Trying to identify this 110 shot down in Africa or the MTO. Pictures included.

[Mysticpuma]

I was sent these by Zack Taylor who's father (also Zack Taylor) flew with the 325th FG in Africa and the MTO.

I am not sure where this aircraft was shot down, only that it doesn't look like it made it home! The images are all I have to identify this aircraft, so I wonder if anyone has the ability to work out what aircraft it was and maybe the group and pilot (only because I know some of you can work miracles!).

I make the assumption it was in 1943 but it may be very early 1944 as Zack Taylor was only with them during that time.

So here are the pictures and I wonder if they can help to identify the aircraft and unit or even the location and date?

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110-2.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110-3.jpg

Thanks for any help, cheers, MP

[Daniël]

http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/ Very useful website I think. I'm sorry I can't really help, I'm not a WWII squadron expert.

[robtek]

Found that:
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.6-%28S9+MP%29/pages/VP-Bf-110E-6.ZG1-%28S9+MP%29-Russia-1942.html
that indicates to 6.ZG1

[Wutz]

I was sent these by Zack Taylor who's father (also Zack Taylor) flew with the 325th FG in Africa and the MTO.

I am not sure where this aircraft was shot down, only that it doesn't look like it made it home! The images are all I have to identify this aircraft, so I wonder if anyone has the ability to work out what aircraft it was and maybe the group and pilot (only because I know some of you can work miracles!).

I make the assumption it was in 1943 but it may be very early 1944 as Zack Taylor was only with them during that time.

So here are the pictures and I wonder if they can help to identify the aircraft and unit or even the location and date?

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110-2.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/Mysticpuma/Damaged110-3.jpg

Thanks for any help, cheers, MP
Well the aircraft belonged to the SKG210 / ZG1 Wespengeschwader, this squadron had both Bf110 and Bf109s in service
See this site:
http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/photos-of-wespen-bf-109e-7-jabo-sub.html
There is a very detailed book on this squadron here which might help you identify the crew:
http://www.allbookstores.com/Sting-Luftwaffe-Schnellkampfgeschwader-210-Zerstorergeschwader/9780764313059
Hope that helps you?

[Mysticpuma]

Found that:
http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.6-%28S9+MP%29/pages/VP-Bf-110E-6.ZG1-%28S9+MP%29-Russia-1942.html
that indicates to 6.ZG1

Oddly, that would indicate that it was from Russia? This picture was taken in either Africa or Italy......but the markings correspond to your link? Odd?

Thanks for the link, cheers, MP

[swiss]

Oddly, that would indicate that it was from Russia? This picture was taken in either Africa or Italy......but the markings correspond to your link? Odd?

Thanks for the link, cheers, MP

No, they were moved to all fronts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerst%C3%B6rergeschwader_1


http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg1.htm

[PeterPanPan]

Try posting on M4T too. Duggy there could well know the answer.

[Polybius]

That nose wasp is certainly popular. Was it really that common or is it just over emphasized by the sim community due to how supremely bad-ass it is?

[winny]

I can't tell if it's an M or an N in the lettering?

If it's an M then it's possibly this aircraft?

http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/CFS2_Profiles/ETO_AXIS_Luftwaffe_ZG1-Dateien/Messerschmitt_Bf_110E-1_S9MP_400x125.jpg

It's apparently recorded as being at Dimitrijewskaja, Russia in July '42 and then possibly transfered to the MTO (Sicily?) sometime late 42 early 43

No idea if any of this helps.

EDIT: Note the fuselage band, this was moved to the rear (in line with standard eastern front markings) in the winter of 42 so it was in Russia till at least then.
Also found this : I and II gruppen re-united with III gruppe in the Mediterranean theatre in mid 1943. In March-April 1943 II/ZG 1 converted to the Bf 110 G-1 and G-2 at Monte Corvino. This was the Gruppe's base until August when it was withdrawn from Italy. It would suggest a II./ZG 1 Aircraft..

[Mysticpuma]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

I asked this question on another forum, and they believe it was actually a scavenged aircraft, maybe 'captured' after the base was over-run?

The reasoning is that if it was a shot-down aircraft the aerial under the belly would have suffered damage if it had fallen from the sky?

I'm now trying to work out if this aircraft could have been shot-up and then RTB, but deemed irreparable?

