Understanding Luftwaffe bomber units through the years

[IceFire]

I've been doing a tiny bit of research for my next campaign project (I have two in the oven right now that feature Yaks) and I ran across something interesting. Several of the German bomber units converted, starting in 1943 but mostly in 1944, from the Ju88 to the Me410. This was something that I wasn't aware of.

In most online battles that I participate in, we use the Ju88A-4 even in the later battles because we need something that has more bombing capacity than a FW190 despite the risks of interception by fighters that can take you down in an instant. What I didn't realize is the phase out from Ju88 to Me410. It makes me wish we had a fully realized Me410 in the standard patches (I'm aware of some great efforts in the MOD community).

So I do have to ask if the Me410 was a real successor to the Ju88 in the bomber role or if it was chosen because it was faster/more survivable even if it wasn't as capable carrying large amounts of bombs. Trying to further my understanding...

[KG26_Alpha]

Hi

Kampfgeschwader 51 "Edelweiss"

They flew Ju88 then Me410 then Me262

Not all Ju88 units converted to Me410

For example.

KG2 flew both in 1944

Known as Gefechtsverband Hallensleben between 20.9.44 and 15.3.45, controlling III./KG51, NSGr.1, NSGr.2 and NSGr.20.

It was probably the units reduction and compression of resources that led to the newer induction of pilots to convert to the later aircraft.

Me 410 needed only 2 crew.

To understand better have a good look at this site.

http://www.ww2.dk/

See you in a month :)

[WTE_Galway]

This Excel file by Flatlander containing tables of historical Luftwaffe geschwader including dates operating in different theaters and the aircraft flown might be useful:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3717

[IceFire]

Yep I have those two... that's actually how I noticed that change over in the first place. I guess my question is still... how capable was the Me410 versus the Ju88 as a bomber? I see the Me410 as a faster Bf110 which is not bad compared to the Ju88 as a bomber but it lacks things like the Stuvi bombsight, level bombsight, etc.

I don't know much about the Me410 and there isn't much online.

It does LOOK really interesting. Thus I'd love to fly one in say 4.12m or something like that :)

[WTE_Galway]

Yep I have those two... that's actually how I noticed that change over in the first place. I guess my question is still... how capable was the Me410 versus the Ju88 as a bomber? I see the Me410 as a faster Bf110 which is not bad compared to the Ju88 as a bomber but it lacks things like the Stuvi bombsight, level bombsight, etc.

I don't know much about the Me410 and there isn't much online.

It does LOOK really interesting. Thus I'd love to fly one in say 4.12m or something like that :)

http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20410/Me%20410%20A-1%20U4%20Wa%20Bk%205.pdf

From here:

http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

[JG53Frankyboy]

the "General der Kampfflieger" (chief of bomber branch Luftwaffe) was NOT happy with the decission that he got the Me410 !
just one thing, the Me410 was not able to carry two SC500 with a complete closed bombdoor.........
the lack of horzonzal bombingequipment made it, well, ...........not realy a bomber :D

anyway, the allied fighter defence was so strong that almost all operations of the KGs were at night at least from 43 on. Some exceptions were at the eastern front.

the KGs liked the improved Ju88S, Ju188 ore Jumo213 engined He111 much more. But the numbers were very limited :( , and even they could only operate, with a hope of return, at night ! But the Jägernotprogramm ceased the production of Bombers almost totaly.................

after the succeses in supporting the german groundadvances early in the war, the time of the german bombers was over. Just, as already said, sometimes on the easternfront (and VERY seldom on the other fronts ), they could have some success . but at last in 1944 also that was over.


as nice the Ju88 was and the other bombers worked quite well in an area where the german fighters hade fought the airsuperourity. As soon that was lost, the "bomberwar" was over for the LW. from 43 on there are few allied operations that were harmed by the german bombers...........................



actually , nobody in the Luftwaffe, not the bomber- not the fighterbranch realy wanted the Me410......it was there, it had to be used.
and the night attack on the UK were not more than pinpoint attacks.

