The new bomb fuzing needs to be an option.

[KG26_Alpha]

Keep on track guys please.

I've cleaned up the thread a bit.
And lets keep it friendly too from now on.

:)

[Flying Pencil]

While not a priority on my list, I agree, the ability to change the fusing is important.

[robtek]

While not a priority on my list, I agree, the ability to change the fusing is important.

Fusing or arming???

[Flying Pencil]

Fusing or arming???

Did I miss something?
The type of fuse will dictate when it will arm, and what will set it off (impact, time delay, disarming, even magnetic for mines)

[swiss]

Ok, I conducted some test tonight - although I can skip bomb now, I found out the fuses not only have a 2sec delay but also a 20m cap.

I tried this with the arado at 20m/750kph about 20 times.
The bomb definitely has >=2 secs before it touches the water, however the the bomb stayed disarmed in 100%.
Maybe my stopwatch is wrong... - if not, maybe TD can (or feels like) explain it?

DL ntrk from rapidshare (http://rapidshare.com/files/441742944/quick0039.ntrk)

[RAF_Swede]

Hello
I would sure like to see a track on how to properly skip bomb now.. If someone has posted one, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks

[Aviar]

Ok, I conducted some test tonight - although I can skip bomb now, I found out the fuses not only have a 2sec delay but also a 20m cap.

I tried this with the arado at 20m/750kph about 20 times.
The bomb definitely has >=2 secs before it touches the water, however the the bomb stayed disarmed in 100%.
Maybe my stopwatch is wrong... - if not, maybe TD can (or feels like) explain it?

DL ntrk from rapidshare (http://rapidshare.com/files/441742944/quick0039.ntrk)


Well, for what it's worth, this is directly from the 4.10 User Guide:

--------------------
This also applies to skip bombing: the bomb must be dropped from at least 25m and must not hit the ship before 2 seconds.
--------------------


Aviar

[Ernst]

I am loving. Is very difficult to suceed. Now i am feeling the odds of the fighter-bomb pilots like the real guys feel. Most of complains is because the guys are not suceeding like they did.

I do it (correct skip bombing and hit) only 30% of the times. I skiped i correctly and explode 80% of the times, but sometimes i missed the target. My bombing run is at about 50~80 meters. Bomb explode quite often.

If skip bombig was too easy like 4.09 the dive bombers were unecessary, specially at land targets. Now Stukas and other dive bombers ll make the difference they did do not made until now in IL2, since with this new feature i would prefer high angle dive bombing for precision.

[6S.Manu]

I am loving. Is very difficult to suceed. Now i am feeling the odds of the fighter-bomb pilots like the real guys feel. Most of complains is because the guys are not suceeding like they did.

I do it (correct skip bombing and hit) only 30% of the times. I skiped i correctly and explode 80% of the times, but sometimes i missed the target. My bombing run is at about 50~80 meters. Bomb explode quite often.

If skip bombig was too easy like 4.09 the dive bombers were unecessary, specially at land targets. Now Stukas and other dive bombers ll make the difference they did do not made until now in IL2, since with this new feature i would prefer high angle dive bombing for precision.

This + the wind; in IL2 4.10 it's very amusing using bombers, far more than before.
Have you tried level bombing from 5000m with 3 m/s of wind?

To me IL2 4.10 is like a new (better) game.

[JHartikka]

Pilots Wished Bomb SALVO Fix (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=209454&posted=1#post209454)- Got a Forced Delay 410m Fuse Instead! :(


i also thinking that adding this arming time for the bombfuze was the last thing this game needed :D



With all respect to the fine voluntary work for developing this fine historical IL2 flight simulator I certainly must agree with you!

The IL2 sim used to have very finely made simulation for low bombing modes prior to 410m! The bomb actually bounced or slided in these simulations on the ground like the wartime expert low bombing 'jabo' pilots performed it, for instance! :)

As a virtual bomber pilot familiar with real history of delay low bombing styles like slide / bounce bombing it is very regrettable that we the 410m now denies these most exciting and skill demanding bombing modes.


German fuses were timed and the ones used for low level horizontal attack used arming times of about 1s and delay settings of 14s. Note that due to the technical characteristics of the fuse the "save" arming time was about 1.6s minimum, lower than that would be risking duds.

Thank you for information! Here is a description that appears to match and supplement your fuse knowledge:


The Wartime German Bomb Fuse with Switchable Safety Delay

A story I recalled from Finnish wartime recollections about German bombs electric fuse. The big German bombs were known to have an electric fuse with safety delay option. It was rather simple yet versatile.

It could be used in automatic 'safety delay mode' (like the forced 410m fuse) or manually in no safety delay mode (quite unlike the forced 410m fuse). It even allowed arming and disarming bomb and switching safety delay on or off during flight.

I have understood that these electric fuses were used with bombers having crew more than on person so the one responsible for bomb release could control bomb arming and disarming. The cases I have collected from my country about small bombs like fighter bombs indicate that these had no safety delay.


German Electric Fuse Circuit Description

There were two capacitors in the German electric bomb fuse circuit. The first capacitor was the one charged from aircraft. It was connected to second actual fuse capacitor through a delay resistor between them.

When capacitor nr. 1 got a charge from a connector attached to the bomb, it would start charge the nr. 2 capacitor through the resistor which slowed the charging and thus caused an arming delay or safety delay. I guess the 410m 2 s safety fuse is related to those bombs having this electric fuse arming mode?

Knowing the capacitor 1 - resistor - capacitor 2 - electric fuse circuit we can now understand the operating modes of this German electric bomb fuse:


Electric Fuse Operating Modes

1. Automatic Safety Delay: When used as automatic, an electric connector attached through a swiveled arm to the bomb would give the capacitor nr. 1 electric charge shot just before the connector attached to a swiveled arm would be ripped off from the falling bomb. Now the bomb would be armed in free fall after the actual fusecapacitor nr. 2 would be charged through the resistor causing the automatic arming safety delay.

2. Manual arm and disarm from onboard: If the bomber staff person responsible for bombing gives the bomb a charge shot prior to releasing a bomb, it will arm itself in the alleged time and when released later, it will drop with no safety delay. He could also decide to disarm the bomb by shortcircuiting the bomb arming circuit. When shortcircuited, the arming capacitor nr 2 would bleed empty from charge through the delay resistor in about the time of the safety delay and the bomb would be disarmed again.

We see that this kind of electric bomb fuse circuit would allow the bomber crew to arm and disarm any bomb connected to onboard arming circuit and release the bomb either disarmed or armed. Further, this bomb arming circuit gave the crew an option to decide whether to use safety delay or not..! Alas, we virtual bomber pilots were not allowed to decide setting safety delay on or off with the rather incorrect 410m fuse... :(


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Finland


First Line HL Pilots about 410m Bomb Fuse

In this thread, we will discuss in proper civilized manner, of course. However, I guess that on the long run regarding developing this historical sim further it may be useful to get some direct user feedback, too. Here are some excerpts from HL pager discussions to tell how noted 'front line' virtual pilots really feel with the flawed 410m fuse. For obvious reasons I am pasting their feelings here incognito:


...cause low bombing in 4.10 has just be f##### up ;)

I tried to bomb some tgts w Pe-3 at ~ 150m, low level bombing, and bombs didnt even explode...whats the height limit for dropping?! ;)



i was told about 4.10
;))))
*full ##iiiiiit* for bombers and jabo..agree?



nain ne meittia kohtelee kuin spitaalisia:)))


Translated: They treat us (bomber pilots) like ve vere leprous :)))



####### 4.10 noob patch-((



Fortunately the new 410m '##### fuse' does not prevent all low bombing... ;)

One IL2 kills 14 tanks + 1 flak :o

http://war.by-airforce.com/rep/rep_10122.html



Wartime Aircraft Photos

Here are more photos that I scanned from my late uncle's album. More old photos are on threads http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=210220&posted=1#post210220 and http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=216588#post216588

[Ernst]

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.

[KG26_Alpha]

Again the problem is the casing stops the arming of the bomb if it touches the water/land/scenery before 2 seconds.

The arming could/should have been done on the bombs velocity not contact with terrain.

As already said by TD stopping Dog Fight server spawn killers dropping bombs at home bases is the main benefit of the 2 second delay in arming.





.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.

I'd say the reason skip wasn't done routinely against shipping was that, similar to torpedo runs, for any success you exposed yourself to the broad side of the ship that you attacked, you also had to get really close to your target to release the bomb. Every gun on that side of the boat would open up at you and you had a high probability of getting shot down.

