Why take completely unhistorical approch to vehicles?

[aop]

I though Men of War was supposed to be somewhat realistic and historically correct but then I noticed the British have both Black Prince and Centurion and neither of them served on European continent or saw any action during World War 2.

They already have 17pdr armed Achilles, Sherman Firefly and Comet. Wasn't that enough? Did they really need a post-war tank and a prototype that never served?

What next? Give yeankees M48 Patton?

[KnightFandragon]

Black Prince and Centurion im sure are for play balance to give the British a tank that can stand up to German heavies...even then I doubt those can...they have butter for armor still...

[Crni vuk]

I though Men of War was supposed to be somewhat realistic and historically correct but then I noticed the British have both Black Prince and Centurion and neither of them served on European continent or saw any action during World War 2.


Since when was Men of war called a simulation ? Or even trying to be "realistic" ? It has few calculations thrown in here and there, fo the armor, angle and shells. But its far from realism. It makes the combat more complex which is a good thing and I like the game. But as said I would not make the mistake to see the game as realistic. And like Fangdragon said. Its more or less for the balance. You do know that no other unit could hold up to a Tiger or Panther in the field when it comes to armor. Achiles ? Archer ? Firefly ? Letz be serious here. The gun is powerfull but that was it. once hit from the Tiger or Panther and they are usualy out of action. The centurion is here a great unit. Same for the Comet. Though the centurion is maybe a bit to cheap for a unit that has no trouble to beat panthers and tigers.

[firearms2k]

Since when was Men of war called a simulation ? Or even trying to be "realistic" ? It has few calculations thrown in here and there, fo the armor, angle and shells. But its far from realism. It makes the combat more complex which is a good thing and I like the game. But as said I would not make the mistake to see the game as realistic. And like Fangdragon said. Its more or less for the balance. You do know that no other unit could hold up to a Tiger or Panther in the field when it comes to armor. Achiles ? Archer ? Firefly ? Letz be serious here. The gun is powerfull but that was it. once hit from the Tiger or Panther and they are usualy out of action. The centurion is here a great unit. Same for the Comet. Though the centurion is maybe a bit to cheap for a unit that has no trouble to beat panthers and tigers.

One hit is usually all it takes for any tank, so I don't know what you're getting at there.

It's implications of realism, and gameplay balance issues that wash out the entire need of even giving a game realistic features. If you're not going to stand by implementing realistic features, just to wash them out with the excuse of 'Balance', and 'Gameplay' then don't bother implementing them in the first place. This is the biggest gripe I have with this game, it's realistic features is what makes it different and far more complex than a game of Company of Heroes, but they wash it out in extremely dumbfounded ways; progressively turning it into a game of Company of Heroes again.

The Centurion is a dumb idea, for all the matter if the Centurion/Black Prince/IS-3/T29 is in the game, then the Germans should get Panzer Löwe's, and the Maus for the same reason of your 'Balance', and 'Gameplay'. It doesn't make sense, and I was very pleased to see the Turtle, and the American T29 gone in the factions for the release of the open beta. At the current state of the open beta if they don't fix it, it's just going to be vanilla MoW with the same tank stacking every game, which the devs so pleasently represent that they're doing away with. And with the Centurion being only 1400-1500 iirc(?), it's incredibly easy.

[DMS|Instinct]

The Centurion is a dumb idea, for all the matter if the Centurion/Black Prince/IS-3/T29 is in the game, then the Germans should get Panzer Löwe's, and the Maus for the same reason of your 'Balance', and 'Gameplay'.
Please elaborate why you think this has something to do with balance or gameplay.

[Crni vuk]

One hit is usually all it takes for any tank, so I don't know what you're getting at there.


