Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[Il2Pongo]

NO DUCKSFORD!
say it isn't so, those button clickers have won again.

[addman]

Everybody just calm down! LOL! Hasn't it struck anyone that there might be several "versions" of the map? Like we have in IL-2 where some bases are on one version and not on the other i.e the Guadalcanal maps. Just a thought :grin:

[Rattlehead]

First time poster, long-time builder and player.

This is a significant update, thanks very much Oleg and team for showing us the guts of the game.
Very interesting stuff, and things will get more interesting when we actually start to build missions and campaigns.

Some quick comments:

*The size of the map is very impressive. It's more than I dared hope for, thank you.

*I'm glad to see triggers will finally be a part of the FMB. This will allow for so many more scenarios to unfold in a mssion as opposed to the old FMB.
I don't know if the question has been asked, but will the triggers be area triggers or event triggers, or maybe a combination of both?

*I like the look of the new FMB. It looks instantly familiar...which is a good thing.

Thanks again for the update.

[kendo65]

Klem

You have made some very good points.

Oleg may be able to address your concerns. Possibly a while after the initial release with an enlarged map, which could release as a patch.

Then again, for security reasons the actual map for BOB SOW may not be what we are seeing in the screenshots. Afterall, the SOW is about the Battle of Britain. It just doesn't make sense for a BOB to not have all the groups covered.

Afterall, many users already have large amounts of ram, high performance video cards, and multi-processors. It has been my understanding the map sizes have been restricted principally to allow persons with lower spec systems to use the sim.

Oh NO!! Just when it had all been sorted! (nearly) ;)

I can't see that being the case Nearmiss. Are you suggesting that you were hoping for the map to go all the way to Scotland (and presumably then include Norway too - sorry that old Norwegian horse has been flogged pretty hard by me these last few days :) ), to cover anywhere that saw ANY action at all in the BOB?

(I believe the first German aircraft to be shot down in Britain was up north [either Scotland or north of England?])

Or, do you mean that it should just include the SW and up to the midlands?

There are a lot of cities to include in a bigger map - if they're all going to be done to the same standard as London it's going to take a LONG time, and for what real benefit? How many times will people re-enact a raid on Hull?

Also, the secrecy argument has been used a few times before by people who have a hard time believing that their personal idea of what the game would be isn't going to happen. I don't buy it. :)

By the way, where is Oleg when we need him?;)

[FlatSpinMan]

Hopefully not bothering reading the last 5 or so pages.

[JG52Krupi]

Lol well said.

I understand why some ppl are frustrated, Oleg should say something on this as clearly some of us were expecting a larger map.

Personally I would have liked the south west to be present but I'm not too bothered.

[Insuber]

I would happily play this game with the present map. Just give it us asap, please.

[brando]

hopefully not bothering reading the last 5 or so pages.

+100%

[d165w3ll]

I was looking forward to bombing Weymouth, but Southampton'll do nicely. And Sidcup of course, coming to get you Sidcup.

Thanks for the update, looks like more lost weeks in the mission builder ahead.

What about Slough? (;))

[Blackdog_kt]

But you're back into 'what if' scenarios again.

That was my main point before (someone else also made the same point talking about the campaign - as an individual pilot or even a squadron commander you have no real influence in those kinds of questions. You just follow the orders handed down from Group or higher level)

When flying a mission in il2 or SOW you will be given a briefing - your instructions - there is no lee-way. You don't get to choose what targets to attack and you don't get to say that your superior's strategy is rubbish.

The jump to allowing the player to decide targetting and strategy is really a jump to a different game (or a different level). It is something that was never in il2 for instance.

It seems that BOB will restrict a player to fulfilling the role of an individual pilot / squadron commander. You will take part in missions and endeavour through use of tactics and skill to succeed. You won't get to decide the strategy, targetting, etc. If you want a realistic campaign that reflects the experience of the real-life pilots then this is accurate.

If we want a sim that allows us to be Keith Park or Leigh Mallory I think we need a different game, or a massively expanded game that would include resource management elements (pilots, aircraft) and require the player to manage locations for squadrons along with targetting and how the squadrons are used.

Personally speaking, I would love to have a game that covered all of those levels. I just realise how big a leap beyond il2 that would be, and I don't think we're going to get it.

this has got off-topic somewhat, but it all comes out of the debate about the map - the type of game we are going to get determines the type of map we need

I agree with you. The thing is, i agree because i'm mostly an off-liner. For an online server running realistic missions, the limited initial scope of the new series will mean that lots of mission builders will want to delve into slightly what-if territory.

In that case, the player does in fact shape and decide strategy by the way he's building the mission. Not to mention that if the new multiplayer mode that's been talked about is in fact what most people think and hope it will be (an online dynamic campaign, like DF and coop mode mixed together with supply considerations and monitoring thrown in), the impact of players on deciding the overall strategy becomes even more.
If we think of having this sort of DF server that runs weekly scenarios instead of missions spanning a few hours, it's obvious that there will be no predeterimned briefing like there is in co-ops and single player campaigns, no definite orders, but the players will form up on ad-hoc missions of their own in an effort to achieve the objectives as efficiently as they can.

Give players, any players of any game, the competitive incentive and they will soon come up with a lot of variations that the people in charge back in the day missed or simply didn't want to risk trying.
In that sense, i have a feeling we'll see a hugely succesful use of the 110 for example, with most people using them as fast fighter bombers and for fighter sweeps ahead of the main bomber stream, tactics that were never used in the real battle.