In the sim the AI is too easy to fool following a decending curved path on your attack run.

When dive bombing your generally attacking the ship in its bow/stern axis so you've got a larger margin for error in your attack. You dont get as close to the ship and the ships guns can't all get a bead on you at the same time. In the sim the AI seems to be able to predict your attack path in a classic divebombing run and you've got a higher chance of getting hit using this method.

In real life I am sure that pilots would have used the strategies that gave them the best chance of wining and getting home alive.

In the sim you'ld be a mug not to use the method thats going to get your team the most points!

If skip bombing is more difficult pilots will just practice more and still get the same amount of kills. Without changes to the AAA AI it's still going to be the safest option, therefore pilots will still do it!

Cheers!

Cheers!

[JG52Uther]

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.
So the fact that a fixed 2 second fuse for all bombs is wrong isn't bothering you at all...Anyway,doesn't matter now,CoD is on the way,I don't really care anymore ;)

[Ernst]

The fixed 2 second is just because TD had not bomb fusing times for each specific bomb or the implementation time would have much more higher etc. Ask them why they used this fixed value. But i am sure this can be improved if they want.

[robtek]

So the fact that a fixed 2 second fuse for all bombs is wrong isn't bothering you at all...Anyway,doesn't matter now,CoD is on the way,I don't really care anymore ;)

It's only that the 2 sec. delay is less wrong than no delay!
Also the complaining about case and fuse, it's not modelled!
All TD can do is minimizing the errors, not remove them!

[ElAurens]

Well, in this case they did not minimize an error, they created a larger one.

I'm with JG52Uther on this now. Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.


I agree 100%

IL2 is still in development and the new title will take a very long time to top it

because nowadays IL2 has come in the user's hands and no nomenclature is in

position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting

simulation.

No worries :)

[Wutz]

Well, in this case they did not minimize an error, they created a larger one.

I'm with JG52Uther on this now. Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.

Absolutely agree, I hope that critical settings do not get tampered with in any near future by any non 1c people.

[JoeA]

Well, in this case they did not minimize an error, they created a larger one.

I'm with JG52Uther on this now. Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.

You guys really think there will be no such issues with CoD? It really seems like the old fallacy "harder=more realistic" which we know is not true has been turned around to "harder= less realistic" which is also not true.

I mean every plane type has similar g-limits for example (meaning by type) IIRC and every pilot is modelled the same-part of the compromise every sim programmer has to make.

Well really looking forward to spring and a whole new set of whines.*



*Not from you talking in general. ;)

[JoeA]

I agree 100%

IL2 is still in development and the new title will take a very long time to top it

because nowadays IL2 has come in the user's hands and no nomenclature is in

position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting

simulation.

No worries :)

You kidding?

"in user's hands and no nomenclature is in position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting simulation."

It wasn't exciting before? Fair is NOT realistic btw, most users just want to substitute "Oleg's world" for their "fantasy but it's mine so it's right world" nonsense.

[Jumoschwanz]

Practice makes perfect. I am sure that a large percentage of those who tried skip-bombing in WWII failed also.

[Ernst]

Practice makes perfect. I am sure that a large percentage of those who tried skip-bombing in WWII failed also.



+1

The real is that skip bombing was a hazardous tactic not used frequently as it was in IL2, exactly because in IL2 it was too easy. Some did not used skip, just approached low and close enough the ships and released the bombs, hiting directly. No fusing, they scored hits 100% times. This is not real.

p.s: to not say they suceed 100% always, sometimes one colided with the ship's cables. Hehehe...:cool::twisted:

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

You kidding?

"in user's hands and no nomenclature is in position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting simulation."

It wasn't exciting before? Fair is NOT realistic btw, most users just want to substitute "Oleg's world" for their "fantasy but it's mine so it's right world" nonsense.

Excuse me but you have no idea what i'm talking about ....

so .. give it some time & you will understand what i mean,

all in good time.

[ElAurens]

JoeA, I am only saying that the current situation with bomb fusing as implemented in the 4.10 patch is every bit as bad as it was before the patch. Just in a different way.

And I know there will be issues with Cliffs of Dover, but because that is all I will be flying, IL2's issues will no longer matter to me.

[MD_Titus]

JoeA, I am only saying that the current situation with bomb fusing as implemented in the 4.10 patch is every bit as bad as it was before the patch. Just in a different way.

And I know there will be issues with Cliffs of Dover, but because that is all I will be flying, IL2's issues will no longer matter to me.

this is entirely correct.

it was wrong and inaccurate before, and apparently it is still wrong and inaccurate, just in a markedly different way.

so, is this "realism" option going to be a selectable difficulty option, or are each kind of bomb going to get their correct fusing?

either do them all, or leave it be imo.

[Seeker]

Practice makes perfect. I am sure that a large percentage of those who tried skip-bombing in WWII failed also.

Are you going to publish your practise maps and how they're used? Tracks would be nice.

[robtek]

As at least 95% of the bombs in ww2 had a arming time of at least 0.9 sek and usual around 4 to 5 sec. the patch brought definitively a improvement.
Just take the challenge and stop pointing at the minority of bombs which had no arming time.

[WhiteSnake]

Problem is the minority of bombs that dont have an arming timing are the little ones wich where droped from relativly low altitude in real life and now can not be droped from that altitude anymorte because of this.

A lot of bombs also had an option to set the arming delay, so i hope on the small bombs and bomblets the arming delay can be removed completly, and for some bigger boms maybe it would be a nice option to set the arming time of the bomb between 1 and 5 seconds.

btw, the FritzX has No Arming Delay on it at all, it blows up if you drop it while parked at base or flying verry low, so should be a really easy fix to remove the Arming delay on the smaller bombs.

[Wolf_Rider]

if the bombing at spawn place was such a problem, why not have just locked the culprits' sorry ass out of the server?

[JoeA]

As at least 95% of the bombs in ww2 had a arming time of at least 0.9 sek and usual around 4 to 5 sec. the patch brought definitively a improvement.
Just take the challenge and stop pointing at the minority of bombs which had no arming time.
Well whines will never stop...people whind back in the day when only Olg and team could make changes, when the sim was hacked and mods could be made some whined about the mods and it will never end.

[TheDawg]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!




http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

[robtek]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!




http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

And from what to you deduct that???
Comparing the sizes that plane is 100m to 200m above the ship(300ft to 6ooft)
So he could easyly have dropped his load (multiple bombs by the way) at 100ft and pulled up afterwards.
As usual the people see what they want to see. (me included, still trying to lessen the influence, though)

[Wutz]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!




http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

Oh there are several such pictures which must be as of TDs 4.10 patch absolutely wrong. But it is pointless argueing as know it alls like robtek the jack of all trades & master of none know it simply better.
But with CoD coming out, I think the amature tampering will stop for a whole while.

[W32Blaster]

wutz you are my number one when it comes to polemic.
Why don´t you just give it a try and adopt to the newly implementad bomb fusing instead of wasting your time in giving pointless arguments over and over and over again.

Just a little straight forward attitude and your problems would be solved.

No intention to be derespectful, just lack of understanding for your position, i guess.

[Wutz]

wutz you are my number one when it comes to polemic.
Why don´t you just give it a try and adopt to the newly implementad bomb fusing instead of wasting your time in giving pointless arguments over and over and over again.

Just a little straight forward attitude and your problems would be solved.

No intention to be derespectful, just lack of understanding for your position, i guess.

Because it is Bull that is why! There are charts showing German bomb fuses.
What next because some one decides lets have a 10 min delay everyone just adapt right on.
That is why 4.10 was deleted, and will stay off my computer, and will not be needed for CoD
But W32Blaster you fit the picture, as you just mindlessly repeat what others say with out giving it some thought.
But I know arm chair experts know it all!
Sorry for that kind of hot air I have no use what so ever.

[W32Blaster]

Whoohooo, what a bad boy!

:)

[Wutz]

Whoohooo, what a bad boy!

