wich one? saitek x52 or x52pro

[albx]

I need help wich one should I buy. Is worth 30 euro more the x52pro or are basically the same thing? I have read about the display with more functions (i don't need it), and the double spring on the stick... but what is bothering me if it is worth the higher price or I can just go and buy the basic x52 and be happy?

thank you very much

Alberto

[TeeJay82]

Never tried the regular... but i highly recommend the pro

[II/JG54_Emil]

I never tried the Pro but the regular sucks big time.

Best ever is Microsoft Sidewinder 2 Force Feedback.
Problem is there is no soft- or hardware support.

Expensive but very, very, very good is the Logitec G940 flight sytem!

[W32Blaster]

replace very very very

with

-- -- -- G940 has a sginifcant Problem concerning cabeling within the Throttel.
After quite short time the Cabel for the buttons and axis on the Throttel wears out and produces random values.
That is pretty annoying! Amazon has taken G940 out of delivery in Germany.
I myself have had that problem 2 times and got 2 complete replacements by amazon.
Now warranty time is over and as soon the cable wears out again, I will replace it with a somewhat higher quality cabeling.

Beside that point G940 would be my choice, despite the price. That is since the G940 is the only system with forcefeedback an HOTAS with seperate rudder.

[T}{OR]

Expensive but very, very, very good is the Logitec G940 flight sytem!

With the 'reversal' bug??? I don't think so. Stay miles away from it.

A shame really, as Logitech could have had the best overall fight system if not for the many errors plaguing it.

[W32Blaster]

I never heard of that bug, Thor.

Could you please tell details?

[Artist]

Expensive but very, very, very good is the Logitec G940 flight sytem!

Caution: I own a G940 and, yes it is great... but: There's something called "reversal bug", which Logitech is working on, but hasn't resolved yet. If they fail to resolve it, the G940 is absolutely unfit for serious flight simming: You won't be able to aim properly and you won't be able to keep in close formation.

But: They are working on it. Check this Logitech forum thread (http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-quot-reversal-bug-quot-is-it-a-hardware-or-software-problem/td-p/445318?nobounce) before buying it.

[Artist]

Never have been so many so faster than me in so short a time...

Reversal Bug: You move an axis (throttle, proppitch, aileron, rudder, etc.) slowly to one side: 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%. The you carfully reverse your movement. You would expect to go back to 4%. It doesn't: It jumps to 2%. The G940 does that on all axis.

Check this Logitech forum thread (http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-quot-reversal-bug-quot-is-it-a-hardware-or-software-problem/td-p/445318?nobounce) for further details.

This is really going off topic.

[T}{OR]

I forgot about the cabling bug, thanks W32Blaster. This is 'reversal' bug explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwyBM7PXEo

Unless you can get your hands on MSFF2, I would recommend getting T.16000M from Thrustmaster. It features the same Hali magnetic sensors like in the much more expensive Warthog HOTAS.

From various other sources I would recommend that you stay away from Saitek. Their build quality is questionable.


If you can afford it go with the Warthog HOTAS, I know I intend to. Reviews at SimHQ:

PART 1 (http://www.simhq.com/_technology3/technology_174a.html) & PART 2 (http://www.simhq.com/_technology3/technology_200a.html)

PS: You will need a set of pedals to go with the Warthog as well.

[II/JG54_Emil]

Never realized there was such a bug.

I like the G940 anyway its is design isvery consistent.

[albx]

well, thank you guys... but the g940 and the Warthog HOTAS are out of my budget.. my wife will kill me :D, i didn't want spend too much, so for a hotas i was more oriented for a x52, right now i have a thrustmaster Flight Hotas X, so i don't know if the saitek is a big step ahead or will be almost the same.

[swiss]

I need help wich one should I buy. Is worth 30 euro more the x52pro or are basically the same thing? I have read about the display with more functions (i don't need it), and the double spring on the stick... but what is bothering me if it is worth the higher price or I can just go and buy the basic x52 and be happy?

thank you very much

Alberto

The X52 has two advantages:

- Real Hotas
- crapload of buttons and two trim wheels

actually it's fair priced too.


The bad:
- decentering is not necessarily caused by worn cables, but also often by the cable connection in the Joystick socket, tends to get loose..

- dead center: Not really a problem, there a tiny hardware mod to resolve this

- life expectancy: 12-18 months heavy use(mine has about 1000hrs. on it)


Would I buy it again?
If $100 is all I wanted/have to invest: Yes, anytime.
Hotas and all the buttons are worth every cent of it - you'll never have to take your hands from the hotas again.
Real HOTAS is a must.

Pro vs. normal:
They are the same, although they mention something about having different sensors, if you open them, on the inside they look identical.
It's probably an esthetical thing...


Warthog:
Unfortunately it lacks FFB, everybody I talked said it's great to have, so no Warthog for me.

X65: Non moving stick? Uh - no.

Now Logitech, please fix this reversal bug if it still exists.:-)


Edit: I had the Hotas-X too - for about 24hrs, then I returned it.
The x52 is a huge step, do it.
And mod it.
(Keep the removed parts in case you have to send it back for warranty, it's unlikely they open it, but you never know)

[PilotError]

Hi,

I had an X52 which I really liked.

I managed to get an X52 pro at a bargain price on eBay, and I have to say that it is worth paying that bit extra.

As far as buttons and axis go the X52 and the pro have the same number and functions on the stick and throttle, although the pro has a few more with the MFD.

The big difference I found was the joystick.
The extra spring gives it a better "feel", but the main difference is that it is more precise and responsive.

So I would recommend the pro over the standard X52.

[swiss]

The question is: Is that spring worth $30-40?

Also there's a tradeoff: The spring increases friction, unfortunately there is plastic "gliding" on plastic...

just a thought.

[PilotError]

The question is: Is that spring worth $30-40?