I do agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere and the game released. However, it would be good to know that if a community made and limited in size map of sufficient quality could be made for the "missing" territory, that it could be incorporated into a patch that joins it with the rest of the official map, just like community submitted aircraft made it into IL-2 in the past. I guess this solution would please everyone in the long run ;)

Edit: I see you guys beat me to it :grin:

[JAMF]

Then again, for security reasons the actual map for BOB SOW may not be what we are seeing in the screenshots. Afterall, the SOW is about the Battle of Britain. It just doesn't make sense for a BOB to not have all the groups covered.Let's hope they still have the map as "in development" because, as it was pointed out in another forum, the Basin de l'Atlantique wasn't built till after the war.

Center of image: Harbour to the left of Dunkirk
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/1511/shot20101203154558porti.jpg

"Today" : Harbour roadstead to the left, docks to the right, near city centre
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/5248/dunkirkbasin.jpg

Aerial '44. Harbour and sea access near city centre. Would overlay the image above to the right quarter.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2940/dunkirk44s.jpg

[Asheshouse]

That 1944 aerial image looks awfully similar to the details on an il2 map which I've seen somewhere. ;)

[Jadehawk]

This is the other part of shots from FMB: Don't ask about list of all planes I show only these that I want to show.

Oleg and gang,
It's been quite a long time since I posted here for Il2. but I have been following the progress always and after checking your screen shot examples, I would suggest the following:
Consider changing the nation flag for Germany and Italy to Black. Britian, Canada and France to Blue, USA to Green. I do not know if this is possible, but just a suggestion. As with everyone else, I am greatly looking forward to seeing this game in the near future!

Jadehawk

[Rodolphe]

...


First of all I would like to thank Oleg and his team for this interesting glimpse of the FMB and Map.


Let's hope they still have the map as "in development" because, as it was pointed out in another forum, the Basin de l'Atlantique wasn't built till after the war.



@JAMF
This issue could be more complex to solved. :(


Anachronism and map

Years ago, when the '1946' title became available, the included 'Bonus' DVD allowed us to discover the early phases of development of the so eagerly-awaited BoB SoW.

Among other subject, that video uncovered the dev'team members at their respective 'Battle station", depicting some of the today well-known aircraft, vehicles, buildings, miscellaneous objects and map.

With one scene, we could overlooked Maxim K', working on the South-East Canterbury area with the Map Builder tool.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Canterbury.jpg

At that time I was a little worried about the referential map data used to create the in-game map. For example, the M2/A2, the motorway connecting Dover to London was depicted (in red on the above picture) on the referential map which most certainly confirmed the use of a modern, post WWII map edition. Hopefully this motorway is not represented on the game map. ; ))




Last summer, the BoB SoW July 09th update, the following screenshot had a first example of anachronism with the existence of the King George VI Reservoir (opened only in November 1947) .

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Bucking.jpg





With this update, I still have some worries with the publication of the latest screenshots.

Let's have a look on the rapidly expending post war urbanization of towns and cities and compare the extract of this Ordnance Survey of Great Britain 1940's edition map with the BoB SoW Map.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/southend6a.jpg
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/southend6aa.jpg


We can observe the quite larger brown cities areas of the future game map compared to the original 1940'S map.


A closer look at the town of Southend

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/southend.jpghttp://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/southend1.jpg




Now I go back to my armchair next to the open fire with a wonderfull feeling of drowsy tranquillity. ;)

...

[Sutts]

Oh dear, looks like someone's been relying too much on google earth. Shame we didn't see the map sooner. This explains why all the fields have modern day tractor tramlines too. And the 1947 reservoir and so on......

You'd think they could have found a period map to use.:roll:

Just hope modders have access to the main map.

Shame.

[Sutts]

You're right Roldophe. The areas depicted on the SoW map look like they're lifted straight from modern day google earth.

Period orndance survey maps for the area can be found here:

http://www.ponies.me.uk/maps/osmap.html

If you compare the period map with the SoW offering you can clearly see how the individual settlements of the time have been merged and spread outwards. Canvey Island (highlighted in blue) did have a small development area but nothing like that presented on the SoW map (which matches modern google almost exactly).

Even more interesting is Basildon which in the 1940s was a collection of a few streets hardly worth mentioning. After the war this area was designated one of the modern "New Towns" and was massively expanded. This expansion is seen on the SoW map.

The sad thing is, if this is true, then the developers have spent hundreds of hours creating huge populated areas which never even existed at the time. I was really hoping to get an experience of flying over wartime Britain. It looks like what we'll be getting is a very modern Britain with all its huge, ugly post war expansion. A real disappointment for me.

With all the attention to detail the team has shown in the aircraft area, I really did expect to see at least a bit of basic research in the map department.

I do hope I'm proven wrong.

[Il2Pongo]

I don't think much of allot off peoples gripes, but what you have shown here is pretty significant.
The whole character of the area is changed if the towns are all 2010 density and sprawl vs 1940 density and sprawl.

Wont stop me for a second from playing or buying, but it is significant to the flavour of the maps and the polygon counts as well.

[swiss]

Oh dear, looks like someone's been relying too much on google earth. Shame we didn't see the map sooner. This explains why all the fields have modern day tractor tramlines too. And the 1947 reservoir and so on......

You'd think they could have found a period map to use.:roll:

Just hope modders have access to the main map.

Shame.


Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?