:)

What ever kiddo, I don´t go by blah blah. But by facts like this:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2433/handwerkzeugbombenwurf.jpg

[TheDawg]

And from what to you deduct that???
Comparing the sizes that plane is 100m to 200m above the ship(300ft to 6ooft)
So he could easyly have dropped his load (multiple bombs by the way) at 100ft and pulled up afterwards.
As usual the people see what they want to see. (me included, still trying to lessen the influence, though)

Wouldn't you have to know the length of the ship and the plane to be able to start that guessing?
Its an A-20 Havoc, the angle that he at at the moment of the photo allows you go figure out what alt he was when he released the torpedo?
all that other splashing is garbage flying off the ship
I was stirring the pot- like every patch since I flew the original demo, it WONT matter what is done to the planes, the cockpits, the DM's the FM's, I'll figure it out and continue to rack major points, and enjoy the game, laff at the whiners and roll my eyes at folks who have never sat in a plane let alone a 70 year old warbird. :cool:

[MD_Titus]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!




http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

he's using the bombs to bludgeon the ship and it's crew, not blow it up. think 250-500lb baseball bat!

[robtek]

I found this document for some additional info about fuzes:

http://www.ordnance.org/fuzes.htm

or

http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/bombfuzedata1945.pdf

there one can see that with 1 or 2 exceptions all fuzes needed at least 1.9 sec. or at least 300ft air-travel to arm.
Those exceptions are delayed bombs.
The overwhelming majority needed MORE than 2 sec and usually 850 - 1100 ft. air-travel!!!

[Aviar]

Posted by daidalos.team on the 1C forum on Jan 24, 2011:

One of the most commented features of 4.10 has been the 2s bomb arming delay. We have listened to your feedback and spent a lot of time and energy reviewing and discussing this feature inside our team. In 4.101 we have removed arming delay from ampoule loadouts only. In 4.11 - we will rework the arming delay for each individual bomb based on available historical references and within limitations of IL-2 code. Plus we will make this feature optional either via an existing or a new difficulty switch.

Aviar

[ElAurens]

What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be seperate.

Too many people here feel that if you complain about this issue that you must be a wonder woman view flyer. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Furio]

What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be seperate.

Too many people here feel that if you complain about this issue that you must be a wonder woman view flyer. Nothing could be further from the truth.

+1

[Wutz]

What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be seperate.

Too many people here feel that if you complain about this issue that you must be a wonder woman view flyer. Nothing could be further from the truth.
+10

[W32Blaster]

-20

:)

Just kidding! Now Kindergarden Bombardiers have their option. It´ll be interesting to see which server will offer what configuration.

[JG52Uther]

-20

:)

Just kidding! Now Kindergarden Bombardiers have their option. It´ll be interesting to see which server will offer what configuration.

Realistic servers will probably offer a version of the game with selectable fusing options,as in real life,depending on the mission.
For people that want to fly a fantasy arcade version people can fly the stock game...
Oh and, j/k... ;)

[MD_Titus]

What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be seperate.

Too many people here feel that if you complain about this issue that you must be a wonder woman view flyer. Nothing could be further from the truth.
+many
-20

:)

Just kidding! Now Kindergarden Bombardiers have their option. It´ll be interesting to see which server will offer what configuration.

i...

sigh.

el_aurens point was lost i see.

[Bussard_1]

"What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be separate."

Full real is the strident request, but when offered it's not ALL of full real that is actually desired?

Mmmmm?

[orangefood]

GET RID OF THE BOMB TIMING!!!!

I spent a freaking hour trying to land at least one bomb on a ship...that EXPLODES!!! It is not cool. I know you are trying to make the game better, but please make it an option, its a flat out pain!

Thanks

S!

[IceFire]

GET RID OF THE BOMB TIMING!!!!

I spent a freaking hour trying to land at least one bomb on a ship...that EXPLODES!!! It is not cool. I know you are trying to make the game better, but please make it an option, its a flat out pain!

Thanks

S!

It's been announced that even more realistic and bomb specific fuseing will be added for 4.11 and that a feature to enable or disable these settings would also be added in that version.

It's very challenging to conduct some types of attacks now with bombs. It will take some significant adjustments... but it is doable. And if you hate it in a hopefully short period of time you'll be able to switch it off.

In the meantime... check out Dart's excellent video on how to skip bomb. It has helped me quite a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af4syRR5r7s

[robtek]

"What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be separate."

Full real is the strident request, but when offered it's not ALL of full real that is actually desired?

Mmmmm?

Thats what i am afraid of, when it is a option the majority is happy with less diificulty.
The elated feeling to get a mission done "against all odds", with still much less difficulty as it was in RL, sadly wont be missed by them.
But as long as there are servers who share my passion for as real as possible, i can live with that.

[swiss]

"What worries be about this statement is that they may combine it with another difficulty selection.

It needs to be separate."

Full real is the strident request, but when offered it's not ALL of full real that is actually desired?

Mmmmm?


So more difficult is automatically better?

Online missions usually have so many targets it was close to impossible to win the mission with the old fusing.
With 4.10 you're screwed square, plus it forces you to high alt attacks.

I don't even need turbulences, as a GAME never can immerse reality, it's just a freaking shaking screen, nothing more.

How about non-optional start procedures which take 5-10min, that would be awesome, no?

Do you guys really think just because you turn it into a super hard game you could fly a RL plane, or even feel like you were flying one?

I happy if they supply a FM which is somewhat close RL, again; it's a game (even if you call it sim) and that means it's entertainment.
Do yourself a favor and search for another hobby which offers the frustration you seek for.
Cheers.

[DKoor]

So more difficult is automatically better?

Online missions usually have so many targets it was close to impossible to win the mission with the old fusing.
With 4.10 you're screwed square, plus it forces you to high alt attacks.

I don't even need turbulences, as a GAME never can immerse reality, it's just a freaking shaking screen, nothing more.

How about non-optional start procedures which take 5-10min, that would be awesome, no?

Do you guys really think just because you turn it into a super hard game you could fly a RL plane, or even feel like you were flying one?

I happy if they supply a FM which is somewhat close RL, again; it's a game (even if you call it sim) and that means it's entertainment.
Do yourself a favor and search for another hobby which offers the frustration you seek for.
Cheers.

You surely understand that it ain't realistic to whine about bombs not arming when dropped while sitting on runway, 2m altitude etc. but if that is your cup of tea than fine.:)
Even now with new set of rules it is still easier than it was in RL.

Frankly I think everyone can do skip bombing run from 25m alt and that is all what is required now. With torpedoes situation is more tricky since you actually have to learn more about the procedure than to click release ordnance button.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b4d88a4/n/ju87_1800kg_410.ntrk

...in the link I provided you how to hit cargo with Stuka's most powerful ordnance, SC1800. Stuka is slow bomber and still wasn't caught by the blast with properly set delay.

Anyhow now I agree, this should be in difficulty options to simply turn it on/off, similar fashion as with cockpit on/off, so everyone has their joy.

EDIT:
Just watched Dart's bombing I think it's quite tough way to do it, at least for vast majority.
Check out my skip bombing for masses, the only thing required really is to be at least on 25m alt, and to hit the ship with bomb.
So this way you can actually do it with any bomber with any ordnance. Skip bombing for masses!:)

[Wutz]

Even now with new set of rules it is still easier than it was in RL.

Anyhow now I agree, this should be in difficulty options to simply turn it on/off, similar fashion as with cockpit on/off, so everyone has their joy.


Even though this topic has become obsolete with the up coming release of CoD.

How do you know how it was in RL? Where you there? I doubt anyone here on this forum was there in RL and that 98% of the people talking about the bomb arming bit have been as close to the stuff as a picture in a book.

Did you check out the pdf-file on German bombs? Did you read the bit where bombs could be set to a arming time of 0.08sec?
Up to now no documention has been presented that bombing as implied in 4.10 was the the rule, and that for all sides reguardless of country.
And no just because it is harder does not automatically mean it is more "real".

The issue with the spawn bombers could have been solved differently, be it that it is not possible to drop a bomb until the aircraft has left the ground.

Or that bombs dropped in the spawn = effect of bombs when you have been killed before the bomb hits, that nothing happens.

From my point of view with CoD coming this topic is through and I will not be down loading any patches any more for IL2.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Even though this topic has become obsolete with the up coming release of CoD.

This is not true.

[Wutz]

This is not true.
Well I do hope it is! That only 1c does the setting and not anyone who just feels in the mood to do so.