The spring isn't worth the extra money, but the pro is.

Just to clarify, the extra spring on the pro gives the stick a better feel, but that is not what makes it more responsive.
If I remember correctly the pro is supposed to have twice as many sensors (or possibly sensors twice as good ?).
When I changed from the standard X52 to the pro I found it was much easier to control an aircraft with just small movements of the stick, especially near the center.
I definitely found it easier to keep the crosshairs on an enemy plane using the pro.:grin:

So, yes, the pro is worth the extra cost IMHO.

[tityus]

As we all know, there are many Hotas on the market and all have pros, cons, and specially flaws. Considering all that, since the choice is X52 vs X52 Pro, I'd go for X52.

I have no interest in the programmable display and, having tried both, I don't think the pro has a significant advantage over the X52to justify the extra buck.

IMO, X52is more cost effective - specially if one does not need the new lcd functions.

té mais
tityus

[Chivas]

The X52 was useless if you wanted to hit your target quickly. IF the X52 Pro fixed the huge deadzone issue then it may be a viable option. I also don't particularly like the programming software. Personally I wouldn't tough another one with a ten foot pole.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good joystick since the MSFF2. Although the new Thrustmaster Warthog Hotas appears to have the qualities of a very good stick without force feedback. I will probably buy one soon, hopefully it won't join my Saitek X52, CH Fighterstick, Logitech G940, and Thrustmaster Cougar gathering dust in the basement.

[Sven]

I heard from a person in my flight unit that he wanted to throw the X52 out of the window because the sensors were not responding right ( laggy controls in IL2 and RoF) and when he took it apart, there was some dust in there, he cleaned it, but that didnt work, so he used WD40 and that worked, till a few weeks later when the same thing happened, now the question is does he have a house full of dust or is the X52 not well designed to keep dust out ( at least away from vital areas) , note his X52 was not very old.

Not relevant to your request but I use the G940, before that bug was announced I never noticed it, but I wanted to test it out for myself and then indeed noticed the error in the axis, someone said earlier in this thread that flying with it was impossible and not to keep in formation or extreme flying, utter bullcrap of course, I've never had any problems getting to a specific power percentage so formation flying is not an issue. Extreme flying? Pilot skills mostly, maybe someone who has profit going from 78 % to 77 in a nano second might be annoyed by the error. I don't want to show off here, but in the last online campaign I played I had the highest tally of enemy fighters shot down versus a low death rate, so flying with the G940 is at least if not more able to get yourself a good result in IL2 then say a X52.

I can understand that some might see me as a 'fanboy' ( which is actually true because I'm a fan of my G940) but in a negative way, I tried to make clear that the reversal bug is not a strong drawback of the G940 in IL2.

[SEE]

I have both - the X52 Pro has double the Hall sensors for X -Y axis. The standard X52 has better rotary sliders and seem to be far easier to grip and rotate but overall the Pro is a better stick and available at reasonable prices if you shop around. The spring tension is very light on the X52 Pro (despite having dual springs) and some find it feels 'sloppy'. Mouse drift is a problem with my standard X52 but both these sticks are hand soldered point to point wiring and I have had to dismantle the X52 and resolder many of the joints in the throttle assy which were ''dry" or not even soldered! Dismantling one of these is not for the faint hearted....:grin:

BTW, s/h X45's can be picked up for peanuts (mine has lasted for years) and could be well worth picking up as a back up but these have a paddle rudder if you are used to a twist type (which is what you will get with the X52 types).

[Chivas]

I heard from a person in my flight unit that he wanted to throw the X52 out of the window because the sensors were not responding right ( laggy controls in IL2 and RoF) and when he took it apart, there was some dust in there, he cleaned it, but that didnt work, so he used WD40 and that worked, till a few weeks later when the same thing happened, now the question is does he have a house full of dust or is the X52 not well designed to keep dust out ( at least away from vital areas) , note his X52 was not very old.

Not relevant to your request but I use the G940, before that bug was announced I never noticed it, but I wanted to test it out for myself and then indeed noticed the error in the axis, someone said earlier in this thread that flying with it was impossible and not to keep in formation or extreme flying, utter bullcrap of course, I've never had any problems getting to a specific power percentage so formation flying is not an issue. Extreme flying? Pilot skills mostly, maybe someone who has profit going from 78 % to 77 in a nano second might be annoyed by the error. I don't want to show off here, but in the last online campaign I played I had the highest tally of enemy fighters shot down versus a low death rate, so flying with the G940 is at least if not more able to get yourself a good result in IL2 then say a X52.

I can understand that some might see me as a 'fanboy' ( which is actually true because I'm a fan of my G940) but in a negative way, I tried to make clear that the reversal bug is not a strong drawback of the G940 in IL2.

I agree that the reversal bug is not a huge problem, but it is a problem that makes accurate targeting a little slower than it would be without it. My favorte test is using a 109 with the MK108 and see how quickly I can kill a dozen friendly aircraft. I use friendly aircraft as they don't avoid, so its more about stick accuracy. The MSFF2 is the best in time and accuracy, taking only seconds to shoot them all down with one 108 per aircraft. The G940 was alittle slower as there was slightly more stick stiring, due mainly to the reversal bug. Although this is all relative to the ability of the user.

[Sven]

Although this is all relative to the ability of the user.

That is probably the biggest part, the machine can only be as accurate as the human hand, right?

Also, another reason going for a specific brand can be where you want to invest, invest in Saitek, you invest in the East(asia) probably not supporting where you live, but you are of course when you live in asia :) , so if you are for example an American you can consider buying CH products ect. For the same reason I bought a Philips instead of a Samsung TV a couple of weeks ago, at least some money will be used to support your countries economy. Of course this is totally up to you, but you can take it in mind when buying certain products.

