Which Joystick to buy

[Coen020]

Hi guys,

My first thread here so be kind please.

I know there are already tons of threads about this subject, yet it didnt apply to joysticks where i can lay my hands on. (i live in The Netherlands).

As far as i've searched these are the joysticks that i can buy.

T-Flight Hotas X Joystick & Gas Throttle from Thrustmaster

http://www.all4games.nl/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/68173.jpg

++ It has a throttle which can be detached from the stick
++ It also works on ps3 which is a big pro since i own one
- It's ugly as hell, just look at the banana shaped throttle
- It looks like it doesn't have the option to twist the stick to use the rudder

Cyborg X Joystick from Saitek

http://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_larges/075674/1/saitek-cyborg-x-joystick.jpg

+ Dual throttle, which is awesome, of course
+ It looks funny, in a good way
-/+ throttle integrated in stick, then again it's still has a throttle
- also no option to twist the stick for rudder control

T-16000m Joystick from Thrustmaster

http://www.all4games.nl/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/72324.jpg

+ apperently it's far more accurate then everything else on the market (x256)
+ can twist the stick for rudder
- lame throttle button

The first one appeals most to me, what do you guys think?

they are all about 50 Euro which is about 66 USD, i'm not a hardcore simulator player so this is about the right price for me. of course if anyone knows a stick that is much better for just a little more money please let me know. I just need a stick for SOW, right now i play Il-2 with a lame Xbox360 controller which just doesn't really feels right for flying.

greetings,

Coen

[335th_GRSwaty]

~S~

First of all T-Flight Hotas X gives you the option to use rudders on the stick or twist the handle (You can select the option using the small switch in front of the stick).

I hadn't use the saitek but I own and tested T16000M (Check here http://www.hotas.gr/content/view/77/42/lang,en/) but I think it's not PS3 compatible.

[Furio]

The first one (Thrustmaster) actually has two options for rudder. It has conventional twist axis, but you have the option to use the big rocker switch visible on the throttle instead. If you look closely in front of the stick, you can see the rudder selection button. It also has just one trigger, seven buttons (four on throttle, three on stick) and one eight-way hat switch. That’s all. It’s decent quality for an entry level, in my opinion.
Are you sure that the Cyborg has no twist for rudder?

[moilami]

Hello! The joystick is just a tool to get the job done. What you need is twist handle or rudder pedals with a joystick.

I use Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. It works.

http://www.logitech.com/assets/17356/17356.png

[Slechtvalk]

It's a hard choice for sure..

Saitek is nice but my experience is that they don't last long.

I got the T-16000m and yes the throttle is lame, the first 1 got a nice throttle but the stick is not as nice..

I would roll a dice.. ;)

[albx]

I can say that if you want precision don't buy the T-Flight Hotas X, had it for a couple of months than sold and got an X-52 pro... much better...
spend a little bit more and get a good joystick.....

Alberto

[klem]

My vote would be the X52Pro, which I have, but if thats beyond your budget you could consider:-

http://store.gameshark.net/Aviator_for_Playstation_3_PC/3414/173
or
http://store.gameshark.net/Aviator_for_Xbox_360_PC/3413/173

I don't know these sticks but Saitek have always been pretty good.

[SEE]

The Cyborg has a twist action rudder and removable yoke. It could have been an excellent choice but mine suffered manufacturing and design problems:-

a) The Wires at the rudder pot break away.

b) The Cyborg features a number of 'adjustments' but these create slop in the centre position which creates a dead zone.

c) The buttons break and fall off and the top hat must be fully tightened other wise it flexes and moves (another 'adjustment feature' that has backfired IMO)!

All of the above can be cured but the warranty is then void. With more thought and better manufacturing this could have been a good stick.

The T1600 uses Hall sensors and that should be a big plus. I have never owned one but, it seems like those that do, feel it's a good choice.

As for an HOTAS style, I just upgraded to an X52Pro but if I were on a tight budget give me a Saitek X45 any day! These can be found at bargain prices and mine was uttely reliable, durable and well built!

