Tracers Rounds (From SimHQ)

[jt_medina]

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3206853/Tracers_Rounds_and_Star_Wars.html#Post3206853


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vzngT6lZYY&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vzngT6lZYY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx5aR1Knpb8&feature=player_embedded

[Heliocon]

Good videos - the main thing that needs to be in though is the bullet bouncing, if I go full auto shooting at a tank the bullets should dig first and then when they hit the tank many should ricochet. Anyone know if that is in the game?

[swiss]

Let me quote Luthier: The tracers are perfect. Point. End of discussion.

[Vasilj_Mitu]

Let me quote Luthier: The tracers are perfect. Point. End of discussion.

of course they are. if in place of your eyes you have camera lens and shutter working on slower speeds than your usual vision is, then they are perfect.

what about the rounds being shot at you? now tracers also have glowing tip and sides instead of the base?

I know this tracer discussions sounds silly, boring, tiresome and above all nitpicking... but to me they will not look natural and bring more to the game immersion-wise just because Luthier says they are perfect.

[swiss]

...but to me they will not look natural and bring more to the game immersion-wise just because Luthier says they are perfect.

You ignore the fact he doesn't give a sh1t what you think - even if you repeat it a thousand times.

Need a picture to make his POV more understandable?



You:
http://www.perform.org.uk/images/uploaded/whining.jpg

Luthier and MG-crew:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn105/dante1st/care-o-meter-1.jpg



http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/frech/a025.gif

[Jaws2002]

I hope they don't keep all tracers white by default. It doesn't do much if i can only change tracers in my plane.
If they want to go with a single color by default, they should at least make all of them red instead of white.
Tracers were red in the rifle caliber weapons on both sides. Spits, Hurricane, British bomber gunner, German bomber gunner, German 8mm mg's on fighters and all italian planes as well. All had red tracers.
Why did they decide to go with white? :confused:

[Dano]

I hope they don't keep all tracers white by default. It doesn't do much if i can only change tracers in my plane.
If they want to go with a single color by default, they should at least make all of them red instead of white.
Tracers were red in the rifle caliber weapons on both sides. Spits, Hurricane, british bomber gunner, german bomber gunner and german 8mm mg's on fighters. All had red tracers.
Why did they decide to go with white? :confused:

They didn't, that's just all you've seen so far, they will be correct historical colours.

[Vasilj_Mitu]

swiss, if you wanna diss someone, at least give the man full treatment. Please do not use some lame knock-off products.



now, go to your mommy and tell her how cool you made yourself look today at the forums.

[Jaws2002]

They didn't, that's just all you've seen so far, they will be correct historical colours.

That's all that matter.:grin:

Thank you.:-P

[fireship4]

no need to be abusive swiss, and just because luthier says something it doesn't mean people cant discuss it and have their own opinion. I myself would favour tracers be more orb-like but then again I haven't seen them with my own eyes.

seeing people post pictures as replies and trolling makes me sad.

[ChrisDNT]

"of course they are. if in place of your eyes you have camera lens and shutter working on slower speeds than your usual vision is, then they are perfect."

That's right, "lasers" are to be seen when recorded on videos or on photos, but not when directely see by human eyes (I've been AA gunner on 20mm canons).

I do hope that the "lasers" could be switchable in the game setup, as an effect, because there are "an effect".

[Sturm_Williger]

...
I know this tracer discussions sounds silly, boring, tiresome and above all nitpicking... but to me they will not look natural and bring more to the game immersion-wise just because Luthier says they are perfect.

Thing is ... I've not seen real tracers and a lot of people who will buy the game haven't either. I've only seen video which as has been mentioned, is not how they look to the eye.

So they don't look un-natural to me and nor will they bring any more immersion-wise if they are changed to what you are proposing ( er.. what are you proposing they look like ? )

So simple economics dictates that the devs aren't going to spend more time tweaking something that only 1%-5% of potential customers are likely to notice are not quite 100% "real" looking. And even then, I tend to believe that the devs may actually have looked at tracers too and be pretty close.

[ChrisDNT]

Vasilj_Mitu, dont' care too much about Swiss (1), he's just compeeting on the "who's the top fanboï" competition.



(1) as I'm Swiss too, please don't believe all Swiss are like "Swiss".

[ChrisDNT]

"So they don't look un-natural..."

They are completely un-natural, as least for the cannon I served on (the Oerlikon 54, basically a WWII improved design), never saw during all my military service as a gunner any "lasers". What you see, when you fire is some kind of "group of points" (the glowing backs of the bullets).

[swiss]

no need to be abusive swiss, and just because luthier says something it doesn't mean people cant discuss it and have their own opinion.

Sure they can have their opinion. We had this discussion already, it's not gonna change. What should this discussion be good for?

[philip.ed]

Handbags at dawn....

[robtek]

"So they don't look un-natural..."

They are completely un-natural, as least for the cannon I served on (the Oerlikon 54, basically a WWII improved design), never saw during all my military service as a gunner any "lasers". What you see, when you fire is some kind of "group of points" (the glowing backs of the bullets).