[swiss]

IF the X52 Pro fixed the huge deadzone issue

Invest 20min of your time and you wont have a deadzone anymore, even on a non-pro.
;)

[LoBiSoMeM]

That is probably the biggest part, the machine can only be as accurate as the human hand, right?

Also, another reason going for a specific brand can be where you want to invest, invest in Saitek, you invest in the East(asia) probably not supporting where you live, but you are of course when you live in asia :) , so if you are for example an American you can consider buying CH products ect. For the same reason I bought a Philips instead of a Samsung TV a couple of weeks ago, at least some money will be used to support your countries economy. Of course this is totally up to you, but you can take it in mind when buying certain products.

"Das kapital" don't have a nation. Most probably in any case your money will support a bunch of european/north american CEOs and the chinese economy.

:-)

[LoBiSoMeM]

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good joystick since the MSFF2.

Try a cheap Thrustmaster 16000M. One year of heavy use here, modified to have longer shaft, and just perfect as the first day of use.

Maybe the moving parts don't last as long as a MSFF2, and I don't have FFB, but all the rest are really good.

One great and cheap piece of hardware, but with small recognition I don't know why.

[Antoninus]

Thrustmaster 16000M uses Hall sensors, the old MS sticks some optical sensor instead of potentiometers found in most joysticks. Both don't wear out over time

[Sokol1]

If I remember correctly the pro is supposed to have twice as many sensors (or possibly sensors twice as good ?).


Yes, PRO have two HALL sensor per axis (X and Y), but resolution is decrease in relation to X-52 Vanila: 1.024 in PRO x 2048 in Vanila.

Some "plus":
* 2 Spring in gimbal
* Trigger and HAT in metal
* 2 dedicated MFD buttons and 2 rotary dials with in-built buttons to
control additional game functionality
* MFD displays data directly from games, including Radio Stack info
from Microsoft Flight Simulator 9 and 10
* Software Development Kit included for creating game-specific
programs to interact with the MFD
* Choice of red, amber or green button illumination
* lluminated buttons and MFD - ideal for low light environments
* Throttle unit illumination varies depending on throttle position
* Enhanced MFD backlighting
* Improved cable management system

A good X-52 PRO review - made by SIMers (Google translation):

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsaitek.ru%2Fother%2Fx52pro_review%2 F

Sokol1

[Chivas]

Invest 20min of your time and you wont have a deadzone anymore, even on a non-pro.
;)

Hi Swiss, I bought one of the original X52's, and took it apart to fix the deadzone, but found it was a software issue that couldn't be adjusted in the stick setup. This was also verified by other users. BUT this was along time ago. What is the new fix.

[Chivas]

Try a cheap Thrustmaster 16000M. One year of heavy use here, modified to have longer shaft, and just perfect as the first day of use.

Maybe the moving parts don't last as long as a MSFF2, and I don't have FFB, but all the rest are really good.

One great and cheap piece of hardware, but with small recognition I don't know why.

This one stick I've never owned, and it could be a very good stick. Unfortunately its all user relative. There were glowing reviews of most of the sticks I've owned, but I think the reviewers never had a good joystick to compare them too. One man's junk in another man's treasure. ;)

[swiss]

Hi Swiss, I bought one of the original X52's, and took it apart to fix the deadzone, but found it was a software issue that couldn't be adjusted in the stick setup. This was also verified by other users. BUT this was along time ago. What is the new fix.

Remove the magnet holder thingy, take both magnets, stack them up, put them directly underneath the hall, center them - done.

[Sokol1]

What is the new fix.

Magnets repositioning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfJNiHmEszk&feature=related

JoyTester before:

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7219/01sinttulo1.jpg

After:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6333/dibujo1ms.jpg

Stiffen spring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TewzmOoysDw&feature=player_embedded

"How To":

http://orbxsystems.com/forums/index.php?topic=3176.msg22992#msg22992 (You need register to access the forum).
http://www.ala13.com/foro/viewtopic.php?t=6460

Sokol1

[MD_Titus]

used both. the pro version is noticeably stiffer, which is a good thing compared to the slightly floppy normal version. as it is a twisty stick, and as far as i'm aware none of the recent crop of dual throttle sticks are twisty. which for me is a must. tried rudder pedals, didn't like them. shame, i really liked the look of the dual throttles as well.

[Chivas]

Very interesting fix for the X52 deadzone. Thanks Swiss and Sokol1.

[LoBiSoMeM]

This one stick I've never owned, and it could be a very good stick. Unfortunately its all user relative. There were glowing reviews of most of the sticks I've owned, but I think the reviewers never had a good joystick to compare them too. One man's junk in another man's treasure. ;)

The resolution of TM16000M, the use of HALL in X/Y axes, and the price aren't relative. These facts make the joystick in question a bargain. JoyTest right now:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6721/tm16000m.jpg

PS: Compare the minimum step and precision with X52pro...

Give it a try! :)

[Chivas]

The resolution of TM16000M, the use of HALL in X/Y axes, and the price aren't relative. These facts make the joystick in question a bargain. JoyTest right now:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6721/tm16000m.jpg

PS: Compare the minimum step and precision with X52pro...

Give it a try! :)

That test is impressive, fortunately I can no longer compare my X52. There wasn't anything I liked about it and got rid of it years ago. I still have the Cougar, CH Fighterstick, Aviator, and G940 as backups for my MSFF2. Although I use the Cougar throttle which is excellent.

[leggit]

pro...better build quality

[albx]

well, i think i'll go for a PRO :D

[carl]

hi i bough the pro and for first month was great,
then(swiss wrote)unfortunately there is plastic "gliding" on plastic lol how true, after all the google fixes i bought a 1600m and about a year later am still very happy, just starting to feel a little loose in middle maybe although i would recommend saitek throttle as 1600m one feels absolute crap if you can buy just this:cool:

[Triggaaar]

I still have the Cougar, CH Fighterstick, Aviator, and G940 as backups for my MSFF2. Although I use the Cougar throttle which is excellent.As something of a gear collector, maybe you can give me some advice :) I have an MSFF2 (well, 2), and I'd like a throttle for SoW. Any suggestions on which to get?

