In SOW please don't log the gunner position change because people tend to cheat.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

In SOW please don't log the gunner position change because people tend to cheat

using it to track down the bombers taking alternate course to avoid the allied fighters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For IL2 the problem was solved in 30 seconds yesterday while players, especially Red have cheated for 10 years ....


ThaNKS! for your time.

Best regards

[T}{OR]

What gunner position change? And using it as a cheat?

Excuse me saying... but what are you talking about?? :confused:

[JG53Harti]

in IL2 there was a log file entry, if you changed your position to a gunner so cheater could read the logfile and were able to read the position where your plane is. Some "nice" cheater used this to find your position and were able to change tactics to find and kill you ;)

[II/JG54_Emil]

@T}{OR:
How would one address the exploit of a bug, that can be used as a cheat, in a public forum, when you don´t want anyone to exploit it?

In SOW please don't log the gunner position change because people tend to cheat

using it to track down the bombers taking alternate course to avoid the allied fighters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For IL2 the problem was solved in 30 seconds yesterday while players, especially Red have cheated for 10 years ....


ThaNKS! for your time.

Best regards

I won´t go with the second statement Gaga!

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Now you know Thor ....

We have suffered this for 10 years ....

Enough is enough ...

[II/JG54_Emil]

in IL2 there was a log file entry, if you changed your position to a gunner so cheater could read the logfile and were able to read the position where your plane is. Some "nice" cheater used this to find your position and were able to change tactics to find and kill you ;)

Now it´s out. :(

[KG26_Alpha]

It the reason I wont fly He111 or Ju88 in online wars anymore, ( infact I don't fly them full stop).
Pilot
Switches to bombsite or gunner>
Logfile output co-ordinates>
Cheater reads co-ordinates>
Heads to bombers>

Bombers dead no matter what part of the map.

Nothing new its been going on for years.

[II/JG54_Emil]

Nothing new its been going on for years.

Hm, I heard of it only yesterday.:oops:

[T}{OR]

First I ever heard of...

So what you're saying that when a bomber pilot switches to a gunner's or bombardier's position the action gets logged on the server and someone can access this information? Provided that the information contains the data about the location of the plane as well. And that anyone, even not server admins can do this?

And more importantly - why can 'only reds' use this?


EDIT: Until now, the biggest problem for me was the list of planes and pilots that fly them which showed planes from both sides. That way you always knew if the opposing side was attacking and who shot down which type of plane.

[II/JG54_Emil]

Red statement is nonsense.
Everybody can do it.

The problem is it´s not serversided.
You have it logged in your eventlog when I switch gunner-positions, simple as that.

[T}{OR]

Red statement is nonsense.
Everybody can do it.

The problem is it´s not serversided.
You have it logged in your eventlog when I switch gunner-positions, simple as that.

Really? I don't have IL2 installed anymore to test but this is interesting...

Can this not be deactivated from the dedicated server software side?


EDIT: How was the problem 'solved' if I may ask?

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Hm, I heard of it only yesterday.:oops:

Emil you just admited, you just found out.

Did you participate in

VEF1 (2002) or
VEF2,
VWF,
Chechz War,
CAD,
IL2 W,
IL2 Staligrand-N.I -Smolensk,
E.I.F.,
VW,
Airforce War,
Airforce War II,
IL2 WAR MEDITERRANEAN BATTLES ?

Cos i have ... and i know first hand.

Blue side doesn't have to cheat - we play a rigged game and we know it!

ThaNKS! for your time

Best Regards

[II/JG54_Emil]

Be it as it may.

I understand your perspective.

But saying mainly are exploiting this cheat is unprovable, I guess.

[Former_Older]

People who 'fly red' are cheaters while people who 'fly blue' would never do that, eh?

But even I know the technical issue exists. Wasn't this just recently (like last week!) discovered to be preventable by changing what the logfile records, Gaga? It can be set up to make the entry it wants to make but without the co-ords? This means sure, the cheater may see that you changed seats but not where you changed seats?

Or even display a custom message instead of co-ords? Like "Hi cheater"

I thought I read this over the weekend

[BLR_Tonin_fr]

Blue side doesn't have to cheat - we play a rigged game and we know it!


ok I fly 50% red 50% blue...