Cheers, MP

[Ltbear]

ME-110 E1 code S9+MP

Unit 1./6 ZG1 "wespe"

Only period 1./6 ZG1 was in Italy was 5.43 - 8.43 locatet at Montecourvino as part of II. Fliegerkorps who flew Bf-110`s

Here are a few pictures

http://i49.tinypic.com/24e83ep.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mcx9c3.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/11gj51k.jpg


Doing the time in Italy it had three diffrent GS commodores

Obstlt Alfred Druschel, 1.3.43 - 12.4.43
Obstlt Joachim Blechschmidt, 12.4.43 - 13.7.43
Obstlt Lothar von Janson, 1943 - 10.3.44

As a unit it was disbanded 7.44

Cant find pilot details concerning that specific plane.

[Mysticpuma]

Outstanding reply. Many, many thanks. Cheers, MP

[Ltbear]

Well to dig into this i found a small bit of more information.

Monte Corvino airfield was abandon by Sep 1943 not sure about the specific date, but deffently september

here is a few more images. These images compared to the ones you have shown is proberbly one who have been stripped of spareparts, look at the simularity between your pictures and these ones.

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-01.jpg

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-02.jpg

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-03.jpg

I dont think it was shot down. When i look at these other pictures it looks like a wright of, being used as spareparts.

Cant find any record for for this plane, but can find losses for other planes, this one is not recorded as a loss from what i can figure out lol...

well, maby Zack knows the person on these other pictures..

**small update**

ZG1 was withdrawn from Italy in late august 1943

They were redesignatet 1./ZG26 and changed from BF-110 to JU-88C

So we have a timeframe.

They arived march 1943 and departet late august 1943

1./ZG1 Gruppenkommandeure Monte corvino

Major Joachim Blechschmidt, 20 August 1942 – 12 April 1943
Hauptmann Wilfried Hermann, April 43 – 14 July 1943
Hauptmann Max Franzisket 14 July 1943 – 19 July 1943

There is a wired gab between July and Oktober, cant find info on who was GC doing that time

[Rodolphe]

...


ME-110 E1 code S9+MP




With the frame behind the Führersitz, this One-Ten is most likely a G-2. ;)


http://www.checksix-forums.com/gallerie/albums/userpics/50000/Damaged110a.JPG


...

[robtek]

All 110's in the pictures have that frame, it seems.

[Zorin]

There is even video footage of the captured Montecorvino airfield.

Look here:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030854_Montecorvino-Airfield_FW-190_Junkers-bomber_German-tents_ammunition-boxes

Three videos (check column on the right) and even a few frames of the Bf 110s that were left behind.

The planes were most definitely of the G-2/trop type.

[fireflyerz]

Bombed up 190's , looks like they left in a hurry.

[leggit]

my first impression was the aircraft had been stripped rather than shot down. :)

[Ltbear]

...





With the frame behind the Führersitz, this One-Ten is most likely a G-2. ;)


http://www.checksix-forums.com/gallerie/albums/userpics/50000/Damaged110a.JPG


...

I would agree with you, but all info i can find on S9+MP state its a E1 ?? You have info that give the correct model please post lol.....This have bugged me abit...

LTbear

[Mysticpuma]

Well to dig into this i found a small bit of more information.

Monte Corvino airfield was abandon by Sep 1943 not sure about the specific date, but deffently september

here is a few more images. These images compared to the ones you have shown is proberbly one who have been stripped of spareparts, look at the simularity between your pictures and these ones.

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-01.jpg

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-02.jpg

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/Bf-110-ZG1.5-(S9+AN)/images/1-Bf-110G-5.ZG1-(S9+AN)-WNr6232-abandoned-Monte-Corvino-1943-03.jpg

I dont think it was shot down. When i look at these other pictures it looks like a wright of, being used as spareparts.

Cant find any record for for this plane, but can find losses for other planes, this one is not recorded as a loss from what i can figure out lol...

well, maby Zack knows the person on these other pictures..

**small update**

ZG1 was withdrawn from Italy in late august 1943

They were redesignatet 1./ZG26 and changed from BF-110 to JU-88C

So we have a timeframe.

They arived march 1943 and departet late august 1943

1./ZG1 Gruppenkommandeure Monte corvino

Major Joachim Blechschmidt, 20 August 1942 – 12 April 1943
Hauptmann Wilfried Hermann, April 43 – 14 July 1943
Hauptmann Max Franzisket 14 July 1943 – 19 July 1943

There is a wired gab between July and Oktober, cant find info on who was GC doing that time

Some more excellent information guys, thanks again.

Although they do look likely to have been stripped, I still wonder if these were actually shot up though?

If you look at the last two-pictures there are certainly bullet-holes visible. In the close-up of the guy holding the wire, there are multiple holes in the nose and in the wider shot, look above the wing and also the tail of the painted wasp?