And thats exactly what you see in this game with the timing set to "short" in the recording settings!

[ChrisDNT]

"And thats exactly what you see in this game with the timing set to "short" in the recording settings!"

So, it's perfect, if it is settable this way.

[ChrisDNT]

Swiss, are you some kind of moderator ?

If not...

[swiss]

(1) as I'm Swiss too, please don't believe all Swiss are like "Swiss".

I guess they don't - otherwise that would turn the whole U.S.A. into "Bush's" own country. As we know, they are not.

Btw, which part?

[winny]

Can I just pose some questions here..

Does anyone think that Maddox games thought that tracers were unimportant in a combat flight sim?
Or that they might just have done a little bit of research? (seeing how they are billing it as the most advnced Combat flight sim to date)

And by research I don't mean looking at gun cam footage on youtube.

If the devs say they are right then I'm inclined to believe them, it's their job, and they've been doing it for a long time.

I'll put it another way, someone prove to me that they are wrong.

[Vasilj_Mitu]

imho, when Luthier said that the tracers look perfect, I think he wanted people to stop whining about such small detail in that thread. to be quite honest, at that moment I also thought it to be nitpicking and complete waste of time to bitch about it. but when people start to take statements like Luthier's as axiom, without any backing of it... then it's time to start asking questions, no matter how dumb or annoying they might seem. I had some experience with firing the tracers from AK47 during my military service, but I wouldn't call myself an expert on the matter, since that wasn't aerial gunnery. and yes, they looked as group of bright dots in the daylight, without elongated light streaks effect. but, I might be wrong there. where I'm almost positive that I'm not wrong is this:

if we have a random tracer bullet whose construction usually is like this:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/tracer.gif

meaning, that the tracer mixture is in the recess of it's base. so now, how come that we can see product of that mixture burning when bullet is fired in our direction in COD movies? wouldn't that defy the better part of tracer's purpose?

[White Owl]

Without having any sources ready to cite offhand, I know I've read multiple reports from combat pilots who described seeing enemy tracers flying towards them. However you need to bend your understanding of how it works, yes, they are visible from the front.

[swiss]

wouldn't that defy the better part of tracer's purpose?

Which purpose?

You use tracers for two reasons:

- mark a target (inf.)
- observe where the bullet goes(tanks, airplanes, inf at night)

And yes, you give away your position.
Even if your target does no observe the tracers, anybody with a slightly different angle will - and ricochets offer a nice firework for everybody.
Oh - and there's the muzzle flash too.

I doubt you will find a unit using tracers for covert ops. ;)

[Heliocon]

Well if you are firing tracers they "should" be seen clearly as dots. As you move away from the point of origin (the gun) the more you move to a side x/y view instead of z the more it looks like a "streak". But it seems to me maybe more of a speed problem? They move incredibly fast and realy are not something you clearly "see" at a close distance, or unless you are behind them watching them. Put it this way, they move too fast for your eye to actually follow, translated onto a monitor I am not so sure though.

[Erkki]

imho, when Luthier said that the tracers look perfect, I think he wanted people to stop whining about such small detail in that thread. to be quite honest, at that moment I also thought it to be nitpicking and complete waste of time to bitch about it. but when people start to take statements like Luthier's as axiom, without any backing of it... then it's time to start asking questions, no matter how dumb or annoying they might seem. I had some experience with firing the tracers from AK47 during my military service, but I wouldn't call myself an expert on the matter, since that wasn't aerial gunnery. and yes, they looked as group of bright dots in the daylight, without elongated light streaks effect. but, I might be wrong there. where I'm almost positive that I'm not wrong is this:

if we have a random tracer bullet whose construction usually is like this:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/tracer.gif

meaning, that the tracer mixture is in the recess of it's base. so now, how come that we can see product of that mixture burning when bullet is fired in our direction in COD movies? wouldn't that defy the better part of tracer's purpose?

If you've seen tracers from the side, they're just like in the latest CoD videos. Lasers, that turn down to an arc only further away whilst slowing down. With the yet-to-be-seen mad ricocheting when they hit something. Thats where George Lucas got the idea for the famous Star Wars lasers! ;)

[xnomad]

I agree with Heliocon. I would imagine that when firing from near your line of sight the tracer would look like a dot, and from a more perpendicular angle it would look like a laser.

So the question to ChrisDNT is; Did you ever observe the 20mm tracer being fired by somebody else from a bit further away, rather than co-axial with the bore?

I've no experience with tracers but I know sparklers make a trail with just the speed of a hand wave :-D so I could imagine the 'laser effect'.

[Vasilj_Mitu]

However you need to bend your understanding of how it works, yes, they are visible from the front.

got no problem with that bending, just needed a sound proof of it.

[ChrisDNT]

"Does anyone think that Maddox games thought that tracers were unimportant in a combat flight sim? "

In a COMBAT sim, tracers are as much important as CLOUDS in an aviation sim.