Thanks

[Chivas]

As something of a gear collector, maybe you can give me some advice :) I have an MSFF2 (well, 2), and I'd like a throttle for SoW. Any suggestions on which to get?

Thanks

The Cougar throttle is the most comfortable and user friendly. It has a rotary in the perfect position for adjusting trim, and enough other buttons and rotaries that you would never have to use the keyboard atleast in prop sims. Unfortunately the throttle plugs into the Cougar joystick. I used to just keep the joystick on the floor, but I've since pulled the circuit board out of the joystick. You may find quite a few Cougars on ebay now that the Warthog has hit the market.

I'm interested in picking up a Warthog. The joystick looks to be very smooth and precise, and it has a dual throttle. Although the throttle doesn't have a rotary.

I currently use a MSFF2 with a Cougar Throttle, and Saitek Pro rudder pedals. I've had no problems with the Saitek rudder pedals other than their goofy Saitek toe brake programming.
.

[JAMF]

The Cougar throttle is the most comfortable and user friendly. It has a rotary in the perfect position for adjusting trim, and enough other buttons and rotaries that you would never have to use the keyboard atleast in prop sims. Unfortunately the throttle plugs into the Cougar joystick.
And if people don't like how smooth the throttle feels, they can mod it. IJ has created some nice aluminium bushings, which replace the plastic ones and makes the throttles action smooth. Add Cubpilot's Hall-Effect sensor kit and you have a good throttle that'll last a lifetime.

[swiss]

And if people don't like how smooth the throttle feels, they can mod it. IJ has created some nice aluminium bushings, which replace the plastic ones and makes the throttles action smooth. Add Cubpilot's Hall-Effect sensor kit and you have a good throttle that'll last a lifetime.

by then you have a $800 stick - still w/o ffb.

[imaca]

Try a cheap Thrustmaster 16000M. One year of heavy use here, modified to have longer shaft, and just perfect as the first day of use.

Maybe the moving parts don't last as long as a MSFF2, and I don't have FFB, but all the rest are really good.

One great and cheap piece of hardware, but with small recognition I don't know why.
Never really considered before - just looks a bit cheap and nasty. This probably explains lack of recognition. Your info has made me re-consider it. The x/y resolution looks excellent. How do you find the buttons, particularly the hat switch which looks small and slippery?

[mazex]

The X52 was useless if you wanted to hit your target quickly. IF the X52 Pro fixed the huge deadzone issue then it may be a viable option. I also don't particularly like the programming software. Personally I wouldn't tough another one with a ten foot pole.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good joystick since the MSFF2. Although the new Thrustmaster Warthog Hotas appears to have the qualities of a very good stick without force feedback. I will probably buy one soon, hopefully it won't join my Saitek X52, CH Fighterstick, Logitech G940, and Thrustmaster Cougar gathering dust in the basement.

Interesting as I have a similar scrapyard. In my basement I have two CH Figtersticks, a MSFFB2 (first reserve) and a Saitek Evo Force (used for about an hour, will let the kids play "disassembly" with it a rainy day). I have a 940 system on my desk that I love after the firmware fix of the dead zone... Witch stick is on your desktop now?

[Dano]

My X52Pro has no deadzone, though it does do the odd diamond shaped response. I'll try and mod it at some point to give the nice circular response :)

[swiss]

where can get this precision tester progi?

[Sokol1]

Joy Tester2 (Precision Tester) and others programs to test joysticks:

http://drop.io/hidden/n65epzbwjbecu5/asset/am95LXRlc3Rlcy1yYXI%253D

Sokol1

[swiss]

Joy Tester2 (Precision Tester) and others programs to test joysticks:

http://drop.io/hidden/n65epzbwjbecu5/asset/am95LXRlc3Rlcy1yYXI%253D

Sokol1

you so rock!

Thanks a heap!

[albx]

My X52Pro has no deadzone, though it does do the odd diamond shaped response. I'll try and mod it at some point to give the nice circular response :)

Dano, how old is your X52pro? is your joystick "sticky" sometime like have been reported by somebody? I do like the X52, but I'm worried i can be disappointed. Right now i have a cheap thrustmaster flight hotas X, and if i do a joytester to draw a circle, well, all i can draw are boxes :D, very bad feeling in the game. Much better is the AV8R, but is very uncomfortable to use, but the test with joytester is very good. I also thought to get the T.16000 how reported here, seems nice, but i don't want 100000 joysticks on my desk :D. I think i'll just buy the X52PRO, and if i'll not be satisfied with it i'll then do some mods.

Alberto

[swiss]

The sticky problem of the x52 can be solved.
Put some plastic compatible grease* between the spring dish and the base as well as on the rod of the spring dish.

*: I found Motorex bike grease 2000 to work very well, also most silicon greases should be ok also.
Never - Never use WD40, it's actually pure gasoline(90%).
You cant even use it to clean, as the 10% of oil it has in it will leave a thin oil layer which will make it impossible to reapply any grease on the cleaned item.
Isopropanol alcohol is the fluid of choice if you need to clean plastic parts.

[SEE]

I just downloaded Joystester 2 (thanks for the link BTW).

Bloody hell! My old analogue pot X45 is better than either the X52 or X52 Pro if obtaining ever increasing but tight circles is the benchmark. I just put my X45 up for sale on Ebay but me thinks I might sell one of the X52's :grin:.

The X52 Pro does have a better resolution than the X52 but both give diamond shapes. Modded X52 = No difference other than improved sensitivity from centre.