[JG52Krupi]

The Cyborg has a twist action rudder and removable yoke. It could have been an excellent choice but mine suffered manufacturing and design problems:-

a) The Wires at the rudder pot break away.

b) The Cyborg features a number of 'adjustments' but these create slop in the centre position which creates a dead zone.

c) The buttons break and fall off and the top hat must be fully tightened other wise it flexes and moves (another 'adjustment feature' that has backfired IMO)!

All of the above can be cured but the warranty is then void. With more thought and better manufacturing this could have been a good stick.

The T1600 uses Hall sensors and that should be a big plus. I have never owned one but, it seems like those that do, feel it's a good choice.

As for an HOTAS style, I just upgraded to an X52Pro but if I were on a tight budget give me a Saitek X45 any day! These can be found at bargain prices and mine was uttely reliable, durable and well built!


Hmmm... what exactly were you doing to your poor cyborg?

I have had mine for a while now and the only thing that has annoyed me is that they didnt include an option to turn that damn bright blue light off :grin:

[SEE]

Hmmm... what exactly were you doing to your poor cyborg?

I have had mine for a while now and the only thing that has annoyed me is that they didnt include an option to turn that damn bright blue light off :grin:


I used it for about 3 months with what I would describe as moderate useage!
I actually liked the Cyborg and all of the problems I (and others) encountered can be cured quite easily. It has a big brother in the Cyborg FLY 9 (for Xbox consoles only) which is a much higher quality stick with none of the issues that the cheaper Cyborg X has but of course is much more expensive. Pity Saitek/Madcatz didn't offer it as an alternative for the PC or use the same quality of components and materials in the X model.

[JG52Krupi]

I used it for about 3 months with what I would describe as moderate useage!
I actually liked the Cyborg and all of the problems I (and others) encountered can be cured quite easily. It has a big brother in the Cyborg FLY 9 (for Xbox consoles only) which is a much higher quality stick with none of the issues that the cheaper Cyborg X has but of course is much more expensive. Pity Saitek/Madcatz didn't offer it as an alternative for the PC or use the same quality of components and materials in the X model.

At the moment I think your similar to this guy from Father Ted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEcvamtIO8w&feature=related

:lol:

[moilami]

At the moment I think your similar to this guy from Father Ted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEcvamtIO8w&feature=related

:lol:

Lol that "moderate usage" made me to think about the same.

[Coen020]

Ok, thanks A LOT for the comments so far.

I think it's safe to say that the cyborg isn't going to the second round.

@albx

lol, yeah it's 'a little bit more' as in more then twice as much, atleast in the Netherlands.


@Furio

Thanks for pointing out that the T-Flight Hotas X does have rudder options, however thanks to you guys i now know it's not very precise...

geez guys, i am now officially lost :P

PS: @moilami , i dont know exactly what you mean, but i also saw your stick on my online shop and it's even a bit cheaper then the before mentioned sticks, so perhaps this is 'the one'. However NO THROTTLE LEVER :(

[Biggs [CV]]

You can't go wrong with the thrustmaster. I have had one for over 5 years and its very reliable and works really well.

[Coen020]

;205090']You can't go wrong with the thrustmaster. I have had one for over 5 years and its very reliable and works really well.

yeah but which one, the first or the third?

[TYCZYW01]

Hello guys,

is there any good joystick for left-handed pilots? My ST290 is getting old and flying with this stick becomes more and more difficult. It doesn't keep center position for too long.

Thanks for help

[LoBiSoMeM]

Go T16000M. For IL-2 and SoW.

HALL in X and Y axis. Mine have more than one year of REALLY HEAVY use, precise as the first day, and in the first week of use I modify if, cut wires, do a lot of "rude" things.

It's the best for the price in the market, by far. The "other" TM has cheap pots in X and Y axis, not so good construction, etc.

For throttle, you can buy some Saitek throttle quadrant, easily in Netherlands. The T16000M is good just in terms of X and Y axis and stick handle buttons. Forget the rest, even the twist handle for rudder input. I use a really cheap steering wheel pedal set as rudder and it works flawless in IL-2. You can easily find one in Netherlands too!

