Questions regarding the He-111 bombloads

[Avimimus]

Regarding the !doubling! of the H-2's bombload:
Could someone explain this? Is it historical? Why wasn't it changed earlier? Was it actually used operationally and why aren't the lightened bombloads available as an option?

Regarding the H-6:
Did no H-6's carry four bombs externally? What is historical?

It would be nice if these changes were explained - or at the very least announced!

P.S. Is it true that the H-12 could also carry six bombs, but that this wasn't done as this rare variant was needed for the Hs-293?

[SlipBall]

quote
Regarding the !doubling! of the H-2's bombload:
Could someone explain this? Is it historical?


Historically, the bomb load was increased to 55oo during the time of BOB. I'm not sure what it was in latter years.:grin:

[TinyTim]

Yes, the 8xSC250 carried internally is historically correct.

Here are the bomb containers during production:

http://www.shrani.si/f/1A/uz/1zzQCNJG/abwurf1.jpg

and here they are installed in a He 111:

http://www.shrani.si/f/2H/s/2p8hz2CY/esache111.jpg

(only 3 visible on each side, but there were 4).

http://www.romseymodellers.co.uk/content/images/Heinkel111/h8.jpg

[JG53Frankyboy]

I found it strange that more options with 28 SC50 for the JU88 were intoduced. Because in Game only the second bombbay "works". And that had only 10 SC50 possible. The First bombbay , that could load 18 SC50, was normaly used for additional fuel.....

[Avimimus]

Thanks - so the H2 has largely been answered - but questions still stand on the H6!

[csThor]

Carrying four larger bombs externally was not possible before the introduction of the same new ETC as you can see on the new H-12. Which means prior to 4.10 the H-6 carried too much.

[LukeFF]

Was the H-12 ever used in combat? All my sources say it wasn't - that it was mainly used for training in the Baltic.

[csThor]

It wasn't. It was mainly a testbed for the Hs 293, but we needed to give the players an aircraft that can operate the new guided weapons.

[LukeFF]

It wasn't. It was mainly a testbed for the Hs 293, but we needed to give the players an aircraft that can operate the new guided weapons.

Cool, thanks. :)

[Avimimus]

Thanks,

A bomber with only two external hardpoints is an interesting plane.

It is also interesting that MG's standards for research were a bit lower back in the day.

P.S. Isn't the rack on the H-12 actually a PVC instead of an ETC?
(no real idea what either means)...

[csThor]

No idea. I'm no authority on external bomb attachment devices. ;)

[_1SMV_Gitano]

Thanks,

A bomber with only two external hardpoints is an interesting plane.

It is also interesting that MG's standards for research were a bit lower back in the day.

P.S. Isn't the rack on the H-12 actually a PVC instead of an ETC?
(no real idea what either means)...

We are talking about technical details of war planes that flew fifty-sixty years ago. Plus add the fact that in may cases the documentation was lost, etc. The matter is controversial and always will.

Anyway, talking about the He 111, the aircraft had already an internal load of 2000 kg, but its bomb bays were not able to contain bombs larger than the SC 250. Thus came the racks. There were two types of racks, ETC for bombs up to 2000 kg (or more?) and the PVC racks for torpedoes. At the moment I don't recall the name of the rack used in the H-12.

[Avimimus]

So it isn't decisively settled? Rats! Of course, I just looked through a couple hundred pictures of He-111s (primarily online) and I've yet to see a load-out that matches the original one in Il-2 - although I've found pictures of He-111's carrying a single 250kg bomb externally (which means that we're missing the 250kg payloads)!

There were PVC1006 were designed for large bombs, but were converted for torpedoes (PVR1006L?) - in addition to the ETC-2000.

The five bomb universal rack is refered to as another form of PVC and was introduced on some H-11 series (according to the Wikipedia - however I lack the book cited).

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/img/he111/cr111-165.jpg

Here is a picture showing the same rack with what appear to be the small supply pallets (there were at least three types - 250kg ones, 700kg crates, and the late war 800kg ones).

P.S. Bizarrely, there is also mention of a field mod with three fixed forward firing guns!

[Biggs [CV]]

The He-111H-4 was equipted with 2 external racks for a 3968lb bombload. They also had Jumo 211D-1 engines for more power, and had more fuel capacity for increased range. (Per: The Concise Guide to Axis Aircraft of World war 2, by David Mondey.)

[KG26_Alpha]

More strangely the H6 2xSC 2000 kg payload has been halved to 1xSC 2000 kg in v4.10

Also there no point in using 2xSC1000 kg payload as they cannot be dropped separately.

The JU88A4 had a fantasy load out of 2xSC2000 in v409m, but the H6 could carry this so why has it been removed ?





.

[Avimimus]

More strangely the H6 2xSC 2000 kg payload has been halved to 1xSC 2000 kg in v4.10

Also there no point in using 2xSC1000 kg payload as they cannot be dropped separately.

The JU88A4 had a fantasy load out of 2xSC2000 in v409m, but the H6 could carry this so why has it been removed ?

.

The highest bombload carried by a He-111 was a little over 3200kg - and that required rocket assistance for takeoff. The programmer simply doubled the bomb load for all larger bombs because they assumed that bombloads are always mounted symmetrically.