[F19_Klunk]

well I won't stop playing IL2 after the release of CoD so any patches will definately be downloaded by me... but I guess you are right; for some this issue is maybe a non-issue in March.
Actually I think that one of the reasons some guys complain about a sim (CoD) they have been waiting for 6 years now..and haven't even seen yet, is that they are suffering from separation anxiety. They know that even though IL2 will still be played after March release, it will never be the same again.... and the symptoms are quite obvious: irritation, judgements without evidence, outburst ..even crying ;)

[swiss]

You surely understand that it ain't realistic to whine about bombs not arming when dropped while sitting on runway, 2m altitude etc.
Even now with new set of rules it is still easier than it was in RL


That is exactly my point - I dont want it to be super realistic(real-what?).
It's a game and you'll have to find a balance between the needs of fun seekers and requirements of some die hard "I want it real" geeks.
The latter are probably the ones who fly Tokio-LAX realtime in Fsx, LOL.

Again:
It's game which has to attract as many ppl as possible, that affects sales too you know?
If you make it super hard(or realistic) the game becomes unaccessible for newbies. Deserted servers are great fun...

Now TD can change whatever they want, in fact it's very cool they gave the die hard bombers what they wanted, however TD sets standards for the whole community - that is the problem, respectively the reason why such stuff should be optional.

Just look at the servers, where are most ppl flying, what do they fly?
Fighters or bombers?
Bingo.
Now you know what the majority wants when playing IL2.
I'm pretty sure the new feature didn't help at all to change the Bombers-Fighters proportion.
More fighters, less bombers - is that what the ppl applauding to the new fusing wanted?
Their live gets even harder now - it's actually too funny robtek complained about not being able to bomb Portsmouth due to the overwhelming fighter mass.

[F19_Klunk]

I can understand both sides, and I guess it is a no-brainer to make it optional in difficulty settings... TD made a good decision there.

[KG26_Alpha]

Perhaps a switch to set realistic mg and canons jamming as in real life too ? :)

But enough of my trolling.....

Good decision from TD to make the 2 second fusing an option.

Looking forward to the v4.101 Well done !!

[DKoor]

That is exactly my point - I dont want it to be super realistic(real-what?).
It's a game and you'll have to find a balance between the needs of fun seekers and requirements of some die hard "I want it real" geeks.
The latter are probably the ones who fly Tokio-LAX realtime in Fsx, LOL.

Again:
It's game which has to attract as many ppl as possible, that affects sales too you know?
If you make it super hard(or realistic) the game becomes unaccessible for newbies. Deserted servers are great fun...

Now TD can change whatever they want, in fact it's very cool they gave the die hard bombers what they wanted, however TD sets standards for the whole community - that is the problem, respectively the reason why such stuff should be optional.

Just look at the servers, where are most ppl flying, what do they fly?
Fighters or bombers?
Bingo.
Now you know what the majority wants when playing IL2.
I'm pretty sure the new feature didn't help at all to change the Bombers-Fighters proportion.
More fighters, less bombers - is that what the ppl applauding to the new fusing wanted?
Their live gets even harder now - it's actually too funny robtek complained about not being able to bomb Portsmouth due to the overwhelming fighter mass.
I wrote long post to you but changed my mind and deleted it, I see no point already said what I have:).

Instead I'll ask you one thing.

Since you took some time to reply me twice have you at least downloaded my track and replayed it so we can discuss that?

[swiss]

Since you took some time to reply me twice have you at least downloaded my track and replayed it so we can discuss that?

No, I didn't, as can skipbomb with the 4.10 version.*
Took me about 2hrs to re-learn.
But that's not the point - it's not about whether you can adapt or not, the question is why you even have to force ppl to adapt.


*
I suck with torps, but then again I never spent much time learning.
Dive bombing is something I hated before, now it's necessary, and you can't even be sure if you hit something at all.
I wonder how often even a experienced stuka pilot goes home with more than 3 tanks(500/2x50)...
But hey, they gave us the Henschel with neat guns, which love TD for, it became my new weapon of choice if go for AG.

[F19_Klunk]

Dive bombing is something I hated before, now it's necessary, and you can't even be sure if you hit something at all.

If you hated dive bombing, take hints and tips from the real USN:

http://f19vs.se/page.php?50

Three parts. This section of our site also present other interesting instructional movies

When you get to learn how things were done IRL, they seem to be more fun to perform.. imo anyway :)

[JHartikka]

Almost Realistic But Not Quite..!

Here are the three main cases related to improving IL sim to get bombers truthful:

1. Bomb SALVO settings.
2. Fuse settings.
3. Missing bomb damage after pilot hit.

Nr 1 means that this otherways truthful sim has a queer property of dropping bombs as pairs. I guess that we are rather unanimous that back in those days bomb effect was with all efforts maximized. It would have been unprecedentedly foolish to waste bomb effect by dropping bombs as pairs into the same spot! Luckily, there already is a fix available (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=209454&posted=1#post209454) for this IL sim 'idiot pairs of bombs' dilemma so it should not be very difficult to set correct with some future patch, I hope! :)

Nr 2 means of course that for every mission bombs were funished with a fuse best suited for that particular mission. Again, bombs were never carried to be wasted in those days! It was crew's choice to say the last word about fuse that would be best for the mission. Pilot select should be the case with this sim, too, if we wish to further keep the sim historically accurate instead of becoming just another fancy game?

Nr 3 is the IL sim curious feature that bombs released before but exploding after flak or enemy interceptor has hit the bomber pilot do not cause any damage. In reality, bombs of course were quite as dangerous even after the aircraft that dropped them was hit - I guess we all agree about this?




...take hints and tips from the real USN: http://f19vs.se/page.php?50
...

Thank you for the link to an riginal educational film - it really tells steep dive bombing physics very clearly in an easy to grasp illustrative way. I looked at the carefully made film with pleasure!



Best regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Finland

I added original wartime photos to messages http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=210220&posted=1#post210220 and http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=213782#post213782 and http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=216588#post216588

[JG52Uther]

It should not be a setting in the difficulty settings at all.It should be an option ingame like the bomb delay setting.
THAT would be realistic.

[Bussard_1]

"How do you know how it was in RL? Where you there? I doubt anyone here on this forum was there in RL and that 98% of the people talking about the bomb arming bit have been as close to the stuff as a picture in a book.

Did you check out the pdf-file on German bombs? Did you read the bit where bombs could be set to a arming time of 0.08sec?
Up to now no documention has been presented that bombing as implied in 4.10 was the the rule, and that for all sides reguardless of country.
And no just because it is harder does not automatically mean it is more "real"."

2% of all people talking about this stuff are in Team Daidilos, and have read the spec and dropped stuff that blows up IRL.

If IRL was easy we would all be strapped to a fighter.

Think you've got the right stuff? Enlist.

Sit down, please.

These TD guys are not just pushing agendas and dragging stuff out of their back passages.

You insult their professionalism if you believe other wise.

This kind off sand pit squabble is bloody tiresome.

Stop stealing my oxygen.

Merde!

[DKoor]

No, I didn't, as can skipbomb with the 4.10 version.*
Took me about 2hrs to re-learn.
But that's not the point - it's not about whether you can adapt or not, the question is why you even have to force ppl to adapt.


*
I suck with torps, but then again I never spent much time learning.
Dive bombing is something I hated before, now it's necessary, and you can't even be sure if you hit something at all.
I wonder how often even a experienced stuka pilot goes home with more than 3 tanks(500/2x50)...
But hey, they gave us the Henschel with neat guns, which love TD for, it became my new weapon of choice if go for AG.
IMO now I think they should simply put it as option since of rather big opposition to the idea.

Why I asked you to watch my track is because I think it is not fairly easy thing to do but just plain easy. And is a step closer to reality all together.
In ww2 they didn't do skip bombing from sea level but from certain small alts;

The bombing aircraft flew at very low altitudes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude) (200–250 ft (61–76 m)) at speeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed) from 200–250 mph (320–400 km/h; 170–220 kn). They would release a "stick" of two to four bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bomb), usually 500 lb (230 kg) or 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs equipped with four- to five-second time delay fuses at a distance of 60–300 ft (18–91 m) from the side of the target ship. The bombs would "skip" over the surface of the water in a manner similar to stone skipping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_skipping) and either bounce into the side of the ship and detonate, submerge and explode under the ship, or bounce over the target and explode as an air burst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_burst). All outcomes were found to be effective. Unlike "Upkeep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb#Upkeep)" or "Highball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb#Highball)", this technique used standard types.

We still can do our skip bombing lower than their lowest alt in RL, but anyhow the fact that they didn't do skip bombing at sea level as often witnessed in pre 4.10 versus real life scenario settled my dilemma about the issue.