[ChrisDNT]

"they looked as group of bright dots in the daylight, without elongated light streaks effect. but, I might be wrong there..."

No, you're right.

I just remember we technically called this group as a "sheaf".

[ChrisDNT]

"So the question to ChrisDNT is; Did you ever observe the 20mm tracer being fired by somebody else from a bit further away, rather than co-axial with the bore? "

Of course yes.
When near the canon (again, I can only speak for the Oerlikon54, basically a WII design), either as a gunner or a loader, you don't see anything (bullets are too fast when going out of the canon tube), but after some hundred meters, you see the back of the bullets as points, NOT AS LINES. The more far the bullets are, the slower the dots are to be seen of course (quite slow I must say, nothing like the speed of a "laser"). When the canon has been firmly held, the dots build a quite concentrated sheaf (called "the dangerous zone"), but if the canon has not been firmly held, you see the dots forming what we called a "banana" :grin:

If I remember well, the first Il-2 described this aspect quite correctly.



P.S: I will try if I can find my manuals somewhere and I will also contact an old friend of mine, who was for years engineer by Oerlikon.

[Vasilj_Mitu]

"but, I might be wrong there..." was in regard to shooter's position, as it's probably different to observe the tracer effects when firing from the shoulder/behind the gun from the one position where you sit in the cockpit above the guns, as in aircraft.

[ChrisDNT]

"but, I might be wrong there..." was in regard to shooter's position, as it's probably different to observe the tracer effects when firing from the shoulder/behind the gun from the one position where you sit in the cockpit above the guns, as in aircraft.


Not really, I remember having seen the canons firing from some distance, even outside the gunning area, never saw any "lasers".

[Defender]

LASER:

Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation

The tracers in COD look nothing like lasers, lasers are focused continual beams of light, not individual bolts of energy.

Tracer rounds in WWII planes are meant as an aiming aid, so they're quite obviously visible from directly behind so that the gunner can see where his shots are going. Of course it the streaks lengthen as you move out to the x axis and they're moving so fast the eye behaves like a camera shudder creating glorified streaks.

[ChrisDNT]

"Of course it the streaks lengthen as you move out to the x axis and they're moving so fast the eye behaves like a camera shudder creating glorified streaks."

In real life, this is exactly the contrary. The nearer the bullets are from you, you could perhaps see some kind of "light line" outside the canon tube, but when the bullets are far from you (especially true at around 800-1200 meters) the tracers look like dots moving quite slowly.

[The Kraken]

Like this? ;)

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/shot_20100716_143242.jpg

[Royraiden]

My only complaint is that they look too white and too bright.So Im pretty sure that's gonna be fixed soon after release,maybe by the devs or maybe by a modder.

[AA_Absolute]

I remember color lens if you look near sun in first versions of il2, beautiful camera effect but fake, removed now, good move to real.

Remove "sperm" tracerts of guncams another camera effect and good move to real.

If long tracers effect (aka lasers) are camera effects i dont like it, i wait Oleg and team remove (or make switch to disable) if are fake.

I´ve hope in Oleg and team love to detail.

Sorry for uglish

[T}{OR]

My only complaint is that they look too white and too bright.

Isn't that the main logic behind tracers?


So Im pretty sure that's gonna be fixed soon after release,maybe by the devs or maybe by a modder.

Hopefully not by a modder.

[=WF=RAW]

Many times before, Oleg and his team says "we have all correct in our IL-2", but everybody knows, that it's not true.
so if luthier says something about "perfect tracers" it is not the "holy absolutely true", on which we must "pray"!
we will just see when we get the game. lets be patient.

[Royraiden]

Isn't that the main logic behind tracers?




Hopefully not by a modder.

I just watched several videos of tracers shot at night and during the day.At night they do look almost exactly as the videos we have seen already from the game.But during the day they look shorter and obviously not so bright.But I havent seen a white tracer, most are orange.Maybe during the war they were white??I really dont know.

[Erkki]

A camera's shutter speed is from 1/100 up to 1/2500-3000 in daylight. Animations start working for a human eye after 1/25.

edit: afaik the tracers appear white in guncams(colour ones...) because especially old films are very sensitive to IR light. The tracers simply burn through.

You can find some US kamikaze-footage taken in the dawn/sunset and even night, you can see the full spectrum of the tracers in them. I thought both sides used mainly red, like in il2, for rifle cal rounds.

[Royraiden]

A camera's shutter speed is from 1/100 up to 1/2500-3000 in daylight. Animations start working for a human eye after 1/25.

Shame on me!!!Ok thats through a camera.The human eye works in a similar way,during the day the tracers should appear shorter.

[Erkki]

I dont think the "shutter speed" improves. :D But pupil lets in more light.

But yeah, in dark enough all light "burns in" your eye for some time... But it didnt happen, to me, with the tracers. Wasnt all pitch black though, but the perfectly clear star sky(edit, all 3 times actually). The tracers are bright but not that bright, and they're gone quick anyways.