Maybe they were stripped for spares after being damaged, or stripped as they couldn't be repaired before the airfield was over-run?

The video links were really interesting too, thanks for everything.

Cheers, MP

[Ltbear]

maby a combination between battle damedge and straifing by the allieds. Planes written of as 100% losses was normaly stripped down where you took all the parts that was salvageble.

:)
LTbear

[John Vasco]

To correct and clarify a few things in this thread.

I./ZG 1 was not transferred to the Med. Front. When II./ZG 1 moved to the Med area, I./ZG 1 remained in Russia.

When II./ZG 1 was withdrawn from Montecorvino, it was not redesignated 1./ZG 26. Ltbear, you need to differentiate betwen first Staffel (1.) and first Gruppe (I.). The re-designation of II./ZG 1 did not occur until mid-1944.

S9+MP shown at Montecorvino is a Bf 110 G-2, as evidenced by the later style Bordfunker's canopy. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that II./ZG 1 in the Med flew any 'E' variants. The 'E' was being phased out with the Gruppe once they started receiving the 'F' variant on the Russian front. By the time they reached the Med area, they were equipped with the 'G-2' variant. It is known they had on charge one old 'C' variant in the Med, probably passed on to them by III./ZG 26.

[Richie]

That's always a really good place to look "az is biz". Great pics, skins and excellent source for photos.

[Richie]

I sent this pic of Hans-Joachim Marseille into "Az is biz" about a year ago that I scanned out of a German book about JG27. I never saw it before I bought the book.

[150GCT_Veltro]

@Mysticpuma, i post these other info from Ferdinando D'Amico.

A meno di errori di trascrizione (e considerando una pagina mancante al rapporto...), questi sono i Bf 110 trovati sul campo di Montecorvino:

S9+EN
S9+AP
S9+PP
S9+SP
S9+MN
S9+NP
S9+BN
S9+XN
S9+AN
S9+FM
S9+GM
S9+CM
S9+LM
S9+AM
S9+BN
S9+NN
S9+L?
S9+BC
S9+DN
S9+OT
S9+BP
CK+A1

insieme ai resti di altri sei Bf 110 completamente distrutti e non identificabili.

Purtroppo non risulta proprio lo "S9+MP"... anche se le probabilità che sia stato trovato in zona sono elevate (e non scarterei anche l'ipotesi di un errore di trascrizione, ad esempio, dello "NP")

Vi sono almeno tre filmati girati alle truppe inglesi che occuparono il campo di Montecorvino:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030855_Montecorvino-Airfield_wrecked-German-planes_land-mine_Junkers-dive-bombers

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030854_Montecorvino-Airfield_FW-190_Junkers-bomber_German-tents_ammunition-boxes

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030856_British-Spitfire_windsock_disassembling-bomb_Italian-officers_British-pilot

Tuttavia, il fatto che a Montecorvino furono basati gli Spitfires della RAF, fa venire qualche dubbio che la foto con i due ufficiali USAAF accanto al Bf 110 sia stata scattata su quel campo...

Tanto per fare degli esempi, a Trapani/Milo venne ritrovato il Bf 110 "S9+VP" ed a Catania lo "S9+BN".

These are the Bf-110 found on the Montecorvino airfiled, and 6 more were totally destroyed so was not possible to recognize the code.

S9+EN
S9+AP
S9+PP
S9+SP
S9+MN
S9+NP
S9+BN
S9+XN
S9+AN
S9+FM
S9+GM
S9+CM
S9+LM
S9+AM
S9+BN
S9+NN
S9+L?
S9+BC
S9+DN
S9+OT
S9+BP
CK+A1

There is not a S9+MP but this could be due also to an error in the code transcription (for ex. S9+NP). So, there are however high probabilities that S9+MP could have been found in Montecorvino aswell.

There are also three movies from British Troops about Montecorvino:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030855_Montecorvino-Airfield_wrecked-German-planes_land-mine_Junkers-dive-bombers

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030854_Montecorvino-Airfield_FW-190_Junkers-bomber_German-tents_ammunition-boxes

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675030856_British-Spitfire_windsock_disassembling-bomb_Italian-officers_British-pilot

However, the fact that the RAF Spitfires were based in Montecorvino, brings some doubt the photo was taken on that field ... because of the two officers USAAF next to the Bf 110.

Some other examples: in Trapani airfiled was found the BF-110 S9+VP and in Catania S9+BN.

[Mysticpuma]

Thank you for the update.

I wonder then if this 110 may actually have been a victory of the 325th FG (it was taken by one of their pilots). Very intriguing!

Cheers, MP

[veltro205]

Glad to have been of help, Mystic...!

