Helicopters?! will it ever be possible?

[sorak]

How about add some helicopters.. how awesome would this be to this combat simulator. I would love it.. and i would love shooting them down also. What do you think?

[swiss]

How about add some helicopters.. how awesome would this be to this combat simulator. I would love it.. and i would love shooting them down also. What do you think?

in 1940?

are you drunk?

[sorak]

in 1940?

are you drunk?

So your saying there was no helicopters in the 1940's ? are you on crack-cocaine?

[swiss]

So your saying there was no helicopters in the 1940's ?


Exactly - in 1940(without pl "s").
Some Prototypes maybe, but in service, no.


are you on crack-cocaine?

Sorry, haven't done any coke in the last 3 years. Why, are you selling?

[sorak]

Exactly - in 1940(without pl "s").
Some Prototypes maybe, but in service, no.

Sorry, haven't done any coke in the last 3 years. Why, are you selling?

Here is just one. And it even starred in the famous MASH tv show.
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Midland2006/Highlights/Bell47Midland2006.jpg

No more crack for you.

[zapatista]

not sure if there were "helicopters" in 1939-1940 period, but oleg already indicated they had intended to included some gyrocopter (autogyro) in BoB

so the answer is yes, it is possible, and i think is already included (presuming they finished that aircraft bug free in time, if not it should be in an update patch soon), and presuming you dont mind flying a gyrocopter instead of an helicopter :)

a little history on the topic:

If we except Leonardo da Vinci drawings, the history of rotary wings goes way back. In 1784, Launois and Bienvenue, two French physicians, presented to Paris Academy of Science the model of "a device with propeller that could fly". On August 21, 1907, the Breguet brothers and professor Richet would test the first 4-rotor aircraft, that was able to hoover 1 meter above the ground. Sure, it could not really fly... yet !

Just after the first World war, a few pilots found that flying these strange fixed-wings machines could be somewhat dangerous, due to their incredible ability to stall and to kill their pilots.

Some of them decided to research aircrafts that could not stall at all - therefore making flight safer. We could name there in France Henri Mignet, whose "living wing" would prove to be a safe concept for conventional aircrafts.

But, in parallel, in Spain, Juan de la Cierva took another direction: he believed that a "rotating wing" would do the trick. And it did, indeed ! Juan would become, after many trials and prototypes, the founder of the gyrocopter aircraft category. He would cross the Channel in flight in 1928.

Development of the gyrocopter continued between the two wars, both in Europe and the USA. During WWII - an often forgotten history - they saw active duty, for instance as the mean for calibrating British radars, or as trailed observers on German submarines.

In parallel, the development of the helicopter, which did not saw anything really flying until 1937, continued as well.

Mainly for psychological reasons, the helicopter would then take over the gyrocopter for a good decade - military and civils alike not really understanding how a free-rotating rotor could, much more safely than a powered one, ensure the sustentation of an aircraft.


ps: sorak, the MASH show is from the korean war period in the 1950's ;)

this website has a good brief history on the topic, including differences between gyrocpters and helicopters http://www.phenix.aero/PHE-1200.html

[sorak]

not sure if there were "helicopters" in 1939-1940 period, but oleg already indicated they had intended to included some gyrocopter (autogyro) in BoB

so the answer is yes, it is possible, and i think is already included (presuming they finished that aircraft bug free in time, if not it should be in an update patch soon), and presuming you dont mind flying a gyrocopter instead of an helicopter :)

a little history on the topic:



ps: sorak, the MASH show is from the korean war period in the 1950's ;)



Still.. the actual helicopter came from the 40's

Game doesnt have to stay in the early 40's either..


but very cool that gyrocopters will be in it !

