Why Head Tracking?

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm sure this has been done before, but I've noticed in other threads that some people have head tracking, some don't, some might think it's not worth the expense for the benefit it brings, and some simply haven't got around to it yet.

So I thought I'd post a short clip, from an avid IL2 fan rather than from the manufacturers, which I hope shows the improvements in immersion, tactical advantage, and situational awareness that it brings.

Of course, I had to do it in a BoB scenario...............:)

Hope you find it useful,

Dutch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQa3664qvR0

[Feuerfalke]

I agree that TrackIR is a very vital and immersive tool, but isn't your video a bit unfair? After all, it's not TrackIR vs without TrackIR, it's TrackIR vs fixed forward view. ;)

[Feuerfalke]

You can disable TrackIR anytime, as well as you can reduce the ammount of movement with hotkeys.

[AdMan]

I do the same thing with my left hand on a trackball mouse and my right hand on the stick, without 6dof of course but I also dont get a stiff neck or have to strap anything onto my head

[pupo162]

i dont use track ir and my gameplay looks more like the second run than the " fixed camera one" - mosue has been around for longer than track ir...

good video tough,

[KG26_Alpha]

I find TiR makes me nauseas in IL2.

I use and prefer the mouse in left hand MSFFB2 in the right and key board to my far left.

The advantage as a mud mover for me is I can leave the mouse set in a fixed point looking in target area direction.

Some pilots say they cant fly without TiR , I find those ones usually cursing on comms that TiR has stopped working or has got stuck :)

IIRC there's some alternatives out there to TiR that look like fun to develop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONOy53hOuwA&feature=player_embedded

[ATAG_Dutch]

i dont use track ir and my gameplay looks more like the second run than the " fixed camera one" - mosue has been around for longer than track ir...

So post a video.

[WTE_Galway]

If for some reason my trackIR is not available I just do not fly. Might as well fly without a joystick.

Aside from combat SA, I actually find it a huge advantage when mud moving and scud running below tree top level.

[Jimko]

I'll second that. I couldn't possibly enjoy a flight sim without TrackIR. After flying without it for many years and now having used it for a couple of years , it's an absolute must! I use the Track Clip Pro which is attached to the side of my stereo headset.

Please tell me that SoW will support TrackIR...:!:

[Blackdog_kt]

I've had one for a couple of years. I was between getting a mid-range Hotas like the Saitek X52 or getting a TrackIR, went with the latter and didn't regret it.

That being said, while it's easier to keep your eyes where you want it takes some getting used to. Plus, it won't make you a better pilot, just a better informed one. I found out i still sucked at scissors after getting a TrackIR just like i did before getting one ;)

Having flown without one for many years i think it's entirely possible to fly and do reasonably well, it just takes more effort to do so.

[Qpassa]

It is a must have, I own a Track Ir 4.
If you want free, you can make a FreeTrack, or use Headmouse:
http://nipg.inf.elte.hu/headmouse/headmouse.html
I used this and didnt maked me a bad result

[LukeFF]

I couldn't go back to flying without TrackIR once I got used to it. It's that good of a piece of hardware.

[Letum]

I only use my tracking system in locked pit servers.
I find the mouse of more use with externals on.

Even on locked pit I find it equally easy to hold the base of my stick between my thumb and fore finger of my left hand and the throttle in the palm of my hand whilst I mouse view with my right hand.
When I need some extra authority on the control, or I need to fire, I swap my mouse hand over to the stick.
That probably sounds complex, difficult or unnatural, but I find it very easy.
I certainly never loose targets through disorientation.



I love my head tracking system, but that's mostly because it's more immerse, not because it gives any advantage over my mouse.
That said, if your less handy with a mouse, hat, or other viewing system, I can see head tracking being very, very useful.

I also love that it only cast me £10 to make. ;)

[T}{OR]

I've flown on mostly full put servers, and never used anything but POV hat on my MSFFB2, and it didn't bother me.

But, I am seriously considering TrackIR + VectorClip for the SoW since will support 6DOF.

[KG26_Alpha]

I agree that TrackIR is a very vital and immersive tool, but isn't your video a bit unfair? After all, it's not TrackIR vs without TrackIR, it's TrackIR vs fixed forward view. ;)

Well .......................

+1

[winny]

What has fairness got to do with it? It's a demonstration of TIR isn't it?

Why is that unfair?

[Erkki]

I havent (personally) found much need for a TIR. It probably smooths the learning curve a lot, but I have the insta-turning snap views and mouse so deep in spine and muscle memory I dont feel any kind of need for it... Stick in right hand, left for mouse & keyboard, feet on pedals. I have the unfair advantage of being both-handed however, I write with left, throw with right, mouse naturally in left, stick in right. ATM I dont think a TIR would increase SA much at all and help in scissoring etc. would be minimal as well, but its probably great for immersion, and helps newcomers.