As far as your hypothesis is concerned, my opinion is that in no way that Bf 110 may have been a combat casualty: the fuselage virtually intact and the neat dismantling of the wings clearly indicate one example cannibalized by the unit and left on the abandoned airfield (wheter it is Montecorvino or elsewhere, the thing still applies.).

As I have said, there are strong possibilities that this example is among those reported abandoned in the airfield area, only transcribed with a wrong individual letter.

At least, this is what experience and observation do suggest.

HTH, all the best

P.S. I have already expressed privately to Ralph my congratulations for the fantastic work you've done. I can only repeat to you directly my admiration and heartfelt gratitude as a researcher.

Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico

[Skarphol]

Threads like this one is the main reason that I keep reading this forum! Very interesting!

I do not completely agree with this though:

...in no way that Bf 110 may have been a combat casualty: ...

The reason for scavenging parts of the Bf 110 is probably because it has been damaged beyond repair. The bullet holes in the fuselage indicates that it might be a victim of enemy action.
So it could well be the 325th FG who is responsible for the permanent grounding of this plane.

Skarphol

[veltro205]

One of the "habits" of soldiers everywhere is to shoot at and loot wrecks of enemy material, so a few bullet holes or some bent metal foil - IMHO - does not add anything to the story.

HTH, all the best

Ferdinando 'veltro' D'Amico

[Monguse]

Veltro and Ferdinando glad you posted and helped clear things out.

[waffen-79]

No expert here, granted, but reading post, following links and photos

That 110 wasn't shot down, it appears to be scavanged for spareparts and used later for gunnery practice

COULD have been strafed perhaps, but that's a concession

[Zorin]

1. If you take a little tour of the airfield with google streetview, you can pretty much match the background of the photo with the actual view. So yes, definitely Montecorvino.
2. There are no signs of a forced landing. Paint scratches, dirt/dust screen, or bend structures. All we know is that it was written off due to damages we can not disclose, being forced down due to enemy action being the least likely one though.
3. The damages we can see on the picture I would attibute to the retreating German forces trying to damage the aircraft beyond repair and vandalism of Allied troops.
4. As the airfield was used by units of the USAAF it is not unlikely to see 345th pilots to pay a visit. Especially the left behind Fw190s must have been of great interest.

[Ltbear]

:)

Just glad to be correctet. Most of my info is from memory and a few books, so something all ways gets mixed up lol....

The mystery here is not about the location, im 100% convinced its monte-corvino and if you do as one of the posters did with google, you can match the location....

But the plane. I know i get bashed etc, but the plane with ID S9+MP is listet as a 110-E1 i know the bar etc, but if we want to be story nerds, we need to find out the type of plane and what happend to it.

It is deffently ZG1, it is deffently Italy between march and late August medio september

On the sources on the Internet there is no ME-110 with code S9+MP shot down in Italy entire 1943

************************************************** ******

Luftwaffe loss list 1943 (Incomplete so no good, but give an Idea)

03.01.1943 6./NJG1 Messerschmitt Bf 110F-4 Wnr.4745 Oblt Wolf

09.01.1943 5./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.2406 Uffz Roth

17.01.1943 Stab./JG51 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-2 Wnr.2156 Major Nordmann

18.01.1943 7./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.5591 Uffz Schnabel

20.01.1943 2./JGr Sud Messerschmitt Bf 109F-4 Wnr.8523 Lt Dau

20.01.1943 4./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.1178 Fw Heiden

07.02.1943 6./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.5315 Fw Salz

16.02.1943 1./(F)123 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr.1243 Fw Kunze

07/08.03.1943 9./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.5547 Ofw Ahrens

08.03.1943 1/KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.5526 Fw Vestewig

08.03.1943 2./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.4355 Fw Rossmann

11.03.1943 3./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.4541 Oblt Schneiderbauer

12 03.1943 2./KG6 Junkers Ju 88A-14 Wnr.4355 Uffz Grau

13.03.1943 5./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.5615 Ofw Meyer

16.03.1943 3./KG6 Junkers Ju 88 Wnr.4532 Uffz Diemer

23.03.1943 Stab/JG77 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 Wnr.16381 Major Muencheberg

24/25.03.1943 5./KG6 Junkers Ju 88A-14 Wnr.144550 Oblt Rogge

25.03.1943 1/KG6 Junkers Ju 88A-14 Wnr.4354 Ofw Lang

25.03.1943 4./KG6 Junkers Ju 88A-14 Wnr.144537 Oblt Foerster

05.04.1943 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.7051 Hptm Geisshardt