[Hoverbug]

not sure if there were "helicopters" in 1939-1940 period, but oleg already indicated they had intended to included some gyrocopter (autogyro) in BoB

so the answer is yes, it is possible, and i think is already included (presuming they finished that aircraft bug free in time, if not it should be in an update patch soon)

a little history on the topic:

The first Hoverfly Is reached the UK at the beginning of 1944. German Fl 282s and Fa 223s were in various forms of service test from 1942 on, but never reached a true operational capability. Their primary contribution to the German war effort was evading capture by advancing allied armies. The U.S. Was the only nation with a true operational helicopter capability with deployments to the Far East from mid '44 on. In the interests of self-aggrandisement, here's an article I wrote on the subject: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Medevac-From-Luzon.html

[Hoverbug]

Here is just one. And it even starred in the famous MASH tv show.
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Midland2006/Highlights/Bell47Midland2006.jpg

No more crack for you.

That 47G post-dates the Korean War (the fuel tanks are the give-away). The H-13 didn't appear until after WWII. Project Galba could feature Bell H-13/HTL, Sikorsky H-5/HO3S-1, HO5S-1, H-19/HRS and Hiller H-23s.

[Avimimus]

SoW:BoB is planned to have a Cierva autogyro in it. The autogyro may even become flyable.

This may well pave the way for a Kamov A-7 autogyro (the most heavily armed autogyro to see service during the war...)

[Hoverbug]

Still.. the actual helicopter came from the 40's

Game doesnt have to stay in the early 40's either..


but very cool that gyrocopters will be in it !

Britain, France, the Soviet Union and Japan all employed autogiros on the battlefield in WWII. Their wartime contribution was fairly inconsequential, though Japan claimed an American sub sunk by a Kayaba (seems like a stretch).

[swiss]

Still.. the actual helicopter came from the 40's

Game doesnt have to stay in the early 40's either..


but very cool that gyrocopters will be in it !


So you were talking about future add-on like Korea - an not Bob?

Sure.... lol

[zapatista]

i think the German Focke-Wulf Fw 61 might technically be labled a helicopter and not gyrocopter (and made its initial flight in June 1936) , but somebody with more factual knowledge might want to comment

As a class of vehicle the helicopter had no single inventor, any more than the fixed-wing aeroplane did. Much of the credit for the modern helicopter goes, deservedly, to Igor Sikorsky; but in Britain, France, Italy, Germany and the U.S.S.R. contemporaries of Sikorsky all produced significant designs well before the historic VS-300 had left the ground.

High on the short list of helicopter pioneers must come the name of Doktor Heinrich Karl Johann Focke, whose Fw 61 made its first free flight, lasting 28 seconds, on 26 June 1936. This was, coincidentally, exactly one year after the less-publicised flight of the Breguet-Dorand machine, which can thus claim to have been the first really practical helicopter to have flown in Europe. But the Fw 61, once it had begun to fly, rapidly proved itself a much superior machine to the Breguet, not only as regards performance but as a practical basic design capable of much further development.

The Focke-Achgelis GmbH was an offshoot of the Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau, established after Focke had been dismissed from the latter company by the Nazis as a political embarrassment. Focke's first experience of rotorcraft construction and operation was gained from building the Cierva C.19 and C.30 autogiros under licence, and then in 1934 he built and flew successfully a scale model helicopter that rose to a height of some 18m. There followed a period of research into, and testing of, rotor and transmission systems before, in 1936, the Fw 61 prototype made its appearance.

http://www.aviastar.org/foto/fw-61.jpg

from http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/fw-61.php

[Hoverbug]

i think the German Focke-Wulf Fw 61 might technically be labled a helicopter and not gyrocopter (and made its initial flight in June 1936) , but somebody with more factual knowledge might want to comment



http://www.aviastar.org/foto/fw-61.jpg

from http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/fw-61.php

Yes, it's often regarded as the first "successful" helicopter (whatever that means). Only two were built and it's primary service to the Third Reich was for propaganda. It eventually led to the Fa 223, which was a promising, if over-complex design that never lived up to its potential, given that Germany had more serious concerns than helicopter production by 1942.