I made a different experience though where I would hit a tank with powerfull guns several times just geting the "crew injured" or "hull pierced" message where the enemy tank managed to kill my armor with the first shoot while it just had 2 crewmen inside ... if you callt hat realistic ? Neat. But I dont. I call it some exagerated feature. There is a very famous footage on youtube available about a battle between the Panther and Pershing in cologne which shows very nicely what usualy happens when a tank gets hit and penetrated (it even shows how the second or third shoot by the pershing simply shatters on the Panthers armor, but thats not important since the first shoot was a direct hit).

Even if a tank is just hit and nothing "vital" would be damaged (leaving alone the crew ...) it would be extremly difficult well pretty much impossible to operate the vehicle effectively from the smoke and heat generated by the shoot and penetration.

[Jammermon]

Read some actual WW-II Armor after action reports. They are all unclassified now.

Tanks were considered either "resistant to typical enemy" or "vulnerable to typical enemy" by their crews.
The ones considered vulnerable, (example Shermans were nicknamed Ronsons by their own crews and "Tommy Cookers" by the Germans) were often bailed out when hit by a non penetrating hit. Regardless once immobile the common result was a bail out.

This idea of a tank sitting rock solid taking hit after hit imprevious to penetration is a gamers concept based on penetration THEORY.
Every tank had vulnerable spots; turrent rings, vision slits, traps under gun boss, flat surfaces... even a Jagdtiger was toast once it's tracks were damaged...

If nothing else a ricochet between the tracks COULD enter the vulnerable underside...

No crew ignored hits over 40MM...

[KnightFandragon]

Ive always wondered what are the effects of a tank shell once they penetrate armor? Not modern day ones but WWII shells like the 75mm of the Sherman. It is so low velocity that it couldnt penetrate the front of anything but can penetrate the side, what does it do to "knockout" the tank. Ive always imagined a Sherman round penetrating the side of a panther tank and since the shell is Low Velocity it goes through the armor but loses all velocity and is left resting on the floor of the Panther.....while the Crew is just laughing and killing the Sherrmy. Anywho, Does the explosion of the shell light up ammo or something? To me it seems an AP round going into a tank just makes a hole, its like why get out? The tank still works.....If it doesnt light up or explode why bail out of it? Ive always wondered why crews bail from a mostly perfectly fine tank.

[Jammermon]

The HVAP round tended to enter and ricochet around inside, the HEAP round tends to send a high temperature splatter around. Either injury was grevious. Even a standard non-HVAP was still chugging along at speeds above pistol ammo, but as big as your fist...

Arms legs, and sundry body parts missing, complete or near complete incineration, sometimes even just a bio jelly left in the tank bottom, all tended to result in a "Get out!" when hit...

And the Sherman "Easy Eight" with 76MM gun firing HVAP (500 meters/115MM Armor) had a chance of penetrating any German armor inside 250-300 yards... i
t's one of the reasons the Panzers avoided city fighting...

Jammer

Only a very few tanks had fire suppression in WW-II.

[Bobb4]

Ive always wondered what are the effects of a tank shell once they penetrate armor? Not modern day ones but WWII shells like the 75mm of the Sherman. It is so low velocity that it couldnt penetrate the front of anything but can penetrate the side, what does it do to "knockout" the tank. Ive always imagined a Sherman round penetrating the side of a panther tank and since the shell is Low Velocity it goes through the armor but loses all velocity and is left resting on the floor of the Panther.....while the Crew is just laughing and killing the Sherrmy. Anywho, Does the explosion of the shell light up ammo or something? To me it seems an AP round going into a tank just makes a hole, its like why get out? The tank still works.....If it doesnt light up or explode why bail out of it? Ive always wondered why crews bail from a mostly perfectly fine tank.

A heat round normally has a tungstan tip which punches a hole through the armour. Behind the tungstan tip the shell is nomally filled with copper and this liquifies due to kinetic energy and sprays through the hole forming pinhead sized balls with harden as they enter the tank crew area.
These buzz around inside bouncing from wall to wall like millions of pin sized tennis balls.
The end result resembles mince meat crew.
A normal heat round hit does not leave room for a bail out of crew.
Oddly enough the thinner the armour the more likely there is for a through and through which means unless you are in the way of the round everyone lives.
The modern RPG works on the same principle it is just delivered via rocket rather than round.