11.04.1943 1./NJG1 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 Wnr. 4881 Uffz Vogel

14.04.1943 7./JG2 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.0733 Uffz Armbruster

20.04.1943 Erg.St./StG.77 Junkers Ju 87R-1 Wnr.5444 Uffz Tremel

29.04.1943 4./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.14764 Fw Quante

04.05.1943 3./JG27 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.16164 Uffz Doerrer

07.05.1943 6./JG5 Messerschmitt Bf 109F-4 Wnr.14802 Ofw Brunner

11.05.1943 3./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.1163 Lt Pleiss

16.05.1943 11./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.42399 Uffz Kaiser

22.05.1943 3/SKG10 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.52624 Uffz Kolz

23.05.1943 15./SKG 10 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.0189 Uffz Streich

23.05.1943 15/SKG10 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.50136 Uffz Schmidt

31.05.1943 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.57305 Fw Danneberg

01.06.1943 1./JG27 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.14889 Uffz Reuther

13.06.1943 5./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.14910 Fw Sieker

16.06.1943 11./NJG3 Junkers Ju 88C-6 Wnr.360143 Uffz Hennecke

22.06.1943 4./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.14907 Lt Klaven

07.07.1943 5./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.2393 Uffz Friedrich

08.07.1943 1./(F)120 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr. 430670 Fw Roesch

13.07.1943 16./KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Wnr.1238 Fw Zwissler

15.07.1943 6./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.57310 Uffz Schwarz1

23.07.1943 Wekusta 2 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr.430030 Uffz Auschner

25/26.07.1943 Dornier Do 217K-1 Wnr.4412 Uffz Reuth

26.07.1943 5./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.4395 Uffz Colve

30.07.1943 6./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.57311 Ofw Mackenstedt

06.08.1943 6./NJG 2 Messerschmitt Bf110E-2 Wnr.2531 Fw Dörr

12.08.1943 1./(F)121 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr.430564 Lt. Roehrer

17.08.1943 3./NJG1 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 Wnr.5542 Uffz Neuner

22/23.08.1943 14./KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Wnr.0228 Uffz Oertel

23.08.1943 9./JG26 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 Wnr.20442 Lt Karl

24.08.1943 16./KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Wnr.0287 Fw Benner

24.08.1943 15./KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Wnr.420214 Hptm Schmitter

29.08.1943 6./KG2 Dornier Do 217E-4 Wnr.5587 Uffz Scheuffelen

31.08.1943 5./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.14909 Fw Schiller

31.08.1943 5./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-6 Wnr.530118 Oblt Matoni

14.09.1943 4./(F)123 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 Wnr.19194 Oblt Wittmer

28.09.1943 4./NJG5 Messerschmitt Bf 110G Wnr.? Hptm Schienerer

03.10.1943 Stab III/NJG3 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 Wnr.5560 Hptm Sigmund

04.10.1943 5./ZG76 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-3 Wnr.4906 Lt Metzen

04.10.1943 1./(F) 22 Junkers Ju 88D Wnr.1682 Lt.Hoss

07.10.1943 1./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.1900140 Lt Matthiesen

07.10.1943 Erg-Staffel/KG6 Junkers Ju 188E-1 Wnr.260204 Oblt Jung

14.10.1943 3./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-4 Wnr.5807 Uffz Richter

20.10.1943 2./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.5894 Uffz Kratzel

23.10.1943 4./KG30 Junkers Ju 88A-14 Wnr.550131 Uffz Krisam

01.11.1943 3./KG6 Junkers Ju 188E-1 Wnr.260198 Lt Reckin

05.11.1943 8./KG6 Junkers Ju 88S-1 Wnr.140583 Lt Bernhard

06.11.1943 3./SKG10 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.5823 Fw Pichler

08.11.1943 Stab/(F)122 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr.430593 Major Orlowski

08.11.1943 15/KG2 Messerschmitt Me 410A-1 Wnr.10244 Major Schmitter2

11.11.1943 2./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5 Wnr.1170 Uffz Spiegel

23.11.1943 2./NJG2 Junkers Ju 88C Wnr.750693 Ogfr Darge

26.11.1943 10./JG26 Focke Wulf Fw 190 Wnr.530769 Lt Fischer

26.11.43 6./JG27 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 Wnr.160842 Gefr. Soentgerath

26.11.1943 Stab/JG11 Messerschmitt Bf 109G-5 Wnr.26112 Lt Weiroster

26.11.1943 1./(F)22 Junkers Ju 88D-1 Wnr.430052 Ofw Prüfert

02.12.1943 2./KG6 Junkers Ju 188 Wnr.260199 Fw Schwarz2

04.12.1943 KG2 Dornier 217M-1 Wnr. 40727 Lt. Kiendl

21.12.1943 2./NJG3 Messerschmitt Bf 110G-4 Wnr.6283 Fw Rösner

************************************************** ******

What we know

There was a ME-110E1 with the code S9+MP

It did belong to ZG1

ZG1 was in Italy in 1943

Location of the "wreck" is Monte-corvino


What we would like to know

What realy happend to the plane

Why is there a model diffrence between the scarse sources (S9+MP ME-110 E1) and the G model apearence on the photos

Was ME-110E1 S9+MP Upgraded to G standard??