[Sutts]

Looks like all towns got the same treatment. Here's Slough which sits above Windsor with the Thames running inbetween. I've drawn 2 red lines which pretty accurately box in Slough on the period map. One line is drawn from the right edge of Windsor (which hasn't changed much) and the other is taken from the right edge of the big loop in the Thames before it turns north again briefly.

As you can see, the size of Slough is approx. 3 times what it should be in 1940.

I include the same lines on the SoW map and a modern google earth map for comparison.

[Sutts]

Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?


With respect, just because something isn't important to you doesn't mean everyone else feels the same. This is an historical sim. The German crews will be bombing historical towns.

I know many of us were hoping to be able to navigate using period maps and bomb aim using original target maps. Also, just feeling the atmosphere of undeveloped 1940s Britain would have been nice too.

This all goes out of the window if the map is based on modern Britain. I wouldn't be surprised to see the M40 in there too!

We're not talking about small differences here. Anyone who lives in the UK knows about the sprawl of the post war New Towns. Bracknell used to be a little village. Now it's a huge sprawling mess of a place. Same with Milton Keynes and countless other places.

I realise it's too late now....but it was a very simple task to obtain a period map before work began.

[kaisey]

Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?

Totally agree swiss

I thought BOB was an aerial batlle? not a town planning meeting, some of you guys do have a lot of time on your hands

[ATAG_Dutch]

Will you blokes give it a rest please?
The product Mr Maddox has been working on for the last few years is going to be as fantastic as IL2 was 10 years ago.
When that was released, it didn't include the Seige of Leningrad.
Then 'Forgotten Battles' was released, and it did.

As to the historical accuracy of the map, or whether or not the fields have the correctly shaped furrows for the agricultural systems employed at the time, will it really matter that much?

I'm as keen to get my hands on this masterpiece as anyone, but before we complain about what's not there, why don't we wait and see what is there?

I'm sure we're going to be impressed, whether Southend is bigger than it should be for 1940 or not (and what difference would it make when you're flying over it anyway?).

It strikes me that the frustration everyone is feeling in not being able to fly this sim now, is manifesting itself as unfounded and ill informed criticisms of something none but a privileged few have witnessed in full. And that includes the information that came out of Igromir.

Sorry Nearmiss, feel free to ban me, but it's getting on my wick.

Cheers.:grin:

[speculum jockey]

I'm sure we're going to be impressed, whether Southend is bigger than it should be for 1940 or not (and what difference would it make when you're flying over it anyway?).

Might cause lower FPS due to the PC having to render more buildings, but more likely it will result in a few people screaming, "My immersion!" then trying to end it all by downing their entire bottle of vitamin D supplements.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Nyuk, nyuk. :)

[nearmiss]

I don't recall anyone being disappointed with Oleg's work.

Again, the map in the screenshots... may not be the final release.

Talking about the map can't hurt. Afterall Oleg did post the update expecting feedback.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Talking about the map can't hurt. Afterall Oleg did post the update expecting feedback.

Hmmm... yes, but my impression was that the update was more about FMB than the map, and there have been quite a few posts asking questions about the new FMB which haven't been answered. Or are we asking the wrong questions?

[nearmiss]

Oleg usually hangs on the forums the first day. He may answer some questions when he posts the new update.

Sure would be a bonus, if he posted more screenshots from FMB.

The SOW FMB has been alot of mystery.

[Necrobaron]

I often find the criticism leveled at SoW overly pedantic or just outright silly, but it seems to me that if the map is as far off as some are saying, that's a big deal. I would say correctly modelling the area over which the Battle largely occured is absolutely important.
________
Wiki Vaporizer (http://vaporizerwiki.com)

[dflion]

I don't think any 12 Group stations are on the map and I'm not arguing against that it would be nice to have Duxford on the map.
SoW is obviously a Simulation based on 11 Group.

It would be nice if you were able to allow the player to call in sqn's from 12 Group to 11 Group airfields whilst in a mission, and accuratley represent the time delays involved.

Personally, I think it is more important to represent the Squadrons accuratley and be able to use them, than have Duxford.

There's a fine line between 'What it was like' and 'How it was'
If any game was exactly 'How it was' it wouldn't be a game any more, it'd be the longest documentary ever.

If you want to know what it was like to be an 11 Group Fighter Pilot in 1940 then SoW will show you 'what it was like'. If you want to be a 12 group pilot then you should probably give it a miss...

I totally agree with your post 'Winny'. SOW BOB will show us all 'more realistically than ever' what it was like, particularly using well crafted and accurate historical missions.

What is going to be very different from IL-2, is that if you survive to achieve 'flight leader' or 'squadron leader' status, your decision's as leader will depend on how your flight or squadron survive each air battle and progress through the 'Battle of Britain' and whether your 'Group' is winning? The same will apply for Luftwaffe pilots 'AI' or 'Online'.

I am sure Oleg has completely overhauled the 'AI' aircraft actions with a more comprehensive 'order suite' which can be better used by the commander. If you make wrong decision's, don't care about your 'AI' or 'Online' pilots, you are going to fail.
As a mission builder, you will be able to effectively 'call-in' Squadrons from 12 Group and create 'time delays' using 'airstart's'. Historically this is what happened. Action 'trigger points' will also make the 'what it was like' scenario a lot more accurate.

DFLion

[Letum]

Oleg usually hangs on the forums the first day. He may answer some questions when he posts the new update.

Sure would be a bonus, if he posted more screenshots from FMB.

The SOW FMB has been alot of mystery.


