Oleg, what about SoW and DLC?

[addman]

I hope this time, instead of releasing tons of free content (new planes, objects, vehicles etc.) in every patch, you will charge for it so you can actually make a decent profit out of the game. Also it gives the customer freedom of choice, "do I want this plane or that tank?" etc. DLC should be very easy to distribute AND pirate-free from the Steam platform also.

[robtek]

As much as i want OM to get a tidy profit out of his project, as much i am opposed to DLC!!!
I believe the il2-solution to sell additional upgrades/mission-packs with the necessary planes
and ground-models is perfect, as it guarantees that online, everybody has the same game when
flying in a war-theater.
Also everybody has the choice if he is interested in a theater to buy it or not.
Unlimited freedom of choice is not always a good thing.
Further i believe that the use of steam as a ADDITIONAL distribution path is great, but i want
to hold my game, with some additional material (maps, badges or something else), in my hands.

[addman]

I agree with you on the physical ownership part. There has been no mention that there won't be a physical version of the game so no worries there. You're not the only one who wants the collector's edition with the linnen (?) map of the channel area;)

[Foo'bar]

Just give me a 109, 110 and 88, all other cockpits I don't need ;)

[tagTaken2]

As much as i want OM to get a tidy profit out of his project, as much i am opposed to DLC!!!
I believe the il2-solution to sell additional upgrades/mission-packs with the necessary planes
and ground-models is perfect, as it guarantees that online, everybody has the same game when
flying in a war-theater.
Also everybody has the choice if he is interested in a theater to buy it or not.
Unlimited freedom of choice is not always a good thing.


RoF sell their planes individually, but everyone flies the same game- it just means that you can only fly the planes you own- you can still shoot down the Handley Page even if you haven't bought it.
I think rather than selling theatres, scenarios or battles could be packaged. Midway or Flying Tigers, rather than 'the Pacific'. Means people are less able to complain that their favourite type is absent when it didn't participate in a battle.

[robtek]

I believe that DLC sets the priority to money production, just in case of RoF one has to buy planes to stay in competition.
Also i believe that DLC favors the all time favorites, say Bf 109, Spit, La5, F4U, F6F, Ki84....
and so on.
Who would buy a Fairey Battle, or a Hs123 or a Swordfish, apart for a few really interested in that plane?
To have a sound game, were there are not only 109 and spits over the channel i.e., the way of the package is much better.
Of course the big theaters could be splitted, say early war vs. late war, or sub-theaters like the sino-jap-war.

[Coen020]

I don't know if anyone has seen Railworks on steam, they do a pretty good job at making DLC for their game.

They continue to bring out new trains for anyone to buy, for if i remember correctly; a really affordable price.

Although i do indeed think it can get annoying to continously buy individual planes for Storm of War. I would also like to see complete packages, theatres in this case maybe.

I'm just saying that perhaps Oleg & team can take an example out of Railworks.

[Qpassa]

Idl DLC's, I would like vanilla stuff, no more things

[HanneG]

I hope this time, instead of releasing tons of free content (new planes, objects, vehicles etc.) in every patch, you will charge for it so you can actually make a decent profit out of the game. Also it gives the customer freedom of choice, "do I want this plane or that tank?" etc. DLC should be very easy to distribute AND pirate-free from the Steam platform also.

Yes please I want to pay mucho for stuff that used to be free and don't get me started with what a pain it has been to download all that free stuff and now all that free stuff is sitting on my harddrive coercing me to play it incessantly... Oh and yeah Steam rocks, I like it when I can't do with my stuff as I please and I like being at the mercy of a company that may or may not exist tomorrow.

[Feathered_IV]

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

[Qpassa]

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

well, 15$ for a plane (HP400) isnt that I want for SOW:BOB :(

[Feathered_IV]

well, 15$ for a plane (HP400) isnt that I want for SOW:BOB :(

In your expert opinion, how long do you figure it would take to model, animate and code a single flyable aircraft for Storm of War? How many specialists do you estimate would need to be involved, and how much money do you reckon they would expect from Oleg at the end of each working day? Would you care to share with us how much you think a single aircraft would cost in research and development?

