DT Nightfighter request

[skyfox]

I realize that this is probably a long shot, but it doesn't hurt to ask.:)
Some time ago I saw mention of night fighters in 4.11 in the DT development update thread.
Is there any chance that we could get the F6F5N hellcat night fighter at some point?
http://home.windstream.net/hensons/CAG91/Images/f6f-c5.jpg
http://home.windstream.net/hensons/CAG91/Images/VFN91_1.jpg

Thanks in advance for your consideration and for the work that DT is doing.

Regards,
Skyfox
Virtual VFN-91

[swiss]

that would require a working radar too...

[JG53Frankyboy]

its a Grumman , you remember the Grumman story with PF ???
Grumman wants money to allow "their" planes/ships/weapons in the game.........................................
and DT might be working for free, they still releasing OFFICIAL patches !

because of that , never !!!

[Blackdog_kt]

First of all, working radars are already planned by TD, i think for patch 4.11, so that's out of the way. There's even a youtube video by TD showing an early version at work on a BF110G night fighter.

As for the Grumman thing, i don't know if it applies or not. My understanding was that as long as you don't "sell" models of Grumman aircraft (like they were sold on the PF disk) they can't ask for royalties. DT is making official patches on one hand, on the other one though they are community made and free, so i don't know what the legal interpretation of it is going to be. :confused:

[JG53Frankyboy]

First of all, working radars are already planned by TD, i think for patch 4.11, so that's out of the way. There's even a youtube video by TD showing an early version at work on a BF110G night fighter.

As for the Grumman thing, i don't know if it applies or not. My understanding was that as long as you don't "sell" models of Grumman aircraft (like they were sold on the PF disk) they can't ask for royalties. DT is making official patches on one hand, on the other one though they are community made and free, so i don't know what the legal interpretation of it is going to be. :confused:

i think you can guess what US lawyers would do when DT would release some Grumman stuff in an official patch..................................its a pitty, but it is like it is.

[bf-110]

First of all, working radars are already planned by TD, i think for patch 4.11, so that's out of the way. There's even a youtube video by TD showing an early version at work on a BF110G night fighter.



This
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg76JI8mbzk

And I found something interesting,althought NOT OFFICIAL about radars.Hope TD watch this video.Can anyone confirm if those stuff are historically correct\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFuXjBSdIw&feature=related

[WTE_Galway]

i think you can guess what US lawyers would do when DT would release some Grumman stuff in an official patch..................................its a pitty, but it is like it is.

Yeah, a lot of Northrop Grumman planes are disappearing from model kit shelves as well for the same reason.

[Blackdog_kt]

i think you can guess what US lawyers would do when DT would release some Grumman stuff in an official patch..................................its a pitty, but it is like it is.

Actually i can't guess, that's why i'm asking :-P
Maybe i didn't make myself completely clear, so i'll try to explain a bit more.

1st scenario: Do the Grumman royalties refer to products we pay for? As in, if a developer makes a 3d model and "sells" it (in an expansion or other paid-for product), the developer's profits legally "justify" Grumman's royalty fees?
If this is true, then do the TD patches get a free pass because they cost nothing, or are they considered part of the original paid-for game because they have an official stamp, thus making them liable to royalty fees?

2nd scenario: Do the royalties apply to any kind of modelling whatsoever, even free 3d models?
If this is true, then how come the mods get a free pass? Simply because they can't find a company to sue and can't enforce it?

I think it was mentioned at some point that Grumman can sue you for money only if you make money yourself from selling 3d models that are based on their aircraft (the 1st scenario). If this is the case then their lawsuits wouldn't apply to free content, however i don't know if an official patch is considered part of the paid-for original game or not. If it is, then it becomes liable to royalty fees, but if it's not then it shouldn't be.

Of course, it could be that nobody knows enough to make a decision. It might be the case that TD might actually be in the clear, but since nobody has the legal knowledge to be sure they naturally just decide to play it safe.

Does anyone have more in-depth information as to how this situation actually works?

[IceFire]

I'm sure someone with some legal background can expand on what the details are bout I'll take the cynical route. With the shadow cast over... anything Grumman is nearly untouchable because even the threat of legal action would probably destroy any efforts at this point.

The best I understand is that although this problem pertains to the current game engine... the next gen product is separate from all of this and we'll hopefully see American vehicles and aircraft affected by this in the future. There are a few American assets that I believe are still possible to add and I'm not sure if adding a night fighter variation counts as adding something new or not either. Again it might be too close to venture into that nightmare.

We could have a Beaufighter or Mosquito nightfighter anyways...