:grin:
So it has...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1339/alotofmystery.jpg
. (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html)

[Asheshouse]

I often find the criticism leveled at SoW overly pedantic or just outright silly, but it seems to me that if the map is as far off as some are saying, that's a big deal. I would say correctly modelling the area over which the Battle largely occured is absolutely important.

If for whatever reason the map has been developed based on modern urban areas then at this stage it may be financially impractical to consider significant changes. The historic info for the uk is available http://www.npemap.org.uk/

From the NPE site: If you drop us an email letting us know which areas you are interested in (ideally either sheet numbers, or the whole lot), and confirm that your use falls within the tile licence, we can work out the best way to let you get the tiles. It may even be possible for us to post you a dvd of the tiles, but we'll normally request a donation to OpenStreetMap in-leui of the postage.

Using the 1940's maps would significantly reduce map objects in urban areas therfore would presumably benefit fps/gameplay, to everyones benefit.

If it is too late for official changes maybe include the necessary tools with the FMB to edit the map and it could be done unofficially and later adopted, if the work is good enough.

[Triggaaar]

I often find the criticism leveled at SoW overly pedantic or just outright silly, but it seems to me that if the map is as far off as some are saying, that's a big deal. I would say correctly modelling the area over which the Battle largely occured is absolutely important.I agree. If this was any usual 'game' that we were looking at, we wouldn't care, but this isn't your usual game. Oleg has set the highest standards. Following previous update discussion you see the effort he has gone to regarding the landscape and photo-realistic colour, and he has gone to lengths to explain to us why it should look different from the sky than we're used to seeing on the ground. SoW could give us quite a unique look at the 1940s landscape and really help with immersion. It's too late now for widespread changes, but if there are a few significant errors I imagine the developer that created that section of the map could make changes quite quickly. It would be disappointing if the release isn't a good representation of the way it was - partly because it wouldn't have been much more work to get it right than to get it wrong.

[Blackdog_kt]

Awesome!
You had to crosscheck google earth to even notice.

This is game - Not a history sightseeing tour, also they won't use it in history class.


What is wrong with you guys?

I wouldn't really mind that much to be honest, as i don't expect a house for house recreation of Britain in the summer of 1940, just an accurate enough approximation that focuses mostly on terrain outline (rivers, coastlines, elevation data, etc).

However, this is not only about accuracy. If this is true then the developers have spent a lot of time working on urban areas that they could have left out, which is a real pity when they have tried so hard and faced so many delays.

Plus it would also benefit frame rates to have the smaller 1940s-size towns. Who knows, maybe the time already spent on it and the resources needed to run the extra, post war urban areas could have been enough to model a few more airfields to the north for the people who want to fly as 12 Group pilots.

That being said, what's done is done and to be honest i don't worry much because i know the high standards of support and add-on content that comes from this company. This is a long-term project and as the development team have said a lot of times, the real work starts after the release of the first title.

To me that means that while we might not have a 100% accurate map of Britain now, we could have it after a couple of expansions and provided the games sell well enough. If sales are good they could probably assign a few people to correct the mistakes, which in this case consists of deleting items from the map, so it should be much easier than adding to it. Maybe two years in the future we will get a big patch with a new map replacing the current one, featuring smaller towns and a few more kilometers of coverage to the north of the current map, who knows?

Also this:

Talking about the map can't hurt. Afterall Oleg did post the update expecting feedback.

I just feel sorry for the amount of extra work these guys had to put in now that it's obvious they could have skipped it, that's all ;)

[JVM]

The truth is we have no idea what has been done, nor more than what we know about clouds...
So far Oleg showed us mainly FMB features...the only comment he made about the map was about its size (to Foo'bar); It is true that what is shown is a 2000 content map: who says this map served as a basis for the real 3D landscape?

It would not have been that difficult to assemble this 2000 map with easily found internet data, and maybe this is what MG did at first to have an idea of the size to use, and first placement of airfields (which shows some mistakes consistent with the use of modern maps to begin with, like in Arras)...

In other words, maybe this post was about FMB, using an old placeholder map...Why panic and risk saying something stupid?

Be sure Oleg has towns of precise documentation since a while, on the English as well as the French landscapes! Have faith...

JV

[Abbeville-Boy]

The truth is we have no idea what has been done, nor more than what we know about clouds...
So far Oleg showed us mainly FMB features...the only comment he made about the map was about its size (to Foo'bar); It is true that what is shown is a 2000 content map: who says this map served as a basis for the real 3D landscape?

It would not have been that difficult to assemble this 2000 map with easily found internet data, and maybe this is what MG did at first to have an idea of the size to use, and first placement of airfields (which shows some mistakes consistent with the use of modern maps to begin with, like in Arras)...

In other words, maybe this post was about FMB, using an old placeholder map...Why panic and risk saying something stupid?

Be sure Oleg has towns of precise documentation since a while, on the English as well as the French landscapes! Have faith...

JV


+1

i dont think the team would be that foolish to give themselves so much extra work. lets keep the faith here, the map will be reflective of that time in history im betting

[Sutts]

You guys are right. I've been a bit too hasty to judge perhaps. What we see on the zoomed out map doesn't necessarily reflect the 3D world underneath.
I've got so much hope invested in this product that it gets the better of me sometimes.