[=69.GIAP=TOOZ]

Hanna Reitsch flies the Fw61:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDZxXheJGnU

[leggit]

someone shoot him. please...oleg already said fly saucers will be in the first bob update.

[WTE_Galway]

someone shoot him. please...oleg already said fly saucers will be in the first bob update.

I want one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0E6Yh_mSx8&

[OberstDanjeje]

At SAS there are helicopters and jetman.....

[zapatista]

Hanna Reitsch flies the Fw61:

slightly disturbing to see how she gets tittilated and exited speaking about the memories of her beloved nazi general and the warmongering industrialists

[swiss]

someone shoot him. please...oleg already said fly saucers will be in the first bob update.

It's actually a bundle since it comes with nazi-ufo-base Antarctica map.

[ChrisDNT]

There were some early Sikorski operationally used for rescue duties in Birmany during WWII.

[Hoverbug]

slightly disturbing to see how she gets tittilated and exited speaking about the memories of her beloved nazi general and the warmongering industrialists

Yep...she was a true believer to the end.

[Blackdog_kt]

Actually it's a good question and would be a beneficial addition to the sim, far from being in the same league as antartica-based UFOs or other fantasy scenarios.

After all he didn't demand a chopper on release, he just asked if it's possible to some day have choppers in the simulator's engine which, judging from the long-confirmed knowledge of an upcoming Korean war add-on, is something that would be useful in the context of it.

New mission builder triggers + cessna o-1 birddogs + skyraider + helicopters = awesome pilot rescue missions in multiplayer ;)

[zapatista]

The U.S. Was the only nation with a true operational helicopter capability with deployments to the Far East from mid '44 on. In the interests of self-aggrandisement, here's an article I wrote on the subject: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Medevac-From-Luzon.html

interesting read, thx for posting it !

[engarde]

i know! I know!

NINJAS !

They TOTALLY should be in too!

YEAH !

[Avimimus]

Actually it's a good question and would be a beneficial addition to the sim, far from being in the same league as antartica-based UFOs or other fantasy scenarios.


Well Autogyros did play an important part in the Battle of Britain.

They were also active in the lead up to the Battle of Moscow.

Helicopters proper were also used in Korea.

So the only place (for which a sim is planned) where rotary winged aircraft are completely out of place is the Mediterranean.

[Blackdog_kt]

i know! I know!

NINJAS !

They TOTALLY should be in too!

YEAH !

What part of "planned Korean war add-on" is giving you comprehension troubles? :-P

Just because it's not a priority for BoB doesn't mean it's a completely useless addition. We already have an autogyro in SoW after all and all they did was calibrate radars which were, oh i don't know, maybe one of the most important tools in deciding the battle's outcome? ;)

Sure, most probably we'll only be flying it on custom made missions with triggers and it won't have much combat relevance, but it's such an exotic aircraft that finding a valid excuse to include it in the planeset is a noteworthy decision.

To be honest, i've reached a point where i'm more interested in studying and flying the aircraft, whatever that may be, instead of just engaging into combat with no real knowledge of what i'm driving and why it works the way it does. If triggered objectives are incorporated into a revised multiplayer mode with long-running campaigns, i think i'll be spending much more time flying weird planes or weird missions, at the very least multi-engined bombers, than duking it out in single seaters every single time. Depending on the success of the series and what future add-ons might bring, i think i'll be spending most of my time chasing U-boats in a Catalina, flying agents to France in a Lysander, flying photo-recon, marking targets as a pathfinder or going on raids with Mosquitos. In 18 years of simming i've seen all kinds of simulated single seater combat, it's the obscure stuff i'm itching to know about now.

Who knows, maybe i'm getting old, but i've come to appreciate the satisfaction i get when getting a win almost purely due to superior planning instead of superior combat skill :-P

Interesting info about the Soviet autogyros as well Avinimus, i had no idea they were used in combat or even existed for that matter.