[SEE]

I use 6DOF Freetrack which works superbly well and cost me £12-00. (Fitted to my headphones which I always use anyway!). The difference is that I now fly in Pit view which I always struggled with using the POV hat Unfortunately, it has become so essential for me that I am totally dependent on it. I can control the views and switch between fixed centre view, 2 - 4 and 6 Dof by assigning these to the redundant POV switch.......best add on you can have for a flight sim (IMO) but not every one will like it so using something like Freetrack is an excellent opportunity to try 'headtracking' out - particularly if you want to fly in cockpit view. If you like open view then stick with the POV!

[pupo162]

So post a video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxrBiJt186M - Dutch_851 this video was noit made for shoewing off what you would like to see but i hope you cna get an idea of my point

notes:

see 0:12 1:13 1:30
dont see: msot of the fw shoots were i dont follow my target since i edited the track to make it fix cam, for gunnery show off.

cheers

[PE_Tigar]

I've flown on mostly full put servers, and never used anything but POV hat on my MSFFB2, and it didn't bother me.

But, I am seriously considering TrackIR + VectorClip for the SoW since will support 6DOF.

I've decided to buy TIR 4 rather late, but wouldn't fly without it now. Immersion up immensely. The whining about "my TIR stopped working" etc. is largely a thing of the past, and in many cases the problem is in the wetware. 6DOF - I like being able to use it sometimes, many times it's not worth it though, precise shooting becomes an issue when it's on. For those that fly planes with asymmetrical gunsight positions 6DOF will be a major PITA I reckon.

[albx]

I couldn't go back to flying without TrackIR once I got used to it. It's that good of a piece of hardware.

agree, the only difference is that i use freetrack (a forbidden word here? :rolleyes:)

[swiss]

Has anyone tried both, FT and TIR?

What's the verdict?

[Letum]

Has anyone tried both, FT and TIR?

What's the verdict?


Yup.

Tried TIR 4 and am currently running freetrack.
The pros and cons run something like this:

Freetrack

++ Cheep (~£6 + the cost of a cheep webcam)
+ Slightly more customizable software
+ Tracks great when set up right! As good as TIR4 for me

-- You need to build a LED device
- Software profiles are a lot of hassle to get right
- Webcams use some processing power that make it unsuitable for single core machines (you can get around this by using a wii remote. Not a problem on medium-high end machines)
- Software has occasional bugs

Track IR

++ Almost plug and play, little hassle
+ Tracks great!
+ Minimal CPU usage

-- Quite expensive
- Sometimes sensitive to sunlight (TIR4, dunno about TIR5. I had this problem with freetrack to, but it was easy to fix with a stronger light filter)

[Qpassa]

Yup.

Tried TIR 4 and am currently running freetrack.
The pros and cons run something like this:

Freetrack

++ Cheep (~£6 + the cost of a cheep webcam)
+ Slightly more customizable software
+ Tracks great when set up right! As good as TIR4 for me

-- You need to build a LED device
- Software profiles are a lot of hassle to get right
- Webcams use some processing power that make it unsuitable for single core machines (you can get around this by using a wii remote. Not a problem on medium-high end machines)
- Software has occasional bugs

Track IR

++ Almost plug and play, little hassle
+ Tracks great!
+ Minimal CPU usage

-- Quite expensive
- Sometimes sensitive to sunlight (TIR4, dunno about TIR5. I had this problem with freetrack to, but it was easy to fix with a stronger light filter)

Well I doesnt work with a Cheap Webcam, you should buy a Wiimote 30€~. I have not had any issues with sunlight

[kimosabi]

I couldn't go back to flying without TrackIR once I got used to it. It's that good of a piece of hardware.

QFT

I tried using hatswitch once after I got used to the TiR but I'm useless without TiR now. I can't believe why some people keep stalling getting a TiR for no other reason than scepticism.

[KG26_Alpha]

QFT

I can't believe why some people keep stalling getting a TiR for no other reason than scepticism.

And the fact TiR 5 is $170.00 :)

[Artist]

Sunlight *is* a problem, when the window is at one's back (=the wii or camera pointing at the window...)

[swiss]

I bought a TIR3 cam to try out with FT, now I managed to make this combo work - but only it works reliable in the FT gui.
(TIR Software works too, but due to the different positions(I guess) of the LEDs its feedback sux)
When I try it in IL2, I got major issues with stuttering.

Solution anyone?