Why would I want to game a game?
That doesn't make a sense to me and a lot of other folks... however I see that is a prob with some other folks who want luxury that is why I said that I'm in for making it option on/off.

Argument easy vs hard bombing and both being unrealistic doesn't hold water for me as I feel this brought us closer to the real thing, especially the case with torps.

God forbid they ever code the waves and ship evasion paths, apart from few unlucky seagull strikes most people wont hit anything at sea.:)

[robtek]

.......Did you check out the pdf-file on German bombs? Did you read the bit where bombs could be set to a arming time of 0.08sec?.....

That is definitively wrong!!!
The delay could be set to 0.08 s. (MV).
The armingt time still was between 0.9 and 1.5 s.

[swiss]

Dkoor:

IT IS NOT about SKIPBOMBING, skipbombig is easy - try tanks.

od forbid they ever code the waves and ship evasion paths, apart from few unlucky seagull strikes most people wont hit anything at sea.

If that is a completely new game - no prob.

[JtD]

That is definitively wrong!!!
The delay could be set to 0.08 s. (MV).
The armingt time still was between 0.9 and 1.5 s.

Exactly - and that would be the minimum! This setting also came with a fixed 14 seconds of bomb delay.

[JtD]

Dkoor:

IT IS NOT about SKIPBOMBING, skipbombig is easy - try tanks.

Killing tanks was considered to be very hard - also with bombs. This is why weapons like the Ju 87G, Hurricane IID, the NS 37mm cannon or cluster bombs were introduced.

[swiss]

This setting also came with a fixed 14 seconds of bomb delay.

So? The bomb would penetrate the hull, doesn't even matter if it was 140sec.

Would suck only if you're attacking a moving land convoy.

[JtD]

So? The bomb would penetrate the hull, doesn't even matter if it was 140sec.IT IS NOT about SKIPBOMBING
Leaves me to wonder which bomb and which hull, and also to wonder "so?" what. Never heard a fact before? Make of it what you want, that's what the brain is for.

[Romanator21]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!

http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

No. The plane is not over the ship, but well past it. I would say that it is at least 300 feet up. Ships are bigger than you think - a common cargo ship like that is probably about 30 meters tall. To ignore the bomb fusing (dropping from less than 30 meters) he would have gone through the rigging.

IT IS NOT about SKIPBOMBING, skipbombig is easy - try tanks.

Post a track in which you're having trouble bombing tanks. I and maybe others can watch it and explain what you're doing wrong. Again, it was never an easy thing to do.

[DKoor]

this guy sure looks like he ignored the new bomb fusing completely!




http://axisofinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/a20-bismark-sea-japanese.jpg

Yeah hehe... while on western front he's preoccupied with killing Königstigers with his .50s.:mrgreen:

[Fenrir]

No. The plane is not over the ship, but well past it. I would say that it is at least 300 feet up. Ships are bigger than you think - a common cargo ship like that is probably about 30 meters tall. To ignore the bomb fusing (dropping from less than 30 meters) he would have gone through the rigging.


He did go through the rigging, he also hit the mast on his way through. To quote the same picture captioned in 'Flying Buccaneers; The Illustrated History of Kenney's Fifth Air Force' by Steve Birdsall: "During the fierce convoy attack on March 19, 1944, this A-20 struck the mast of it's victim and crashed into the sea. Coming off the target, Jock Henebry spotted a dye marker and yellow life jacket and the pilot was picked up by a Catalina the next morning after 17 hours in the water."

[Romanator21]

Well, what happened to his bombs then?

[swiss]

Leaves me to wonder which bomb and which hull, and also to wonder "so?" what. Never heard a fact before? Make of it what you want, that's what the brain is for.

So -> so what. The delay has no influence on your success.
The bomb(I guess SC50's will not work) will penetrate all hulls of civilian ships.

Early Liberty ships suffered hull and deck cracks, and a few were lost to such structural defects. During WWII, there were nearly 1,500 instances of significant brittle fractures. Twelve ships, including three of the 2,710 Liberties built, broke in half without warning, including the SS John P. Gaines
For a libertyship the impact alone would be enough to sink it, lol.
Or:
This made them bounce and penetrate their target's hull near the waterline.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/skip_bombing.aspx

If timed right the bomb would skip and penetrate the hull before exploding
http://books.google.ch/books?id=Z6YsNyLd_Q4C p.102, search for "hull"


Whether they could penetrate the side of a cruiser or not, I don't know.

[swiss]

Found some real life data:

Discussing the situation with Major Bill Benn, Kenney suggested the idea of 'skip bombing': dropping a bomb such that it literally skipped off the water like a stone, hitting its target from the side. To do this, the bombs, set with delayed fuzes so the plane would have time to clear the detonation, must be dropped at an extremely (dangerously!) low altitude and at the right speed and from the right distance. The bomber for the job must have enough fire power in the nose to defend itself from enemy flak at such low heights. The man for the job of making it work was Major Bill Benn, so Kenney fired him as his assistant and assigned him to command the 63rd Squadron and undertake the perfection of 'skip bombing'.

Major Benn then gathered together some of the best pilots in the 43rd --1st Lt. James T. Murphy, Capt. Ken McCullar, Lt. Folmer "The Swede" Sogaard, Capt. Ed Scott, Lt. Glenn Lewis-- who set about the task. Many hours of practice taught them that approaching the ship from 2,000 ft., then dropping down to an altitude of 200 to 250 ft. (maintaining the air speed of 200 to 250 m.p.h.) and releasing the bomb --equipped with a 4 to 5 second delay fuze-- 60 to 100 ft. away from the target was the way to do it.2 Thanks to the efforts of these men, the percentage of targets hit increased from less than 1% to 72%

http://www.kensmen.com/skipbombing.html

I just posted this because of the 72%, quite interesting.
Again: I am not complaining about the status quo when it comes to skipbombing in 4.10

[JtD]

So you are talking about skip bombing. This would mean a minimum arming time of about 1.6 seconds for the German bomb fuse Robtek and I are speaking about, as 0.8 was only allowed for dive bombing.

Please note that the US did not use German bomb fuses in their skip bombing attacks.

[swiss]

So you are talking about skip bombing. This would mean a minimum arming time of about 1.6 seconds for the German bomb fuse Robtek and I are speaking about, as 0.8 was only allowed for dive bombing.

Please note that the US did not use German bomb fuses in their skip bombing attacks.

You asked about hull penetration, I offered the answer. The did penetrate.

Did I complain about fusing time when skipbombing? No.
You confuse me with someone else.
The 25m cap idiotic though.

Anyway:
Here are some fusing and delay times, you get everything from .7sec upwards.
Ignore the red oval.
http://img218.imageshack.us/i/40079461.jpg
Some offer a good chance to blow up the dropping plane too.

[Wolf_Rider]

perhaps a timely reminder...

Skip bombing was a low-level bombing technique refined for use against Imperial Japanese Navy warships and transports by Major William Benn of the 63rd Squadron, 43rd Bomb Group (Heavy), 5th Air Force, United States Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific Area Theater during World War II. General George Kenney has been credited with developing skip bombing.[1][2]

The first time skip bombing was used was at the base of Rabaul on New Britain. The United States 5th Army Air Force used B-25 bombers to attack and destroy Japanese ships. It proved to be very effective and received growing popularity. The only drawback was that it took a lot of skill to perfect. Sometimes the bombs would detonate too soon, or in some cases, sink.[3]

The bombing aircraft flew at very low altitudes (200–250 ft (61–76 m)) at speeds from 200–250 mph (320–400 km/h; 170–220 kn). They would release a "stick" of two to four bombs, usually 500 lb (230 kg) or 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs equipped with four- to five-second time delay fuses at a distance of 60–300 ft (18–91 m) from the side of the target ship. The bombs would "skip" over the surface of the water in a manner similar to stone skipping and either bounce into the side of the ship and detonate, submerge and explode under the ship, or bounce over the target and explode as an air burst. All outcomes were found to be effective. Unlike "Upkeep" or "Highball", this technique used standard types.

[F19_Klunk]

interesting read about skip bombing in the pacific
http://www.kensmen.com/combatlessons.html

there is even a book (biographical)on skip bombing with a B17 in the Pacific available on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0275945405/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-2410867-6643233#reader-link

However, according to different sources, skipbombing was not only performed by the Americans in the Pacific, but also by British Coastal Command (learnt from the Americans) but also by Italians in Stukas?