[Royraiden]

The aperture on a lens mimics the human pupil.The bigger it gets, the more light comes in.Also from the videos I saw,the tracers look larger when you look at them closer to a perpendicular angle,so being on a parallel angle with the tracers should result in them looking even shorter.Anyways we really dont know if those are the final tracers.We should wait and see.

[Erkki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5slCTLrFHI

1:50 onwards, then later when the B6N approaches very low. With the longer shutter speed and dark background the tracers finally start to have some colour a human eye would see... And they're red star wars lasers! :grin:

[Royraiden]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5slCTLrFHI

1:50 onwards, then later when the B6N approaches very low. With the longer shutter speed and dark background the tracers finally start to have some colour a human eye would see... And they're red star wars lasers! :grin:

Nice footage.I have to admit that most of those look white,some orange,and the rest obviously red.But werent those higher caliber than the machine guns used on airplanes?

[Itkovian]

Well, the nice bit about that video is it does show the smoke trails these tracers left, which is one of the visual elements I rather like (for example, BoB2 does those pretty well).

Itkovian

[Erkki]

I think they're mainly 20mm Oerlikons.

[ChrisDNT]

Like this? ;)

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/shot_20100716_143242.jpg


Yep, Kraken, exactly like this, what I see here looks perfect to me.

[Royraiden]

Yep, Kraken, exactly like this, what I see here looks perfect to me.

Definitely.

[Biggs]

it really doesn't matter what any of us think about the tracers in the vids (bad or good), as they are both beta leaks... and dont represent the final build.

In case any of you missed it....
Just so you guys know, this is a rare case of a true leak, i.e. not a marketing ploy but a real rogue user doing something really lame for self-promotion.

The stuff you're seeing is obviously from a beta, not indicative of release, and I'm really way too upset to address this in a calm manner at this time.

The person who leaked this is a personal friend of one of our programmers. I anticipated exactly this kind of issue, Oleg warned me about this specifically. The programmer asked us to give his buddy beta access as a personal favor to him, and I in turn took the responsibility on myself. I got chewed up for this big time, and I'm seriously considering letting the programmer go. It goes without saying that the author's beta access is revoked, and I'm cutting all further communication with him.

We caught this a bit too late, by which time it was way too late to try to delete it, so we'll let you guys continue discussing it but probably won't check the thread or respond to anything related to these videos.

We'll release final gameplay videos once we go gold, where you can judge the features that are shipping with release.

[ChrisDNT]

"it really doesn't matter what any of us think about the tracers in the vids (bad or good), as they are both beta leaks... and dont represent the final build."

Fanbois are so repetitive, they always act like some zelots of a sect, even if the guru asked them nothing !

Discussing about tracers in a COMBAT sim is by nature interesting. And if what we have seen is perhaps not final, it's nevertheless an indication of what could become final.
And according to my 10 years experience as an AA gunner, I find the latest picture (with the Me110) quite convincing (irregular shapes and color of the dots really well done, perhaps just a little transparency more and its' perfect).

[Biggs]

"it really doesn't matter what any of us think about the tracers in the vids (bad or good), as they are both beta leaks... and dont represent the final build."

Fanbois are so repetitive, they always act like some zelots of a sect, even if the guru asked them nothing !

Discussing about tracers in a COMBAT sim is by nature interesting. And if what we have seen is perhaps not final, it's nevertheless an indication of what could become final.
And according to my 10 years experience as an AA gunner, I find the latest picture (with the Me110) quite convincing (irregular shapes and color of the dots really well done, perhaps just a little transparency more and its' perfect).

keeps your pants on buddy. I wasnt referring to the people talking about tracers in a general conversation, I was talking about the people (zealots, if you dont mind me borrowing your phrase) that are up in arms about the 'horrible tracers' in the two vids that were put up yesterday.

[swiss]

And according to my 10 years experience as an AA gunner

You may want to add those 10 years are in fact some 300days.
Which firing range did you use; S-chanf?


And I dare to ask again: Which part of Switzerland are you from?

[Blackdog_kt]

"it really doesn't matter what any of us think about the tracers in the vids (bad or good), as they are both beta leaks... and dont represent the final build."

Fanbois are so repetitive, they always act like some zelots of a sect, even if the guru asked them nothing !

Discussing about tracers in a COMBAT sim is by nature interesting. And if what we have seen is perhaps not final, it's nevertheless an indication of what could become final.
And according to my 10 years experience as an AA gunner, I find the latest picture (with the Me110) quite convincing (irregular shapes and color of the dots really well done, perhaps just a little transparency more and its' perfect).

I've done a year of service as a conscript in the local air force and also received flak gunner training, so i've fired a few rounds on a 20mm dual-barreled rheinmetal RH-20 at a high angle of gun elevation.
My observation was that to the human eye, the tracer looked like a short, thin streak of yellow/white light when it was near the gun (and the gunner's viewpoint as a result). However, it moved away so fast that it took less than a second for it to become a small bright dot, just like in the 110 picture.