Good luck!

[LoBiSoMeM]

Hello guys,

is there any good joystick for left-handed pilots? My ST290 is getting old and flying with this stick becomes more and more difficult. It doesn't keep center position for too long.

Thanks for help

T16000M is reversible. I use the "neutral" set, because you can use it with the hand rest right or left or even without the hand rest, really great for central mouting. And you can "reverse" the buttons with a select key in the base of the joy.

[moilami]

PS: @moilami , i dont know exactly what you mean, but i also saw your stick on my online shop and it's even a bit cheaper then the before mentioned sticks, so perhaps this is 'the one'. However NO THROTTLE LEVER :(

It does have a throttle lever, which works very well. Many hate that stick, but Valya has said Extreme 3D Pro does not affect negatively on her flying.


Edit: Oh yeah and I meant with that "it is just a tool" that maybe you should not pay too much attention on the looks of the stick. It is not art ;)

[TYCZYW01]

T16000M is reversible. I use the "neutral" set, because you can use it with the hand rest right or left or even without the hand rest, really great for central mouting. And you can "reverse" the buttons with a select key in the base of the joy.


Thank You for quick answer. I'm wondering about Your experience with this stick. Since PC Flight Force, which I had 15 years ago, I haven't been able to find any joystick, that was so smooth and precise. Even after tweaking in hardware menu, plane doesn't seem to react smootly with my st290, what makes aiming very difficult.

[Biggs [CV]]

yeah but which one, the first or the third?

Sorry, the first one. ;)

[Coen020]

Ok guys, i did some more research.

if im correct it al comes down to the following:

T-Flight Hotas X
+ has a cool throttle
+ ps3 compatible
- unprecise, large deadzone

T-16000m
- lame throttle
+ very precise

is the deadzone issue that big? also i dont play sims like hawx or fsx, i read somewhere that the deadzone differs per sim. I play/gonna play il-2/sow (yeah i'm pretty proud about that :P) and i don't know if the deadzone is really annoying/unplayable or just a small/tiny hickup. basicly this deadzone thing is the only thing stopping me from buying the T-Flight HOTAS X

[Biggs [CV]]

I used the T handleThrustmaster in Il-2, Pacific Fighters and Lock On, I never really noticed a dead zone. Its all a matter of taste and comfort, when I bought mine I was able to get the feel of it at the store, they had one out for display. It was really comfortable, and for me that was a major factor.

[Coen020]

;205125']I used the T handleThrustmaster in Il-2, Pacific Fighters and Lock On, I never really noticed a dead zone. Its all a matter of taste and comfort, when I bought mine I was able to get the feel of it at the store, they had one out for display. It was really comfortable, and for me that was a major factor.

thanks man, i appreciate it, since these are the games i'm gonna play alot with this stick.

i'm just gonna let this thread cook for 2 days or so, see if anyone comes with a counterargument as why i should not buy it, and compare the pro's and con's

edit:

totally missed Klem's post

apperently there's ANOTHER interesting stick:

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/products/SAIAV8R03/4103-1-1.jpeg

This baby can also be used on the ps3 which is a big pro for me.

[Biggs [CV]]

Well the good thing is: If you get a stick and don't like it you can always sell it on ebay and get most of your money back and try another one.

[SEE]

Steer clear of the AV8R-03 would be my advice, there are far better similarly priced alternatives!



This thread may be of use for listing compatible PC-PS3 sticks..............

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=11825

[jameson]

I recommend that you buy a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 joystick. These are not available new but can be obtained used off ebay for very modest prices considering they are still, even now, the best joystick ever made. They are built like tanks, weigh a couple of kilogrammes due to the force feedback mechanism and enable you to fly right on the edge of the stall because you can feel the plane through the stick. Every other stick mentioned thus far in this thread is a joke compared to one of these, I have 3 of them and paid less than £20 for each, even the one most used with a little play in the stick mechanism is a joy to fly with. It all comes down to whether you prefer to have lots of buttons to play with or like flying on the edge. An FFB2 has more than enough buttons to fly any fighter. Microsoft stopped making them because they ruined it's reputation for making crap, can I say more?