[Triggaaar]

slightly disturbing to see how she gets tittilated and exited speaking about the memories of her beloved nazi general and the warmongering industrialistsAh the good ol' days. If it weren't for those pesky allies ruining everything, the world would be so much better now, free from man's failures.

[Sven]

SoW:BoB is planned to have a Cierva autogyro in it. The autogyro may even become flyable.

This may well pave the way for a Kamov A-7 autogyro (the most heavily armed autogyro to see service during the war...)

haha that thing could actually attack efficiently? it looks funny to say the least:grin: would be very cool to have, but I´d rather have more variants of the BF-109 or more flyables then concentrating on a autogyro system integrated in the BATTLE OF BRITAIN, I can see why you want this for further addons, and I believe there will be..

If you want to fly a helicopter try KA-50 Black Shark, good fun if you really like helicopters.

[Ltbear]

There is an old helo sim out there that not many knows about. It had major bugs, and the missions felt static and was over fast but the imersion of it was great...whirlwinds over vietnam......

When 1c dropped it from there site i desperatly tryed to get my hands on some of the tools (was werry simulare to Tiger vs T-34 in structure) but i failed....

That helo sim had potentional, i knew what i would do with it but hit a brick wall trying to talk to the devs.....

There is nothing like a UH-1 gunship flying over jungle with everything from miniguns to rockets blazing.....

if anyone read this and who have some contact to the team behind Whirlwind over vietnam please send me PM....i stil would like to bug fix and mod the crackzz out of that game....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-34U_MRfI

Ltbear

[winny]

There is an old helo sim out there that not many knows about. It had major bugs, and the missions felt static and was over fast but the imersion of it was great...whirlwinds over vietnam......

When 1c dropped it from there site i desperatly tryed to get my hands on some of the tools (was werry simulare to Tiger vs T-34 in structure) but i failed....

That helo sim had potentional, i knew what i would do with it but hit a brick wall trying to talk to the devs.....

There is nothing like a UH-1 gunship flying over jungle with everything from miniguns to rockets blazing.....

if anyone read this and who have some contact to the team behind Whirlwind over vietnam please send me PM....i stil would like to bug fix and mod the crackzz out of that game....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-34U_MRfI

Ltbear

Is that 'The' LZ X-Ray they're talking about in that video? The Ia Drang one?

[Avimimus]

haha that thing could actually attack efficiently? it looks funny to say the least:grin: would be very cool to have, but I´d rather have more variants of the BF-109 or more flyables then concentrating on a autogyro system integrated in the BATTLE OF BRITAIN, I can see why you want this for further addons, and I believe there will be..

If you want to fly a helicopter try KA-50 Black Shark, good fun if you really like helicopters.

No, I'll never forgive DCS:BS ;)

Without a top-of-the-line joystick it is impossible to effectively deploy unguided rockets in that sim. With a top-of-the-line joystick it is supposed to be almost as hard.

I still fly it sometimes - without any weapons.

I like rockets.

As for Autogyro's, Oleg implied many months ago that he had tried flying one and it is supposed to be a very intriguing experience. I'd prefer a flyable lysander, but civil aviation has its charms.

[bf-110]

Hey kids,for what I konw,the R-4 was used in pacific.
The Kayaba IDK how much was.

And I found two videos of the matter.I would said it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBz3C0xKbdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXpLl3rLBDQ&feature=related

[Oleg Maddox]

not sure if there were "helicopters" in 1939-1940 period, but oleg already indicated they had intended to included some gyrocopter (autogyro) in BoB



Yes we are developing autogyro that was in a service of many european countries, including UK, Germany and Italy. And it was built by license from Italy :)

I hope to get it in release. Flyable. Two seater.

Russians also used own autogyro A-7... and someone also started it in the past for Il-2, but not finished.
A7 used in a Battle for Moscow.

[Oleg Maddox]

Hey kids,for what I konw,the R-4 was used in pacific.
The Kayaba IDK how much was.