What this does is create the illusion that the shell is slowing down significantly more than it really is, because you see a thin streak near you moving with extreme speed turn into a small, easy to track dot within less than a second.

As a sidenote to this, i hope the speed of sound is modeled in the sim. What i really liked about firing those AA guns was how the tracer would arc up like i described then there was nothing and bit of silence, but within seconds from firing the gun we would all see small white puffs of cloud. The shells have a self destruct fuse to prevent falling down on friendlies if they miss, which they will do a lot as it's a barrage fire weapon and not a precision one...think of the small flak in IL2 that gives off a load of small puffs of white smoke, it's actually pretty close to what i saw in real life.
So, the thing is, you could see those little puffs of smoke about 2-2.5km away but you couldn't hear the explosion until a few seconds later, when a series of muffled and distorted thumps would start echoing in succession.

In any case, that screenshot of the 110 shows something which looks realistic enough and yet it happens to be one of the screenies that got royally chewed when it was released :grin:
The encouraging thing in all this is that it's now obvious the shutter speeds will be adjustable to create the kind of view we want when snapping screenshots or making videos.
I think it has been talked about by the developers themselves, but it can also be confirmed by simple comparisons: the same type of gun having different looking tracers from one screenshot to the next, plus in one of the recent videos on a Russian gaming site the propellers change from visible discs to totally invisible between different parts of the video.

[swiss]

As a sidenote to this, i hope the speed of sound is modeled in the sim.

That would so rock - and shockwaves for the bombs too.

[ChrisDNT]

"My observation was that to the human eye, the tracer looked like a short, thin streak of yellow/white light when it was near the gun (and the gunner's viewpoint as a result). However, it moved away so fast that it took less than a second for it to become a small bright dot, just like in the 110 picture."

Exactly, perfectly described.

[Erkki]

Blackdog;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7uWhp_aMZg

Again, its just a camera-shot record, but still.

[Blackdog_kt]

Erkki, the colour and how thin the tracers look in the picture match exactly what i saw in real life.

What doesn't match is the length. In reality, they would appear shorter when close to the observer (that is, when leaving the barrel) and almost immediately "shrink" to the size of a dot, just like the ones in the 110 picture.

Of course, the human eye is like a camera shutter too in some respects and if we accept that variation in "eye specs" between most people is less than the variation between human eye and camera, then we should all perceive motion in a more or less similar manner.
In this case, the type of shell being fired will also have a small effect on how we see it. For example, a faster shell will produce the impression of a longer streak.
That being said, i think the guns in your video are Oerlikon 30mm or 35mm guns. They are different from the ones i fired but maybe not perceived as too different by the human eye, as it was a 20mm cannon itself and their muzzle velocities might be in the same speed range.

For a better explanation of how those rheinmetalls i fired looked in real life, it was like having the length, width and "reduction to a dot at a distance" effect of the machine gun rounds in the videos posted in the first page of the thread, but with the speed and colour of the tracers in your video. I hope this makes sense :grin:

[choctaw111]

For those of you who have never seen tracers being fired in person, why argue about someting you have never actually seen?
Tracers appear as streaks, just like in Star Wars.
Where do you think George Lucas got his inspiratiation? From dogfighting gun camera film and movies showing anti aircraft fire.
Anything this size moving at 2000 miles per hour will appear as a streak.
From what I have seen of the movies and sceenshots of Cliffs of Dover, Ilya is right, they are perfect and I am happy to finally have tracers that look realistic.

[Upthair]

I want to emphasize one point that has been mentioned. Please look at this photo, in which the man is Picasso,

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/55957033.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A1459E2F525F971E2B7AB74586450158E72 997E0199E67181A7B01E70F2B3269972

The bright line (yes, that is one single line) is a camera's view of Picasso's torch, also a "tracer". The line is so long and even, only because the exposure time of the camera was very long, to the extent that during this period Picasso was able to draw the whole "bull" in the air. What the camera "saw" is a bull, while the human eye would of course only see the moving torch.

There is of course similarity between the way in which the human eye works and that of the camera, but such similarity (not identity) only exists in the optical part of the human eyeball, the neural mechanism of the eye and visual cortex being missing in the case of the camera. It a complex subject that perhaps psychologists on percerption know much about, but it is certain that what a camera sees is not exactly what a human sees.

Another example: a human can be dazzled by bright muzzle flash of a cannon, but not by a photo of the muzzle flash, meaning that the camera cannot reproduce enough gradations of bright light that a human eye can tell.

So movies of tracers and gun camera film are not good arguments when tracers are discusssed, unless it is the aim of CoD to simulate only the camera's view.

Although I myself have never in person seen tracers being fired, I have doubt that the "light rod" of each tracer should be of both the same brightness and the same width from beginning to end.

~

[speculum jockey]

Although I myself have never in person seen tracers being fired, but I have doubt that the "light rod" of each tracer should be of both the same brightness and the same width from beginning to end.