[Dano]

Dano, how old is your X52pro? is your joystick "sticky" sometime like have been reported by somebody?

I bought it when they were first released so however long ago that was, it's never been at all sticky.

[swiss]

I just downloaded Joystester 2 (thanks for the link BTW).

Bloody hell! My old analogue pot X45 is better than either the X52 or X52 Pro if obtaining ever increasing but tight circles is the benchmark. I just put my X45 up for sale on Ebay but me thinks I might sell one of the X52's :grin:.

The X52 Pro does have a better resolution than the X52 but both give diamond shapes. Modded X52 = No difference other than improved sensitivity from centre.

my modded x52 creates circles, not diamonds.

what did you do?

[LoBiSoMeM]

Never really considered before - just looks a bit cheap and nasty. This probably explains lack of recognition. Your info has made me re-consider it. The x/y resolution looks excellent. How do you find the buttons, particularly the hat switch which looks small and slippery?

Well, to begin, the HAT and buttons:

I used the joystick about a year of heavy user, and all the buttons on the handle itself are OK. I use the HAT switch to FOV changes, and it's reliable untill now, no problem at all in using it. The other buttons, all OK, can do dive bombing and snap shots precisely.

The base buttons are almost useless, as the "throttle" slider. Bad positioning. I never use they at all. The "twist rudder" is crap, as any other.

The TM16000M is really good if you want a cheap joystick, with some of the better X/Y axis sensibility and precision in the market. I don't know if it will last for 5 years or more, but for the price, even two years of flawless use is better than the others options in market.

In ergonomics side, I get rid of the hand rest in the base of handle (it's fully customizable in this matter, you can put the hand rest left/right or not using it at all, very nice) and use it with ahome made elongated tube in central position. I can fly for hours with total confort and precision.

The TM16000M really looks cheap and nasty, but it's by far the best joystick for the price, having in mind only the joystick itself. Others like CH have great construction, but not so good accuracy and cost more. The X52 and X52Pro don't have the same precision, as all the other Saitek joysticks.

If you are thinking about a "worth the price" joystick, with some of the best X/Y precisiona and reliability in the market, TM16000M is a bargain. I can't recomend it enough.

People are now rushing to buy Warthog. TM16000M uses the same HALL sensor that Warthog and G940 uses, in a simple construction. We pay a lot for things we don't really need.

Now I'm waiting some cheap plastic flight sim pedals with HALL sensor! :-P

[SEE]

my modded x52 creates circles, not diamonds.

what did you do?


I doubled the number of Magnets but fitted them over the existing ones. Sensitivity has improved and no deadzone. I modded mine long before I saw the vid posted in this thread.....

[swiss]

I doubled the number of Magnets but fitted them over the existing ones. Sensitivity has improved and no deadzone. I modded mine long before I saw the vid posted in this thread.....

ok, kinda "special" mod then.



The base buttons are almost useless, as the "throttle" slider. Bad positioning.

The slider is quite useful for proppitch. ;)

Base buttons and flips: Lock tailwheel, bomb-bay, start engine - basically stuff you dont use that often. Wouldn't miss them either...




One thing I dont get: Why do so many recommend the 16000 although it is not a Hotas?!



Now I'm waiting some cheap plastic flight sim pedals with HALL sensor!

Remember: You only get what you pay for - the x52 should be around $15, cost, without R&d and marketing.
So, cheap usually means it really IS xxxx.

[Dano]

I doubled the number of Magnets but fitted them over the existing ones. Sensitivity has improved and no deadzone. I modded mine long before I saw the vid posted in this thread.....

Was that basically just sticking extra magents on top of the current ones using their own attraction?

[LoBiSoMeM]

The slider is quite useful for proppitch. ;)

Base buttons and flips: Lock tailwheel, bomb-bay, start engine - basically stuff you dont use that often. Wouldn't miss them either...

One thing I dont get: Why do so many recommend the 16000 although it is not a Hotas?!

As I said, the problem is the position. Using the slider to something really dynamic in IL-2, like Prop Pitch, is troublesome with the T16000M slider, and the buttons are really bad to map important controls, they are too near, irregular shape, etc. The keyboard is far better to that.

I, as "so many", recommended the T16000M as PART of a HOTAS solution (the "And Stick" one). People only think about a HOTAS that is sold as a package? Why not to buy a Joystick, a Throttle solution and Rudder pedals? If people stay stuck with closed packages, maybe lost a lot of opportunities.

I use in IL-2 one modded T16000M, a Saitek Throttle Quadrant and "improvised" Rudder Pedals, and can fly as good as an owner of a G940, X52Pro and any other expensive HOTAS solution, maybe even better - in terms of control input, not overall hability, of course... :-) .

[SEE]

Was that basically just sticking extra magents on top of the current ones using their own attraction?


My X52 suffered a slight lag in both X and Y axis only in one direction. I ended up placing one circular ceramic magnet on just one side of the hall effect for both axis and these are just slipped on using their own attraction. It also cured the 'off centre' problem. If I go into Il2 hardware input there still seems to be a slight 'dead zone' but checking the X -Y raw data using a third party utility indicates otherwise. I will try the 'slide by' mod shown earlier in this thread based on the results of the precision test posted as mine still produces a diamond shaped pattern.

[albx]

I ordered the X52 Pro. This is the best circle i can draw with my actual Thrustmaster Hotas X :grin:

In the mean time, can please somebody give me a good IL2 mapping for buttons? I don't want to use the profiler yet, just how who have the x52 mapped in the IL2 the commands...

Thank you very much
Alberto

[SEE]

Most will have keyboard assignments mapped in the IL2 Control menu and then use these to programme their X52's either using the Saitek SST programming utility. Your best bet is to list the commands that you need and note the location of the various X52 switches and axis controls.