[imaca]

Have been curious about TIR, but just too expensive for something I probably wouldn't like. The only advantage to me is 6DOF.
A hat with modifier button can easily be set up to give 17 view positions operated with just 1 thumb, and (for me) is totally instinctive to use. Personally I would be more inclined towards getting a throttle with second hat to use for the other 3DOF.
The nervous system of the hands have the amazing ability to learn tasks, and then offload control of them from the conscious mind (as any musician knows).
By contrast, head control seems very awkward. I can't think of any other system (except for disabled) that uses it.

[albx]

Have been curious about TIR, but just too expensive for something I probably wouldn't like. The only advantage to me is 6DOF.
A hat with modifier button can easily be set up to give 17 view positions operated with just 1 thumb, and (for me) is totally instinctive to use. Personally I would be more inclined towards getting a throttle with second hat to use for the other 3DOF.
The nervous system of the hands have the amazing ability to learn tasks, and then offload control of them from the conscious mind (as any musician knows).
By contrast, head control seems very awkward. I can't think of any other system (except for disabled) that uses it.

Try FreeTrack (google for it as i don't know if link are allowed), it's not expensive if you already have a webcam, and you'll never go back.... :grin:

[Foo'bar]

Try FreeTrack (google for it as i don't know if link are allowed), it's not expensive if you already have a webcam, and you'll never go back.... :grin:

But you have to build it yourself. I wonder when Saitek finally will start to make a cheaper alternative to that much too expencive piece of plastics made by natural point.

[Masi67]

Bought Tir5 about one year ago. Simply like it, runs great on my 7 year old PC.
For years I was using CH Pro Throttles minimouse for viewing. It was good too, but it got weary after years:)

Pros
- Increases SA alot
- Easy install
- Brings alot of immersion, got me back to Il2
- My neck does not hurt anymore, if I play longs sessions:)
- Actually helps me in Rolling Scissors and in Scissors.


Cons
- Well, it is expensive
- You need to study settings to get headtracking to work to your personal likings. All those curves, after that it is easy configure.


Oh, I recommend to get trackclip too. You wont loose focus with that one.

-Masi

[albx]

But you have to build it yourself. I wonder when Saitek finally will start to make a cheaper alternative to that much too expencive piece of plastics made by natural point.
yes.. you're right.. you need to build it yourself... but with an old hat,3 leds and a USB printer cable i made mine, and it works very well. If somebody is interested in a config for the il2 i can send mine, i found it somewere and adjusted for better response...

P.S.
I don't think another company will make a TrackIR alternative, naturalpoint think it's their tecnology and patents... (but nintendo wii remote works like trackir, a small camera that read 2 infrared leds) :rolleyes:

Alberto

[brando]

"naturalpoint think it's their tecnology and patents..."

No "think" about it - Naturalpoint have been into head-tracking technology from the beginning of PC usage, enabling disabled people to use computers. They did develop the technology and they did patent it. The move into games and sims was a no-brainer and they have continued to develop and support their products right into the present day.

As for this constant cry of "too expensive" there's several choices. Build your own device, buy TrackIR, or use buttons & mouse. I chose to buy Naturalpoint's devices and I don't regret the decision. I just bought TiR 5 and sent my 3Pro to a squad-mate. 5 is a great improvement, and I don't regret saving up for it! It only took me about three months to salt away the money.

[swiss]

But you have to build it yourself. I wonder when Saitek finally will start to make a cheaper alternative to that much too expencive piece of plastics made by natural point.

It's not the hardware you pay - it's R&D. ;)


yes.. you're right.. you need to build it yourself... but with an old hat,3 leds and a USB printer cable i made mine,

So your hat is USB powered too? :D

[Artist]

Good point, brando. There's so much misuse of patents out there that one tends to forget, that there *are* companies who not only earned their patents, but actually use them for something different than lawsuits...

And for those with more time than money there's FreeTrack + webcam/wii + headgear. Total costs approximatly €50 and a lot of fun buliding the headgear (at least for me).

[albx]

So your hat is USB powered too? :D

yes why? i just plug it in a front usb in my pc....

[WTE_Galway]

yes why? i just plug it in a front usb in my pc....

What about a solar powered hat ??? ... no wait you might want to play at night ...

[albx]

What about a solar powered hat ??? ... no wait you might want to play at night ...

ah.....................ah.....................ah.. ...................ah

(ironic laught... :P)

[swiss]

yes why? i just plug it in a front usb in my pc....

I don't think many went with this solution. ;)

I also made an experience of pure horror due to this.

Since I built two FT sets(1 hat/ one for headphones), and had(or wanted to sacrifice) only one USB cable, I installed a circular connector(m) to the other end of the USB cable - and the same (f) to each headset.
The resistor was installed right above the strap to adjust the size of the cap.


