When/what should we post in an Oleg Update thread, and when/what we shouldn't

[Triggaaar]

Most of the latest update thread has been polluted by forum members (inc me) discussing what we should and shouldn't say in those threads.

There are experienced members who have seen all the updates, know what questions have been asked before, know IL2 well, and have a good understanding for what is achievable in a modern PC and what is WIP etc. There are also newer members who haven't seen all the updates, don't know what questions have been asked before, and don't have as good an understanding of the technical limitations of our PCs etc.

This leads to repeat questions, and questions that don't always give the respect the developers deserve (as many of us know how good these developers are, and that basic questions could be seen as insulting). These questions then lead to complaints from some members about the appropriateness of the questions, disagreement about whether it's right that any member appoint themselves as Oleg's moderator etc, and then a plea from Oleg that all the forum members stop bickering (which is obviously a bit embarrassing). Despite this plea, we’ve gone on to discuss what we should and shouldn’t write in the update threads, and when I found myself typing another response to the argument (taking the thread further OT), I thought maybe we should discuss it all in a separate thread.
So if you want to discuss the way we ask questions, and what we should and shouldn’t say in an update thread (or if, like engarde, you think that “every Maddox post should be locked”), perhaps you can discuss it here.

[BadAim]

I think this is actually a great idea, to have a discussion about something off topic in one thread in another one, how novel Triggaaar.:)

Unfortunately I doubt it will do much good, as the trolls will troll, the bitchers will bitch and the self appointed Oleg defenders (like me) will get their panties in a knot over it, then the cycle will repeat itself, ad nauseum.

I suppose we all could try something equally novel and perhaps post only questions and comments on the topic at hand and leave the insults and jousting out.

LOL! I crack myself up! A guy has to dream though.........

[Triggaaar]

I was in the middle of typing in the other thread disagreeing with someone about nothing important, thinking - what am I doing - me posting this is no better than the posts I'm complaining about.
Unfortunately I doubt it will do much good, as the trolls will troll, the bitchers will bitch and the self appointed Oleg defenders (like me) will get their panties in a knot over it, then the cycle will repeat itself, ad nauseum.Well it's really up to the moderators. I love getting updates from the developers. We're really lucky to have someone explain how the game is being developed, and why, and our opinions on what makes a good sim are really listened to by the developers - that just doesn't ever happen. But 60 pages for an up date thread, most of which is us lot talking nonsense. My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question. That will already make a fairly long thread, but we could do without:
a) complaining about the questions of others, going OT etc - that can either be done in another thread, or via a 'report' to a mod that you think someone's question is inappropriate. Or if a question has been asked before and you really want to make a point, just quote the question and provide a link to the answer.
b) discussion over what should and shouldn't be in the thread. Everyone has an opinion, and if we all give OT opinions in an update thread, the thread is ruined.

I'd like it if mods just removed all other posts from an update thread, just siting the reason (eg, OT - post elsewhere).

I suppose we all could try something equally novel and perhaps post only questions and comments on the topic at hand and leave the insults and jousting out.

LOL! I crack myself up! A guy has to dream though.........Indeed, that would be good. And since we're into dream land, I think world peace would be lovely.

[BadAim]

I was in the middle of typing in the other thread disagreeing with someone about nothing important, thinking - what am I doing - me posting this is no better than the posts I'm complaining about.
Well it's really up to the moderators. I love getting updates from the developers. We're really lucky to have someone explain how the game is being developed, and why, and our opinions on what makes a good sim are really listened to by the developers - that just doesn't ever happen. But 60 pages for an up date thread, most of which is us lot talking nonsense. My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question. That will already make a fairly long thread, but we could do without:
a) complaining about the questions of others, going OT etc - that can either be done in another thread, or via a 'report' to a mod that you think someone's question is inappropriate. Or if a question has been asked before and you really want to make a point, just quote the question and provide a link to the answer.
b) discussion over what should and shouldn't be in the thread. Everyone has an opinion, and if we all give OT opinions in an update thread, the thread is ruined.