I'll shut up and wait to see what we get.:grin:

[Tree_UK]

A whole new housing estate as been built in my area since Oleg first announced SOW hopefully this will be on the map. :grin:

[AndyJWest]

A whole new housing estate as been built in my area since Oleg first announced SOW hopefully this will be on the map. :grin:
:I don't suppose you could tell us where you live, Tree? I'll gladly remove all the houses Oleg has put on the map: from 3000m, in a He 111... ;)

[Insuber]

I humbly suggest to refrain from intellectual overload about hypoteses and partial information. It's a game, and few houses or a railway here and there will not alter by much the pleasure of playing it. At least for me.

Again: priority number 1 is to play BoB asap ... small fixes will follow, if necessary.

Cheers,
Insuber

[Chivas]

Its highly doubtful that the development team would have the time and energy to model the towns and cities as large as they were in 1940, let alone later.

[JVM]

I humbly suggest to refrain from intellectual overload about hypoteses and partial information. It's a game, and few houses or a railway here and there will not alter by much the pleasure of playing it. At least for me.

Again: priority number 1 is to play BoB asap ... small fixes will follow, if necessary.

Cheers,
Insuber


This depends a lot what is pleasurable for everybody...This being said, do not underestimate the importance of proper recreation: since 1940-50, railways in France have comparatively evaporated when looking at their present day status: I have studied very closely the harbors involved in BoB on the French side: their dedicated railroad network is not even 10% of what it was, and this is quite true of the general network (especially if you include the extensive 1m gauge network).
It is difficult to imagine now how much everyday life (and military transportation) revolved around railways...

So yes I give a damn about some precisions there (and do not start me on airfields!)
Amically,

JV

[Richie]

:I don't suppose you could tell us where you live, Tree? I'll gladly remove all the houses Oleg has put on the map: from 3000m, in a He 111... ;)


I think Tree is scared to tell us where he lives. :)

[Hecke]

Oleg,

what about something unstatic for tomorrow's update again? ;)

[Richie]

I hope for some engine sounds soon.

[SlipBall]

I think Tree is scared to tell us where he lives. :)


Tree lives at 13 Abbey Road:grin:

[SlipBall]

This depends a lot what is pleasurable for everybody...This being said, do not underestimate the importance of proper recreation: since 1940-50, railways in France have comparatively evaporated when looking at their present day status: I have studied very closely the harbors involved in BoB on the French side: their dedicated railroad network is not even 10% of what it was, and this is quite true of the general network (especially if you include the extensive 1m gauge network).
It is difficult to imagine now how much everyday life (and military transportation) revolved around railways...

So yes I give a damn about some precisions there (and do not start me on airfields!)
Amically,

JV



Extensive rail system would be a big plus

Imagine if we cold lay our own rail tracks in FMB

[Hecke]

Oleg,

I just read that soon coming Ati 6970 will have 2 GB VRAM.
The Nvidia GTX 580 has 1,5 GB but is a little bit faster.
What will be better for BoB? More VRAM or higher GPU Clock?

[Richie]

Tree lives at 13 Abbey Road:grin:

I'll get my K 98 and my scope. :)

[klem]

Oleg,

I just read that soon coming Ati 6970 will have 2 GB VRAM.
The Nvidia GTX 580 has 1,5 GB but is a little bit faster.
What will be better for BoB? More VRAM or higher GPU Clock?

Hecke, a good question.

I know this isn't the place for it (there are at least two other threads running on GPUs and System specs) but you might like to see this....

http://videocardz.com/27861/latest-radeon-hd-6950-and-6970-rumors
6950 competes with GTX 570/480 and is priced similar.
6970 competes with GTX 580 and is priced similar.

and
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18216134
Gibbo: "They are here though. "
and:
"I can't speak for our competitors but we won't be running out and we shall be aiming to be the most competively price on the 6900 cards. "

Looks like AMD may well keep to their revised release date of 25th December.

Of course we won't know the truth until next Wednesday, 15th. From the leaked and general hype I'm expecting the general performance order of play to be :-
6990 dual
580GTX dual
5990 dual
6970 single
480GTX / 6950 (not sure which) singles
5870 single

<switching to the GPU thread>

[Ctrl E]

i would just ask again that it would be great to see some system specs released - please.

also some shots of project galba!

[Tree_UK]

Im sure we will see some system specs as soon as Oleg knows what they are, there is no logical reason to hold them back. Oleg has promised a dedicated website and im certain once this arrives we will start to get more detailed information, some people here think we will see a spring release, I think that all indications at this moment in time suggest a little later than that.

Peace be with you all this christmas.

[Richie]

Same to you this Christmas Tree

[kendo65]

Im sure we will see some system specs as soon as Oleg knows what they are, there is no logical reason to hold them back. Oleg has promised a dedicated website and im certain once this arrives we will start to get more detailed information, some people here think we will see a spring release, I think that all indications at this moment in time suggest a little later than that.

Peace be with you all this christmas.

As someone who was hopeful for a pre-Christmas release, then confident for a Spring release i'm getting a little pissed off at you being proved right all the time ;)

So, then, May or June it is. :)

Happy Christmas to all.

[Chivas]

Im sure we will see some system specs as soon as Oleg knows what they are, there is no logical reason to hold them back. Oleg has promised a dedicated website and im certain once this arrives we will start to get more detailed information, some people here think we will see a spring release, I think that all indications at this moment in time suggest a little later than that.

Peace be with you all this christmas.

Your really getting annoying, always delaying the release of SOW. First you say 2009, then 2010, then 2011, what next 2012? Between you and Oleg its all getting rather depressing. ;)

Best of the holidays.