~

I've shot 8mm tracer ammunition (WWII vintage stuff) out of my Mauser and it's pretty much just like the videos and the pics from SOW. When you fire it, it looks like you are lobbing a bright dot since you can see the rise and fall of the bullet along its path. When looking from the side it looks just like star wars, long streaks or laser bolts. In my experience they look almost exactly alike on and off camera.

Here are some videos.

This one shows .22 tracers during the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCsv30xysHA

Here are rifle calibre rounds approaching the camera at night. I'm not sure how visible they would be during the day from this angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1iXp5m8ovE

Sometimes you can't see them at all during the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1j2PBYroNM

Tracers in .45 ACP?!?! Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kNH3_cytE

Generally speaking, they have done a pretty good job on the tracers, but I'm wondering how visible they will be when they are between a light source and you.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Tracers in .45 ACP?!?! Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kNH3_cytE


I would hazard a guess for submachine guns like the Thompson, M3 grease gun and Owen.
Cheers

[speculum jockey]

I would hazard a guess for submachine guns like the Thompson, M3 grease gun and Owen.
Cheers

I'm thinking more for people who have more money than sense given the muzzle velocity and effective range of the .45 ACP round.

[Erkki]

For those of you who have never seen tracers being fired in person, why argue about someting you have never actually seen?
Tracers appear as streaks, just like in Star Wars.
Where do you think George Lucas got his inspiratiation? From dogfighting gun camera film and movies showing anti aircraft fire.
Anything this size moving at 2000 miles per hour will appear as a streak.
From what I have seen of the movies and sceenshots of Cliffs of Dover, Ilya is right, they are perfect and I am happy to finally have tracers that look realistic.

You said it! :cool:

[AA_Absolute]

For those of you who have never seen tracers being fired in person, why argue about someting you have never actually seen?


Right!

[ChrisDNT]

"What doesn't match is the length. In reality, they would appear shorter when close to the observer (that is, when leaving the barrel) and almost immediately "shrink" to the size of a dot, just like the ones in the 110 picture."

Once again, this is a perfect description on how it shows in reality.

[Robotic Pope]

"What doesn't match is the length. In reality, they would appear shorter when close to the observer (that is, when leaving the barrel) and almost immediately "shrink" to the size of a dot, just like the ones in the 110 picture."

Once again, this is a perfect description on how it shows in reality.

This is right. Just like in a car at high speed on a dual carrigeway, look out the side window towards your side of the road at close trees as they pass by and the leaves are just a blur. The leaves on the trees slightly ahead of you though are easy to focus on, as are the ones on the other side of the road as you pass by them.

[choctaw111]

"What doesn't match is the length. In reality, they would appear shorter when close to the observer (that is, when leaving the barrel) and almost immediately "shrink" to the size of a dot, just like the ones in the 110 picture."

Once again, this is a perfect description on how it shows in reality.

A tracer that is viewed from directly behind will appear as a dot, yes, BUT a tracer viewed from the side or even a little off center, just like machine guns or cannon in the wings from a pilots perspective, will appear enlongated and also appear to have the same thickness for the entire length, just as appears in Cliffs of Dover.

I don't see anyone who has actually seen tracer fire complaining in this forum about how they look in CoD but rather saying how good they look. Doesn't that really say it all?
I have seen and fired hundreds of thousands (estimated) during my time as a Paratrooper and the CoD tracers look great!

[Robotic Pope]

A tracer that is viewed from directly behind will appear as a dot, yes, BUT a tracer viewed from the side or even a little off center, just like machine guns or cannon in the wings from a pilots perspective, will appear enlongated and also appear to have the same thickness for the entire length, just as appears in Cliffs of Dover.

I don't see anyone who has actually seen tracer fire complaining in this forum about how they look in CoD but rather saying how good they look. Doesn't that really say it all?
I have seen and fired hundreds of thousands (estimated) during my time as a Paratrooper and the CoD tracers look great!

yes, although if viewed side on from a distance away the same tracers would appear to that person as dots. If that person started videoing the tracer it would then appear on the film as lasers.

The laser effect you see with your eyes is caused because your brain cannot percieve detail at that speed just like waving your hand infront of your face. While the camera Laser effect is caused by long exposure to the light and nothing to do with speed. Two separate phenomanons.

[choctaw111]

yes, although if viewed side on from a distance away the same tracers would appear to that person as dots. If that person started videoing the tracer it would then appear on the film as lasers.

The laser effect you see with your eyes is caused because your brain cannot percieve detail at that speed just like waving your hand infront of your face. While the camera Laser effect is caused by long exposure to the light and nothing to do with speed. Two separate phenomanons.

Yes, from a distance and viewed from the side, they would look like dots, in film also.
The closer you are, the more the apparent speed seems to be and they will look more like streaks than dots both on film and the naked eye. When I say film, I am not talking about digital film, as many digital cameras may film 30 fps or more, but have extremely short exposure times which are NOT consistent with the sensitivity of the human eye.
I am not so sure what so many people cannot understand about this seemingly easy to grasp concept.