[rossw]

This idea of a tank sitting rock solid taking hit after hit imprevious to penetration is a gamers concept based on penetration THEORY.
Every tank had vulnerable spots; turrent rings, vision slits, traps under gun boss, flat surfaces... even a Jagdtiger was toast once it's tracks were damaged...

There was an episode of Tank Overhaul where they had a Ferdinand knocked out frontally by a 75 Sherman. The round had jammed in behind the front wheel and the crew had bailed out. Fairly sure that the first Tiger kill by the Western Allies was by a Churchill. Fired a round which stuck under the Tiger's turret jamming it completely

Ive always wondered what are the effects of a tank shell once they penetrate armor? Not modern day ones but WWII shells like the 75mm of the Sherman. It is so low velocity that it couldnt penetrate the front of anything but can penetrate the side, what does it do to "knockout" the tank. Ive always imagined a Sherman round penetrating the side of a panther tank and since the shell is Low Velocity it goes through the armor but loses all velocity and is left resting on the floor of the Panther.....while the Crew is just laughing and killing the Sherrmy. Anywho, Does the explosion of the shell light up ammo or something? To me it seems an AP round going into a tank just makes a hole, its like why get out? The tank still works.....If it doesnt light up or explode why bail out of it? Ive always wondered why crews bail from a mostly perfectly fine tank.

A Sherman 75 could kill a Panther from the side at about a mile or more.

The shell breaking through the armour would be red hot, if it hits the fuel tank or ammunition the tank would explode. Also bits of the armour would break off and bounce around inside the tank (spalling).

The UK developed a round which it turned out was very good at causing spalling, and could kill without actually puncturing the armour. The HESH (High Explosive, Squash Head) was designed to break concrete in fortifications. The explosive tip of the shell would squash flat on impact so that when it went off a pressure wave passed through the material and blasted off the other side. On a tank this could kill crew or ignite fuel and ammunition. Still use them in the Challenger (HEAT doesn't work very well from a rifled gun)

[KnightFandragon]

So a Round jamming in the turret ring.........how does that put the tank totally out of action? Couldnt the crew then use the tank like a Stug? Just couldnt turn the turret....Im sure the round gets jammed in well enough only a visit to the shop would fix...which the Germans im sure were short on haha.

[rossw]

So a Round jamming in the turret ring.........how does that put the tank totally out of action? Couldnt the crew then use the tank like a Stug? Just couldnt turn the turret....Im sure the round gets jammed in well enough only a visit to the shop would fix...which the Germans im sure were short on haha.

The StuG's gun can move around.

Tiger Turret (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Tiger131ricochet.JPG) linked because it is too big

The shot hit the underside of the gun, ricocheted and jammed in the turret ring. The Tiger then couldn't turn its turret. It would be impossible to fight in a tank which can't move its turret. How could you aim at a target a thousand yards away when the driver can't see where the gun it pointing? Why am I explaining this?

[ElenBlaster]

Guys maybe i have not so many ww2 knowledge as i can see, but i think if you want to play this game there should be SOME balance...i know, that post war tanks are not good, but they are fitting this game nice (for ex. it was almost impossible to see japs in vmow and now they are almost in every 2nd. game i see...thx to new balance...and they tanks are nice if you forget that they are only prototypes...same with pershing, black prince etc...) So if you can balance game this way, its the only option...but i think if you can balance this game realisticaly, there are faaar another ways that only armour - allies should get dive bombers or rocket planes (cuz game is set in late war...), commonwealt should get hurricane with rockets too, germans stuka without rockets (cuz germs planes got rockets lately and in less numbers) but with 20mm cannons, russians IL 2 sturmvik with rockets too and japs should get their 105mm at gun, maybe 105mm AA gun or 240mm howitzer (used before ww2 and during) or another strong arty (and they had plenty)...for example they dont need heavy tanks cuz they have HA-TO wich can be used by good players veeeeery good...(once i took out 5 tanks - 1 KT, 2VT and 2 panzers 4 before it got killed) ... and that planes should be for ex. for 500 MP or more and used only 1 or 2 times or be as hero units...something like that...and it should be easy to put them in MOD or patch, cuz they are already in skirmish or vmow - nothing difficult...and its more real to call some plane instead of chi-ri or black prince...any suggestions ??? :) (sorry for my english, still learning...)