[WTE_Galway]

Your really getting annoying, always delaying the release of SOW. First you say 2009, then 2010, then 2011, what next 2012? Between you and Oleg its all getting rather depressing. ;)



big release scheduled for 75th anniversary of the Battle :D

[greypeace]

Hi Oleg,
Sorry if I am out of place ,
I am finishing a FFB firmware project and I would like to know if BOB 's FFB handling will be compatible with the Microsoft FFB stick on which my firmware is based.
I am only usig the "Spring" feature , The most important one ...
Thank you

[klem]

............. some people here think we will see a spring release, I think that all indications at this moment in time suggest a little later than that.

Peace be with you all this christmas.

Same to you this Christmas Tree

Your really getting annoying, always delaying the release of SOW. First you say 2009, then 2010, then 2011, what next 2012? Between you and Oleg its all getting rather depressing. ;)

Best of the holidays.

And I thought it was all Oleg's fault !

"Christmas Tree" hehe, boom-boom. You know they get shredded in the new year don't you?

Bah humbug! (now, where's my pressies)

[zapatista]

Looks like all towns got the same treatment. Here's Slough which sits above Windsor with the Thames running inbetween. I've drawn 2 red lines which pretty accurately box in Slough on the period map. One line is drawn from the right edge of Windsor (which hasn't changed much) and the other is taken from the right edge of the big loop in the Thames before it turns north again briefly.

As you can see, the size of Slough is approx. 3 times what it should be in 1940.

I include the same lines on the SoW map and a modern google earth map for comparison.

i think you are making an important point, and it shouldnt be dismissed as "map whining" that might slow down the release of BoB ! (partic since an Xmass release is now obviously not going to happen)

the main reason i see this need to be corrected for, is the frame rate problem. having towns and villages that are 70% to large (compared to real size in 1940), means our poor little pc's need to huff and puff to display all those unnecessary buildings and other ground objects. if the maps being used currently for BoB are so significantly wrong as indicated in these recent posts here, shrinking them down to more correct sizes will make quite a difference in performance in the game overall. i am not concerned at all about some coastal elements (like that harbor section) being incorrect since it wont affect frame rates much and can be corrected later. but having 10.000's of houses that shouldn’t be there all eating frame rates is just a total waste of resources.

resizing the main towns and villages to their more correct sizes should not be a big time consuming job for the programmers either, since "all they need to do" is highlight the offending objects around a town/village and press the delete button. "creating" new towns and villages would be MUCH more time consuming and a waste of manpower, because it takes so much longer. but to argue against deleting objects is a bit silly

when i have to crash land my damaged spitfire in the southern english country side, i'd like to be able to aim for a field that existed in the 1940's, and not land on the m25 motorway or amongst buildings in a recently constructed town and city

[zapatista]

Using the 1940's maps would significantly reduce map objects in urban areas therfore would presumably benefit fps/gameplay, to everyones benefit.

hear hear !!

[zapatista]

Its highly doubtful that the development team would have the time and energy to model the towns and cities as large as they were in 1940, let alone later.

you'r an optimist, but you have a point :)

it is possible the towns we see on the recent oleg map are just the wrong size on the printed map, and that the actual town size "in the game" is the correct historical size.

somehow i doubt it !

even if all the buildings are not modeled, the urban sprawl will probably correspond to map sizes seen in the recent oleg preview maps (otherwise it would be hard to do VFR navigation by the game maps compared to the "in game" world we fly around in).

[janpitor]

The in game maps can be placeholders for now. I dont think there are too large towns after seeing olegs huge passion for details and precission

[CrazySchmidt]

Looking forward to everything, expecting nothing.

My philosophy on life.

Cheers, CS. :D

[[URU]AkeR]

Maybe the towns are right size, but the rest of the land is smaller? I mean if map is not 1:1 scale, then towns would be reduced too much in size to a point it doesn´t resemble the original town. Or if you keep the original town map in small scale you would have small toy houses.

[Sutts]

AkeR;203518']Maybe the towns are right size, but the rest of the land is smaller? I mean if map is not 1:1 scale, then towns would be reduced too much in size to a point it doesn´t resemble the original town. Or if you keep the original town map in small scale you would have small toy houses.

I believe Oleg has confirmed that the map is 1:1 scale. It is the shape of the towns that is wrong - showing evidence of post war expansion. They haven't just been scaled up.

[[URU]AkeR]

I believe Oleg has confirmed that the map is 1:1 scale. It is the shape of the towns that is wrong - showing evidence of post war expansion. They haven't just been scaled up.Thank you for the reply Sutts, its hard to follow ALL the posts :grin:

[Hecke]

Hecke, a good question.

I know this isn't the place for it (there are at least two other threads running on GPUs and System specs) but you might like to see this....

http://videocardz.com/27861/latest-radeon-hd-6950-and-6970-rumors
6950 competes with GTX 570/480 and is priced similar.
6970 competes with GTX 580 and is priced similar.

and
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18216134
Gibbo: "They are here though. "
and:
"I can't speak for our competitors but we won't be running out and we shall be aiming to be the most competively price on the 6900 cards. "

Looks like AMD may well keep to their revised release date of 25th December.

Of course we won't know the truth until next Wednesday, 15th. From the leaked and general hype I'm expecting the general performance order of play to be :-
6990 dual
580GTX dual
5990 dual
6970 single
480GTX / 6950 (not sure which) singles
5870 single

<switching to the GPU thread>

Thank you for these links. What would you go for? I never had ATI but this time I would maybe go for them because I think that more VRAM could make a bigger difference due to the fact that the textures in BoB have high resolution.