There are indeed photos of 2xSC1000 loadouts - but SC1000 were usually carried one at a time and this was always the case with the larger bombs.

[JG52Uther]

It wasn't. It was mainly a testbed for the Hs 293, but we needed to give the players an aircraft that can operate the new guided weapons.

You could give us a flyable Dornier... ;)

[KG26_Alpha]

The highest bombload carried by a He-111 was a little over 3200kg - and that required rocket assistance for takeoff. The programmer simply doubled the bomb load for all larger bombs because they assumed that bombloads are always mounted symmetrically.

There are indeed photos of 2xSC1000 loadouts - but SC1000 were usually carried one at a time and this was always the case with the larger bombs.


Some tech info on the He111 H6

From

Jane`s Fighting Aircraft of World war II
isbn 1 85170 199 0
Bracken Books
London
Originally published by Jane`s Publishing Company 1946/47

Specification.- He111H-6.
Year.- 1939.
Crew.- Five (pilot, Observer, Radio operator/gunner, Engineer/Gunner , Gunner).
Power Plant.- Two Junker Jumo 211D-2 12-cylinder, liquid-cooled engines each developing 1200 hp.
take-off and emergency 1,200 hp. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.35 ata at sea-level,
1,210 h.p. at 2.400 r.p.m. at 1.35 ata at 820 ft.
climbing 930 h.p. at 2.300 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata. at sea-level,
930 h.p. at 2,300 r.p.m. at 1.15 ata. at 16,500 ft. maximum cruising 790 h.p. at 2,100 r.p.m.
at 1.1 ata, at sea-level, 800 h.p. at 2,100 r.p.m. at 1.1 ata, at 14,700 ft.
Dimensions.- Span 74 ft , 3 in. (22,6 meter), Length 54 ft. 6 in. (16,6 m), Height 13 ft. 9 in.
(4,2 m), Wing aria 942 sq. ft. (87,6 sq. m.).
Weights.- Weight empty 17,000 lbs. (7,720 kg.) , Normal loaded weight 26,500 lbs. (12,030 kg.),
Maximum permissible overloaded weight 31,000 lbs. (14,075 kg.).
Performance.- Maximum speed 250 m.p.h. (400 km.h.) at 17,000 ft. ( 5,185 m.),
max speed 258mph (416 km.h.) at 19,680ft.
Climb to 17,000 ft (5.185 m.) 20 mins., Service ceiling 27,500 ft. (8,390 m.),
Range with maximum fuel 1,750 miles (2,800 km.).




I'm not commenting on performance or the loadouts ;)

I just wondered why they were changed.

Also interesting Vid for bomb release systems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUn9N2haoc8&feature=related

[Avimimus]

Weights.- Weight empty 17,000 lbs. (7,720 kg.) , Normal loaded weight 26,500 lbs. (12,030 kg.),
Maximum permissible overloaded weight 31,000 lbs. (14,075 kg.).

[...]

I'm not commenting on performance or the loadouts ;)

I just wanted to know why they were changed.


Note that two SC2500 could be carried if we simply compared empty and maximum permissible overload. However, comparison between the overloaded weight and the normal loaded weight allows for only one SC-2000. It would be interesting to find out what was actually included in 'normal loaded weight' (I'm assuming no bombload).

This is probably due to the fact that aircraft require such things as crew and fuel (not to mention the desirability of defensive armament) if they are to work.

Very interesting video.

[JG53Frankyboy]

perhaps some of you remeber Butch2k rom the UBI forums.......
anyway, some years ago he posted a weapons loadout list for some planes.
here is his about the He111:

He 111 Loadouts

He 111H-2

Options:
1. Internal bays : 2x 4 ESAC 250/IX
One 4 ESAC 250/IX could be loaded with :
• 4x SC 250 or
• 16x SC 50 or
• 16x SC 70 or
• a combination : 2x SC 250 and 8 SC50/70 for instance.

So loads would be :
• 8x SC 250 or
• 32x SC 50 or
• 4x SC 250 and 16x SC50 or
• 32x SC 70 or
• 4x SC 250 and 16x SC70
• or any combination



He 111H-6


Options:
Three sub variants !!!

1. 1x ETC2000 (left) and PVC1006(right) (first 500 aircraft) or 2x ETC 2000 (501th aircraft and up)
• 1x SC 2500 or
• 2x SC 1000 or
• 2x SD 1400 or
• 2x LMB or
• 2x BSB 1000
(no internal loads)



2. 1x ETC 2000 (Left I think) and 1x 4 ESAC 250/IX
External loads :
• 1x SC 1800 or
• 1x SC 1000 or
• 1x SC/SD 500 or
• 1x SC 1000
Internal load :
The ESAC 250 could be loaded with :
• 4x SC 250 or
• 16x SC 50 or
• 16x SC 70 or
• a combination : 2x SC 250 and 8 SC50/70 for instance.

So some sample loads for the H-6 would be :
1x SC 1800 and 4x SC 250 or
2x SC 1000

3. 2x PVC 1006B (this is the torpedoes carrier version)
External loads :
• 2x Torpedoes