[Sokol1]

Coen020,

If you plan fly in iL-2, WoP, go to Tm T.16000-M, forget these PS3/XBOX combatible, they use a generic USB controller, note the same of PC version, the mentioned deadzone is in firmware, so no cure.

The best you do: Buy Thrustmaster X for PS3 games, and buy T.16000M for PC SIMS.

In PC SIM, use Tm X throttle with T.16000M as "HOTAS" - leave Tm X stick as button bay.

The best of the two (cheap) worlds.

Sokol1

[Chivas]

You should be able to get any stick you want as there are companies that ship world wide.

They're hasn't been a good joystick produced since the MSFF2. I know I've owned them all. I would pick up the MSFF2 on ebay. The Aviator isn't a bad stick, but I'm not sure how it stands up.

I just ordered the Warthog Hotas but it is very expensive. The most important aspects of a stick for me is software, smoothness, and precision. I know Thrustmaster software is very good, and the new ball joint gimbal systems should be very smooth and precise.

[SEE]

Unlike the Xbox, the PS3 can use USB PC joysticks (i.e X52's, etc). This is one of the requirements COEN020 is looking for. A fair number of folks are using the popular PC sticks with PS3 BOP. Doesn't matter which PC stick he buys it appears that mapping them in PS3 games is the problem if his stick is not listed with a default set up. Console games offer mapping and customisation but is restricted to what the developers have built into their set up menu's.

[IceFire]

thanks man, i appreciate it, since these are the games i'm gonna play alot with this stick.

i'm just gonna let this thread cook for 2 days or so, see if anyone comes with a counterargument as why i should not buy it, and compare the pro's and con's

edit:

totally missed Klem's post

apperently there's ANOTHER interesting stick:

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/products/SAIAV8R03/4103-1-1.jpeg

This baby can also be used on the ps3 which is a big pro for me.

Check which version. I think some of these support PS3 and some others don't. If I remember right.

[Coen020]

gee, have there ever been so many different opinions in one thread :P

anyway, how about this combination:

http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/thrustmaster_joystick-thumb-450x296.jpg

+

http://pan.fotovista.com/dev/9/3/00066939/l_00066939.jpg

it's a whopping 110 euro together, so i doubt i'll buy it. It's just that i really want throttle, and the T-16000m Joystick just doesn't have a nice one.

[gww6323]

http://shop.ebay.nl/?_from=R40&_trksid=p4522.m570.l1313&_nkw=ch+product&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Good stuff coen ch products

[moilami]

gee, have there ever been so many different opinions in one thread :P

anyway, how about this combination:

http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/thrustmaster_joystick-thumb-450x296.jpg

+

http://pan.fotovista.com/dev/9/3/00066939/l_00066939.jpg

it's a whopping 110 euro together, so i doubt i'll buy it. It's just that i really want throttle, and the T-16000m Joystick just doesn't have a nice one.

Looks very nice! You could conf trims on the additional two levers. I might however suggest you to consider buying TrackIR or building Freetrack system instead of buying the throttle. TrackIR is like the way flight sims are supposed to be played. The most revolutionary gadget after joystick!

[ColdfireTrilogy]

Currently using one of those Thrustmaster Hotas-X sticks. Rock solid and great performance. I can't find a hotas setup for ~40$ let alone a normal stick that is as well built as this one is. I cant recommend it enough if you are on a tight budget!

[ColdfireTrilogy]

thanks man, i appreciate it, since these are the games i'm gonna play alot with this stick.

i'm just gonna let this thread cook for 2 days or so, see if anyone comes with a counterargument as why i should not buy it, and compare the pro's and con's

edit:

totally missed Klem's post

apperently there's ANOTHER interesting stick:

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/products/SAIAV8R03/4103-1-1.jpeg

This baby can also be used on the ps3 which is a big pro for me.

Also have this stick. GARBAGE STAY AWAY. There are multiple axises bound to the same function. Rudder twist and Throttle literally interfere with eachother and function as the same axis .... it works for consoles but not well at all on the PC ... i wouldn't touch this product with a 10 foot pole.

