Daidalos Team - Engine sounds

[Falke]

Daidalos Team - Thanks for the latest patch.

Are there any plans in future patches to update or improve IL2's engine sounds?

Is there is a way for it to be done, is it something you might consider?

Thanks



P.S. to forum members - Not complaining mind you so don't flame me. Just asking a question.:)

[Falke]

bump

[Fafnir_6]

Hello,

I requested that DT consider adding some of the sounds from the various unofficial sound mods a while back and unfortunately there are some questions/concerns with respect to copyright and/or authenticity of the sounds in these mod packs that were not adequately addressed (publically) by the mod makers. I think DT likely acknowledges that the sound samples in the stock game can be improved but I haven't seen any official announcements addressing them. That said, DT has demonstrated an uncanny ability to surprise and impress with their patches so I would stay tuned...

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

I couldn't say better.

[Azimech]

I still feel some modded engine sounds are vastly inferiour to standard. Most of them even have no prop whine. A lot of planes have a different sound frequency (engine rpm) on the outside compared with inside, that's sloppy work.
Even if not accurate, I prefer stock.

I'd say prevent a discussion that will span years and grow a lot of grey hairs prematurely and leave the sounds as they are. Even if that means ignoring the original reason the game was hacked.

I rather have new features and bug fixes instead of increased loading times because huge folders with sounds need to be loaded in memory.

[Tempest123]

+1, I've heard some of the mod sounds, some are good, some are bad, having worked with real aircraft for a while. It's such a huge job to get correct recordings across a spectrum of engines and aircraft, my vote is to leave them for now.

Edit: That 109 sound below by Jafa is quite good

[fireflyerz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu2N-D_ES_A

[Dano]

Bah, just retrofit the original IL2 sound engine ;)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Sounds I am waiting for VERY much :cool:

[csThor]

Personal opinion: Don't expect it. For sure I'd not support slapping any of the available sound packs into the engine, unless it can be guaranteed that there is no chance of anyone making a copyright claim against 1C:Maddox Games and ultimately Daidalos. We don't have a six-digit sum ready just for that case. Do you? But that's just one aspect. Quality and the way sounds interact with the game engine are another (which I have no idea of).

And before anyone asks: I somehow doubt very much that we'd have the resources to make own recordings, unless Martin hasn't told us everything. :mrgreen:

[Red Dragon-DK]

I think you are shooting yourself in the foot not doing anything about it. The very poor sound and the lack of 6DOF was the reson modding this game started. There are a lot of good sound engein out there. jafaem is the King of sounds engien and Im shure he would help you, if you wounld just ask.

[fireflyerz]

For il2 I think it is too late , there are such drawn lines in the comunity that the adding of a new sound mod would cause alot of bitching to start all over again , best to leave it as is, it works well for both sides as it is, Sow....well the fact that the updates come with the statment that sounds (old OE il2 sounds )are only placeholders , sais oleg has read and uderstood the message . :grin:

[csThor]

I think you are shooting yourself in the foot not doing anything about it. The very poor sound and the lack of 6DOF was the reson modding this game started. There are a lot of good sound engein out there. jafaem is the King of sounds engien and Im shure he would help you, if you wounld just ask.

Like I said ... Unless he can prove that none of the sound samples he used could cause a copyright infringement there's no chance TD will touch it. It's just too risky.

[Foo'bar]

youtube.video


Wow! This is the most realistic 109 sound and most accurate Doppler effect I've ever heard in a game!

[Fafnir_6]

Wow! This is the most realistic 109 sound and most accurate Doppler effect I've ever heard in a game!

Agreed! Great work as always, Jafa. Now if you could just provide links to the reference material you used to make these sounds and any permissions required to use those reference materials, then we could petition DT to replace the stock DB601 external sounds with these superior ones. For the record, I have no doubt of the authenticity of these sounds as I have heard this aircraft in real life...Jafa's sounds are spot on. The same permissions requirements for references would apply to all engine sounds (V-1710, DB605, R-2800, M-62, etc). Anyone who has ever had to collect permissions for something will now appreciate the scale of this project given the number of different engines we have in game. It goes waaayyy beyond the technical challenge of producing perfect sounds.

Cheers and thanks for the vid, Jafa, I listen to it any time I feel the need for tingles down my spine :D,

Fafnir_6

[fireflyerz]

Thanks foobar , mutual respect.
And everyone else - I refer you to my previous post , and anyway , you cant afford me .