[Avimimus]

Yep I have those two... that's actually how I noticed that change over in the first place. I guess my question is still... how capable was the Me410 versus the Ju88 as a bomber? I see the Me410 as a faster Bf110 which is not bad compared to the Ju88 as a bomber but it lacks things like the Stuvi bombsight, level bombsight, etc.


Somewhat smaller, 100kph faster, similar, less crew and one 50%-30% of the bomb load.

The Me-410 has good forward/downward visibility (perhaps better than the Ju-88. I'm not sure about how well the more advanced bombsights compensated for the lack of a dedicated bombardier.

[JG53Frankyboy]

the Me410 "Schnellkämpfer" had a Stuvi , but no bombsight for levelbombing.
they researched to equip the 410 with a Lotfe7D , but there was no way to make it practical and usefull.

said, the Kampfflieger had to use it because it was there and the "bosses" made the decission to build it instead, as example, the Ju88S.
the production of the Ju88 was actually reduced to build more Me410 :(

two man crew, two engines are a waste of resoucres to bring one SC500 to England.............................IMHO !

two SC500 reduced speed and range because of the gap in the bombdoors, and two SD500(that fitted in the bombroom because of smaller shape) was not realy the correct weapon.............

and anyway, one cant compare the german bomberforce of 1943+ with the masses of strategic bombers at day and night and the tactical bombers at day the allied used. that was way above the possibilites the germans had !

[csThor]

You need to separate the Me 410 A and Me 410 B ... both were used for very different roles. Initially the 410 was supposed to be the new multi-role combat aircraft replacing not only the Bf 110 but that never worked for reasons known. As it was the Me 410 A was used in the strategic recon and fast bomber role (hence the equipment of parts of KG 51 and others). The Me 410 B, however, was a different beast and dedicated to the "Zerstörer" role as replacement for the Bf 110 G-2. It had different (stronger) engines and a much different weapons package available.

I guess the shift from Ju 88 S to Me 410 was a question of economy of forces. The BMW 801s and Jumo 213As of the Ju 88 S were needed more for the Fw 190 production while the Me 410 was supposed to replace the 110 in all roles, anyway. None of that worked, though.

[JG53Frankyboy]

according to Mankau/Petrick it is highly doubtfull that any 410B got the stronger DB603G. The most ones had the same engine as the 410A.

and a lot of As were armed and used as daylight Destroyers (heavy interceports) actually.
there were even oneseater versions with GM1 engines :D .

the 410B was one of the "Dreams" of the Luftwaffe brass that came never true as planned - as so many LW porjects...............

[IceFire]

We're there not heavy fighter and bomber variations on both the A and the B model of the Me410? I was also surprised to see that it was entering service in 1943 rather than late 1944 as I had originally thought it might have. Amazing that it couldn't fit a pair of SC500s without the bomb bays being open... I guess that wasn't the original idea for the type? What about external stores or was it restricted/limited in doing that? Obviously internal carriage is better for aerodynamics.

All of this makes me really want to have it in the game someday (I mean fully... Don't get me started :D). It seems like it would be very interesting to fly... With a Stuvi bombsight for dive bombing that would be idea as a tactical heavy fighter. Better than guessing with the Bf110G-2 which is often what I find myself doing online. I guess the other real draw would be bomber interception with all of the various armament configurations.

I saw drawings in one of the links for a dual MK103 install but I read somewhere that it was never used. What happened there?

[JG53Frankyboy]

Some of the 410B-2 had two MK103 in the weaponsroom. First delivery was june 44.From 320 build B-2s around 100 were armed with MK103 , the rest with 5cm BK (/U4) or the 2 additional MG151/20 (/U2)
But you have to consider, the development of the MK103 took a lot of time. It became realy serviceable short before the Me410 programm was canceled, by order of 1. July 44.
The last 40 Me410s were delivered to the LW in September 44.


the 410 could carry small bombs (SC50/70, AB23) at 4 bombracks below the innersection of the wing.
but the frontunits deleted them very fast to get more speed and range.....................
another annyoing point was, already with the 210 , that the bombload of 8xSC50 intern couldnt be used in a diveattack . the bombs didnt came clear from the bombbay :(