Who was the last pilot / Crew

lol....this plane is bugging me and i will dedicate abit time doing the weekend to look into this. Somewhere there must be information about a ME-110 with the code S9+MP lmao....

Let the internet Indiana Jone`ses loose...dadadadaaaa dadadaaaaa

:)

All have a great weekend
LTbear

[Spinnetti]

looks pretty clear that it was stripped for parts... see how the wing and tail were unbolted not torn off. Probably at a forward makeshift field. lack of parts and tired airframe, so was stripped of good parts to service other planes and left in the field?

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

No question.

Go check the loss tables in my book, 'Sting of the Luftwaffe'. There, you will see all the RECORDED losses of aircraft forwarded to Luftwaffe HQ via two sources:
1. The Namentliche Verlustemeldungen, which reported the loss/wounding of crews, which also contained quite detailed aircraft information most of the time; and
2. The aircraft returns forwarded to the Lw Quartermaster for the purpose of acquiring replacement aircraft.

As I put in my first post, apart from a Bf 110 C, which I believe was a C-1 acquired from III./ZG 26 on the Med front, all the loss/damage information for aircraft was for Bf 110 G-2 aircraft. The sideways folding Bordfunker's canopy in the photos confirm it as a G-2, not an 'E'.

Unit codes on the fuselage of Bf 110s were re-used again and again in Luftwaffe Staffeln, so more than one Bf 110 would have carried the code S9+MP, not just one. Let me give you an example: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, shot down and belly-landed at Hawkhurst, Kent on 15th August 1940; Bf 110 E-1/N, S9+CK, shot down into the North Sea on 12th May 1941; Bf 110 E-1, S9+CK, damaged on combat mission, Propajak, Russian front, 12th August 1941; Me 210 A-1, S9+CK, crashed on training flight, Hörsching, near Linz, 12th December 1941; Bf 110 F-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak, 31st December 1942; Bf 110 G-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak and Russian fighter, east of Russkt-Brod, 10th May 1943.

So simpy because the Bf 110 carries the code S9+MP, you cannot ascribe its variant/sub-variant to the only known recorded code in Luftwaffe returns. Remember, if II./ZG 1 was suddenly forced to retreat and leave behind many aircraft that were u/s on Montecorvino, the last thing on their minds was probably hanging around to fill in some paperwork about the minute details of those damaged aircraft. They would simply have requisitioned replacements once they had reached their new base.

I hope this clarifies things to your satisfaction.

[Ltbear]

Ltbear,

No question.

Go check the loss tables in my book, 'Sting of the Luftwaffe'. There, you will see all the RECORDED losses of aircraft forwarded to Luftwaffe HQ via two sources:
1. The Namentliche Verlustemeldungen, which reported the loss/wounding of crews, which also contained quite detailed aircraft information most of the time; and
2. The aircraft returns forwarded to the Lw Quartermaster for the purpose of acquiring replacement aircraft.

As I put in my first post, apart from a Bf 110 C, which I believe was a C-1 acquired from III./ZG 26 on the Med front, all the loss/damage information for aircraft was for Bf 110 G-2 aircraft. The sideways folding Bordfunker's canopy in the photos confirm it as a G-2, not an 'E'.

Unit codes on the fuselage of Bf 110s were re-used again and again in Luftwaffe Staffeln, so more than one Bf 110 would have carried the code S9+MP, not just one. Let me give you an example: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, shot down and belly-landed at Hawkhurst, Kent on 15th August 1940; Bf 110 E-1/N, S9+CK, shot down into the North Sea on 12th May 1941; Bf 110 E-1, S9+CK, damaged on combat mission, Propajak, Russian front, 12th August 1941; Me 210 A-1, S9+CK, crashed on training flight, Hörsching, near Linz, 12th December 1941; Bf 110 F-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak, 31st December 1942; Bf 110 G-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak and Russian fighter, east of Russkt-Brod, 10th May 1943.

