking... this has been the consensus since very early in the piece.
Its the way some alternative headtracking go about what they do, which is the problem.

LoBiSoMeM
02-21-2011, 04:49 PM
Its the way some alternative headtracking go about what they do, which is the problem.

He's a deaf broken record. Amazing!

Wolf_Rider
02-21-2011, 05:00 PM
and you wonder why there are problems with inclusion...

norulz
02-21-2011, 05:08 PM
I don't think it's amazing... rather pathetic. Only a direct interest in keeping the "face" of NP clean at all costs would go to such ridiculous extent of fighting obvious till bitter end.

What a pathetic way of earning your daily salami...

Wolf_Rider
02-21-2011, 05:10 PM
I'm not the one fighting though ;)

SEE
02-21-2011, 05:30 PM
The thing you seem to be not aware of See, is no-one really is against the inclusion of alternative headtracking... this has been the consensus since very early in the piece.
Its the way some alternative headtracking go about what they do, which is the problem.

I totally agree W-R and that is an honest POV I share. I use FT mainly because it has hot keys to enable/disable any unwanted axis in flight and these are on my POV. I also have TIR but it doesn't have 6 axis hot key support. (I posted on the TIR forum and asked if it could be included at some point). This is why FT is my preferred choice and why it works well in IL2 + 6DOF.

I would like everyone to use their kit in CoD. But if not - then players will have to upgrade, find a work around, not buy CoD and complain to the Devs/publishers. If FT isn't included, there will be a reason. Wether that is made known, only time will tell.

Wolf_Rider
02-21-2011, 05:55 PM
its nice when people see eye to eye, eh?


If a "workaround" can be achieved without infringement... great
If a need for certain features, or changes/ additions made, can be achieved by making a considered approach to the party concerned (ie working with them)... great

Threats of "not to buy" however, has become cliche.

CharveL
02-22-2011, 04:16 PM
Just wanted to chime in and say nice job WR for keeping a logical and calm discussion against the wave of misplaced rabid fanboism.

I think the personal attacks on you do more to harm whatever convoluted rationalizations they're trying to make anyway but watching their meltdowns does have a rubbernecker kind of morbid appeal.

norulz
02-22-2011, 05:34 PM
lol

the pathetic martyr of NP... he's pure soul claimed victory against Mount Obvious.

...let's drink


in a related news... here are some... let's not call them names :D... that are now welcoming "hackers"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12531127

he he heeee...

Wolf_Rider
02-22-2011, 09:01 PM
go and make your own Kinect then ;) and the article refers to the MS Kinect SDK (soon to be released)

julian265
02-22-2011, 09:48 PM
Just wanted to chime in and say nice job WR for keeping a logical and calm discussion...

It's always good to start the working day with a laugh. Thanks.

LoBiSoMeM
02-22-2011, 09:49 PM
go and make your own Kinect then ;) and the article refers to the MS Kinect SDK (soon to be released)

Pathetic as usual. I bought a PS3Eye, didn't "make it", and use a free software to track IR dots and give me 6DoF HT. It's completly different build a TOF camera...

Another stupid atempt to trace comparsions between apples and oranges by this genious! :cool:

But MAYBE now they understand why Kinetic really has some value in HARDWARE, and NP HT gaming products no, because they are really overpriced.

Or not, because he's work for NP.

Wolf_Rider
02-22-2011, 10:02 PM
nooo... you use free software to hack another's software and do so because you felt TIR was too expensive.

Have you stopped to think about the import tax and charges would still be applicable for the MSK?

robtek
02-22-2011, 10:41 PM
Wolf_Rider, forget about them.
They, or at least Lobi.., have finally said in the other thread that they pirate NP Software.
Now they only throw smoke bombs to diffuse any curios reader skimming this thread.
If you go down to their level they'll beat you with experience, not arguments.
Those Fanboys are living in their own little world, they know whats bad and good and wont let facts disturb this little paradise.

One thing: pure and legal -> good <-> illegal or even shady -> bad.
I hope we all have a consent here.