Edit...
I wanted to mention that when Ilya says the tracers are perfect, he is referring to the fact that from the observers viewpoint, apparent speed and distance are taken into account and therefore the tracers will appear as dots from behind and at a distance from the side view, or as streaks as you move closer and the tracer moves across your field of view at a faster rate.

[Robotic Pope]

Edit...
I wanted to mention that when Ilya says the tracers are perfect, he is referring to the fact that from the observers viewpoint, apparent speed and distance are taken into account and therefore the tracers will appear as dots from behind and at a distance from the side view, or as streaks as you move closer and the tracer moves across your field of view at a faster rate.

Agreed, This is how it should be.

[The Kraken]

I don't see anyone who has actually seen tracer fire complaining in this forum about how they look in CoD but rather saying how good they look.

You should check again then. For me, who never had the pleasure of firing tracers or witnessing them in real life, it's quite confusing that some who apparently have real-life experience, are saying CoD's tracers look perfect, and some say the opposite. But then again we've already had this with flight models and what have you :-P

Anyway, maybe through those "virtual camera settings" mentioned by Oleg the effect is customizable enough that everyone is happy in the end. As in the image I linked above there seems to be quite some difference in rendering (and we've also seen pictures where the tracers are indeed only small points even from the side). Then again this setting may affect the prop rendering at the same time... :confused:

[Slechtvalk]

I don't worry about tracers, but ''bullet drop', hope they drop enough.. with il-2 they go pretty straight in my eyes at least.. (especially after some old patch).

[The Kraken]

In any case, that screenshot of the 110 shows something which looks realistic enough and yet it happens to be one of the screenies that got royally chewed when it was released :grin:

In fact that's more or less why I remembered it: pretty much the first shot with tracers in action, and all that people were commenting on was the ground graphics (which was still set to low anyway). Go figure... ;)

[BigPickle]

:grin:
I can solve this tracers issue right now from personal experience.

You can see tracers coming towards you.
Example of this is hold a torch, turn it on, face it away from you. Can you still see the light flare at the base of the torch? Yes you can? Well imagine that torch to be a small blob of buring phosphorus, you will see it. You might not see every tracer but 1 out of 30 bangs home the message :grin:

The tracers will be good in COD.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

I don't worry about tracers, but ''bullet drop', hope they drop enough.. with il-2 they go pretty straight in my eyes at least.. (especially after some old patch).

One of the first things I've read on here was about Luthier having to learn how to shoot again. I'm very curious now about the .303s and realistic gunnery, this could get interesting...

[Upthair]

Although I myself have never in person seen tracers being fired, but I have doubt that the "light rod" of each tracer should be of both the same brightness and the same width from beginning to end.
I've shot 8mm tracer ammunition (WWII vintage stuff) out of my Mauser and it's pretty much just like the videos and the pics from SOW. When you fire it, it looks like you are lobbing a bright dot since you can see the rise and fall of the bullet along its path. When looking from the side it looks just like star wars, long streaks or laser bolts. In my experience they look almost exactly alike on and off camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3kNH3_cytE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The vidoe above, which you selected to show I was wrong, actually proves my doubt. Please look at the following pictures captured from the video.

In either picture, the tracer "light rod" has both varying brightness and varying diametre (thickness) from head to tail. The fact is too clear to be overlooked.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4663&stc=1&d=1297821161

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4664&stc=1&d=1297821161

More can be captured from the video but these two are enough. In addition, the absence of homogeneity (eg, in terms of brightness) along a tracer "light rod" in the air may not be visible at night, because all parts of it are too bright in darkness, so that the camera or the human eye will most probably register all parts as "maximum brightness".

Some people may have also noticed that the distance between the tracer and the camera can play a part in influencing what the tracer looks like in the film - which is quite natural, since the nearer you are, the more details you get.

As I said, what tracers look like is a complex subject.

~

[Skoshi Tiger]

Ha!

Just got a call from my Bro'. He was given a mixed box of about 20 WWII vintage .303 rounds. From the Head Stamps two apear to be tracers.

We've been looking for a excuse to get our Lee Endfields out from the safes and run a few rounds through them.

Now we just need to wait for our Total Fire Ban to end and then get tickets of leave from our lovely spouses for a day.

By the end of August I may just get a chance to see a tracer in person!

Cheers! ;)

[choctaw111]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The vidoe above, which you selected to show I was wrong, actually proves my doubt. Please look at the following pictures captured from the video.

In either picture, the tracer "light rod" has both varying brightness and varying diametre (thickness) from head to tail. The fact is too clear to be overlooked.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4663&stc=1&d=1297821161

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4664&stc=1&d=1297821161

More can be captured from the video but these two are enough. In addition, the absence of homogeneity (eg, in terms of brightness) along a tracer "light rod" in the air may not be visible at night, because all parts of it are too bright in darkness, so that the camera or the human eye will most probably register all parts as "maximum brightness".