[T-34type85]

sure... you try just with firefly and churchill, is really hard for many people (not me, i use a lot of field guns when i play UK, 32pdr!!!) anyways is to make the game more balance

[Inuki]

I though Men of War was supposed to be somewhat realistic and historically correct but then I noticed the British have both Black Prince and Centurion and neither of them served on European continent or saw any action during World War 2.

They already have 17pdr armed Achilles, Sherman Firefly and Comet. Wasn't that enough? Did they really need a post-war tank and a prototype that never served?

What next? Give yeankees M48 Patton?

The battles you are playing are not a part of world war 2. Every skirmish game, Every multiplayer game, never actually happened historically.

I find this an outrage. When I join a multiplayer game I want everything to be 100% historically accurate. Joe biship from my 2nd squad didn't throw a hand grenade in a 4v4. What a load of old toss! Those jerry rogers didn't even have a panzer IV behind that house in real life!

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Point is. What happens in the game is not an event in world war 2. It's not a battle that took place and even if it was. You are here to change what happened with your play style.

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As a side note though. You can have a realistic rendition of Starcraft. There are different levels of realism too. Units with HP is not realistic which is what starcraft 2 uses. But imagine if all the physics worked like Men of War? Zerglings actually ripping marines arms off or climbing on top of tanks trying to destroy the hull. Carriers crashing to the ground into roaches smearing debris all over a building. This is more realistic even though the concept of the entire thing is completely surreal! Those tanks did exist though. Unlike anything in Starcraft. The units fit well in the game. Which is more realistic than inventing make belief tanks up and throwing them in the game. Which would also be fine as long as the tanks fit the era. The balance of the game is important.

[waaaghmasta]

MOWAS's IMBA problem has nothing to do with historic accuracy, it is the fact when the cheaper Pak-40 outperform the more expensive flak-38, and the fact that USSR has nothing in early-medium game to stand up against 2nd tier AT-guns (pak-40 etc), and a few 2nd tier AT-gun complete dominant the battlefield and slaughter any armour that comes in sight. THAT is the problem, I want to play men of war, not World of AT guns.

[KnightFandragon]

Well the fact your getting owned by AT guns means this game is historically accurate. AT guns were more frequent then tanks and were plenty more then adequete to smoke the visor right of any tank it encounters. As for imbalances, this game does a pretty good job of keeping it balanced enough and yet giving the nations their strengths. The fact the Russians have crap medium tanks is right, truth be told the T34 wasnt all that great of a tank. It is way over hyped as being the best tank in the world and crap...it really isnt all that. It has 45mm of sloped armor and that isnt going to stop crap. The 34 was only really good in the few months following its arrival, much past that it was junk. When the Germans started brining in those beloved Pak40s and 75mm Pzr IVs and stuff the T34 showed its true colors. Numbers alone is all that makes the US and Russian medium tanks anything at all.....

Also, if your having trouble with AT guns you might want to cut back on Tanks and all your armor and buy a few infantry squads. This game is NOT like COH where it is a race to the biggest and most tanks, it is a combined arms game that requires infantry to spot for your otherwise blind tanks and then the tanks sit in the BACK and blast stuff...If people could get past the thought that tanks are gods and invulnerable they would have less heartache in this game. Just gotta play it right. Infantry, set up vision zones and stuff, sit tanks and support units in the back and kinda wait. This game seems to go to the more patient ones as rushing in just gets you murdered.