[rollnloop]

One of the most irritating features with stock sound engine is the ability, in flight, to hear other aircraft. Phenomenon known as IL2 SONAR.

-note: it is known that NOT every PC allows to hear other aircraft, if you don't hear them don't say it doesn't exist, because it does on others' PCs (has been this way for me on three successive machines, and i know many others who hear too).

It's an instant immersion breaker, and denies any kind of bounce, wich was the main historical way to achieve a victory against a fighter. Energy fighters like P-47, Tempest, FW190 then suffer from a non historical disadvantage due to this impossibility to bounce when fighting a turn n bank fighter.

Of course, there is a known workaround with throttle reduction before entering fire range, but then one must have a fantastic energy advantage prior any engagement, when a FW190 could, in reality, race after a SpitV level and kill it in one burst, from low 6 to remain unseen. In game, Spit driver will hear the FW and break, this is not realistic. (replace FW vs Spit with Tempest vs 109 if you prefer a red side example).

So, even if DT don't want to include mod sounds for copyright issues, please at least try to fix this SONAR. If you wonder how to, you can have a look at Tiger33's sound mod for 4.09.

[Erkki]

I must be one of the few who hear planes and effects around me, over engine noise, much, much better with the "improved sounds".

Its annoying to hear the hits of your own bullets on an E/A 500m away....

Nothing like that in stock. Its definately not stock vs. mod but the issue known as "sound radar" is somewhere else.

[Flanker35M]

S!

I have the so called sonar effect with stock. Just by listening can hear when an enemy plane is trying to get on my six. Can also hear parts of E/A planes tear off in stock so Erkki I bet it is something with the hardware we use. IL-2 sound engine has been a grief since day one. So hopefully SoW will not have these bugs/features anymore.

[Bricks]

Hello,

I requested that DT consider adding some of the sounds from the various unofficial sound mods a while back and unfortunately there are some questions/concerns with respect to copyright and/or authenticity of the sounds in these mod packs that were not adequately addressed (publically) by the mod makers. I think DT likely acknowledges that the sound samples in the stock game can be improved but I haven't seen any official announcements addressing them. That said, DT has demonstrated an uncanny ability to surprise and impress with their patches so I would stay tuned...

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

I'm sorry, but that is not what Falke asked.

Your quote was given as an answer to the question whether engine-sounds from illegal modifications could be used for the official version. For the most obvious reasons you stated, they can not.

However, Falke's question was, whether DaedalusTeam is able or planning to improve (engine-)-Sounds in IL2. That does not implement to use the sounds taken from other games or resources protected by copy-rights.

It's a fair question of high interest for many players here. Let's not forget, that this was the initial reason, why the unofficial modifications spread so fast.

Now the DaedalusTeam has a chance to make official changes and addons, why not take the wind off their sails?

[Azimech]

Probably recycled lots of times but maybe there could be an option for people wanting to install their own sounds, but with the disclaimer that there will be no support from TD for any modification by any user, and not a single sound will be provided. This way it's the user's own responsibility if he fracks up his game and the whole discussion will finally end, and no-one will have to pay for anything.

Slow frame rate? Strange antenna growing out of your head(s)? Try the original sound engine. Problem solved? Tough luck partner, you're on your own.

[baronWastelan]

Given the apparent difficulties with the sounds in the new BoB game, I doubt there are any resources available for updating sounds in Il-2.

[Fafnir_6]

Probably recycled lots of times but maybe there could be an option for people wanting to install their own sounds, but with the disclaimer that there will be no support from TD for any modification by any user, and not a single sound will be provided. This way it's the user's own responsibility if he fracks up his game and the whole discussion will finally end, and no-one will have to pay for anything.

Slow frame rate? Strange antenna growing out of your head(s)? Try the original sound engine. Problem solved? Tough luck partner, you're on your own.

What a great idea, Azimech! I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement this but having a common, installable format for sound mods would not affect aircraft performances (for online play balance), the onus for proving permissions would no longer be on DT's shoulders with respect to sound mods, the user would be able to pick his/her favorite set of sounds and this would allow the dedicated sound mod makers out there to continue their great work. Everybody wins as far as I can tell. If this is implemented, perhaps the same or similar updating scheme could be used for map repaint mods.