I'd like it if mods just removed all other posts from an update thread, just siting the reason (eg, OT - post elsewhere).

Indeed, that would be good. And since we're into dream land, I think world peace would be lovely.

World peace.......I thought I was a dreamer. :)

I think for my part, I'll just look up Oleg's responses and quit even reading all the crap, that way I can free up about two hours a day and be much less stressed out to enjoy it.

[KG26_Alpha]

The problem is .............

A lot of forum users see a forum as a place to hurl abuse and troll other members for the sole purpose of starting flame wars and generally disruptive behaviour, they usually have no constructive genuine input or contribution to any threads.

They are easy to spot as they only post negative or critique comments that start other users off on a flaming rampage, or going completely off topic.

Couple that with the fact that a lot of younger generation are a click and "want it want it want it" mindset and have no rational thought of actually thinking about the situation and making a decision for themselves, they will ask inane questions that seem glaringly obvious to a lot of other users because they don't actually have the ability to think for themselves any more (cue Wkipedia/google etc etc).

This leads to the "what's right/wrong" question.

To stop offending comments being posted will be difficult as some users see it as their right to use the forum for that specific reason.

Better administration ?

This is the obvious route to take, we need admins on US/Can & Euro time zones to filter out these offensive off topic posts before they cause damage.

[fruitbat]

The problem is .............


Couple that with the fact that a lot of younger generation are a click and "want it want it want it" mindset and have no rational thought of actually thinking about the situation and making a decision for themselves, they will ask inane questions that seem glaringly obvious to a lot of other users because they don't actually have the ability to think for themselves any more (cue Wkipedia/google etc etc).



quoted for truth....

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually i think that as long as discussing the update or certain features (known/unknown/possible/wishlist), anything should be fair game.

Most of the times discussion devolves into point scoring matches between people because they can't accept a different opinion, not because of the points made.

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue. Even long time forum regulars get caught out by this, especially when responding to a comment that was delivered in a rude way. For example, if someone says he thinks the clouds need work another guy might chime in to say they look fine to him, but if the 1st guy says they suck then the 2nd guy is all the more likely to get sucked into an argument that turns personal.

So, to keep it brief:

1) Give your opinion in a polite manner.

2) Accept opinions different to your own as being another member's personal taste and not a case of right or wrong, especially if they are not rude.

3) The most important point of all. Don't get offensive with people you disagree with or who are being rude themselves. If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.

State your opinion but give them the benefit of doubt.
Don't tell a guy he's an internet fascist, tell him he seems to have trouble accepting different opinions.
Don't tell a guy he's blind, tell him that in your personal interpretation that screenshot looks different.
Don't tell a guy he's asking for useless stuff, tell him about the other features you'd be more interested in and aknowledge that all is subject to hardware compromises.

In short, don't assume an air of superiority, don't pretend your opinion somehow values more, don't act like you know it all, don't act like you know what the developers think or consider useful, don't act like the arbiter of what's worthwhile and what's not to post about, don't pretend to represent others (developers or community members) or speak on their behalf and finally, don't pound the other guy's opinion to the ground and get him all defensive and arguing when you can simply state your own view on things ;)

This is how all these circular arguments start. Someone posts something, anything, and before long there is someone else who disagrees but instead of trying to debate the opinion he sets off trying to ridicule the person instead, from which point on it just goes downhill.

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking. ;)

[Triggaaar]

My (very) personal view is that updates should mainly be for the developers to post, and for us to give reaction, whether it be praise, criticism or a question.

In that sense, saying the clouds are fantastic is just as fine as saying they look bad to you. This is ok to do.

Saying they suck is just like saying that people who don't like them are blind. This is rude and not ok, regardless to whom it is directed (developers or community members).

Jumping on people's throats for saying either of the two is definitely not ok and it's the biggest issue.I share these views. Praise, criticism (polite), questions, or links to answers. That's it.