So simpy because the Bf 110 carries the code S9+MP, you cannot ascribe its variant/sub-variant to the only known recorded code in Luftwaffe returns. Remember, if II./ZG 1 was suddenly forced to retreat and leave behind many aircraft that were u/s on Montecorvino, the last thing on their minds was probably hanging around to fill in some paperwork about the minute details of those damaged aircraft. They would simply have requisitioned replacements once they had reached their new base.

I hope this clarifies things to your satisfaction.

Sir.

I read and learn, and have no problem understanding what you are saying. Sometimes i need to read things with a bat bashing my head so i can understand lol....(not native english speaking)

My problem with any plane who use that code is that i cant find information on any plane with the code S9+MP

I have been reading the last 3 hours, in books on the net even used a great ammount of time on luftwaffe ahchives. You can find alot of information on a great deal of the planes used by ZG1, but the one or ones using the S9+MP code i simply cant find anything on :)

For me it have moved from the specific aircraft over to a more broad seach on the code it self, instead of any specific plane. ( the hunt of the story of S9+MP lmao)

If you have information on any plane using that number i would love to have it (sometimes you just need to know, even if its nothing you can realy use lol)


LTbear

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

Forget the code, look at the Bordfunker's rear canopy. It is the later, revised, sideways folding canopy. It was NOT used on Bf 110 Es.

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

Here are all the loss/damage details form II./ZG 1's time in the Med. I've included details of the losses before and after they went to the Med.

What you will see is that there are many Bf 110s of the unit destroyed/damaged on Montecorvino, but the unit did reoprt up the line their fuselage codes. This list is compiled from, as stated previously, the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen of II./ZG 1, and the entries in the Luftwaffe Quartermaster's 6th Abteilung returns, now held on microfilm in the Imperial War Museum, London.

Copy and paste the complete table into Microsoft Word, and then increase the font size to '7' and change the font to 'Univers' and you should get the table to flow correctly.

Hope this helps.

Date Name of crew and rank Staffel Status Fate Aircraft Damage Reason for Place
Code & W. Nr. state Casualty09-03-43 4 Bf 110 G-2 50% Engine trouble. Dnjepropet-
rowsk-south
5009 airfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-03-43 6 Bf 110 C-7 50% Damaged by enemy fire.

2891
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-03-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 75% Damaged by Flak. Charkow.
Gruppe
6114
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack.
7131
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack.
4182
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack
6173
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-04-43 Uffz. Franz Böck 6 P W Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Shot down into the Between Tunis
Uffz. Henry Ahrens 6 Bf K Trop Mediterranean Sea. and Sicily.
3U+SR*
5122
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25-04-43 Oblt. Alexander Gibsone 6 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Straits of
Uffz. Otto Weissflog 6 Bf M Trop combat mission. Sicily.
S9+TP
6189
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28-04-43 II. Fi 156 C-3/Trop 30% Overturned on landing Taormina.
Gruppe
8133
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Oblt. Kurt Eiffländer 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Fw. Heinz Rumke 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+AC fighters. 6163
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Ogefr. Werner Hess 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Uffz. Hubert Assmann 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+BC fighters.
6238
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Ofw. Georg Stengel 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Uffz. Werner Hellwig 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+CM fighters.
6190
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Lt. Georg Meyer 6 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Seen to crash into the sea Straits of
Uffz. Erich Finze 6 Bf M Trop on combat mission. Sicily.
S9+IP
6178
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
03-05-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Ju 52 crashed into aircraft. Trapani Gruppe airfield.