When you go into the controls menu just select the command you want and press the appropriate switch. Prop Pitch, TRim, flaps can be assigned to the rotary/slider controls and these are listed at the bottom of the IL2 controls menu. You will not be able to use the mouse or the throttle switch marked 'I' if you use the X52 with no SST installed and the MFD will be pretty much redundant.

I prefer to use the Microsoft driver and Xpadder for programming both my X52 and x52 Pro rather than Saiteks driver and their SST software as it is easier with all switches/axis available for programming, more versatile, requires no 'Magic HID' installs or changes to the Windows OS but I lose the MFD functions and the Mousestick (neither of which are of any use to me anyway!)

[MD_Titus]

using the sst means you can get a lot more controls in there. i have modes set up for landing/take off, ground attack and dogfighting. some functions are repeated, such as prop pitch, flaps and view controls, but it varies in terms of ordinance/weapon control and functions specific to those tasks. i occasionally throw my landing gear at targets rather than bombs, but that's my carelessness. i only use the keyboard to spam chat

[SEE]

I carried out the 'slide by' magnets mod on my X52 (as shown earlier in this thread), I have to say it has made a huge difference to the sensitivity and no dead zone - what a transformation!

Centering the hall effect IC is critical for optimum results though and this is extremely time consuming to do by just trying to locate the magnets precisely. I also noted that if the magnets were mounted incorrectly regards their 'polarity' the Axis direction becomes reversed and this needs to be checked before permanently fixing them.

If anyone is contemplating doing this I snipped off the small plastic nipples and the lips of the plastic flange on the rear which locate the small Hall effect PCB in a fixed position. I then enlarged the securing screw hole by a mm or so (there is no track to damage and this can be done by hand using a twist drill or a needle file). Firing up the windows properties panel, I was then be able to easily adjust the Hall sensor PCB over the relocated magnets for the optimum position that gave the best sensitivity to light deflection of the yoke in both Y and X axis. The Hall Effect PCB securing screw was then fully tightened to hold it in the optimum position.

I also changed the spring but that is another story..............

[albx]

The relocation of magnets, yes, this is the first thing I will do when I'll receive the joystick. About the commands assigned in IL2, I just wanted someone give me a simple list of how he mapped (ex. : ROCKETS=FIRE 2, GUNS=FIRE 1, GEARS=TOGGLE 4 etc.).

Alberto

[SEE]

I didn't mod my X52 Pro Albx, quite happy with that one as standard because it has 2 hall effect IC's and there is no deadzone - leave it as is would be my advice given that yours is new and under warranty.

The X52's have dual action triggers so you can map cannons and machine guns to it but I also have cannons on a seperate button for on line where ammo is usually limited. I think The reason you will not get many suggestions is that there are so many variables, e.g, I have headtracking and thus do not need to map any views to my POV's and I also tend to fly mainly fighters and only in pit view so mapping is specifically geared for my needs. For me the following are essential for both on line and single player and if I were to use the stick without any modes programmed it would have to have at least the following accesssible from the stick;-

Brakes
Flaps on lower rotary (throttle)
Prop Pitch (Throttle slider)
Elevator Trim (top rotary
WEP/Boost (throttle Dpad)
Radiator (Throttle Dpad)
Supercharger (Throttle Dpad)
Map (D button)
Mouse Button (Gunner/pilot position)
Toggle Gear E button

If you use external views ( I don't....) then you could assign the throttle scroll wheel as follows...

Scroll Down = Next friendly
Scroll Up = Next enemy
Scroll press button = return to your prefferred view (open or Cockpit, etc)

How you programme the POV/Dpad and various buttons available on the Yoke depends on how many views you want, ordinance, etc and you will just have to list those and assign them according to your needs.

You will also have 3 two way toggle switches offering you a further six commands.

[crucislancer]

The relocation of magnets, yes, this is the first thing I will do when I'll receive the joystick. About the commands assigned in IL2, I just wanted someone give me a simple list of how he mapped (ex. : ROCKETS=FIRE 2, GUNS=FIRE 1, GEARS=TOGGLE 4 etc.).

Alberto

When you get your stick, head over to mission4today.com, I uploaded a IL-2 profile for the X52 a couple of years ago:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3492

I don't know if it will work with the X52Pro, but it's worth a shot. It puts the elevator trim on the top rotary, rudder trim on the small rotary, prop pitch on the slider, flaps on the mouse wheel. It's got everything you need on the stick except for view options (I don't use them).

Unfortunately, I can't use this profile anymore as the top rotary on my throttle isn't working right anymore. Not sure if I just need to clean the pots or replace them, but I think I might just get a new HOTAS in the future. Regardless, the X52 is a good stick for the price, but I did have an issue with the first one I purchased, it wouldn't stay centered at all so I had to exchange it for a different one, and it worked fine for a little over two years until the rotary failed.

And, just a personal preference, I set the sensitivity on the pitch and roll axis to 100 across the board, and the rudder from 0 to 100 on a slight curve to start with that gradually gets taller the closer to the end I get.

[klem]

My X52 Pro doesn't have centring or deadzone problems. It's been good bang for the buck, as was the X36 and X45, and is even better with it's Hall sensors.

What it does have after a couple of years use is some worn Rotary pots and switches.

Anyone know where I can get replacements? Especially those small flat rotary pots and the diaphragm type button switches. MadCatz (Saitek's support compeny in UK) won't sell them.

[SEE]

What are the symptoms regards the throttle potentiometers? Mouse creep, Rotary pots and Slider not going full scale, large deadzone on the Rotary's are symptoms of a low reference voltage and can only be cured with a hardware mod to the X52 Regulator circuit.