Wolf_Rider
02-22-2011, 10:50 PM
:wink:

JAMF
02-22-2011, 11:00 PM
I wonder where FaceTrackNoIR sits, legaly?

MadBlaster
02-22-2011, 11:53 PM
I wonder where FaceTrackNoIR sits, legaly?

If you live in NWO/WTO fantasyland and your config.ini says this

trackIRUse=1

and you don't have a ~$150 TrackIR unit on your desk, you are an illegal pirate.

Otherwise, it is just like Freetrack. Perfectly legal and good.:)

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 12:00 AM
I wonder where FaceTrackNoIR sits, legaly?




In which regard, JAMF?

SEE
02-23-2011, 12:06 AM
Same as FT - legal! Any business that suffers copywright/Patent infringement can claim damages. Either NP are very rich/unconcerned or there has been no infringement. FT users have nothing to prove but have fell into the trap of arguing conflicting opinions of 'morality'.

You might as well devoted the entire thread to a neighbours dispute regards ownership of apples falling from a neighbours tree into his garden! Bloody ridiculous!

NP don't like FT....prove it is illegal and sue!

Anyone don't like NP don't buy their products.

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 12:15 AM
well, SEE, you keep pushing the dispute along... don't you ;)

FTNIR is a hack just like FT is.

Prove FT illegal? you idiots already have

SEE
02-23-2011, 12:17 AM
In which regard, JAMF?

Beacause it is used for 6DOF in Il2 and therefore........hell, do we really give a gnats turd?......it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic!

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 12:21 AM
~ do we really give a gnats turd.......:grin:




no, you don't

SEE
02-23-2011, 12:25 AM
W-R if your keeping count of posts ....your winning hands down! congrats there buddy. Secondly, I wouldn't call anybody an idiot but I guess my principles are different to yours.

Extreme_One
02-23-2011, 12:29 AM
The problem is that FT and FTnoIR are at present pretty much forced to emulate the NP software because very few game developers have opened up the possibility to interface directly with their game.

Of course this pisses NP off as they don't see why anyone should hack or emulate their software without purchasing their hardware. That's reasonable.

However it is unreasonable and undeniably false to claim that nowadays the only way to have head-tracking in a game is to have to buy expensive hardware when it's patently obvious that a webcam with the right software is perfectly capable.

If a developer were to say to, for example, the FT devs; "Hey we love what you do but we would need to enable native support rather than hacked TrackIR emulation..." then NP would no longer hold the monopoly, and we the consumer would finally have a fair choice.

It would then be up to NP to ensure that their hardware and software solution was superior to the 'webcam + free software' solution and we would have an open and honest playing field.

NP are trying to maintain their monopoly, I can't blame them but competition is healthy and if NP are stopping developers from enabling any alternative solution then that is anti-competitive and unreasonable.

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 12:42 AM
FMD....

that is the problem

the alternatives developers have every opportunity to present a clean alternative to developers in seeking inclusion. A consensus was reached very early in the thread on games should be available to alternative headtracking

even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.

there is no monopoly (proven) and no proof of anti-competitive behaviour (that cry has been going on for 2 -3 years now)

albx
02-23-2011, 06:15 AM
FMD....

that is the problem

the alternatives developers have every opportunity to present a clean alternative to developers in seeking inclusion. A consensus was reached very early in the thread on games should be available to alternative headtracking

even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.

there is no monopoly (proven) and no proof of anti-competitive behaviour (that cry has been going on for 2 -3 years now)

elaborate that please... what means? now you are climbing on the glass.. what quality have TIR interface that don't have FT?? THEY JUST SEND FUC*ING DATA THROUGH A .DLL

and, for your information, this is the C++ source code to use Freetrack DLL


/************************************************** **********************
* freetrack_c_interface.c
*
* A simple command line application which reads the data from FreeTrack
* using the FreeTrackClient.dll interface.
*
* Assumes that a copy of the FreeTrackClient.dll is in the same folder,
* thought this does not necessarily have to be the same folder as the
* FreeTrack application itself.
*
* Based on code from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic-link_library
*
* Alastair Moore, December 2007
*
************************************************** **********************/