[Foo'bar]

Feathered, you're totally right though 15$ for a single craft is too much compared to 50$ for the hole sim. Making a sim is much more expensive than making only one craft ;)

less than 5$ for each would be fair imho.

[yellonet]

In your expert opinion, how long do you figure it would take to model, animate and code a single flyable aircraft for Storm of War? How many specialists do you estimate would need to be involved, and how much money do you reckon they would expect from Oleg at the end of each working day? Would you care to share with us how much you think a single aircraft would cost in research and development?
Please, I don't think there's a need for that attitude.

Going from loads and loads of flyables in IL-2x which of many were free to $15 per plane might be shooting yourself in the foot.
Sure, the development going into an aircraft for SoW is a lot more time consuming and costly than the development of a plane for IL-2x but I'm not sure that that alone is enough to make people appreciate going from free planes to paying that much for a single one.

The patches including new aircraft, 3D models and other improvements of the simulator has no doubt been a strong selling point for IL-2x.
Exchanging this for a completely different business model where you in essence try to milk as much money out of the customer for upgrades to the game, may not be the best idea.

Adding content for free is a pretty good way of creating customer loyalty while at the same time making the product more attractive for new customers.

[Tree_UK]

I think its too early in the day to know what format SOW will appear in, I imagine Oleg doesn't know himself at the moment and obviously the publisher will have a big say in this decision. If there is going to be a boxed version, there will have to be some kind of marketing process to see how many potential sales can be generated, this effects how many boxes are made, DVD's pressed etc. This usually takes between 3-6 months.

[Ernst]

My fear is that people starts to think some aircraft has to be better because he bought it. And my fear is that developers turn some better because they want to sell it.

[Sven]

I wouldnt like to see RoFs system adapted, it works though, and I bought quite a lot but I think since WW2 is so versatile in battle grounds, my vote goes to big expansion packs like IL2 series did. The model of RoF fits the conflict which is area wise rather small, so there´s no big changes to be made there. In WW2 however we have numerous fronts where fierce battles were fought, it just fits big expansions better.

[The Kraken]

Oleg already meantioned that he doesn't want to follow the RoF model with single plane downloads. And it does have the problem that once the more popular models are covered it will get difficult to fund further development.

On the other hand it should be clear that we have to spend more money one way or the other if sim development is to continue. Rising budgets and falling income on a shrinking market don't go well together.

[KG26_Alpha]

IMHO

There is nothing wrong with the old system in IL2 1946.

Whenever an addon was released everyone bought it (online pilots) and everyone was compatible for online play.

In fact the Western market pilots demanded the release of the Russian PE2 (Peshka) addon be available for them, this arrived in the form of Bootny Box from UBI and caused a lot of "problems" for many.

The latest trend to remove your hard earned cash from your wallets is the DLC mugging system, my kids and their friends pay for new maps, weapons and other "essential" items to continue their endless virtual massacre of the universe and these items run into the hundreds of pounds not just a few quid here or there.

For The new Sim........

Keep the old system it works best for compatibility :)

[Flanker35M]

S!

With Alpha on this :) DLC is legalized scamming in some cases and a way forcing players to get that extra thing to game to be an even better "boom headshot" or whatever.

[nearmiss]

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

There would be problems, because having the correct aircraft with proper keys in the programming would be critical to having a decent Online game.

Oleg has mentioned how the multiplayer game went to pot when the IL2 code was hacked. This would probably mean "no 3rd party addons" of any kind could be allowed in BOB SOW.

Any openings into the code would be detrimental to the application. Oleg kept the code tight in IL2 for a long time, and then overnight---- wham, that was over. Someone finally found the gateway into the code and it was hacked.