The small potentiometers are used in most of the later Saitek/Madcatz flightsticks and can be dissasembled for claening with 'switch or contact cleaner. You can also apply a ltlle bit more tension to the wipers. Stripping down these sticks is not easy unfortunately but can be done with care and attention. You must map out the wire colour codes to the various pints on the PCB's as these will fall off as soon a you start to remove the various components

The Small 'Press To Make' microswitches are available from most Electronic Component stores but there are two sizes used in the Saitek.

Unfortunately, these sticks are hand soldered and I found a number of connections that were not soldered correctly. Mine had intermittent switches, Rotary and slider problems, dreadful mouse cursor creep and a large deadzone (cured with the magnets mod). I got it for £5-00...........and following a complete strip down, mod to the regulator circuit and re-locating the magnets it is as good as my X52 pro.

[TheGrunch]

I found this guide (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3850) very useful for deciding upon my joystick bindings.

[klem]

What are the symptoms regards the throttle potentiometers? Mouse creep, Rotary pots and Slider not going full scale, large deadzone on the Rotary's are symptoms of a low reference voltage and can only be cured with a hardware mod to the X52 Regulator circuit.

The small potentiometers are used in most of the later Saitek/Madcatz flightsticks and can be dissasembled for claening with 'switch or contact cleaner. You can also apply a ltlle bit more tension to the wipers. Stripping down these sticks is not easy unfortunately but can be done with care and attention. You must map out the wire colour codes to the various pints on the PCB's as these will fall off as soon a you start to remove the various components

The Small 'Press To Make' microswitches are available from most Electronic Component stores but there are two sizes used in the Saitek.

Unfortunately, these sticks are hand soldered and I found a number of connections that were not soldered correctly. Mine had intermittent switches, Rotary and slider problems, dreadful mouse cursor creep and a large deadzone (cured with the magnets mod). I got it for £5-00...........and following a complete strip down, mod to the regulator circuit and re-locating the magnets it is as good as my X52 pro.

Mine is the X52 Pro. The Throttle Rotary 2 is giving intermittent signals around the centre position, where I was always adjusting my elevator trim. I guess the track is worn away. These are not normal round pots but flat, rectangular, with a centre spindle.

I found switches that would almost do the job, I might have to trim a little off the push-stud. But I can't find those pots anywhere. They look very delicate for disassembly.

[Sokol1]

ken,

Look these P260 pot sold by Leo Bodnar, if fit inside your throttle, are better than original ones. http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836/

Or buy generic USB stick in your local market, they use the same square pot's used by Saitek.

Some guy replace these pots for HALL sensor + magnets:

http://www.escuadron69.net/v20/foro/index.php?/topic/45431-rotaries-del-x52-pro-por-sensor-hall/

Sokol1

[nearmiss]

Unless you can get your hands on MSFF2, I would recommend getting T.16000M from Thrustmaster. It features the same Hali magnetic sensors like in the much more expensive Warthog HOTAS.

From various other sources I would recommend that you stay away from Saitek. Their build quality is questionable.


The MSFF2 has twist handle rudder, which works well. You will have to have a pedals, if you do not have twist handle for rudder. You can't real fly and fight well enough without good rudder control.

I use CHProducts FighterStick,ProPedals,ProThrottle,and MFP programmable keyboard. This is expensive setup, but exceptional quality... no blinky lights and slick little lighted panels and junk.

[klem]

ken,

Look these P260 pot sold by Leo Bodnar, if fit inside your throttle, are better than original ones. http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836/

Or buy generic USB stick in your local market, they use the same square pot's used by Saitek.

Some guy replace these pots for HALL sensor + magnets:

http://www.escuadron69.net/v20/foro/index.php?/topic/45431-rotaries-del-x52-pro-por-sensor-hall/

Sokol1

Thanks for trying Sokol1.

The pots are like the orange coloured pot in the first photograph of the second link. They are 10mm x 11mm x 3mm thick. I don't know the resistance value but I can measure that. I read that link (using google translator! ) and I think (!) he has given up but then perhaps suggests using round magnets, like fridge magnets, and the Hall sensor.

I don't know enough about how the Hall sensors work to replace a potentiometer or what 'type' or 'value' the sensors should be. It's a great idea so I'll have to study it.

[albx]

THIS JOYSTICK IS AWESOME!! :-)

Just received mine, installed, configured, removed the throttle detents (I don't like it) and tried to shot down some planes... never have been so easy!! Never will buy a cheap joystick again!! Right now I'm just trying to map all the buttons I need...

Alberto

[albx]

Well, after a week of use i noticed a thing. Is this little play around the center an issue or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjA9t7Jlb7Q

thanks

[klem]

Well, after a week of use i noticed a thing. Is this little play around the center an issue or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjA9t7Jlb7Q

thanks

Well there are two things here.

First, if its a new stick I'd say it shouldn't be doing that and to contact Saitek or their support company Madcatz and get their opinion. The cone, cup and spring idea is prone to that with wear. My X52Pro does it a bit and I have had it a couple of years now. By the way I assume it is not 'sticky'?

Second, if you look in the Windows Games Controller programme and the crosshair is moving throughout that 'loose' physical movement you are at least getting an input response to the movement, it is not mechanical play giving a 'dead zone' so if you can live with the 'feel' of it your stick input is not lost. I've got used to mine and that input results in aircraft response so I don't worry about it and my springs are pretty relaxed now so there's no noticeable 'step change' in feel when moving onto the spring pressure.

[albx]

Well there are two things here.

First, if its a new stick I'd say it shouldn't be doing that and to contact Saitek or their support company Madcatz and get their opinion. The cone, cup and spring idea is prone to that with wear. My X52Pro does it a bit and I have had it a couple of years now. By the way I assume it is not 'sticky'?