Ju 87 in Italy
One of the weaknesses of the Italian Regia Aeronautica was its lack of dive bombers. The Italian attempts to develop such an aircraft had ended in a complete and ridiculous failure: The SM85 was abandoned after the type flew a single mission.
Yet it was clear that dive bombers were a very effective weapon against British ships in the Mediterranean. As was proven by the Germans when sent Stukageschwader I and II to the help the Italians. The Stukas badly damaged the carrier Illustrious, sank the cruiser Southampton, damaged several other ships, and nearly cut off the supply line to the besieged Tobruk.

So by 1941 the Italians received 46 B-1s, 50 B-2s, 59 R-2s. In 1943 they received an additional 46 aircraft, D-2s and D-3s. The Italians gave the aircraft the nickname Picchiatelli, which means "Striker". Although the Italians were trained initially to use the same tactics as the Germans, who did dive vertically on their targets in small groups, they soon developed their own methods. Rather oddly, the Italians also used the Ju 87 for the method which later became known as skip bombing -- horizontal attacks at very low level, dropping their bombs in such way that they would bounce of the water and hit the attacked ship on the waterline. The advantage of this method of attacking was that the target was hit on the waterline, and a dive directly into the defensive fire was avoided.

The last sentence seems a bit weird to me, as in the Pacific anyway it seems the survival rate was higher(?) with dive bombers dinving from above than in torpattack (coming in at sea level)?

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

The bombing aircraft flew at very low altitudes (200–250 ft (61–76 m)) at speeds from 200–250 mph (320–400 km/h; 170–220 kn). They would release a "stick" of two to four bombs, usually 500 lb (230 kg) or 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs equipped with four- to five-second time delay fuses at a distance of 60–300 ft (18–91 m) from the side of the target ship.

Hm... without the ability to calculate it correctly now... I think, this combination would make the bomb falling far over the the ship and miss it:

Height: 61m
Speed: 320km/h
Point of release distance from ship: 18m

Maybe in a dive, but not in level flight. Some information seems missing here to explain that.
Note, that I used the minimums height and speed of your numbers.

[F19_Klunk]

Caspar..if u read Kensmen's "combatlessons" there seem to be different techniques.
http://www.kensmen.com/combatlessons.html

[Romanator21]

Since a lot of us seem to be having great difficulty learning how to deal with the new bomb fusing, I've prepared these tracks which may help a bit by providing a "picture" that one should be seeing upon bomb release.

It's not always very easy, but then again, it wasn't easy to plant bombs in the pickle barrel IRL either. Still, I did these on the fly, so with a little practice anyone can do much better than what is shown here.

Hs-129 with 6x SC-50s (first pair destroy a plane, second and third go too far)
http://www.mediafire.com/?z67a2w2z5j1o91h

IAR-80 with SC-250 (some vehicles and armored car destroyed).
http://www.mediafire.com/?8092ef9536kw6y5

Il-2 with 6x FAB-100s (first and second pairs destroy planes, last pair gets an AA gun)
http://www.mediafire.com/?kepjoy81c7vki5c

Il-2 with AO-10s (several train cars are destroyed. Unfortunately, I accidentally kicked the rudder, preventing me from taking out the entire column).
http://www.mediafire.com/?ln5bka1b08gc412

Il-2 with 4x FAB-100s (dropped in salvo, a common practice. One pair is wide, second pair is on the money, killing a tank)
http://www.mediafire.com/?z1aos6spfs15e4s

Il-2 with PTAB-2.5s (2 tanks killed. If I dropped a split second sooner, I could have taken out the entire row).
http://www.mediafire.com/?tmxkoz9m93ex5ba

I can make more, by request :)

[Wolf_Rider]

Hm... without the ability to calculate it correctly now... I think, this combination would make the bomb falling far over the the ship and miss it:

Height: 61m
Speed: 320km/h
Point of release distance from ship: 18m

Maybe in a dive, but not in level flight. Some information seems missing here to explain that.
Note, that I used the minimums height and speed of your numbers.



they are the similar number range you'll find anywhere, Casper.. and if you go back abit, you'll read that some sank, some hit the waterline and some did go over the ship.

water surface conditions, etc

[F19_Klunk]

About pics..

By the looks of it, skip bombing techniques were mostly used by B25 crew and B17. I have a cr*pload of different publications about WWII birds... I have yet to find any pic of a B17 skipbombing..but found quite a few B25's.

Take note that the "2nd plane" is a shadow... taken in Bismarck sea
http://www.f19vs.se/temp/b25skip01_bismarck.jpg

Take note of altitude..bay of Hong Kong
http://www.f19vs.se/temp/b25skip02_hongkong.jpg

Take not of altitude.. I would say considering the B25 has a wingspan of 20 m, this one is I would say 50-60m
Note thouh the text.. just because a B25 is low doesn't mean he is skipbombing. Front guns were quite heavy and could do a lot of damage.. and when u are strafing u need to go low
http://www.f19vs.se/temp/b25skip03_japdestroyer.jpg

[JtD]

You asked about hull penetration, I offered the answer. The did penetrate.

No, I asked about what hulls you're talking about if it is not ships, but moot point anyway. FYI, 500lb US bombs could penetrate about 40mm of mild steel max, that means they could basically penetrate all unarmoured ship hulls, but could easily go in on one side and out on the other against lighter targets, such as destroyers or merchant shipping.

The 25m cap idiotic though.

It's 2 seconds, not 25meters.

Here are some fusing and delay times, you get everything from .7sec upwards.
Ignore the red oval.
http://img218.imageshack.us/i/40079461.jpg

ElAZ 28 was not permitted for low level attacks. ElAZ 55 is back to the 1.6 seconds and 14 s delay for low level horizontal attacks, just like ElAZ 25B.

[JtD]

Thanks Klunk for the nice information. That was something I hadn't read or seen before.

Regarding the relative dangers of dive and skip bombing, I would say that this depends on the type of target. At any rate, neither would be comparable to torpedo bombers, which head to maintain a steady course at a low speed in perfect AAA altitude for an extended time.

[swiss]

It's 2 seconds, not 25meters.


It's 2 sec and 25m.

4.10 pdf:
Bomb Fusing
Real life bombs have generally an electrical or mechanical time fuse to avoid premature
explosion in case of mishap (e.g. a bomb detaching from the aircraft while still on the runway,
25 / 35
or a bomb hitting the bomb rack due to turbulence). This has been implemented in IL-2, so
that bombs now have a 2 seconds time fusing. If the bomb hits the target before that time,
the fuse does not activate and the bomb does not explode. This means that in level flight a
bomb must be dropped from a minimum altitude of about 25 meters to explode. If the bomb is
dropped in a dive the altitude must be proportionally greater. This also applies to skip
bombing: the bomb must be dropped from at least 25m and must not hit the ship before 2
seconds.


edit:
could easily go in on one side and out on the other

Got any sources that this ever happened?

[JtD]

It's 2 sec and 25m.

No, it's not. Try it in game instead of quoting a text that can easily be interpreted either way. 2 seconds free falling bombs mean 19.62 m altitude from level flight. That's what the 25 m come from, hence the "....this means...." part.

Fly at 5m, pull up 3 seconds prior to the target an release the bombs. You'll see. I've this way skip bombed from 10m. It's just very hard to do, so I rather fly at 22 m and do it from level flight.

[swiss]

No, it's not. Try it in game...

I did.
http://rapidshare.com/#!download|15l35|441742944|quick0039.ntrk|504




Fly at 5m, pull up 3 seconds prior to the target an release the bombs. You'll see. I've this way skip bombed from 10m. It's just very hard to do, so I rather fly at 22 m and do it from level flight.


Got a ntrk?

[JtD]

Got any sources that this ever happened?

Bombs going through ships - there's plenty.

Skipped bombs going through smaller vessels - I've once read a pilot account about that. The claim is technically sound. I've never bothered to look into damage reports for each of the thousands of smaller vessels that got damaged in WW2 to see how often it actually happened.

---
For what it's worth, releasing the bombs 60 feet before the ship means that the aiming point would be 60 feet before the ship. As Caspar has correctly pointed out, it is impossible to hit an object on the ground if you release the bomb from level flight at 250 feet just 60 feet away. You'd have to fly at about 10 knots to make that work.

[JtD]

Got a ntrk?

Made one for you. (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/quick0043.ntrk)

[swiss]

Bombs going through ships - there's plenty.