Am I only one half of a cheater ?

Geeez !

[AndyJWest]

A ridiculous way to address a problem, even if it actually existed. A clear attempt to whine about IL-2 rather than comment on what SoW should do. If you have to resort to this sort of thing to complain about 'cheaters' and the game being 'rigged', I'd say you have a pretty poor case.

Total Nonsense.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Extremly competitive behavior + online team gaming = some of the most pathetic acts an human being can do.

It's impossible to prevent cheating. The only way is game/fly with normal people, who flies to have fun, not win some "important contest"...

All games have this. The problem isn't the exploits in game, it's the human nature: some of us are just plain stupid.

[fruitbat]

A ridiculous way to address a problem,

Total Nonsense.

you should know.

[KG26_Alpha]

A ridiculous way to address a problem, even if it actually existed. A clear attempt to whine about IL-2 rather than comment on what SoW should do. If you have to resort to this sort of thing to complain about 'cheaters' and the game being 'rigged', I'd say you have a pretty poor case.

Total Nonsense.

What's been nonsense for 10 years exactly.

The fact you can see a pilot move from seat to seat in the log file output and place the co-ordinates on the map you are flying to see where they are in the mission.

Or something else ?

In a Gagaesque way he's asking to plug the hole, and also threw in some conspiracy theory too simply troll at you.

[Former_Older]

What's been nonsense for 10 years exactly.

The fact you can see a pilot move from seat to seat in the log file output and place the co-ordinates on the map you are flying to see where they are in the mission.

Or something else ?

In a Gagaesque way he's asking to plug the hole, and also threw in some conspiracy theory too simply troll at you.

Hi :)

Gaga's trolling adds nothing to the issue. let's agree to recognize that two issues are at hand:

1) gaga's blue vs red stance
2) cheating by using an exploit

There's two separate issues. While I believe that gaga brings up a valid 'cheating by exploit' issue, his red vs blue rhetoric is silly

[swiss]

ok I fly 50% red 50% blue...

Am I only one half of a cheater ?

Geeez !


No, you're just a 'ho with no self esteem.

No offence of course. :)

[II/JG54_Emil]

Hi :)

Gaga's trolling adds nothing to the issue. let's agree to recognize that two issues are at hand:

1) gaga's blue vs red stance
2) cheating by using an exploit

There's two separate issues. While I believe that gaga brings up a valid 'cheating by exploit' issue, his red vs blue rhetoric is silly


If we all agree, let´s continue the discussion with number 2.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Hi :)

Gaga's trolling adds nothing to the issue. let's agree to recognize that two issues are at hand:

1) gaga's blue vs red stance
2) cheating by using an exploit

There's two separate issues. While I believe that gaga brings up a valid 'cheating by exploit' issue, his red vs blue rhetoric is silly


You can't be in my shoes co's you haven't invested (so to speak), at least that's my

assessment co's i've have never encountered your callsign in any On-line war, the hours i

have logged ( free willingly cos i love IL2) in this community.


If you have suffered this injustice which is without limits

ranging from allied biased stock game "bugs" to the setup of the on-line wars

where you really lose it when you realize that the Reds running the competition

use later chronology tanks to attack & defend than the one running at the time.


Furthermore and before the new era of IL2 we had to attack in late 44 with Stukas

because for no apparent reason the IL2 artists forgot to give the blue side early or late

models (only 110 G2) of schnellbombers .... but we had to have all Pe2 models didn't we!


Closing yes all the people / Squads that have been banned for creating & using cheats

are red players (i don't know if you know / remember [b]speed hack[/]) that are notorious

within the IL2 community for their activities.

I will not point a finger .. ask someone you know who is experienced in these matters.

No offence but i know what i'm talking about.


And yes it is not the main point but a point none the less & a fact.

Best regards

[BadAim]

You can't be in my shoes co's you haven't invested (so to speak), at least that's my

assessment co's i've have never encountered your callsign in any On-line war, the hours i

have logged ( free willingly cos i love IL2) in this community.


If you have suffered this injustice which is without limits

ranging from allied biased stock game "bugs" to the setup of the on-line wars

where you really lose it when you realize that the Reds running the competition

use later chronology tanks to attack & defend than the one running at the time.