Second, if you look in the Windows Games Controller programme and the crosshair is moving throughout that 'loose' physical movement you are at least getting an input response to the movement, it is not mechanical play giving a 'dead zone' so if you can live with the 'feel' of it your stick input is not lost. I've got used to mine and that input results in aircraft response so I don't worry about it and my springs are pretty relaxed now so there's no noticeable 'step change' in feel when moving onto the spring pressure.

sorry, forgot to tell that the crosshair is not moving when i do this :(

[klem]

This is a new stick? An X52Pro?

THAT'S WRONG! Kick it back to Saitek. The Hall sensors in the stick do not lie.

[SEE]

Mine is the same except the crosshair moves at the slightest touch. You can see where the freeplay occurs, partly in the lower cup that supports the spring and where the shaft enters the yoke. Yours should be sensitive to the slightest movement too.

When I get time I will have a look at the construction and see if the freeplay can be reduced or eliminated.

[albx]

Mine is the same except the crosshair moves at the slightest touch. You can see where the freeplay occurs, partly in the lower cup that supports the spring and where the shaft enters the yoke. Yours should be sensitive to the slightest movement too.

When I get time I will have a look at the construction and see if the freeplay can be reduced or eliminated.

It's like the cup's hole it's too big for the shaft, here is the play. Probably if it was smaller then the stick was "sticky". No, mine isn't sensitive at those movements... I already wrote at the saitek support and waiting an answer.
p.s.
Is the FSX demo still included in the package? I got it also, is probably an old stock or what?

[W32Blaster]

G940 reversal bug is handled by new firmware release:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-firmware-1-42-is-now-available/td-p/542496

[Sutts]

Well, to begin, the HAT and buttons:

I used the joystick about a year of heavy user, and all the buttons on the handle itself are OK. I use the HAT switch to FOV changes, and it's reliable untill now, no problem at all in using it. The other buttons, all OK, can do dive bombing and snap shots precisely.

The base buttons are almost useless, as the "throttle" slider. Bad positioning. I never use they at all. The "twist rudder" is crap, as any other.

The TM16000M is really good if you want a cheap joystick, with some of the better X/Y axis sensibility and precision in the market. I don't know if it will last for 5 years or more, but for the price, even two years of flawless use is better than the others options in market.

In ergonomics side, I get rid of the hand rest in the base of handle (it's fully customizable in this matter, you can put the hand rest left/right or not using it at all, very nice) and use it with ahome made elongated tube in central position. I can fly for hours with total confort and precision.

The TM16000M really looks cheap and nasty, but it's by far the best joystick for the price, having in mind only the joystick itself. Others like CH have great construction, but not so good accuracy and cost more. The X52 and X52Pro don't have the same precision, as all the other Saitek joysticks.

If you are thinking about a "worth the price" joystick, with some of the best X/Y precisiona and reliability in the market, TM16000M is a bargain. I can't recomend it enough.

People are now rushing to buy Warthog. TM16000M uses the same HALL sensor that Warthog and G940 uses, in a simple construction. We pay a lot for things we don't really need.

Now I'm waiting some cheap plastic flight sim pedals with HALL sensor! :-P


Thanks LoBiSoMeM, some interesting information there.

I'm really interested in stick mods that will give me a full length flight stick with the correct amount of movement. Would be great if you could post a picture of your TM16000M extension mod please. Also, any chance you could point me to a site that outlines the work required?

Thanks!

[MadBlaster]

Well, to begin, the HAT and buttons:

I used the joystick about a year of heavy user, and all the buttons on the handle itself are OK. I use the HAT switch to FOV changes, and it's reliable untill now, no problem at all in using it. The other buttons, all OK, can do dive bombing and snap shots precisely.

The base buttons are almost useless, as the "throttle" slider. Bad positioning. I never use they at all. The "twist rudder" is crap, as any other.

The TM16000M is really good if you want a cheap joystick, with some of the better X/Y axis sensibility and precision in the market. I don't know if it will last for 5 years or more, but for the price, even two years of flawless use is better than the others options in market.

In ergonomics side, I get rid of the hand rest in the base of handle (it's fully customizable in this matter, you can put the hand rest left/right or not using it at all, very nice) and use it with ahome made elongated tube in central position. I can fly for hours with total confort and precision.

The TM16000M really looks cheap and nasty, but it's by far the best joystick for the price, having in mind only the joystick itself. Others like CH have great construction, but not so good accuracy and cost more. The X52 and X52Pro don't have the same precision, as all the other Saitek joysticks.

If you are thinking about a "worth the price" joystick, with some of the best X/Y precisiona and reliability in the market, TM16000M is a bargain. I can't recomend it enough.

People are now rushing to buy Warthog. TM16000M uses the same HALL sensor that Warthog and G940 uses, in a simple construction. We pay a lot for things we don't really need.

Now I'm waiting some cheap plastic flight sim pedals with HALL sensor! :-P

Also a TM16000M user. It gets heavy use. I agree with this poster. The weak part of the stick is the twist rudder action and the slider. If you want the stick to last, don't use either of these. Map your rudder and throttle to something else. Everything else is thumbs up. I've seen them discounted to $25. I would buy again.

[Skiiwa]

X52 pro if U have the extra money. My X52 is a great beginning Hotas! I actuall have a mix if CH Stuff(Pedals, Stick and Quadrant, with Saitek Panels and Throttle quadrant). My X36 still works:) Saiteks Hotas are the best buy for a tight budget!

[ghodan]

The X52 was useless if you wanted to hit your target quickly. IF the X52 Pro fixed the huge deadzone issue then it may be a viable option. I also don't particularly like the programming software. Personally I wouldn't tough another one with a ten foot pole.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a good joystick since the MSFF2. Although the new Thrustmaster Warthog Hotas appears to have the qualities of a very good stick without force feedback. I will probably buy one soon, hopefully it won't join my Saitek X52, CH Fighterstick, Logitech G940, and Thrustmaster Cougar gathering dust in the basement.

What is wrong with your CH Fighterstick?