Most of us who have been with the IL2 appreciate the way the code was managed to keep a viable online experience, up to recently.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Cheating and "gaming the game" and other negative stuff was in IL-2 online gaming long before it was hacked. The cheaters will cheat anyway, be the game a stock one or otherwise compiled one. Far easier to blame certain circumstances for online "dying" when it was already dying years ago due lack of any true new content. The gap between patches was VERY long. Now 4.10m added new stuff and it can be seen with slightly higher numbers in HL, but far from the times when IL-2 was younger.

SoW will allow 3rd Party stuff, but this time it is totally different. The proper tools and specific documentation will be released by the developers, not like in IL2 where the "other guys" learned thru trial & error. Only TD got the true tools one odd year ago to create new stuff for IL-2 and approval for it. Comparing SoW and IL-2 is fruitless as the starting points are so different regarding 3rd party work and their implementation.

[The Kraken]

There would be problems, because having the correct aircraft with proper keys in the programming would be critical to having a decent Online game.

Oleg has mentioned how the multiplayer game went to pot when the IL2 code was hacked. This would probably mean "no 3rd party addons" of any kind could be allowed in BOB SOW.

Oleg has already explained that he hopes 3rd party developers will use SoW as a platform, and that for example full startup procedures might be possible for them if they choose to go so far with their detail level (i.e. beyond what SoW will initially cover). There is no technical barrier that would prevent this, only an organizational effort. After all, already Il2 had various 3rd party planes included in various releases.

[BigC208]

I don't mind downloading software. As long as I can also burn it to disk or order a hardcopy. Don't mind downloading updates but do not accept constant online requirement to be able to play.

When RoF came out I passed gracfully. Once they did away with the constant online requirement I bought the Iron Cross edition. Probably spend over $100 on the game so far. They have sales every now and then. Paying 3 or 4 bucks is not a bad deal. Paid $11 for the HP400. Compared to what the FSX addons go for not too bad. Besides, you don't have to buy it. The basic plane package is enough to keep most of us happy for a while.

Still I don't think the RoF route is the best to go for SoW. Too many fronts. Much better to stick with theater addons they can charge$50-$60 for with 5-10 flyable planes. That way the less popular historical planes still get some attention.

Demanding free content that we got at the beginning of Il2 is commercial suicide. The only free downloads I demand are bug fixes. Charge me a fair price and stay in bussiness to support and expand the SoW series.

[Blackdog_kt]

I agree as well.

Also,

As much as i want OM to get a tidy profit out of his project, as much i am opposed to DLC!!!
I believe the il2-solution to sell additional upgrades/mission-packs with the necessary planes
and ground-models is perfect, as it guarantees that online, everybody has the same game when
flying in a war-theater.
Also everybody has the choice if he is interested in a theater to buy it or not.
Unlimited freedom of choice is not always a good thing.
Further i believe that the use of steam as a ADDITIONAL distribution path is great, but i want
to hold my game, with some additional material (maps, badges or something else), in my hands.

I think freedom of choice is good, but i agree on the rest. What if i am forced to sit out three missions in a row on a server because i didn't buy the DLC planes that are being used in the mission? What if a battle of France mission can't progress at all and we are all forced to sit it out for 3 boring hours waiting for the timer to expire, because everyone bought the hot-rod fighters and nobody bought the lowly Fairey Battles to actually do the ground pounding with?

Itemized content sales are good for different gaming genres. For games that want to emulate reality and depict history in a somewhat accurate fashion, selling expansions that contain an entire theater is a much better course of action for the reasons robtek stated.


In short, i don't demand freebies. I just think that itemized, single-aircraft downloads will seriously diminish variety in the online matches and hurt the overall gameplay quality and compatibility between players (even if they still can join in the mission without having the DLC plane, they can't fly it and are restricted), possibly even the historical accuracy of the experience as a whole. Mission builders can't or won't build realistic or interesting missions if nobody buys the "crap plane" that was used on the original operation, or it's not even available as AI.