Furthermore and before the new era of IL2 we had to attack in late 44 with Stukas

because for no apparent reason the IL2 artists forgot to give the blue side early or late

models (only 110 G2) of schnellbombers .... but we had to have all Pe2 models didn't we!


Closing yes all the people / Squads that have been banned for creating & using cheats

are red players (i don't know if you know / remember [b]speed hack[/]) that are notorious

within the IL2 community for their activities.

I will not point a finger .. ask someone you know who is experienced in these matters.

No offence but i know what i'm talking about.


And yes it is not the main point but a point none the less & a fact.

Best regards

I've been flying mostly blue since the day the original IL2 came out and I am of the opinion that the above is nonsense, especially the last line. You have offended every player that ever flies red with your broad brush insults, and this blue flyer as well. As far as your elitist assertions of your expertise, they pretty much get buried by your sniveling.

[Novotny]

My pride for this forum swells again. Unless someone can post an easy fix for these possibilities, I say locky locky for the meantime. Or split it into two threads: one for discussion of fixing exploit that is now out in the wild, and therefore must be discussed, and one for whining about red or blue.

[Former_Older]

You can't be in my shoes co's you haven't invested (so to speak), at least that's my

assessment co's i've have never encountered your callsign in any On-line war, the hours i

have logged ( free willingly cos i love IL2) in this community.


If you have suffered this injustice which is without limits

ranging from allied biased stock game "bugs" to the setup of the on-line wars

where you really lose it when you realize that the Reds running the competition

use later chronology tanks to attack & defend than the one running at the time.


Furthermore and before the new era of IL2 we had to attack in late 44 with Stukas

because for no apparent reason the IL2 artists forgot to give the blue side early or late

models (only 110 G2) of schnellbombers .... but we had to have all Pe2 models didn't we!


Closing yes all the people / Squads that have been banned for creating & using cheats

are red players (i don't know if you know / remember [b]speed hack[/]) that are notorious

within the IL2 community for their activities.

I will not point a finger .. ask someone you know who is experienced in these matters.

No offence but i know what i'm talking about.


And yes it is not the main point but a point none the less & a fact.

Best regards

Let me explain something to you

I don't give one dead rat anus if you recognize my 'callsign' or not. Let us please understand this very perfectly.

I am a 39 year old man who doesn't care what online fit you pitch

You are 100% correct that this exploit needs to be taken care of

The rest is pure, unvarnished, biased opinion so stop tossing a tantrum and get on with your laudable efforts to correct the exploit.

[Former_Older]

If we all agree, let´s continue the discussion with number 2.

I certainly do agree

I believe that I read about the cure for this on a modding forum. I'm not 100% that it's OK to post a link to the discussion though

edit-

Found it. It was started by Gaga and he knows a mod can fix this in Il2

However he makes valid points about this issue for SOW in this thread

[KG26_Alpha]

Again

Its a bug

Reported to 1C years ago

It was never fixed

Will DT fix it ?

Probably not

SoW cheat free ?

Not likely but we can remain hopeful.

With CRT=2 bypass available even stock servers are not 100% what you think they might be.

I know there are a lot out there that will just bury their heads in the sand regarding cheats and hacks but they have been around since the beginning.

Oleg plugged the sound hack then there was the speed hack then the "radar" and some strange Russian squad disconnect instant pilot kill thing that went on at one time :)
We will never be free of cheats but don't kid yourselves that they don't exist.

[Former_Older]

I think that's a good point Alpha- 100% cheat or exploit free is a tall order

[Novotny]

Forgive me, but it's not a bug. It's an exploit. And perhaps there have been higher priorities, but that's speculation. This thread could really do with less opinion and absolutely no speculation, frankly.

Is there a fix or band-aid possible? Any other sorts of posts won't really help. neither does mine probably.

[Former_Older]

Agree 100% this is an exploit; I've labeled it so several times :)

What makes me curious is that apparently, this has to do with the logfile the mission creates being read. When the gunner pos. is chnaged, co-ords are written to the log- so my curiosity lies in- why does the sim care at what X,Y pos a plane had a gunner seat pos. change? Unless it has something to do with autopilot

[Novotny]

Well, I'd imagine a simple answer would be that there was a good reason to output the info, otherwise the info would not be output. What the reason is - is another question!