And I found two videos of the matter.I would said it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBz3C0xKbdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXpLl3rLBDQ&feature=related

Cool! :):):)
Interesting to try the FM they did :):)

[sorak]

Actually it's a good question and would be a beneficial addition to the sim, far from being in the same league as antartica-based UFOs or other fantasy scenarios.

After all he didn't demand a chopper on release, he just asked if it's possible to some day have choppers in the simulator's engine which, judging from the long-confirmed knowledge of an upcoming Korean war add-on, is something that would be useful in the context of it.

New mission builder triggers + cessna o-1 birddogs + skyraider + helicopters = awesome pilot rescue missions in multiplayer ;)

Yes yes.. thanks for clearing that up for me man.. i just think it would bring a whole new nice little gameplay into it too. (not that I dont like the current gameplay). Plus, Ive been craving a good modern combat helicopter simulator for a while now. I know Oleg could do it!

[sorak]

There is an old helo sim out there that not many knows about. It had major bugs, and the missions felt static and was over fast but the imersion of it was great...whirlwinds over vietnam......

When 1c dropped it from there site i desperatly tryed to get my hands on some of the tools (was werry simulare to Tiger vs T-34 in structure) but i failed....

That helo sim had potentional, i knew what i would do with it but hit a brick wall trying to talk to the devs.....

There is nothing like a UH-1 gunship flying over jungle with everything from miniguns to rockets blazing.....

if anyone read this and who have some contact to the team behind Whirlwind over vietnam please send me PM....i stil would like to bug fix and mod the crackzz out of that game....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-34U_MRfI

Ltbear

awww man thats cool

[AndyJWest]

Shhh Oleg. They don't like people talking about mods here. ;)

Well, seeing as you've mentioned them, I'l probably just about get away with saying that they are a pig to fly well, at least to start with. So probably accurate in that regard at least. Apparently the modders struggled for months to get them to work, but they seem to handle more or less correctly, from what real chopper pilots have said. I'm sure someone will tell you where to find them, so give it a go. :grin:

[sorak]

hey kids,for what i konw,the r-4 was used in pacific.
The kayaba idk how much was.

And i found two videos of the matter.i would said it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbz3c0xkbdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axpll3rlbdq&feature=related



w o w

[sorak]

Yes we are developing autogyro that was in a service of many european countries, including UK, Germany and Italy. And it was built by license from Italy :)

I hope to get it in release. Flyable. Two seater.

Russians also used own autogyro A-7... and someone also started it in the past for Il-2, but not finished.
A7 used in a Battle for Moscow.


That is very awesome Oleg. Wooo hooo

[bf-110]

Er...do you think Oleg got angry?

[sorak]

Er...do you think Oleg got angry?

angry about what?
What are you talking about

[GAE_Charrua]

Creator Channel "Falkiten"
http://www.youtube.com/user/flakiten#p/a/u/1/bonRbt4JJ2U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bonRbt4JJ2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYmhP8dnuGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LnNh45AWq4&feature=player_embedded
Beautiful bird
S!

[bf-110]

That was more than quite impressive!
But S-55 is too late for WWII...

[Blackdog_kt]

slightly disturbing to see how she gets tittilated and exited speaking about the memories of her beloved nazi general and the warmongering industrialists

I just watched the interview by the way, i had forgotten about it.

To tell you the truth i don't know what her political beliefs were, but she didn't come off that way to me. What i saw was an old lady who had done some pretty impressive stuff in her day and even in her old age being enthusiastic about aviation and technology.

I don't know if she was a member of the party but simply flight testing some stuff doesn't make her an accomplice, just like explaining relativity doesn't make Einstein responsible for Hiroshima.

