Beaufighter: why isn't the rear observer position usable?

[Polybius]

The beau has absolutely no rearward visibility. To remedy this there is a rear observer sat in a little bubble at the back of the plane however it is not usable by the player. We can see him sat there in third person but can't swap seats from within the plane to have a look around. Not having any rear view is somewhat crippling and being able to control the observer would go a long way towards making the beau more viable and realistic on closed pit difficulty.

Is there any particular reason why we can't use the seat or is it just an oversight?

[Katkatman]

No weapons on this seat in the original game, then this one is useless...
On the other hand if the DT goes to model the radar on IL2, this seat should be usable (that was radar operator who's seating on this).

[Furio]

No weapons on this seat in the original game, then this one is useless...
On the other hand if the DT goes to model the radar on IL2, this seat should be usable (that was radar operator who's seating on this).

Rear gun was added only on late model strike “Torbeaus”.

[Flying Pencil]

The primary duty of the rear was to change the ammo drums for the 4 cannons.
Likely did radio operator work as well, navigation, etc.

I do see versions where he had a BB gun with limited arc to shoot with, but that was removed.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

The Australian contingent of this community would greatly appreciate the modelling and inclusion of the rear observer's seat on the Beau. The blind spot which it currently suffers is not realistic considering the observer would have warned of incoming threats.

I believe that within this sim, the actual tasks of the observer are secondary to that of his providing realistic situational awareness.

This request has been made to TD in the appropriate thread above a long time ago but we haven't heard anything since. We'd like to think it's on the long list of things still pending.

[TinyTim]

Quiet guy, no doubt. A squadron of Bf 109s could be stalking you yet he'd simply keep his mouth shut. I can live with no cockpit switch, just teach him how to use the damn intercom.

[Skoshi Tiger]

The Australian contingent of this community would greatly appreciate the modelling and inclusion of the rear observer's seat on the Beau. The blind spot which it currently suffers is not realistic considering the observer would have warned of incoming threats.
QUOTE]
+1


[QUOTE=TinyTim;210816]Quiet guy, no doubt. A squadron of Bf 109s could be stalking you yet he'd simply keep his mouth shut. I can live with no cockpit switch, just teach him how to use the damn intercom.

I assumed he had just bailed out at the first sign of a 109!!!!!! ;)

Cheers

[Avimimus]

The Australian contingent of this community would greatly appreciate the modelling and inclusion of the rear observer's seat on the Beau. The blind spot which it currently suffers is not realistic considering the observer would have warned of incoming threats.

I believe that within this sim, the actual tasks of the observer are secondary to that of his providing realistic situational awareness.

This request has been made to TD in the appropriate thread above a long time ago but we haven't heard anything since. We'd like to think it's on the long list of things still pending.

+1

It isn't about a 0.303 guys, it is about something more important.

I wonder how much of the cockpit can be seen from the bubble? It might be possible to model the view from the bubble without having to model much else.

[Igo kyu]

It isn't about a 0.303 guys, it is about something more important.
I'd like a 0.303 please.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

I'm pretty sure that the DAP Bristol Beaufighter Mk21 did not have a .303 in the observer's bubble. Again, I think the gun itself is not the priority here, the improvement to situational awareness is critical.

In essence, The Beau Mk21 is the only AC I know of in this excellent Sim that was released substantially incomplete. I believe that it would be great to finally plug this gap.

[_RAAF_Smouch]

The Australian contingent of this community would greatly appreciate the modelling and inclusion of the rear observer's seat on the Beau. The blind spot which it currently suffers is not realistic considering the observer would have warned of incoming threats.

I believe that within this sim, the actual tasks of the observer are secondary to that of his providing realistic situational awareness.

This request has been made to TD in the appropriate thread above a long time ago but we haven't heard anything since. We'd like to think it's on the long list of things still pending.

+1.

Well said Firestorm and the rest of the guys who have agreed with his post

[Igo kyu]

I am not talking about the Aussie Beaufighters when I say I want a 0.303, I know nothing about them, and am not an expert on Beaufighters in general. However, a gun firing backwards seems a useful idea, and apparently they were present in some British Beaufighters. There's a picture of what's said to be a Mk VIC showing a what appears to be a mg in the observer's position, at the top of page 29 of Fighting Aircraft of WW2 edited by Bill Gunston.

[David603]

777 Studios (The Rise of Flight devs), made the Beaufighter for Oleg, and among a number of other projects they made this...
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3403/zbeagunner.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/zbeagunner.jpg/)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2138/zbeagun.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/zbeagun.jpg/)
...for the follow up to to Pacific Fighters, which was then cancelled because of the Grumman suing for copyright use business.

Since these assets still exist, they don't violate copyrights and 777 already made them available to modders, I'm sure they would let DT use them if DT asked.

Shame the same does not apply to the TBD Devastator 777 Studios also made :(

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

If as you say this work does not violate copyright and if it complies with the required modelling specifications established by 1C then that would be a positive step forward.

Lets hope TD are watching this thread with as much interest as the Aussies!

[777 Studios - Jason]

Hey guys,

To clear something up that was said in this forum. Google alerted me otherwise I don't post here. This external of the Beaufighter was built by my old partner Halfwit and myself for PF. Looking back it's not all that, but at the time is was very cool. I forget who did the cockpit, but that looks much better than the external.

Although I was involved in it's creation it was not a product of 777 Studios or built by the ROF team. Back then there was no 777 Studios, just the 777 AVG which was my old IL-2 squadron.

Just thought I'd clear that up. The ROF Team would kill me if I credited them with a model that is like 8 years old. LOL.