If you are offended, take it up with a moderator or the other guy via PMs, or state your position in a diplomatic fashion on the main thread. You can put people in their place without cursing and if they do keep being confrontational they end up looking like idiots, not you.Actually, I don't think we should allow users trying to put others in their place at all, as it just goes downhill from there (only my opinion). If someone says they hate the clouds, but you love them, just post your praise, eg, "personally Oleg I love the clouds, looks like a typical British storm" etc, and leave it at that.

I agree with many of your ideas about us all trying to not talk as if we're in a better position to comment than others, but I think that's too hard for people to do.

But regardless of the way I'd like to see it done, it would just be good if the moderators made a decision, and put it in a sticky - this is what you can/can't write in an update thread, anything else will be removed. Because the way it is now, there's too much arguing (even if it is only 5%, I see that as too much), and we run the risk of the development team getting so fed up they stop either giving us updates, or allowing any questions.

[kimosabi]

I think what's posted in the update threads is 95% within what should be posted. It's usually the delivery and the level of tolerance that are lacking. ;)

Totally agree. Internet anonymity does strange things to many people.

[klem]

Only ask questions that are relevant to Oleg's Update thread (see below for other questions)

Ask Oleg to lock his update thread and open another for our questions/discussions with his answers back in his thread, quoting the question. Stops us stamping all over Oleg's posts. Keeps it clean and easy to follow.

Title your post "A Question for Oleg" when you are asking a question so that Oleg can find them easily. Do not do that on other posts.

Keep to the inter-personal guidelines posted in this thread: ask questions, be informative, be helpful, by all means discuss politely, accept that others may post a different view and don't turn it into an argument. Use 'ignore' on persistent offenders.

Revive "Oleg's Questions" for questions not covered by Updates or earlier posts and conduct it the same way as described above.

Anyone want to volunteer to create a locked FAQs from his answers?
(I can't)

[Splitter]

We are over complicating this.

Just write your posts thinking that you are facing the other person and that they could punch you in the mouth for being rude :).

It's often not what is said but HOW it is said.

Really, that's what is missing on this forum and on nearly every other internet forum. People feel anonymous and safe sitting behind their keyboard. They will say things on the internet that they would never say to your face....or they would figure out a much better way to say it to your face anyway. These are the same people that cut you off in traffic and flip you the bird while doing it....they feel perfectly secure in their two tons of vehicle.

Such attitudes show a person's true character.

I swear, when it suddenly became socially unacceptable to punch an idiot in the mouth society took a turn for the worse :).

John Wayne in the Shootist: "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them."

Not a bad thing to keep in mind while posting....

Splitter

[philip.ed]

But why does that person have the right to take Oleg's mantle, or even the mantle of forum moderator, and say that you're post is rude, horrible, rubbish etc ? It might be, but leave that to Oleg to comment as then an argument will just entail. Or, better yet, PM them.

What do you think? I'd be happy to hear what's wrong with this, as topics like this are constructive as long as everyone is humble to eachother.

[ATAG_Dutch]

But why does that person have the right to take Oleg's mantle, or even the mantle of forum moderator, and say that you're post is rude, horrible, rubbish etc ?

They don't. Also 'rude, horrible, rubbish' are entirely subjective terms equally applicable to most politicians.

Just don't rise to the bait.

[kimosabi]

Really, that's what is missing on this forum and on nearly every other internet forum. People feel anonymous and safe sitting behind their keyboard. They will say things on the internet that they would never say to your face....or they would figure out a much better way to say it to your face anyway. These are the same people that cut you off in traffic and flip you the bird while doing it....they feel perfectly secure in their two tons of vehicle.



I'd have to disagree. I'm much more direct and argumentative IRL than on the internet. Well, I don't cut off people in traffic and flip them off but in my opinion, you can't compare the two.

[Spudkopf]

I think it all comes down to limits, it is OK to politely ask your “one or two” questions or make your on topic observations, if you are then fortunate enough to get an official response be greatful and accept that answer and do not then try to push for even more.

If due the language barrier you feel that the response may be not have fully addressed your querry/observation then maybe you just have to learn to accept this fact and move on.