Edit:: I'm just rephrasing, aren't I? Sorry. At least I wasn't bitching.

[Warhound]

Guess this explains how certain pilots always seem to find medium and heavy bombers regardless of what height or path you fly...good to know.

Glad it's out in the open and being discussed, the people who say that is a bad thing are either very naive or very very guilty. :rolleyes:

[IceFire]

Wow this went hilarious quickly...

First, I think the first time I heard about this was in 2003. I didn't realize that the issue still persisted but it has been around for a very long time.

Secondly, this is an exploit of a way that the server/client interaction works between players online. It's not a bug as it would not come up in normal play. Only through exploiting the logging code can you make effective use of this.

Third, although I can understand that this is a long standing issue (frankly I thought it was fixed) this is clearly not the best way to communicate this problem. The initial post was extremely negative, light on details, and as a bonus it even included a vague attack against anyone who "flies red". There's a dozen different ways that this issue could have been brought to light (again) but unfortunately it's been done in nearly the worst way possible. I'm not sure what the intention is exactly but if the idea is to get the developers to pay any attention then maybe a little bit of diplomacy is in order.

[Friendly_flyer]

If there's a mod that closes the hole, could it perhaps be brought to the attention of Team Daidalos?

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Guess this explains how certain pilots always seem to find medium and heavy bombers regardless of what height or path you fly...good to know.

Glad it's out in the open and being discussed, the people who say that is a bad thing are either very naive or very very guilty. :rolleyes:

there you go ......

[Flanker35M]

S!

Naming anyone or blaming just one side for cheating is useless. The bugs and exploits are there and are being used by anyone who wishes to do so, no matter what. First time I encountered the logfile exploit was years ago in VEF online war. The squad using it was baited, fell for it and kicked. They now operate under other name but same faces are there and their ways have not changed. Solution: not flying ANY servers with them there nor taking part in online wars..even those are really immersive. And CRT=2 is helpless against the exploits or bugs.

I play other games too online and there we call them "statistic hoes"..people that do anything to have great looking stats. You can imagine how fun it is to see them whine when ganked so their stats collapse ;) For me a game is a game and I have no need to cheat whatsoever. And the squad I fly with is known for fair play..but using one of the oldest cheats in gaming history: team work :D

[SlipBall]

Come on guy's, just jump to a gun and shoot them down.:grin:

[phoenix1963]

More seriously than the initial post, there is a real need, in SoW, to encrypt any positional (& other) information: in the log file (as discussed), in any track file (potential for reading it on-the-fly), and in the gaming packets themselves.
I just hope this can be done, as encryption (even if it's light) adds significant overheads, particularly to the gaming packets. I hope that the client can be designed to negotiate a light encryption key with the server that will be used only for that session, making it too short-lived to bother cracking.

56RAF_phoenix

[Ltbear]

this is why i fly with old freinds and stay away from many online wars now. I game have come down to trust, and trust is not easy earned online.

We will keep our private campaigns running, inviting few that have the same goals as us.

Its sad, but its how we deal with it. Server running by ip postet on our ventrilo...

LTbear

[zaelu]

This is a very old exploit... as IceFire said it. People that are now so taken by surprise are funny :) .

The solutions are:

Fly with grown ups
Take altitude inside your territory before you take the "unknown/unpredicted" route
DON'T SWITCH TO GUNNERS or BOMBARDIER till last moments before bombing or when attacked

I am still curious how a mod is plugging the hole.

maybe a mod or patch will plug another hole... trimming in black-out. There is a plug by Maddox to it (the delay trim) now but coupled with reversal bug in G940 HOTAS it is a really pain in the back.

[LoBiSoMeM]

maybe a mod or patch will plug another hole... trimming in black-out.

We have flaps and rudder in black-out too. Really strange!

[KG26_Alpha]

I think we can forget IL2 1946 being Exploit free regarding the log file unless DT are going to help out.

More to the OP's post to make sure its not possible in SoW .

Exploit/bug
Bug/exploit
or
Feature ?

Whatever you want to call it it needs stomping on.