[WTE_Galway]

Problem is the deal with NG was subject to a non-disclosure agreement which means:

- actual details are hard to come by

- even when you know the details its difficult to tell what you are ALLOWED to say without getting the thread locked/post-deleted on some forums



Basic story as I understand is that NG threatened UBI with legal action over copyright trademark issues. The threatened action apparently related to both the 3D likeness and the use of the NG trademark names for ships, aircraft and vehicles in Pacific Fighters.

The matter did not go to court as NG had obtained an of injunction preventing the release of Pacific Fighters. To avoid delays UBI settled with NG and then billed Oleg for the costs.

The issue is controversial as most of the equipment was designed and built with tax-payers money. Some commentators have claimed that if it had gone to court NG would have lost, however a court case would have taken years to settle.

[bf-110]

- even when you know the details its difficult to tell what you are ALLOWED to say without getting the thread locked/post-deleted on some forums






If that was on China,people would call it censorship.

[Blackdog_kt]

Hahaha, so true. :-P

I'm not very familiar with legalities, especially when it comes to US law, but i'm surprised all the simulator fans and scale modellers haven't taken up one of those class action lawsuits or something similar.

The thing here is that these machines were built with the people's money and manual labour under contract from the government which is supposed to serve these people, so as long as they have been phased out of active service one could argue that they are part of history and public domain.

I'm not holding my breath on a positive resolution, but it would be cool to see some movement. Chalk this one up there with the rest of the causes i might take up as an eccentric billionaire, if i ever won the lottery that is :-P

[Fergal69]

Further to bf-110's post with videos, the ME262 was produced as a night fighter.

The radar installed in the ME262 looks too modern to be accurate thought - I may be wrong as not seen inside one.

I for one am looking forward to the hopeful release of the bf110 nightfighter.

[skyfox]

It was not my intention to drudge up the NG issue. I just saw a while back that some in flight radar options were being looked at for a future patch. And I guess in my mind I was looking at the F6F5N not as a new aircraft addition, but more as an additional armament or loadout option for the F6F5.
In reality the F6F5 we have and the F6F5N are the same aircraft if you take away the radar pod.

Anyway, I understand if legalities would prohibit its development, and I certainly would not want it to cause problems for Team DT and the work they are doing, but I felt there was no harm in asking.

Regards,
Skyfox
Virtual VFN-91

[csThor]

The radar pod would mean new 3d model and therefor we'd be in (very) hot waters with "the Grumman thingy". Not going to happen. Sorry. :?

[Tempest123]

The radar pod would mean new 3d model and therefor we'd be in (very) hot waters with "the Grumman thingy". Not going to happen. Sorry. :?

Just curious, are changes to the existing Grumman aircraft in the sim permitted, I.e FM tweaks, or bug fixes? Not that I have found any, but just want to know whether these aircraft are "supported" as far as the future of Il2 is concerned with 4.10.

[major_setback]

Actually i can't guess, that's why i'm asking :-P
Maybe i didn't make myself completely clear, so i'll try to explain a bit more.

1st scenario: Do the Grumman royalties refer to products we pay for? As in, if a developer makes a 3d model and "sells" it (in an expansion or other paid-for product), the developer's profits legally "justify" Grumman's royalty fees?


I don't think it is a case of royalties. They are not the issue. They own the rights to the likeness of their aircraft. They don't want anyone to use their property. They don't listen to any arguments by modeller's because there is no financial (corporate) need for them to do so (relative to the size of the company).

Having said that, what is the incentive for them to aid a foreign company at a potential cost to domestic ones (Little Soft ware brothers etc.)

I have never heard any talk of fees.

[Codex]

I for one would LOVE the UHU to be included

http://christophe.arribat.pagesperso-orange.fr/bird2-he219.jpg

[Romanator21]

And I found something interesting,althought NOT OFFICIAL about radars.Hope TD watch this video.Can anyone confirm if those stuff are historically correct

The plane is accurate, the panel is accurate - the instrument itself, not so much.

Radar was a lot more primitive back then. See the Bf-110 video to get an idea. The one in the Me-262 also shows the image you would get from a rotating beacon, not a fixed set of "whiskers".

[Tempest123]

I for one would LOVE the UHU to be included

http://christophe.arribat.pagesperso-orange.fr/bird2-he219.jpg

Yeah that would be cool but it was rare. You can't have a nightfighters in the sim without the Mosquito NF, probably the most feared one of all. As I see it there is so much involved in the putting NF in Il2, but even if it only works online I would love it.

-The AI as it is now can see perfectly in the dark, which negates most of the point of nightfighters. The "new dark" from DT should help with human vs human though.
-Lack of british bombers, and effects like exhaust glow and aircraft mounted searchlights.
-The various radars, jammers and other systems unique to each aircraft, and the need for 2 crew to operate the thing, or at least an intelligent AI copilot.