If you still feel so passionate about a particular item then instead of harping on about continually in the update thread, move off and start a new thread where it can live or die on it’s own merits.

I truly believe that if the a subject is worthwhile then the community or the Dev’s will take notice.

Maybe it would also be courteous that before posting questions to at least try and do a forum search to see if the subject has already been addressed.

Sadly truth be known, self control is a virtue that appears to be sadly lacking here!

Lastly the deliberate negative and or obviously rude posts that are the catalyst for much of the issues should not be tolerated and removed.

[klem]

We are over complicating this.

Just write your posts thinking that you are facing the other person and that they could punch you in the mouth for being rude :).
................ People feel anonymous and safe sitting behind their keyboard. They will say things on the internet that they would never say to your face....

I swear, when it suddenly became socially unacceptable to punch an idiot in the mouth society took a turn for the worse :).

Splitter

Splitter, with respect I think your missing the point. You and I might post as you describe, some others never will and that is what is causing a lot of the problems. Some will go along with it and some will not. How can we persuade them? Some of them actually enjoy being controversial and arrogant and its too difficult to police.

The real downside is we lose sight of Olegs views and he of ours. That's why I tried to think of a way to manage the problem by structuring it in a way that keeps the important stuff separated from the dross. We'll alway get the dross but we and Oleg could pick out what we need and leave Olegs update posts clean.

Anyway I doubt if Oleg would be willing to do as I suggest but it was an idea.

"Maybe it would also be courteous that before posting questions to at least try and do a forum search to see if the subject has already been addressed."
Actually I found the Search facility doesn't always turn up the answer. Better to search through Oleg's answers (as I was told how to do). But an FAQ as someone suggested would be just great.

[Splitter]

Splitter, with respect I think your missing the point. You and I might post as you describe, some others never will and that is what is causing a lot of the problems. Some will go along with it and some will not. How can we persuade them? Some of them actually enjoy being controversial and arrogant and its too difficult to police.

The real downside is we lose sight of Olegs views and he of ours. That's why I tried to think of a way to manage the problem by structuring it in a way that keeps the important stuff separated from the dross. We'll alway get the dross but we and Oleg could pick out what we need and leave Olegs update posts clean.

Anyway I doubt if Oleg would be willing to do as I suggest but it was an idea.

"Maybe it would also be courteous that before posting questions to at least try and do a forum search to see if the subject has already been addressed."
Actually I found the Search facility doesn't always turn up the answer. Better to search through Oleg's answers (as I was told how to do). But an FAQ as someone suggested would be just great.

You're not wrong, some people will never change. But maybe the answer is to move or delete rude posts. Maybe if their voice is not being heard they will change tactics.

BTW, I think I have seen a change in some of the posters here so just maybe some things are working a little. We can but hope lol.

Splitter

[Spudkopf]

"Maybe it would also be courteous that before posting questions to at least try and do a forum search to see if the subject has already been addressed."
Actually I found the Search facility doesn't always turn up the answer. Better to search through Oleg's answers (as I was told how to do). But an FAQ as someone suggested would be just great.

Klem

Sadly due to my geographical location the Friday updates are usually a Saturday morning update for me and by the time I get to have a look the thread it has usually either blown out or self destructed due mass debates (pun intended) that clutter the thread, so I have to resort to the Oleg filter to see what’s going on, which means I might actually miss out on stuff that could still be relevant, but that’s something I just have to live with.

[BadAim]

I'd have to disagree. I'm much more direct and argumentative IRL than on the internet. Well, I don't cut off people in traffic and flip them off but in my opinion, you can't compare the two.

I think Splitter was referring to normal people, Mate. Not thinking people (In which category I [mostly] place you BTW :) ). Fortunately IMO flight sims tend to attract more of the latter than the former. Reason has, to the detriment of all society, gone out of fashion methinks.