//#include <iostream>
//#include <tchar.h>
#include <windows.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <conio.h>

typedef struct
{
float yaw;
float pitch;
float roll;
float x;
float y;
float z;
int dataID;
}FreeTrackData;

// DLL function signatures
// These match those given in FTTypes.pas
// WINAPI is macro for __stdcall defined somewhere in the depths of windows.h
typedef bool (WINAPI *importGetData)(FreeTrackData * data);
typedef char *(WINAPI *importGetDllVersion)(void);
typedef void (WINAPI *importReportID)(int name);
typedef char *(WINAPI *importProvider)(void);


int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
//declare imported function pointers
importGetData getData;
importGetDllVersion getDllVersion;
importReportID reportID;
importProvider provider;

// create variables for exchanging data with the dll
FreeTrackData data;
FreeTrackData *pData;
pData = &data;
char *pDllVersion;
int name = 453;
char *pProvider;


// Load DLL file
HINSTANCE hinstLib = LoadLibrary("FreeTrackClient.dll");
if (hinstLib == NULL) {
printf("ERROR: unable to load DLL\n");
return 1;
}
else
{
printf("dll loaded\n");
}

// Get function pointers
getData = (importGetData)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTGetData");
getDllVersion = (importGetDllVersion)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTGetDllVersion");
reportID = (importReportID)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTReportID");
provider = (importProvider)GetProcAddress(hinstLib, "FTProvider");

// Check they are valid
if (getData == NULL) {
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTGetData' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (getDllVersion == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTGetDllVersion' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (reportID == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTReportID' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}
if (reportID == NULL){
printf("ERROR: unable to find 'FTProvider' function\n");
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);
return 1;
}

// Print the address of each function
printf("FTGetData is at address: 0x%x\n",getData);
printf("FTGetDllVersion is at address: 0x%x\n",getDllVersion);
printf("FTReportID is at address: 0x%x\n",reportID);
printf("FTProvider is at address: 0x%x\n",provider);

// Call each function and display result
pDllVersion = getDllVersion();
printf("Dll Version: %s\n", pDllVersion);

pProvider = provider();
printf("Provider: %s\n", pProvider);

reportID(name); //not sure what this does - I guess it tells the dll that I am using it.

system("pause"); //wait till keyboard is pressed before entering main loop
while( kbhit() != 1)
{
system("cls"); //clear screen
if (getData(pData))
{
printf("Record ID: %d\n" , data.dataID);
printf("Yaw: %5.2f\n" , data.yaw );
printf("Pitch: %5.2f\n" , data.pitch );
printf("Roll: %5.2f\n" , data.roll );
printf("X: %5.2f\n" , data.x );
printf("Y: %5.2f\n" , data.y );
printf("Z: %5.2f\n" , data.z );
}
else
{
printf("Nothing returned from getData\n");
break;
}
}

// Unload DLL file
FreeLibrary(hinstLib);

return 0;
}



the red/bolded text are the coords... that is very easy to include in a game... OK?

dmn... i promised not reply to W_R posts but i had to do

Alberto

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 07:53 AM
err, albx... I never that wasn't the code, I said it was a copy paste

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header




and I asked your pal to put into layman's terms how the FT worked, ie what did it hook into?

Extreme_One
02-23-2011, 08:01 AM
....

even though FT has a non-TIR interfacing, most developers pass that over...

I have fixed your quote to make it more thruthful.

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 08:11 AM
is it hardly surprising a FT'er would stoop to forgery now?

Extreme_One
02-23-2011, 08:16 AM
is it hardly surprising a FT'er would stoop to forgery now?

You are wrong. I'm not an FTer. I have TrackIR1 hardware, unfortunately there is no Win7 driver so it's not currently in use. I have too many kids to feed and therefore cannot afford to purchase the latest TIR.

Judging by your apparent inability to see the whole picture it is typical that you would jump to the wrong conclusion though.