6151
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-05-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 80% Tyre damage resulted in Trapani Gruppe damage to aircraft. airfield.
6183
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
09-05-43 Lt. Wolfgang Priebe 4 P W Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Crashed following combat 20 Kms.
Fw. Friedrich Kleine- 4 Bf K Trop mission. south-south-
Kleffmann S9+MM east of Reggio.
6237
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-05-43 Lt. Erich Holthuis 5 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Crashed into the sea on 24 Kms. east
Trop combat mission. of Soverato.
S9+KN 6155
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-06-43 II. Me 210 70% Tyre failure. Praitca di
Gruppe Mare.
6188
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 25% Airframe damage. Ciampino-North
Gruppe Trop airfield.
6212
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------06-07-42 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 45% Crash-landing. Montecorvino.
Gruppe Trop
6232
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 80% Damaged by Flak. Montecorvino.
Gruppe Trop
6234
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Stfw. Paul Rapp 4 P K Bf 110 G-2 Hit by Flak and attacked 15 Kms.
Fw. Gerhard Freyer 4 Bf S9+DM by 3 British fighters. South-east of
6191 Crash-landed. Mazzarino.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Uffz. Franz Hillmann 4 P W Bf 110 G-2/Trop Gela.
Uffz. Josef Jauernick 4 Bf W S9+EM
6153
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Fw. Hermann Gerdes 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 Pilot killed on combat 10 Kms. east
S9+BN mission. of Gela.
6172
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Uffz. Richard Blind 5 Bf K Bf 110 G-2 Bordfunker killed on 15 Kms. east
S9+KN combat mission. of Gela.
6301
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Oblt. Wilhelm Dreher II. P Bf 110 G-2 100% Reason for loss not Gela.
Uffz. Oskar Stellmacher Gruppe Bf known.
6181
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 Fw. Reinhold Miehlke 5 P K Bf 110 G-2/Trop Pilot killed following 10 Kms.
Uffz. Horst Wiese 5 Bf W S9+GN direct hit from Flak south-west of
6152 on combat mission. Licodia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 C-1 40% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino.
Gruppe attack.
0945
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino. Gruppe Trop attack.
6299
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 50% Belly-landing following
Gruppe Trop combat mission.
6217
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Fi 156 C-3/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack.
8134
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 108 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 1104
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6328
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6194
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6184
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6218
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6231
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6149
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6329
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 25% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6250
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-07-43 Uffz. Karl Sünderhauff 4 Bf K Bf 110 G-2/ Bordfunker killed on Near Capri.
Trop combat mission.
S9+GM
6148
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-07-43 Uffz. Erich Essig 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 Both crewmen killed 5 Kms. West of
Uffz. Rudolf Beilner 5 Bf K S9+EN on combat mission. Montecorvino
6143 airfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19-07-43 Fw. Bernhardt Grundt 5 P Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Collided with S9+EM 20 Kms. north
Uffz. Kurt Geyer 5 Bf M Trop during combat with of Taormina.
S9+CN Spitfires.
6229
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19-07-43 Uffz. Franz Hillmann 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Collided with S9+CN 20 Kms. north
Uffz. Josef Jauernick 4 Bf M Trop during combat with of Taormina.
S9+EM Spitfires.
6153
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 75% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack.
6161
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 60% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6187
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 90% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack.
6185
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop
S9+GM 6148
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28-07-43 Fw. Karl Hirschmann 4 P K Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Shot down in combat with North-east of
Uffz. Günther-Harald 4 Bf K Trop fighters during attack Catania.
S9+AM on shipping.
5632
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-08-43 Major Heinz Nacke Stab P W Bf 110 G-2 Crashed on non-combat flight.
(Gruppenkommandeur) S9+KM
Ofw. Hans-Joachim Kobel II W 6303
Uffz. Anton Maigler Gruppe W
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-08-43 II Bf 110 G-2 20% Damaged by obstruction on Memmingen
Gruppe airfield.
6403
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21-08-43 Uffz. Georg Planer 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 100% Crashed into the sea West of Brest.
Uffz. Horst Hoffmann 5 Bf K S9+GN during combat with
6406 Liberator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-08-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 10% Hit by own Flak. Atlantic coast.
Gruppe
6366
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-08-43 II Bf 110 G-2 Belly-landed due to Brest-Süd
Gruppe engine problem. airfield.
6332

[geo.sessa]

Ciao
Scusami se ti disturbo, volevo chiederti se è possibile avere copia del rapporto dei BF110 ritrovati a Montecorvino.
Grazie
Gennaro Sessa

Hi
Excuse me if I disturb you, I wanted to ask you if it is possible possession copy of the relationship of the BF110s found again to Montecorvino.
Thanks
Gennaro Sessa

Salerno (Italy)

[geo.sessa]

ME-110 E1 code S9+MP

Unit 1./6 ZG1 "wespe"

Only period 1./6 ZG1 was in Italy was 5.43 - 8.43 locatet at Montecourvino as part of II. Fliegerkorps who flew Bf-110`s

Here are a few pictures

http://i49.tinypic.com/24e83ep.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2mcx9c3.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/11gj51k.jpg


Doing the time in Italy it had three diffrent GS commodores

Obstlt Alfred Druschel, 1.3.43 - 12.4.43
Obstlt Joachim Blechschmidt, 12.4.43 - 13.7.43
Obstlt Lothar von Janson, 1943 - 10.3.44

As a unit it was disbanded 7.44

Cant find pilot details concerning that specific plane.
Can I have the photos of the BF110 "Wespe" on Montecorvino in tall definition?
Thanks

Gennaro Sessa
Salerno (Italy)