Last time i checked up on RoF a few months ago, it still spawned 1917 aircraft types as opponents to the player's 1916 aircraft because they didn't have enough types (even as AI only) to adequately cover earlier scenarios. And that's another pitfall right here, itemized DLC sales provide enough of an incentive to dev studios to focus on providing flyable aircraft only (since they are the ones that can be expected to be payware), even if non-flyables and AI units are sorely needed to flesh out the sim's historical context and game world.


Look at a vanilla IL2 install and open up the FMB. Don't look at the flyable stuff, look at the rest of the aircraft, the AI ground units, the static objects. These are the tools the mission builder needs to create a living, breathing, accurate and interesting world for the rest of us to fly into. Not to mention that with SoW's rumored built-in modding support, the more AI units we have the more chance of someone in the community making it player-driven at some point: better gameplay for us, extra added value for the game (and thus, for Oleg's team as well), everyone wins.
If all we had was the flyables and only a handful of AI IL2 would have died off ages ago.

This is definitely not what i expect of SoW and i'm very glad that OM himself has said that piecemeal DLC is not a good business model for flight sims.
Sure, charge me enough to help the devs turn a profit, i'll gladly pay full game price for any subsequent expansion, i'm obviously not opposed to these guys getting paid for their countless hours of work.

I just want a nice box with maybe a collectible item inside like the old games (or a real manual) and a more or less complete theater right out of the box, instead of counting nickels and dimes and trying to choose which plane i will buy depending on what's used on the servers i like to fly on, or waiting for DLC to go on a reduced price promo sale. Pop the disk in the drive, install, start it up and go fly the entire theater with all its different missions and tactically varied operations, instead of just three aircraftagainst the same three opponents doing the same thing every single mission ;)

[SlipBall]

I'm sure that Oleg has a business plan all ready for SOW. I don't think that he requires our financial advice.

[Krt_Bong]

Yes please I want to pay mucho for stuff that used to be free and don't get me started with what a pain it has been to download all that free stuff and now all that free stuff is sitting on my harddrive coercing me to play it incessantly... Oh and yeah Steam rocks, I like it when I can't do with my stuff as I please and I like being at the mercy of a company that may or may not exist tomorrow.

You're not at the mercy of anyone, Steam isn't going to disappear tomorrow and even if it were going to close their published policy on that is to unlock anything that they sell to be playable without it, even now you can play online when and if the server is down. It adds cost when you get a boxed copy with all kinds of printed materials included so for some a digital download is just fine while others prefer something in hand it's all good.

[mazex]

I'd much rather see SoW adopt a business model like Rise of Flight has. The days of cheap addons and free sh*t are well over. Time to move on and develop as system that is sustainable.

+1

A niche like ours is really to small to sustain the development costs needed to satisfy the demands here if the games are sold at $49. I think a DLC system like the one RoF uses is a must unless you go the way with a base price of $125 like Steel Beasts Pro...

Sell new maps (large ones) for $10-20 and aircraft for $7-12 and I will buy most of what they throw at me... I must have spent something like $120 at RoF up to date buying all planes and I'm not done buying their stuff yet ;) With the original IL2 model I would have paid $39 up to this date (as all the extra planes would have been free "patches")

My .2 /Mazex

[Igo kyu]

+1

A niche like ours is really to small to sustain the development costs needed to satisfy the demands here if the games are sold at $49. I think a DLC system like the one RoF uses is a must unless you go the way with a base price of $125 like Steel Beasts Pro...

...

I must have spent something like $120 at RoF up to date buying all planes and I'm not done buying their stuff yet ;)
Maybe you did buy all that stuff, but I've bought nothing of RoF at all. The question is, how many of each of us are there?

In fact, time for a poll? or is it not allowed because RoF is a competing product?

[robtek]

DLC, in my opinion, has been developed to get todays kids, with their short attention span, something new every few days to spent their money on.
As each item itself is not expensive they aren't aware how they are spending more of their money as they realize.

[mazex]

DLC, in my opinion, has been developed to get todays kids, with their short attention span, something new every few days to spent their money on.
As each item itself is not expensive they aren't aware how they are spending more of their money as they realize.