Ok, why did you doubt it before?
Leaves me to wonder which bomb and which hull,

Because of the delay?
If it goes right through it, a 4-5 sec delay wont help you either.

[swiss]

Made one for you. (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/quick0043.ntrk)

Thx, toss bombing mixed with skipbombing.
Sounds realistic."Use the force, Luke" ;)
And the bombs still get disarmed if they touch the water too early.

But like i said before, I dont care.
Another 70days and IL2 will be deleted from my HDD.

[JtD]

Ok, why did you doubt it before?

Like I said, you said this was not about skip bombing and the next statement is that the bomb penetrates the hull. Only that left me to wonder which hulls.

The point is that 4-5 seconds delay were used for US skip bombing because that would make the bomb go off in the vicinity of the ship even if it sunk before the ship or went right over or through it. With 14 seconds delay the bomb will go off very deep in the water, lessening the damage, and also the ship will have moved a considerable distance, even an average steamer could have covered a complete ship length in that time.

At any rate, my comment on the 14 seconds delay were not directed at the feasibility of skip bombing as such, rather the general problems associated with a long fuse - ground penetration, skipping, rolling, rebounding, moving targets moving away - all of which making an accurate and devastating attack difficult.

Regarding my track, it wasn't meant to show the most elegant way of skip bombing, only to show that altitude does not matter. I released these bombs at about 10m, clearly below the 25 you thought would also be a limit.

Not that it matters much in practice. The bomb lobbing is pretty difficult to do and offers no benefits over a level attack 20 m higher.

[Wolf_Rider]

Bombs going through ships - there's plenty.

it is impossible to hit an object on the ground if you release the bomb from level flight at 250 feet just 60 feet away. You'd have to fly at about 10 knots to make that work.



I think they're working with water, not ground ?
has bomb weight been taken into account?


of interest...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVLV67xILI4

[_RAAF_Firestorm]

The _RAAF_Squadron has spent the last three Thursday night Training sessions dedicated to exploring the new realism features in 4.10 including bomb fusing, rocket dispersion, wind effects on flight and ordnance, radio navigation etc. We generally feel that the work done to the Sim is of very high standard and has been a marked step forward in improving the already high level of immersion this Sim offers. Our hats off and gracious thanks to everyone involved.

A big part of the training regime was workshoping new methods of ordnance delivery to account for the fusing time of two seconds and last night's training focused on skip bombing. Following some experimentation and online trials, we believe we've had a successful resolution of new skip bombing methods and we generally consider the fusing time feature to be an improvement in immersion for a number of reasons:

1. Our resolved methods seem to match those anecdotally documented.
2. The difficulty level of skip bombing now resembles what we would expect from such a task.
3. The 2sec fuse terminating once the bomb hits water rather than hull is not an issue for us given item 1 above, resolved within Sim limitations.
4. Due to the increased difficulty, dive bombing and torpedos perhaps now offer higher success rates, in 4.09 this was not the case.

We feel that item 3 above is not ideally realistic, but an improvement nonetheless and certainly not a deal breaker. The concerns shown by all here should of course not be discounted and TD's decision to add this as a realism option in the next patch is commendable.

Having said that, we have concluded that even as it stands, successful skip bombing, just like dive bombing, level bombing, take off and landing, is simply a matter of practice. For us, learning something new has been overwhelmingly rewarding and we look forward to more of the same.

[F19_Klunk]

g00d feedback and well put.

[Wolf_Rider]

well put, Firey

[JHartikka]

Pilots Wished Bomb SALVO Fix (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=209454&posted=1#post209454)- Got a Forced Delay 410m Fuse Instead! :(

Is strategic bombing now the only allowed bombing style with the introduction of the 4.10m new level bombing fuse? Yes, it seems that the low bombing tactical arts are now practically denied..! For strategic 'terror bombings' that fuse is ok but I keep wondering what the veteran ground battle pilots during the war would have said if they had been ordered to use the 4.10m fuse..? I guess they would not have been polite with their response! ;D

The IL2 sim used to have very finely made simulation for low bombing modes prior to 410m! The bomb actually bounced or slided in these simulations on the ground like the wartime expert low bombing 'jabo' pilots performed it, for instance! :)

As a virtual bomber pilot familiar with real history of delay low bombing styles like jabo / slide / bounce bombing it is very regrettable that the 410m now denies us these most exciting and skill demanding bombing modes.


Crew Switchable Safety Delay

A story I recalled from Finnish wartime recollections about German bombs electric fuse. The big German bombs were known to have an electric fuse with safety delay option. It was rather simple yet versatile.

It could be used in automatic 'safety delay mode' (like the forced 410m fuse) or manually in no safety delay mode (quite unlike the forced 410m fuse). It even allowed arming and disarming bomb and switching safety delay on or off during flight.

I have understood that these electric fuses were used with bombers having crew more than on person so the one responsible for bomb release could control bomb arming and disarming. The cases I have collected from my country about small bombs like fighter bombs indicate that these had no safety delay.


Electric Fuse Circuit Description

There were two capacitors in the German electric bomb fuse circuit. The first capacitor was the one charged from aircraft. It was connected to second actual fuse capacitor through a delay resistor between them.

When capacitor nr. 1 got a charge from a connector attached to the bomb, it would start charge the nr. 2 capacitor through the resistor which slowed the charging and thus caused an arming delay or safety delay. I guess the 410m 2 s safety fuse is related to those bombs having this electric fuse arming mode?

Knowing the capacitor 1 - resistor - capacitor 2 - electric fuse circuit we can now understand the operating modes of this German electric bomb fuse:


Electric Fuse Operating Modes

1. Automatic Safety Delay: When used as automatic, an electric connector attached through a swiveled arm to the bomb would give the capacitor nr. 1 electric charge shot just before the connector attached to a swiveled arm would be ripped off from the falling bomb. Now the bomb would be armed in free fall after the actual fusecapacitor nr. 2 would be charged through the resistor causing the automatic arming safety delay.

2. Manual arm and disarm from onboard: If the bomber staff person responsible for bombing gives the bomb a charge shot prior to releasing a bomb, it will arm itself in the alleged time and when released later, it will drop with no safety delay. He could also decide to disarm the bomb by shortcircuiting the bomb arming circuit. When shortcircuited, the arming capacitor nr 2 would bleed empty from charge through the delay resistor in about the time of the safety delay and the bomb would be disarmed again.

We see that this kind of electric bomb fuse circuit would allow the bomber crew to arm and disarm any bomb connected to onboard arming circuit and release the bomb either disarmed or armed. Further, this bomb arming circuit gave the crew an option to decide whether to use safety delay or not..! Alas, we virtual bomber pilots were not allowed to decide setting safety delay on or off with the rather incorrect 410m fuse... :(


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Finland

[Wutz]

Pilots Wished Bomb SALVO Fix (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=209454&posted=1#post209454)- Got a Forced Delay 410m Fuse Instead! :(

Is strategic bombing now the only allowed bombing style with the introduction of the 4.10m new level bombing fuse? Yes, it seems that the low bombing tactical arts are now practically denied..! For strategic 'terror bombings' that fuse is ok but I keep wondering what the veteran ground battle pilots during the war would have said if they had been ordered to use the 4.10m fuse..? I guess they would not have been polite with their response! ;D

The IL2 sim used to have very finely made simulation for low bombing modes prior to 410m! The bomb actually bounced or slided in these simulations on the ground like the wartime expert low bombing 'jabo' pilots performed it, for instance! :)

As a virtual bomber pilot familiar with real history of delay low bombing styles like jabo / slide / bounce bombing it is very regrettable that the 410m now denies us these most exciting and skill demanding bombing modes.


Crew Switchable Safety Delay

A story I recalled from Finnish wartime recollections about German bombs electric fuse. The big German bombs were known to have an electric fuse with safety delay option. It was rather simple yet versatile.

It could be used in automatic 'safety delay mode' (like the forced 410m fuse) or manually in no safety delay mode (quite unlike the forced 410m fuse). It even allowed arming and disarming bomb and switching safety delay on or off during flight.

I have understood that these electric fuses were used with bombers having crew more than on person so the one responsible for bomb release could control bomb arming and disarming. The cases I have collected from my country about small bombs like fighter bombs indicate that these had no safety delay.


Electric Fuse Circuit Description

There were two capacitors in the German electric bomb fuse circuit. The first capacitor was the one charged from aircraft. It was connected to second actual fuse capacitor through a delay resistor between them.