[Coen020]

@ColdfireTrilogy

lol at the 10 foot pole, thanks btw, i am definitaly not gonna buy the AV8R then.

i think im sticking with the hotas x then, it's not what most people recommend but hell, i'm not buying a 200 dollar stick, i dont play simulators as much as they do.

As for TrackIR, it's awesome yes but is expensive as in 200 dollars or so, so no thanks, i usually use my mouse for looking around, which is annoying when in tight situations but oh well. I'm pretty used to it now, + the hotas x has HAT switch right?, yeah i think it does so, that will work.

Part of the reason i'm buying a cheap stick is because i'm new to sticks, if i buy the Warthog, im Instant-Broke + it'l probably take me 10 days of reading the manual.

[swiss]

As for TrackIR, it's awesome yes but is expensive as in 200 dollars or so, so no thanks, i usually use my mouse for looking around, which is annoying when in tight situations but oh well. I'm pretty used to it now, + the hotas x has HAT switch right?, yeah i think it does so, that will work.



Do you know how to use a soldering iron?
Can you sew on a button?

If yes, go freetrack and build your own TIR for ~$30 and two hours of your time.

[HanneG]

There are multiple axises bound to the same function. Rudder twist and Throttle literally interfere with eachother and function as the same axis ...

How is that even possible? In the picture you posted the levers and stick appear to be on separate physical axes. Could you post a picture of Il-2's input control panel clearly showing they're the same?

[wizardd]

Hi guys,

My first thread here so be kind please.

I know there are already tons of threads about this subject, yet it didnt apply to joysticks where i can lay my hands on. (i live in The Netherlands).

As far as i've searched these are the joysticks that i can buy.

T-Flight Hotas X Joystick & Gas Throttle from Thrustmaster

http://www.all4games.nl/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/68173.jpg

++ It has a throttle which can be detached from the stick
++ It also works on ps3 which is a big pro since i own one
- It's ugly as hell, just look at the banana shaped throttle
- It looks like it doesn't have the option to twist the stick to use the rudder


I have that T-Flight, and well, it's not the most precise joystick around... It has huge dead area in the middle. Compared to CH Fighterstick it's pretty horrible. But it's cheap.

[Erkki]

CH.

[Mysticpuma]

I can only comment on three sticks I have used.

Saitek X-52 was okay, but needed a spring fix on the stick to help make it feel tighter, the initial batch had an awful Deadzone problem which was improved but not fixed in later versions.

Saitek X-52 Pro. Much better, the throttle and SST Software were fantastic and the stick was very good. The Deadzone was fixed as-was the spring tension and I used it for a good two-years without problems.

Thrustmaster Cougar Hotas with Gimbals and Hall Sensor mods. OMG! Best investment I ever made. The stick is rock solid, very heavy so no movement off desk, the programming software is excellent and there are so-many profiles and the stick has a feel that it will never fall apart, very, very sturdy.

I also have the Simped Rudder pedals and these too are outstanding.

If you have the money and you mainly fly propeller aircraft (as I understand the warthog is better for jets) this modded stick is just awesome!

So Modded Cougar and Simpeds will last you until BoB:SoW:1946 comes out at-least! ;)

Cheers, MP

[SEE]

How is that even possible? In the picture you posted the levers and stick appear to be on separate physical axes. Could you post a picture of Il-2's input control panel clearly showing they're the same?

Axis/button bus data isn't shown in IL2. You need a utility that shows data transfer for each data bus as decoded in the 'driver'. My x52 shows that the scroll wheel shares the same bus as one of the flight axis. My X52 Pro scrollwheel on the other hand uses the 'button' data bus.

[Coen020]

well guys, i've ordered the hotas x.

considering some people said it was very unprecise and others said it was pretty good, i'm hoping im the last kind of person.
Some people thought it was a bad stick, but i got the feeling they were comparing it to sticks like the Warthog, which is kinda unfair.