The way it usually happens is that scientists, engineers and testers collaborate to give us all sorts of useful new things that the governments will later use in the wrong way, usually to kill each other off :-P

Also, the general she refers to was Ernst Udet. I think he was not a member of the nazi party, or at least was a secret objector to the regime, as he ended up taking his own life in 1941 or thereabouts. It's the same Ernst Udet that started flying in WWI at the age of 16, became an ace and survived the war, toured the US in the 30s giving aerobatic and aviation performances and so on.
Come to think of it, a guy who has lived such an interesting and accomplished life and managed to defy death in so many occasions, must have been either terribly depressed or very disagreeable to the way things were being done to end up commiting suicide.

[AndyJWest]

Hanna Reitsch was hardly an innocent 'scientist, engineer or tester' during the Third Reich:
During the winter 1943-44, she was assigned to the development of suicide aircraft; and, under the command of SS-Obersturmbannfürer Otto Skorzeny, she was the first founding member of the SS-Selbstopferkommando Leonidas (Leonidas Squadron). This project, where the pilots flew manned bombs and ultimately died during the mission, was similar to the Japanese later use of Tokkōtai ("Kamikaze") and was proposed by Adolf Hitler on 28 February 1944. It is probable that the idea originated with Reitsch during her testing of the Messerschmitt Me 163 in 1942, and she was also the first to volunteer for the newly formed Leonidas unit. This program was met with a considerable resistance at the German air-force high-command and was never realized, and even Hitler was initially reluctant to accept her proposal. The unit was disbanded one year later.

...

[In April 1945] Reitsch was soon captured along with von Greim and the two were interviewed together by American military intelligence officers. When asked about being ordered to leave the Fuhrerbunker on 28 April 1945 Reitsch and von Greim reportedly repeated the same answer, "It was the blackest day when we could not die at our Führer's side." Reitsch also said, "We should all kneel down in reverence and prayer before the altar of the Fatherland." When the interviewers asked what she meant by "Altar of the Fatherland" she answered, "Why, the Führer's bunker in Berlin..." She was held and interrogated for eighteen months. Her companion, von Greim, committed suicide on 24 May. Her father killed her mother, her sister, and her sister's children before killing himself during the last days of the war after expulsion by the Polish from their hometown of Hirschberg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanna_Reitsch

[GAE_Charrua]

We can make a long list of justifications for including
these beautiful birds in WWII

The S55 = korea :grin:
S!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/Aircraft/Flettner-282.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdYPQLvuJh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARN2kjjL6So&feature

@ Oleg
Oleg sorry for talking about these birds modeled, is that I enjoy many of these birds in flight simulator. As many as IL2 or Stuka
If you're upset I delete my answers.
Greetings

Off topic
Boys Do not deface this topic with discussions that do not correspond.
Greetings

[ImpalerNL]

You guys know that helicopters didnt play any significant role in ww2??

[Ravenous]

Am I the only one here who remembers that Oleg said that SOW's engine is made in such a way as to include coding for technology that is modern?
What I mean is that I seem to remember him using 'Nam and even some modern tech as examples of what the engine is capable of, so I'm crossing my fingers that I some day will be able to get an order to skim the treetops in my AH-1W Cobra from my flightleader:)
A Sandy, F-4 and a couple of Mig's would keep me busy for quite a while, but flying an AH would be really REALLY cool if the series ever goes to 'Nam:)

[Avimimus]

It is actually much more likely than the jets (much less avionics etc.)

My own guess is that Oleg and is programmers wanted to try pushing their flight model and thought it would be fun to have something that goes "whirrrrr". Autogyros just happen to fit the correct time period.

It is interesting that my guess about the A-7 being a possibility for SoW:BoM appears to be right (although Oleg has only hinted that it might not be inappropriate for the map).

[kimosabi]

I'd love to shoot down choppers in SoW. There wasn't that many around during WW2 though so including them shouldn't exactly be a priority IMO.

[JG27CaptStubing]

Here is just one. And it even starred in the famous MASH tv show.
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Midland2006/Highlights/Bell47Midland2006.jpg

No more crack for you.

Mash took place in the Korean War... Just a few years difference than WWII and BOB