When capacitor nr. 1 got a charge from a connector attached to the bomb, it would start charge the nr. 2 capacitor through the resistor which slowed the charging and thus caused an arming delay or safety delay. I guess the 410m 2 s safety fuse is related to those bombs having this electric fuse arming mode?

Knowing the capacitor 1 - resistor - capacitor 2 - electric fuse circuit we can now understand the operating modes of this German electric bomb fuse:


Electric Fuse Operating Modes

1. Automatic Safety Delay: When used as automatic, an electric connector attached through a swiveled arm to the bomb would give the capacitor nr. 1 electric charge shot just before the connector attached to a swiveled arm would be ripped off from the falling bomb. Now the bomb would be armed in free fall after the actual fusecapacitor nr. 2 would be charged through the resistor causing the automatic arming safety delay.

2. Manual arm and disarm from onboard: If the bomber staff person responsible for bombing gives the bomb a charge shot prior to releasing a bomb, it will arm itself in the alleged time and when released later, it will drop with no safety delay. He could also decide to disarm the bomb by shortcircuiting the bomb arming circuit. When shortcircuited, the arming capacitor nr 2 would bleed empty from charge through the delay resistor in about the time of the safety delay and the bomb would be disarmed again.

We see that this kind of electric bomb fuse circuit would allow the bomber crew to arm and disarm any bomb connected to onboard arming circuit and release the bomb either disarmed or armed. Further, this bomb arming circuit gave the crew an option to decide whether to use safety delay or not..! Alas, we virtual bomber pilots were not allowed to decide setting safety delay on or off with the rather incorrect 410m fuse... :(


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Finland

True, because some feel everyone must fly bombers as they wish, or not at all, and there are enough "Fan boys" that welcome that, as harder must be more real....maybe they should implement that shots fired from closer than a 1000m automatically have no effect, that will certainly be a lot harder so by the fan boys logic that must be more realistic.
I would forget the topic as CoD is coming and hopefully geeks will not be allowed to force their silly flying techniques onto others.

[JtD]

It's not correct that German fuses allowed modes that came completely without arming. At least the 10 most common fuses did not, and I've never heard anything that would indicate the Germans were that stupid.

It is true that there was an option to have the fuse set off the bomb without any delay. This is exactly what you can set up in the arming screen.

I would also like to point out that the typical low level attacks as done in WW2 are still possible. It is true, however, that some special cases cannot be recreated at the moment.
---
Wutz, you're embarrassing.

[Sokol1]

The _RAAF_Squadron has spent the last..

Well said!

Sokol1

[JHartikka]

True, because some feel everyone must fly bombers as they wish, or not at all, and there are enough "Fan boys" that welcome that, as harder must be more real...

Indeed Wutz, part of the IL2 community shows signs to switching from the rather truthful flight sim to a common fancy computer game with imaginary rules they can change by their own liking.

However, historical facts still remain facts. Bombers were armed with fuses and bombs that suited best for each mission. Throughout the war, means of hitting enemy were constantly improved to be easier rather than more difficult - that is quite selfevident, isn't it..? ;)

Ignoring history is of course allowed, but doing so may make people behind such unrealistic mods appear rather restricted or even ignorant.


A JU-88 Veteran About Bomb Fuses

In a recent history gathering (http://yle.fi/alueet/pohjois-karjala/2011/01/muistojen_junkers-moottori_esittaytyy_joensuulaisille_2322833.html?o rigin=rss) I met Mr. Kusti Lehmusvuori. In spite of being almost 90 he was in very brisk shape with lucid mind and memories. He served as a bomber radio operator and gunner for some 55 war flights in Finnish Blenheim and JU-88 crews.

He described the electrical fuse circuit of German JU-88 bombs quite as I had earlier heard about it and written to the message above (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=218518#post218518). He also added that the bomb fuse capacitors were charged from onboard batteries that resembled the anode batteries of the radios of those days. Bombs were of course launched one by one and not as pairs like with IL2 sim.

We also discussed about airplane radio operator work of those days with the rather unreliable Marconi radios of Blenheims and the advanced FUG 10 radio gear of JU-88 that he descrobed as being 'from another planet' as compared to earlier radios. When asked, he even remembered accurately the 'Gibson Girl' emergency transmitter placement onboard..! However, I guess further writing about early aircraft radio operation and navigation practises might be a bit off topic in this thread so I save that info for later discussions.


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

History Addict
Finland

Original wartime photos on messages:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=210220&posted=1#post210220 and
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=213782#post213782 and
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=216588#post216588

Bomber veteran Kusti Lehmusvuori in a newspaper article with photos of the restored motor of the ill fated JU-88 nr JK-254:
http://yle.fi/alueet/pohjois-karjala/2011/01/muistojen_junkers-moottori_esittaytyy_joensuulaisille_2322833.html?o rigin=rss

[jtkfox1970]

why don't you use the 4.09 patch. you don't have to use the 4.10 patch if you don't like it.

[Wutz]

why don't you use the 4.09 patch. you don't have to use the 4.10 patch if you don't like it.
That is what plenty are already doing. You just need to look at the WoP servers, in the beginning the Spits vs 109s 4.10 was full now there are seldom more than four players. Many have dumped 4.10 and gone back to 4.09.
But I think a fix from UP will be soon out for 4.10.;)

[Oktoberfest]

Yep... Went back to 4.09 modded because of that "feature". Thx to those guys that want all players to play as they wish.

And viva Cliff of Dover, so we can get rid of them.

[robtek]

Yep, i also think we wont find the people which went back to 4.09 on CoD "full real" servers :-P , too difficult :-D.

[Korn]

Why, in CoD the bombs will magically stop arming when they touch water?

[JHartikka]

why don't you use the 4.09 patch. you don't have to use the 4.10 patch if you don't like it.

... Many have dumped 4.10 and gone back to 4.09...

Yep... Went back to 4.09 modded because of that "feature". Thx to those guys that want all players to play as they wish...


Hi, thank you for encouraging! That is what intend to I do with our home server All_Planes - keep it to 409. And of course added it with the bomb salvo fix patch for effective bomber training! :)

However, how would the developers of new patches improve them unless someone keeps reporting about bugs and flaws..? That is why I keep telling about the three main bomber flaws: Salvo, fuse and pilot hit.

Alas, developer team seem not yet have noticed any of these mails. :( The 4.101 thread only tells about the 'safety fuse' that it will be removed from cassette bomblets... Also no control to be expected for the pilot about the fuse but maybe only for host difficulty settings. :( Also nothing mentioned about the bomb salvo fix for 4.101 so I guess they have not noticed it either... Maybe it will not come for the new Cliffs of Dover, either. :(

Well, one more way to remind about 410 patch bomber bugs - I made a new squad for one of HL campaigns : BAN410! squad..! ;)


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

[robtek]

Why, in CoD the bombs will magically stop arming when they touch water?

That might not be the case, but i shure hope that skip bombing will not be the absurd easy cakewalk like it is in 4.09!
Maybe we will have real waves which might deflect skipping bombs, and if it is anything like in real there will be no arming time ONLY TOGETHER with 14 sec. delay for german bombs.
No skip bombing with that setting!!!
Anything else -> arming time between 0,9 and 1,6 seconds for the usual fuses!!

[JtD]

Why, in CoD the bombs will magically stop arming when they touch water?

German bombs should. British bomb should have a high failure rate, and that should be increased when touching water.

[Wutz]

Hi, thank you for encouraging! That is what intend to I do with our home server All_Planes - keep it to 409. And of course added it with the bomb salvo fix patch for effective bomber training! :)

However, how would the developers of new patches improve them unless someone keeps reporting about bugs and flaws..? That is why I keep telling about the three main bomber flaws: Salvo, fuse and pilot hit.

Alas, developer team seem not yet have noticed any of these mails. :( The 4.101 thread only tells about the 'safety fuse' that it will be removed from cassette bomblets... Also no control to be expected for the pilot about the fuse but maybe only for host difficulty settings. :( Also nothing mentioned about the bomb salvo fix for 4.101 so I guess they have not noticed it either... Maybe it will not come for the new Cliffs of Dover, either. :(

Well, one more way to remind about 410 patch bomber bugs - I made a new squad for one of HL campaigns : BAN410! squad..! ;)


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Don´t worry about it in around two months time those "Great" patches will be obsolete, and the arm chair experts can disappear again in their cellars! :mrgreen:

[JtD]

That would suck. Only idiots left posting, that would really hurt, oh my.