BTW I did give DT the TBD model we made. Although I am not sure why they have not added it in. I forgot what Mark told me held it up.

Jason

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Thanks Jason, your feedback is invaluable, it sounds like this is indeed original work done for PF. Would you happen to know if the Beaufighter cockpit / gunner's seat model creator is still contactable and whether this model is able to be sent to TD?

Could anyone from TD comment here to clarify or advise status? Any official word would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

[WTE_Galway]

In addition RAAF serials A8-253 and A8-3 were modified to take 0.50 cal wing guns but it doesn't sound like these ever became operational.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Interesting, didn't know that. Were those to replace the 303's or additional to them?

[WTE_Galway]

Interesting, didn't know that. Were those to replace the 303's or additional to them?

Replace.

I am not a beaufighter expert and do not have any books or other references on the aussie Beaufighters so I am only going on web references.

The reference to the testbed planes is from ADF serials for DAP Beaufighters (A8 series):

http://www.adf-serials.com/2a8.shtml

Note that ADF serials also show quite a few Mk 21 as operational under Bristol Beaufighters (A19 series):

http://www.adf-serials.com/2a19.shtml

Further googling around revealed web sources generally classify the mk21 as having 0.50 cal wing guns not 0.303


Wikipedia says this:


Beaufighter Mk 21
The Australian-made DAP Beaufighter. Changes included Hercules CVII engines, four 20 mm cannon in the nose, four Browning .50 in (12.7 mm) in the wings and the capacity to carry eight 5 in (130 mm) High-Velocity Aircraft Rockets (HVAR), two 250 lb (110 kg) bombs, two 500 lb (230 kg) bombs and one Mk 13 torpedo.


Which agrees with History of war. (http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_beaufighter_variants.html)


Mk 21
Engine: Two Bristol Hercules VIII radial engines
Horsepower: 1,720
Speed: 323 mph
Ceiling: 26,500 feet
Range: 1,500 miles
Armament: Four 20mm cannon under the nose and four .50in Browning machine guns in the wings.


so both those references state 0.50 cal was fitted to the Mk 21

If a variant ever existed with 0.50 cal in the wings and a tail gun as well that would be a great plane to have ingame.

The other interesting variant is the mkV tested a Bolton Paul power turrent with 4 x 0.303 however only two of these were made.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Well from memory, the Beau Mk21 at Moorabbin Airport Museum has .303's in the wings, not .50 cals. I'm 99.9% sure about that. How interesting!

[IvanK]

DT are watching this thread :)

In the case of the MK21 few RAAF Beaufighters ever carried a gun in the observers cockpit. There are just 2 images (that I am aware of) of MK21's ever the showing a rearward facing .303 MG but thats about it, one of the images (A8-99 over Princess Bridge Melbourne) is a little sus and looks as if it has been retouched. The other one shows a MK21 (A8-95) over the Melbourne Shrine of Remembrance that has a gun in the back but thats about it. Given only the MK21 is modelled in IL2 (and only the RAAF operated the MK21) then discussion of the early marks in RAAF/RAF service is perhaps redundant, however in most cases they also did not carry any rearward facing armament.

In RAF service the TF.X a rearward facing .303 calibre weapon was common, where a specific non bubble observers cockpit was fitted

The idea of Nav providing SA by Bandit sightings etc has great merit.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Ivan, your words are music to the ears of so many people!

Great to see that you've done some research on the matter already. We'd love to hear more about what you've got in the works but obviously understand that you guys can only share information selectively.

Thanks for dropping by with a carrot! :grin:

[IvanK]

No promises Firestorm but hope springs eternal.

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

Indeed, how very, very true!

Another thread comes to a civil, happy end. There was mystique, drama and intrigue, a climax that was worth the toil... and in the end, we are left with renewed hope and the possibility of a sequel.

I'm heading off with a smile, to pour myself a glass of red. I plan to sip it slowly while standing on the back deck, staring at the sunset.

Thanks Ivan.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Heres a few pictures of Beaufighters with what looks like guns.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/UK1883
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/MED1521

Cheers!

[Art-J]

Heres a few pictures of Beaufighters with what looks like guns.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/UK1883
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/MED1521

Cheers!

These are not Mk-21s and they're not operating in Far East though!

Cheers.

[Buster_Dee]

Does anyone have any TR1133 info (Transmitter T1136, Receiver R1137 and Amplifier A1135 pics), or at least the layout of the boxes when radar was also installed? The 1133 would have been the typical radio system used by the observer. (the TR9 preceded it but wasn't very good and doesn't seem to have lasted beyond late 1940).

[Romanator21]

If I'm not mistaken, the Mk.21 Is simply an Australian designation for the British Mk.X.

It seems the Mk.X is more likely to carry the rear gun. Since the versions are so similar, it shouldn't be a massive undertaking to make another available.

Is there any word on the Devastator? It sure would be nice to have.

[TheDawg]

as mentioned, in full tick servers, it would be nice to stab the C key and take a quick look if nothing else. I see AI gunners start peeling the MG's around long before they touch off a round. I've used that to keep my eye to the sky-
As often as Ivan winds up screaming at me from the back seat of the IL2, why not some cockney dude yelling something about an intruder-

[jameson]

Dawg,
I think we'd stopped deporting cockneys to Oz by the start of ww2....

[TheDawg]

Dawg,
I think we'd stopped deporting cockneys to Oz by the start of ww2....

...ah...I am QUITE positive there was at least a few dozen or so even after the war!
Hell, I heard one on comms only a week ago 8-)

[jameson]

Must have been a £10 pom, they went of their own accord, lol.