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 08:27 AM
the rest is your concern and your concern alone and not an excuse to resort to forgery

albx
02-23-2011, 08:32 AM
err, albx... I never that wasn't the code, I said it was a copy paste

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header




and I asked your pal to put into layman's terms how the FT worked, ie what did it hook into?

W_R you act like a dumbass but i don't think you are... so WHO really are you?

P.S.
Probably mods know who you really are, this is the reason why this thread like the other isn't locked yet? why are we killing each other only to have included FT support in CoD? If they already didn't there is a reason, so I hope Oleg & C. can change their mind if possible...

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 08:35 AM
who am I? I'm a layman asking about the way the FT works.... ? simple question, I thought

albx
02-23-2011, 08:43 AM
who am I? I'm a layman asking about the way the FT works.... ? simple question, I thought

W_R, you know how it works, you just told me in the other post (if you didn't know how to develope a C++ software you couldn't tell me), and probably you already downloaded the source code from the FT website, so what exactly do you want know? how FT compute the coords or what?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 08:49 AM
W_R, you know how it works, you just told me in the other post



err, where was this??

albx
02-23-2011, 08:54 AM
err, albx... I never that wasn't the code, I said it was a copy paste

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header




and I asked your pal to put into layman's terms how the FT worked, ie what did it hook into?

there? or i'm so stupid i can't read english because it's not my native language? or i missed some posts?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 09:01 AM
are you sure you really want to go down this road, albx?



no, not "there"... do you know what the red highlighted section is?

albx
02-23-2011, 09:04 AM
are you sure you really want to go down this road, albx?



no, not "there"... do you know what the red highlighted section is?

tell me, I'm sure i missed something... it's not your statement?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 09:08 AM
err, (if you mean the section you highlighted) no

albx
02-23-2011, 09:09 AM
err, (if you mean the section you highlighted) no

sorry, so who wrote it? I'm sure I missed something then :rolleyes:

edit:
I found it, ok. I just copied and pasted the code from my sdk samples

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 09:14 AM
yes, you have...

the code you posted is a copy/ paste of text another copied from a post on another website...

neither you nor the other one can answer the question in layman's terms and choose to throw out smokescreens and stink bombs instead.

albx
02-23-2011, 09:23 AM
yes, you have...

the code you posted is a copy/ paste of text another copied from a post on another website...

neither you nor the other one can answer the question in layman's terms and choose to throw out smokescreens and stink bombs instead.

what??? I copied and pasted the SOURCE CODE SAMPLE in MY SDK folder, not copied from another website, it's included in the FT files, so what exactly you wants to know? How freetrack send data to the DLL or what? be more precise
dmn in one post you seemed you understood, i was aware you copied a post from FT forum, now you again act like a dumbass... I'm tired...

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 09:40 AM
I've already asked what I wanted to know, it was clear... so what are you going around in circles for? Can't work the ball, so you're goin' the player instead??

albx
02-23-2011, 09:48 AM
W_R, sorry but i have to tell you in my italian dialect, vaupigliancul

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 09:50 AM
I don't know your dialect and this is an english forum, so could you give a rough translation, perhaps?

vicinity
02-23-2011, 10:23 AM
It means "you're right about everything and everyone agrees with you and you're so amazing so please now, can you stop posting the same thing again and again and then accusing everyone else of going round in circles", I think.

MadBlaster
02-23-2011, 10:39 AM
yes, you have...

the code you posted is a copy/ paste of text another copied from a post on another website...



Who is this person, "another"?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 10:59 AM
two posts before your #98

MadBlaster
02-23-2011, 11:05 AM
Then what did you mean by your comments below as it is not part of text at #96 (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=225529&postcount=96)?

(its not 100% bug free but at least it works

-updated the struct
-renamed FTReportID to FTReportName on line 93
-commented out the break in the loop, this allows the program to keep if for some reason the struct failed to update, so any program built off it should be error-tolerant)

is from the header

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 11:09 AM
do you want it in layman's or technical terms?