Exactly! Wonderful isn't it? ;) We here in this forum want this sim so bad that a vast majority will gladly be "fooled" into spending $100+ to get "the full Monty" (why are we here for years otherwise?)... If the "kids"/regular users get "tricked" into buying "too much" Maddox Games will get more money and we win in the long term as Oleg will continue in this niche and not focus on cameras or dive tours in the Black Sea... M'kay?

[Blackdog_kt]

Maybe you did buy all that stuff, but I've bought nothing of RoF at all. The question is, how many of each of us are there?

In fact, time for a poll? or is it not allowed because RoF is a competing product?

Exactly. There are many reasons i didn't jump on the RoF wagon and it's not so much about the money. What this business model does is fragment the base content pool of the game to the point where it hinders multiplayer and accurate representation of the game's intended setting.

Like i said before, i have no problem paying for stuff. I just prefer paying $50 for a full expansion with maps, flyables and AI aircraft than paying $5 a piece for individual flyables only. It makes for too much of a "disjointed" feel of the game for my taste and a lack of a common ground.

Your mileage may vary of course. Also, this is not a problem for RoF yet because it's still light on the amount of aircraft it models. What i'm really interested to see is what happens a couple of years down the line, when they'll have enough planes to span the entire WWI timeframe sold separately.

I can't help but imagine myself joining a server and having the full complement of 1917 aircraft and a few 1916 ones, flying 2-3 missions and then it switches to a 1915 planeset...Ooooops, i didn't buy any 1915 planes. Let's disconnect and try another one.
Notice here that i'm also discounting the fact that the server pool for each one of us is a bit limited, since out of 50 servers there may be 10 that run our preferred difficulty settings, but let's keep it simple for argument's sake. I fly 4-5 missions again and wham, a mission with a 1915 planeset comes up. I have to disconnect and jump to another server again.

So, after a couple of days of this i cave in and buy a couple of 1915 planes that are on a promo offer. I have no guarantee that these 2 planes out of a total of maybe 10 or more will be used in the mission next time i go online. So, i have to probably end up buying more than half of the year's planeset to make sure i have something to fly.

Multiply this with the amount of different servers running different difficulty settings, missions, planesets and preferences of the people who fly there and it gets more complicated than modded IL2 really fast.

Highly possible forum post: "omg, this biplane is so uber for a 1915 planeset, let's not include it in the missions from now on"...too bad if you bought just that one. Also, how about everyone buying the hot rod planes and nobody flying the others?
Sooner or later, this business model ends up with most people flying the same aircraft (either the "uber" planes or the ones that are frequently used in most missions) and doing the same tasks all the time.

IL2's system was and still is the best for flight sims: as much of a complete theater/timeframe as possible depicted per each expansion. And if you think the time of free flyables has gone by never to return ok, let's only have payware flyables. Just not one at a time.

What a sim needs to build a community that will make it a success, is the necessary tools to recreate history in a reasonably priced package. IL2 had it and that's why it was and still is a success. Are you an offliner? No problem, there's hundreds of campaigns to download. Are you an onliner? There's loads of servers with varied missions to fly on.
None of this would be possible however if each piece of the puzzle was sold separately because NOBODY would have the exact same pieces as anybody else, so nobody would bother making content for a game if he couldn't be sure about sharing it with the other fans.

Sure, i might end up paying for aircraft that i would rarely fly on my own with this system, but it unties the mission builder's hands to use more obscure and interesting types instead of the same old favorites, just because they can be sure that everyone has them installed.

The money issue can be solved by pricing each expansion appropriately. I could pay $50 either way, but i would take a $50 expansion with 10 flyables over 10 individual planes of $5 each on any given day and the reason is simple. It's not about the money, it's about the improved gameplay that ensues when everyone has extra choices.

Give us expansions instead of piecemeal bread crumbs here and there and SoW will succeed for the same reasons IL2 did.