Some people may have also noticed that the distance between the tracer and the camera can play a part in influencing what the tracer looks like in the film - which is quite natural, since the nearer you are, the more details you get.

As I said, what tracers look like is a complex subject.

~

You two "proof" photos are only showing that the tracer has just lit as it is coming out of the barrel and takes a foot or two to reach full brightness, nothing more.
Take a look at the tracers after they reach full brightness. Their width is the same down the length of the trace.
On film and in the human eye the brighter a small object becomes, the bigger, or wider in this case, it appears.
As far as their appearance being a complex subject, I agree as much as saying that a simulated tracer must be dynamic to be realistic. It must be able to have varying lengths depending on apparent speed to the observer.
This is what Ilya is talking about when he says that the tracers are perfect as this is taken into account.

[speculum jockey]

You two "proof" photos are only showing that the tracer has just lit as it is coming out of the barrel and takes a foot or two to reach full brightness, nothing more.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Another thing that people should take into accound when looking at modern tracers used by the military (in the past 30 years) is that they have a delayed start, so that they will go a hundred yards or more before lighting. This is to keep the operator from being blinded in low-light or night situations and it also has the benefit of not giving the enemy a perfect line to where the gunfire is coming from.

Also that is .45ACP, quite possibly the slowest tracer ammo avaliable in the world (do muskets have tracers?). So it is not going to behave exactly like something traveling 3-4x faster than it.

[123-Wulf-123]

So much BS and nitpicking over an effect which I am SURE the dev team have got right, geez louise :rolleyes:

You guys must have little to do with your time if you can spend so much time and effort endlessly arguing about this, god help us all when the game is finally released and you start arguing about the size of fields/haystacks/trees etc ad infinitum :rolleyes:

[choctaw111]

So much BS and nitpicking over an effect which I am SURE the dev team have got right, geez louise :rolleyes:

You guys must have little to do with your time if you can spend so much time and effort endlessly arguing about this, god help us all when the game is finally released and you start arguing about the size of fields/haystacks/trees etc ad infinitum :rolleyes:

You may be more right than you know. I'm retired and have plenty of time for this:)
It actually entertains me.
I was only trying to clarify some misconceptions ;)

[Upthair]

You two "proof" photos are only showing that the tracer has just lit as it is coming out of the barrel and takes a foot or two to reach full brightness, nothing more.
Taking a foot or two to reach full brightness? Maybe, and maybe not.


Take a look at the tracers after they reach full brightness. Their width is the same down the length of the trace.

Take a look:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4672&stc=1&d=1297903885

If you still say this one bullet has just lit out there, then the "just lit" part is even brighter.

If it is argued that distance is the reason why the nearer end is brighter than the farther end, then this reasoning applies to all vidoes where each tracer segment has homogeneous brightness and width from beginnnig to end. In other words, when a vidoe show that the tracer segments have the same brightness and width down their length, that is because "distance" intervened, and actually they are not homogeneous.

~

[speculum jockey]

Take a look:

If you still say this one bullet has just lit out there, then the "just lit" part is even brighter. ~

You do realise that the "lit part" is the only part making that light, right? It's not a glowing tube with a burning end, it's an illusion created by your eye and brain.

Now this is where the camera and eye start to differ, and where compression, framerate and lens quality fall short.

The tracers in Cliffs of Dover are accurate. This is coming from the people who made them, and the people who have actually seen and fired real tracers in real life!

[Novotny]

*idiot hat put on*

If it ain't on youtube it ain't real.

[Upthair]

You do realise that the "lit part" is the only part making that light, right? It's not a glowing tube with a burning end, it's an illusion created by your eye and brain.

Now this is where the camera and eye start to differ, and where compression, framerate and lens quality fall short.

What you said here had already been implied or emphasized in my first post in this thread.

[BOBC]

Having had some ideas on tracer I see this thread with the same thoughts of naked eye v camera effect. see my argument at http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32624 and what may be a PC monitor limitation .

I certainly cannot understand how a tracer round can flash on and off so giving us a dashed line, and it cant be seen as one long streak of light, how can it still glow at 0.1inch from barrel and be glowing 250 yds from barrel, in reality that is, but it could on a slow fps film camera, where the film frame was exposed for the length of time it took to do 250 yds.

The arguments put fwd as videos are null and void as they are how cameras capture it. They illustrate my very reasoning.

A video here showing what I feel we would see in reality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx5aR1Knpb8&feature=player_embedded

BOBC

[Freycinet]

That looks exactly like what I see in CoD

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Aside from the slightly out of focus blur which causes the rounds to look like "blobs" that's what tracers look like. They are smaller points of light, for lack of a better term, not quite as large as what shows on that film.

[BOBC]

If thats what CloD now has thats great news.

Cant find a youtube of it yet but no doubt one will be made soon.

What colour are they ?

BOBC

[GF_Mastiff]

*idiot hat put on*

If it ain't on youtube it ain't real.
theres a State Farm commercial that just cracks me up!


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