Cheers and thanks for sharing,

Fafnir_6

[Fafnir_6]

Given the apparent difficulties with the sounds in the new BoB game, I doubt there are any resources available for updating sounds in Il-2.

Hello,

DT is separate from Maddox Games so resources would likely be restricted more by Daidalos Team's work load rather than any problems in BoB's development. Perhaps someone from DT can confirm this? As for the issues with the sounds in BoB, is it possible that they are problems with the sound engine? The complaints most people have with the sounds in IL-2 is more to do with the sound samples and how they compare with real world sounds rather than with IL-2's sound engine itself (the issues with that were ironed out back in the day).

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

[Fafnir_6]

I'm sorry, but that is not what Falke asked.

Your quote was given as an answer to the question whether engine-sounds from illegal modifications could be used for the official version. For the most obvious reasons you stated, they can not.

However, Falke's question was, whether DaedalusTeam is able or planning to improve (engine-)-Sounds in IL2. That does not implement to use the sounds taken from other games or resources protected by copy-rights.

It's a fair question of high interest for many players here. Let's not forget, that this was the initial reason, why the unofficial modifications spread so fast.

Now the DaedalusTeam has a chance to make official changes and addons, why not take the wind off their sails?

Hello,

see my reply #3 on p.1 and Caspar's response to it.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

[Bricks]

Hello,

see my reply #3 on p.1 and Caspar's response to it.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

So? :confused:

[Fafnir_6]

So? :confused:

Well, I stated that DT likely acknowledges that the sound samples in the stock game could do with some improving and Caspar basically agreed with that. Falke was asking if DT was willing to look into sound upgrades so we have our answer! The problem with implementing this is the afore-mentioned copyright and authenticity concerns (when adding community-made sound mods) and the large amount of work involved (if making a new, compliant sound mod) for a team with limited resources. I'm eternally optimistic and I think we'll see some movement on this at some point. I really like Azimech's suggestion. Instead of DT having to research & produce a new sound mod (or get permissions for the whole array of sounds from a community-made mod) they would need to adjust the structure of IL-2's sound sample storage in such a way that they could easily be replaced en-mass (they might even be able to insert some sort of doppler fly-by support like that of some of the mods). Sounds could be made accessible in the same way that aircraft skins are accessible currently. I remember hearing one of the DT members (Caspar or CsThor maybe??) saying that DT doesn't have a lot of expertise in sound production (perhaps this has changed?) but they do have expertise in coding and they have access to the dev tools. In my uninformed view, Azimech's solution plays to both DT's strengths in coding and game asset management and also to those of the community sound gurus like Jafa or Tiger33. I'd be very interested to hear what DT thinks of this.

Cheers (I love your avatar, btw),

Fafnir_6

[KG26_Alpha]

Well, I stated that DT likely acknowledges that the sound samples in the stock game could do with some improving and Caspar basically agreed with that. Falke was asking if DT was willing to look into sound upgrades so we have our answer! The problem with implementing this is the afore-mentioned copyright and authenticity concerns (when adding community-made sound mods) and the large amount of work involved (if making a new, compliant sound mod) for a team with limited resources. I'm eternally optimistic and I think we'll see some movement on this at some point. I really like Azimech's suggestion. Instead of DT having to research & produce a new sound mod (or get permissions for the whole array of sounds from a community-made mod) they would need to adjust the structure of IL-2's sound sample storage in such a way that they could easily be replaced en-mass (they might even be able to insert some sort of doppler fly-by support). Sounds could be made accessible in the same way that aircraft skins are accessible currently. I remember hearing one of the DT members (Caspar or CsThor maybe??) saying that DT doesn't have a lot of expertise in sound production (perhaps this has changed?) but they do have expertise in coding and they have access to the dev tools. In my uninformed view, Azimech's solution plays to both DT's strengths in coding and game asset management and also to those of the community sound gurus like Jafa or Tiger33. I'd be very interested to hear what DT thinks of this.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


The IL2 sound engine was created and made secure after some hacking a while back, its not as simple as messing with some sound samples, online security for sound hacks was a big problem and still is in modded IL2 versions.


When these sound samples from mod compilers are looked at they are simplistic and poor quality samples in most cases, I have heard nothing from any of them that sound as dynamic as the default IL2 1946 sound engine with my sound set up, not onboard sound and desktop speakers either, its been said before that a lot blame the poor IL2 sound engine when listening to it with low quality audio components.