[satchenko]

No update today ? :(

[Wutz]

No update today ? :(
Nope no up date for you, for the rest that can read there was.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/aetsch.gifhttp://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/244.gif

[satchenko]

Nope no up date for you, for the rest that can read there was.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/aetsch.gifhttp://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/244.gif

Sorry, my english is not good.
I dont see update today....

[PilotError]

Sorry, my english is not good.
I dont see update today....

It's not been made a "sticky" yet, so it is half way down the page.

If you still can't see it, here is the link;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17629

[satchenko]

Thanks!!!!! :D

[klem]

Thank you for these links. What would you go for? I never had ATI but this time I would maybe go for them because I think that more VRAM could make a bigger difference due to the fact that the textures in BoB have high resolution.

If I can afford it, the 6970 for its performance over the 6950. If there is a choice between 1Gb and 2Gb then I might be tempted to go 6950 2Gb because I am guessing a 6970 2Gb might be up there near the 580GTX price, currently costing £400-500, which is beyond my budget. That's really the point, I could twist my own arm to spend £350 and the 68xx's were much cheaper to manufacture than the 58xx's bang for bang. AMD have made a lot of the 69xx performance and placed the 6950 just above the 5870 and the 6970 below the 5890 (ok the sheets were leaked). The 5870 is currently around £300-£350 on scan.co.uk. If the 6950 technology is cheaper but I'm getting more performance I'd expect it to hit around the same price, possibly a little less. if the 6970 price should happen to drop in near that I might twist my arm a little harder! (but not for a 580GTX)

The 5890 and 6990 are both dual cards and beyond my wallet.

[Flying_Nutcase]

Looking forward to everything, expecting nothing.

My philosophy on life.

Cheers, CS. :D

Now there's a 'secret' of happiness. :-)

[klem]

Looking forward to everything, expecting nothing.

My philosophy on life.

Cheers, CS. :D

Hey CS, here's a dollar. (It's wooden btw)

[greypeace]

Nope no up date for you, for the rest that can read there was.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/aetsch.gifhttp://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/244.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by satchenko
No update today ?

Nope no up date for you, for the rest that can read there was.


Sarcasm is out of place here,constructive help IS the spirit
Not everyboby is as "clever" as you

[greypeace]

It's not been made a "sticky" yet, so it is half way down the page.

If you still can't see it, here is the link;

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17629
The Helpfull spirit instead of the sarcasm

Tank you PilotError,Best wishes for the Hollidays

gb

[Osprey]

I am English, I now live on the South Coast near to Brighton. I was born in SE London under what had been the V1/V2 alley and 300 yds from a major triple railway junction that got plastered several times. I played on bombsites and have got p*ssed in Croydon.
.

I hope you support Palace :cool:


So much for answering questions though. I don't expect Oleg to answer the questions posted but I would expect if he says he's going to. Disappointed.

[klem]

I hope you support Palace :cool:


So much for answering questions though. I don't expect Oleg to answer the questions posted but I would expect if he says he's going to. Disappointed.

I used to watch Palace occasionally but tbh football's never been big with me. I did once make the mistake of watching Millwall at home play Middlesborough. There weren't too many fights but by the time the p*sshead behind me on the terrace had spent 90 minutes shouting "c'mon the 'burrar " I had more 'product' in my hair than Jedward. ecchhhhhh!

Oleg finally answered the 'Map' questions here:-

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17629&page=5

[Osprey]

LOL! I'm an eagle too :) I thought there was always the chance that you didn't like the game but at least you've been and you recognise your area :D Last time i saw Dillwall they were ripping the seats out of the Arthur Wait to throw at us. I haven't been for a while but I did have a season ticket for several years at one time.

It would have been nice to actually get some response to the many questions asked on this update but there's virtually nothing.

[klem]

LOL! I'm an eagle too :) I thought there was always the chance that you didn't like the game but at least you've been and you recognise your area :D Last time i saw Dillwall they were ripping the seats out of the Arthur Wait to throw at us. I haven't been for a while but I did have a season ticket for several years at one time.

It would have been nice to actually get some response to the many questions asked on this update but there's virtually nothing.

See, this is where I REALLY look ignorant. Do you know how many returns I get from google for "Football Eagles"? I don't remember a team being called the Eagles back then but it was a long long time ago. I was more into Air Cadets, shooting, flying, motorbikes, early marriage, not early enough divorce, golf, new marriage, kids, no golf, overdrafts, virtual online combat, a generous sprinkling of career along the way and a few pubs. :)

[Osprey]

Ahhh! You would only know Palace as The Glaziers then. the name changed in about 1972. Still, you have other interests, that's fair enough. :)

[zapatista]

Ahhh! You would only know Palace as The Glaziers then. the name changed in about 1972. Still, you have other interests, that's fair enough. :)

Osprey,

the offtopic useless banter in the last few pages of this thread is a perfect example for the need of heavier handed moderation (and possibly thread locking)

one moment you complain the moderation is to heavy, and the next your the worst offender

[zapatista]

I'm inviting in discussion all who knows Il-2 FMB. That to make comparison.

oleg,

will there be new forward airbases created on the maps as the front lines move ? (as was the case in real life). or will allied/enemy airbase locations on BoB/Sow stay fixed ?

this is less of an issue with BoB, since frontlines wont move, but is an issue for other large player maps that come with the BoB release. i hope some "spontaneous" new forward airbases get created by the dynamic campaign server if the frontline moves for more then 20 km for example

[Poltava]

Arriving a bit late to the party here's my two cents:

I think that the decision to keep much of the old FMB GUI and structure is GREAT! :)

Quoting TUSA: "One of the wisest descisions ever made in Flight Sim history was keeping the format of the Il2 mission builder. I'm so glad to finally see the SOW version, and even more happy to see the the many additions, improvments and integration with SOW capabilities. With the largest base of Combat Flight Sim mission builders in the world - it would have been a waste to change the basic struture of the FMB." Hear, hear!