I was just looking for a simple stick, that didnt cost over 100 euro.
however i did want a throttle lever, and the Thrustmaster hotas X had one.

Perhaps if it totally sucks, i will return it and buy the T-16000m.

thanks for all wise comments people, hopefully i've made the right choice.
now let's get back to waiting for SOW and when it comes out i will kick your iron butt with my new Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS X!

[moilami]

Well I hope you will be content with your choise and don't end up buying sticks like some women buy shoes!

[Coen020]

haha, yeah wel i do think the throttle from the hotas x looks a bit like the high heels from a woman :P

[albx]

well guys, i've ordered the hotas x.

considering some people said it was very unprecise and others said it was pretty good, i'm hoping im the last kind of person.
Some people thought it was a bad stick, but i got the feeling they were comparing it to sticks like the Warthog, which is kinda unfair.

I was just looking for a simple stick, that didnt cost over 100 euro.
however i did want a throttle lever, and the Thrustmaster hotas X had one.

Perhaps if it totally sucks, i will return it and buy the T-16000m.

thanks for all wise comments people, hopefully i've made the right choice.
now let's get back to waiting for SOW and when it comes out i will kick your iron butt with my new Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS X!

well, my friend, as I told you I had this joystick for a couple of months.. and this was the better circle I could draw with joytester :D. IMO IL2 require a very precise joystick... so this could be good for games like HAWX or something like that... but not for IL-2. If you compare with the also cheap AV8R, well, the AV8R (that i also have) is another world, more precise but not so comfortable like the hotas.X

[LoBiSoMeM]

well, my friend, as I told you I had this joystick for a couple of months.. and this was the better circle I could draw with joytester :D. IMO IL2 require a very precise joystick... so this could be good for games like HAWX or something like that... but not for IL-2. If you compare with the also cheap AV8R, well, the AV8R (that i also have) is another world, more precise but not so comfortable like the hotas.X

But people don't believe about the t16000m precision. I will not post more joytester results. People like to believe only expensive solutions are good, some people believe nothing will ever have the precision of a MSFF2... I'm tired.

Let's peole buy all kinds of cheap joysticks without HALL and blame all the entry level-all plastic joysticks, and after go buy expensive HOTAS solutions.

Always amazes me why the joystick market don't have much good but cheap joysticks. Well, we have, the t16000m, but people don't buy it, people deserves to pay more for bad performance...

Strange! REALLY strange! IL-2 people don't believe in benchmarks and tests... LOL!

When I saw less than $50 and HALL sensor in X and Y and the good preview of Sokol1 about it, I don't think a second more: bought the plastic toy, and have great experience over a year.

[tigertank44]

well, my friend, as I told you I had this joystick for a couple of months.. and this was the better circle I could draw with joytester :D. IMO IL2 require a very precise joystick... so this could be good for games like HAWX or something like that... but not for IL-2. If you compare with the also cheap AV8R, well, the AV8R (that i also have) is another world, more precise but not so comfortable like the hotas.X

Does it mean that AV8R-03 is a relatively good joy for IL2?

[Sokol1]

Does it mean that AV8R-03 is a relatively good joy for IL2?

No, what is good is AV8R - PC only version.
AV8R-02 (XBOX & PC) or AV8R-03 (PS3 & PC), use a different - and poor USB controller. Dont buy these two, prefer Tm. T16.0000M that due to the use of HALL Sensor (same of Tm. Warthog) in X and Y axis is better.

Old review of AV8R - made by simmers (not for journalist/blogger). Notice Joytester2 curve.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsaitek.ru%2Fother%2FAviator%2F

I think that AV8R (PC only version) was discontinued.

Sokol1

[RDDD]

Going to revive this thread a bit.... been out of IL-2 for years and I'm looking to get back, but I need a new HOTAS system!

I've always loved the cougar and but have so far been unable to find one these days, so if anyone know if I can still buy these let me know! I looked at the Warthog stick that seems to be the next "step" after the cougar but I don't really think it's the shit for WW2 combat, still like the look of the cougar more.

But all in all.... people give my links to good sticks.


Thanks in advance