To be able to record at the correct quality and dynamic range of all the required engines for IL2 would be a task to far I think .

.

[Fafnir_6]

The IL2 sound engine was created and made secure after some hacking a while back, its not as simple as messing with some sound samples, online security for sound hacks was a big problem and still is in modded IL2 versions.

When these sound samples from mod compilers are looked at they are simplistic and poor quality samples in most cases, I have heard nothing from any of them that sound as dynamic as the default IL2 1946 sound engine with my sound set up, not onboard sound and desktop speakers either, its been said before that a lot blame the poor IL2 sound engine when listening to it with low quality audio components.

To be able to record at the correct quality and dynamic range of all the required engines for IL2 would be a task to far I think .


.

Ahh. I suppose there would be some problems... I wasn't suggesting opening up the sound engine per se. I was merely suggesting the creation of a new location for non-default wave files that the sound engine could be made to look for (maybe a switch in the sound setup for default or user-defined .wavs?). Naturally, security for online play should be paramount.

As for the quality of the modded sounds, could that not be the choice of the user? Right now I could make a real crappy skin for my Hellcat with the logo of Northrop Grumman lifted right from their website (just to spite them) and play with that. I know some people are devotees of the stock sounds (which is great, you are already happy) but many of us would like to be able to use Jafa, Tiger33, etc in our stock install. There is a reason that the first mod was soundmod.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

[KG26_Alpha]

Ahh.

As for the quality of the modded sounds, could that not be the choice of the user? Right now I could make a real crappy skin for my Hellcat with the logo of Northrop Grumman lifted right from their website (just to spite them) and play with that. I know some people are devotees of the stock sounds (which is great, you are already happy) but many of us would like to be able to use Jafa, Tiger33, etc in our stock install. There is a reason that the first mod was soundmod.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


I think we are agreeing along the same lines here, with keeping the online content secure, I'm more than happy with my stock sounds with my hardware, but I'm no stranger to the "dark side" mods.

The reason for the sound mod was people couldn't be bothered to upgrade their sound hardware and wanted someone else to fix it for free, I know that most will say they sound much better and I agree up to a certain point but they simply are not as dynamic or in depth as stock sounds and I don't mean the initial WoW flyby effect I mean the in cockpit sound when flying for an hour or more.




.

[Bricks]

Thanks for your thorough reply, Fafnir_6!

I wasn't sure if Casper was referring to your post in general or to just a specific part. It would be cool if anybody official could be a bit more specific.



I'm not sure if the engine is the real problem. Yes, it has it's limitations - the sonar was already mentioned. But if you know "the dark side" there is at least room for optimization. ;)

Question is: Is it worth the effort? The stuff already added is stunning, but you can gather the resources largely at home. Try that with a Merlin- or Jumo-Engine. I guess it's much more effort, especially on the legal/financial side.


Well, anyway. I got so used to the IL2-Sounds and how to amplify them to the best outcome, I sure can live with the vanilla sounds.

[Fafnir_6]

Haha. No problem! To be honest, I don't know if Caspar was agreeing in general or specific either, but I remember hearing him or some other member of DT saying something to the effect that they aren't against adding new sounds if they could satisfy the issues surrounding it (it may have been in DT's request thread...).

As to whether it is worth incorporating new sounds into a future DT patch, I would look at the reasons that people turn to the community mods for enhancing their IL-2 experience: Better sounds (in the ear of the listener), 6DoF, MDS (prior to 4.10), effects packages, and things like map/cockpit repaints are the main ones. The change suggested by Azimech would remove the need for many non-track-IR users to use mods and would make the game more customizable for people with different desires for their flying experience. Sounds like a good idea to me but then I'm not privy to what it might entail to implement this.

@KG26 Alpha: I hear you :). I just think it would be nice to not be forced to turn to mods if you don't wish your R-2800 to sound the same as a DB605. Preserving online security is the paramount concern, however. Thanks for enlightening me WRT the original soundmod. I thought it was made to get the game sounding closer to reality rather than as a workaround for sound hardware problems.

This issue is near and dear to my heart so if I prattle on too long & loud about it, anyone is welcome to tell me to shut up :).

Cheers,

Fafnir_6