I have been using the FMB for 5 years, building nearly 70 campaigns and some 650+ missions, and this is a list of things I would love to see:

1.) A "Load last mission"-option
2.) Copy Group of Objects / Save / Rotate /Place
3.) Filter objects / aircraft by different categories
4.) Ablility to add a jpeg to mission
5.) Select skin for entire group

Another thing that I REALLY would like to see is the capability of simple BRANCHING in campaigns, e.g. if you FAIL a in mission A you are directed to mission B, if you succeed you are directed to mission C. (And I hope that the current capacity to randomize mission picks in campaigns are kept.)

Also I second the suggestion to do a beta release of limited version of SOW to a few competent mission builder enthusiasts. I think this would give you very competent feed-back plus it will most certainly mean that SOW will have extra missions and campaigns in no-time!

Thanks for the peek, Oleg. It really looks like SOW will be worth the wait. :grin:

[klem]

Osprey,

the offtopic useless banter in the last few pages of this thread is a perfect example for the need of heavier handed moderation (and possibly thread locking)

one moment you complain the moderation is to heavy, and the next your the worst offender

zapatista, in our defence (I was OT too) I would just say this came more than a week after the topic started, the new Friday topic had begun and as far as I can tell no responses or interest was being shown by Oleg for many pages/days. It had also become clear that OT posts had almost become the norm late in the thread.

Frankly I don't think any posts made this late in this thread will even be looked at but it's hard to tell as we get no feedback on many questions asked, it's only as Oleg feels and the rest are left to hang in the air. I admire Oleg for what he is doing but many people posting questions or views have no idea if they have even been read by him.

Having said that I will be joining nearmisses's latest drive to get us to stay OT.

[Pursuivant]

Perhaps not for SoW, but there are six things I'd really love to see in a combat flight sim, if only to shut up the endless "chart wars" about aircraft performance:

1) Ability to "create your own ammo belts" using different types of ammo, e.g., just ball ammo (preferred by a few units) or different mixes of ball, tracer and armor-piercing, depending on mission and expected opposition, as well as personal preference.

2) Ability to downgrade aircraft performance to simulate damaged/worn out/badly maintained aircraft. Possibly the ability to slightly upgrade aircraft performance as well, to simulate "hot-rodded" aircraft.

3) Ability to choose different fuel types for certain aircraft based on historical availability.

4) Ability to introduce random mechanical failures. Certain aircraft were plagued by mechanical problems.

5) Degradation of airframe strength, engine performance, etc. over time. Possibly affected by environment, available maintenance facilities and available manpower.

6) The ability to start a mission with a damaged plane or one which has suffered a mechanical failure.

[alado]

guaaaaaaaaauuuuu nice map, biggest, London and Paris, thanks

[Xilon_x]

map of south ITALY
map of north ITALY important alps ITALY-FRANCE
map of mediterrain TUNISIA SICILY AND malta
map of greece and balcans
map cipro and ejipt
map gibilterra and ibiza and south spain
map of belgium and south england
map of south france and corsica and sardegna
map of U.S.A. area of new york coast
map of U.S.A. area of califonia for a japanese surprise attak
map of north japan and tokio.
Especial MAP of south pole ANTARTICA.
ESPECIAL map of atlantic OCEAN to north england.
and map of north germany and finland
ESPECIAL map for race and aereobatic team GRAND CANION or RENO or Schneider race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Trophy

[Avimimus]

map of south ITALY
map of north ITALY important alps ITALY-FRANCE
map of mediterrain TUNISIA SICILY AND malta
map of greece and balcans
map cipro and ejipt
map gibilterra and ibiza and south spain
map of belgium and south england
map of south france and corsica and sardegna
map of U.S.A. area of new york coast
map of U.S.A. area of califonia for a japanese surprise attak
map of north japan and tokio.
Especial MAP of south pole ANTARTICA.
ESPECIAL map of atlantic OCEAN to north england.
and map of north germany and finland
ESPECIAL map for race and aereobatic team GRAND CANION or RENO or Schneider race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Trophy

It made me laugh. It seems absurd at first - but some of this stuff would be quite cool "Especial MAP of south pole ANTARTICA." (with the mountains of madness, of course)

[swiss]

Especial MAP of south pole ANTARTICA.

And Nazi Ufos!!!

But Alps, south France, Sicily - why not.
Lot of work and therefore expensive...

[1.JaVA_Sjonnie]

I find the screenies very reassuring in a way.

There are many similarities with today's FMB in IL-2, expanded with just the things I've been waiting for.

I just wonder whether I will have enough time between the release of CofD and the event I make missions for.
That would be the LLTM and this year it will be held from april 8th through april 10th.
That gives me 2 weeks to build something for this bunch of very critical users.
If you want to see how big this LAN event is, check the gallery (in the "about" menu):

http://www.lowlandtigermeet.com/