If we reasonable people conspire to "ignore to death" the fools among us, things might take a turn for the better....it sure as hell beats joining them. (and I count myself amongst the guilty)

[WTE_Galway]

http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QYXz9wqEkLc/TAb8uwe4PDI/AAAAAAAAA_U/vdGrzjZjR7E/s1600/Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png

http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/gio/CS99I/figures/DogInternet_075.gif

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MM5nQUnx1_o/R1MbGTvpQqI/AAAAAAAAAAU/7apE0af3v4o/s1600-R/svYOUTUBE_wideweb__470x468,0.jpg

[Splitter]

Hey Galway,

You and I fit the profile for the second cartoon lol. I printed that one out for my wife some time ago :).

Splitter

[KOM.Nausicaa]

This forum needs a more present and more sever moderation. It's a pain for more than 80% of the users here -- and for Oleg and others from 1C -- to wade through childish flame wars in the update threads. This forum is not like any other on the internet -- it's a privileged meeting point with a developer. You could think of it as being invited into Oleg's office if you wish. If anything, this forum should be more severely moderated than others, and not the other way around.

[Blackdog_kt]

If you still feel so passionate about a particular item then instead of harping on about continually in the update thread, move off and start a new thread where it can live or die on it’s own merits.


That's actually very good advice. When people where debating systems modelling and clickable cockpits we took it up in a different thread. It ended up being more focused, it highlighted the real issue of why people wanted such features, plus if enough of them wanted it (via a poll).
In the end we got both of these features, systems modelling as a difficulty setting and clickable cockpits as an interface option, which means that everyone can choose what they want to use instead of forcing their preferences on one another. It was a very good outcome for everyone and showed what's the proper way to go about it.

As for moderation now, i agree that having 2-3 members of the 1c staff on the job would be good. Nearmiss is a volunteer and while he's doing a reasonable job (commendable even, concering the circumstances), he's one guy doing it out of his own free time and he can't be expected to be everywhere all the time.

Having a bit stricter moderation in the update threads by actual 1c employees would help things a bit.

Moderation is a big subject however, as it tends to be a double edged sword. On one hand, a company employee might be prone to silencing people who don't follow the "party line", on the other one a community member might be prone to silencing people who don't agree with his personal opinion. It's very difficult to find moderators that actually punish bad form and bad manners instead of difference of opinion.

That being said, i think that in the case of this company and with their proven track record of patience and community interaction, having moderators that are part of the company staff would not result in muffling out the voices of those who are critical of the games produced. After all, they do seem to value the input even if it's not all praises.

[swiss]

I would suggest something else:

Oleg can't and doesn't answer all the questions anyway. If you lock or extensively mod thread you lose the discussion, which not always, but sometimes goes a very interesting way.


But, what if there was a second (locked)thread where a mod or whoever just posts the Q&(answered-)A of the update.

Post1: Oleg's update
Post2: a selected question and Olegs answer to it.
P3=P2


In fact you could add each Friday update in this thread, what you get is a clean, full of info, focused thread.

[Hecke]

But, what if there was a second (locked)thread where a mod or whoever just posts the Q&(answered-)A of the update.

Post1: Oleg's update
Post2: a selected question and Olegs answer to it.
P3=P2



I like the idea but I doubt the moderators have the time or the enthusiasm for that.

[klem]

Klem

Sadly due to my geographical location the Friday updates are usually a Saturday morning update for me and by the time I get to have a look the thread it has usually either blown out or self destructed due mass debates (pun intended) that clutter the thread, so I have to resort to the Oleg filter to see what’s going on, which means I might actually miss out on stuff that could still be relevant, but that’s something I just have to live with.

Yes sadly that's sometimes the case with me even in UK by the time I get to it.

"User moderation", "Open a new thread"... it just won't happen with some.

I'm coming to the conclusion we can't control this. I also think things will improve of we ignore the naff posts. If we can't get co-operation then as Spudkopf said we may just have to rely on the Oleg's Replies filter and remember the last one we read. It took me ages to go through the 20 pages, something like 300 posts :(

As to the original question, "What questions should we ask..." I think anything you like if it hasn't been asked before but keep in in the context of the Thread. "Update...." or "Oleg's Questions"