MadBlaster
02-23-2011, 11:10 AM
Do you admit these are your words and thoughts or not? Yes or no?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 11:17 AM
read back a bit, sport

MadBlaster
02-23-2011, 11:19 AM
Thanks. I have my answer.:)

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 11:21 AM
well done... I'm glad to have helped you

do you have anything else pertaining to the thread, anything new or original, you'd like to offer?

MadBlaster
02-23-2011, 11:48 AM
there? or i'm so stupid i can't read english because it's not my native language? or i missed some posts?

Albx, watch your six in the future. This was a smoke bomb trap set up by the W-R.

Step 1) W-R sets up the trap by saying this C++ script is a "copy-paste" job to generate an expected reaction from you.

Step 2) W-R makes a few casual "programmer" type comments about the script to make you think he has some proof that it is a "copy-paste" job. As you see, I could not get a simple "yes/no" answer from him that these were his words. Instead, he tried to trick you into thinking they were a part of post #96 from that "other/another" poster when you called him out on them. Pretty sneaky crap going on here.

Step 3) W-R conveniently forgets to remind you that this script has probably gone through a few versions of Freetrack, leading you to possibly leap to the conclusion that this “commenting out” was done surreptitiously and, therefore, must be evidence of a “copy-paste” job. Did you notice how he tries to lead you there in his "programmer" comments?

Obviously, the purpose of the trap is simply to deflect you from your original observation about the ridiculous statement he made. He stated:

“even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.”

Clearly, this statement is also only meant to provoke another reaction. I say to Wolf-Rider, trolls can not herd cats.;)

albx
02-23-2011, 12:29 PM
Albx, watch your six in the future. This was a smoke bomb trap set up by the W-R.

Step 1) W-R sets up the trap by saying this C++ script is a "copy-paste" job to generate an expected reaction from you.

Step 2) W-R makes a few casual "programmer" type comments about the script to make you think he has some proof that it is a "copy-paste" job. As you see, I could not get a simple "yes/no" answer from him that these were his words. Instead, he tried to trick you into thinking they were a part of post #96 from that "other/another" poster when you called him out on them. Pretty sneaky crap going on here.

Step 3) W-R conveniently forgets to remind you that this script has probably gone through a few versions of Freetrack, leading you to possibly leap to the conclusion that this “commenting out” was done surreptitiously and, therefore, must be evidence of a “copy-paste” job. Did you notice how he tries to lead you there in his "programmer" comments?

Obviously, the purpose of the trap is simply to deflect you from your original observation about the ridiculous statement he made. He stated:

“even when FT uses a an non-TIR interfacing, most users pass that over for the TIR interfacing for its quality.”

Clearly, this statement is also only meant to provoke another reaction. I say to Wolf-Rider, trolls can not herd cats.;)

sure i will, ty MadBlaster ;)

SEE
02-23-2011, 12:47 PM
who am I? I'm a layman asking about the way the FT works.... ? simple question, I thought

W-R , NP know exactly how it works, send them an email - given their customer support reputation I am sure they will send you full and accurate details.

Maybe you or NP can answer a simple question (and I suggest all FT users simply repeat it to any quote that involves 'Hack', 'stolen', 'not clean'!).

QUESTION...........Why have NP been unable to claim damages or prevent the use of their original DLL against, or by, 3rd party developers?

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 12:58 PM
well, for something has been banging on for 2 ~ 3 years now, there hasn't been much advance on "monopoly" threats by FT either ;)

albx
02-23-2011, 01:24 PM
It means "you're right about everything and everyone agrees with you and you're so amazing so please now, can you stop posting the same thing again and again and then accusing everyone else of going round in circles", I think.

exactly that :grin:

Wolf_Rider
02-23-2011, 01:40 PM
how's yer black shirt? all nicely starched and ironed?

albx
02-23-2011, 02:07 PM
how's yer black shirt? all nicely starched and ironed?

are you telling me I'm a fascist? elaborate please

you finished all the arguments so now you begin to offend people or what?