Now:

Did you know that the Lacie external HDD PSU uses the same size of connector?

I was playing IL2 when I suddenly smelled something burn.
I turned my head to the window where I was reflected.
There were SPARKS flying from the back of my HEAD!
In terror I removed my cap and threw it on the desk - solder flying around as it hit the table top.
The smell of burned hair was suddenly evident too.

:grin:

btw: an overheated resistors loses all of the resistance...

[albx]

I don't think many went with this solution. ;)

I also made an experience of pure horror due to this.

Since I built two FT sets(1 hat/ one for headphones), and had(or wanted to sacrifice) only one USB cable, I installed a circular connector(m) to the other end of the USB cable - and the same (f) to each headset.
The resistor was installed right above the strap to adjust the size of the cap.


Now:

Did you know that the Lacie external HDD PSU uses the same size of connector?

I was playing IL2 when I suddenly smelled something burn.
I turned my head to the window where I was reflected.
There were SPARKS flying from the back of my HEAD!
In terror I removed my cap and threw it on the desk - solder flying around as it hit the table top.
The smell of burned hair was suddenly evident too.

:grin:

btw: an overheated resistors loses all of the resistance...

very funny :D and of course dangerous... well, i took my preacautions and isolated everything... used a resistor for each led and measured the current so i don't think i will overload the usb... but always something can go wrong.

[swiss]

very funny :D and of course dangerous... well, i took my preacautions and isolated everything... used a resistor for each led and measured the current so i don't think i will overload the usb... but always something can go wrong.

I connected the hat to the PSU of the external HDD(12V/2A!) - not the USB.

[Letum]

It's not the hardware you pay - it's R&D. ;)



It's not the hardware or the R&D you pay, it's the monopoly premium.

[sigur_ros]

"naturalpoint think it's their tecnology and patents..."

No "think" about it - Naturalpoint have been into head-tracking technology from the beginning of PC usage, enabling disabled people to use computers. They did develop the technology and they did patent it.

Naturalpoint have 0 TrackIR patents.

http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/#False_patent_marking_and_defensive_patenting

[Artist]

Naturalpoint have 0 TrackIR patents.

http://naturalpointofview.blogspot.com/#False_patent_marking_and_defensive_patenting

...seems to build a convincing case (makes me feel silly, concerning my earlier post). I wonder who it is. Does anyone know?

Apart from that, I'd be interested in a poll:

What kind of POV-system do you use:
[ ] FreeTrack
[ ] Track IR
[ ] Other Head-Movement-Based-Tracking System (???)
[ ] Fingers (Coolie Hat or similar)
[ ] Mouse

Any suggestions?

[KG26_Alpha]

Look its simple.

If you can afford or need to because of a disability then buy TiR, if you don't like it sell it afterwards.

If you like to build stuff then make one yourself

If you want to use a mouse, cat, dog, armadillo to look around in IL2 then fine.

Its all do with preference, personally I tried TiR it worked fine in MS flight sims up to FSX and other programs I use but not too good for me in IL2.

Its a very expensive piece of hardware for what it does IMHO but if you feel it's a necessary piece of hardware then the cost wont worry you.

So.......... buy it try it don't like it sell it.

Have fun :)

[LoBiSoMeM]

PS3 Eye cam = 125 FPS... US$ 35,00 + FreeTrack software... Freeware + Home built clip made with just IR leds, some wire and a support... < US$ 10,00.

And you have your 6DOF head tracking solution for less than US$ 50,00...

Knowledge is power. 6DOF head tracking is the way to go in flight sims, civil or military: it's natural, and easy to build and cheap, but people get overfixated with all "TrackIR"...

TrackIR is expensive. You can make something with the same quality with a PS3 Eye cam, Wiimote, or anything with good FPS and can see IR sources.

And, please... Head tracking technology NEVER was "patented" by NaturalPoint... It's OOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD technology... The only thing NP do was sell an overpriced solution to us, crazy sim customer... :-)

[SEE]

I use Headtracking on the PC but do not need it on the Xbox Birds of Prey simply because the Saitek Cyborg (and the Saitek AV8R) both have an analog POV which is far better. You can look in any direction, tracking is just as good and intuitive as my headtracking. Being analog, once you release the POV, it returns to centre view. The digital ones can be set to act as 'mouse' but they do not auto centre the view when released.

Why are all flightsticks still employing digital POVs and not analogue ones - an alternative choice would be nice?

[T}{OR]

I use Headtracking on the PC but do not need it on the Xbox Birds of Prey simply because the Saitek Cyborg (and the Saitek AV8R) both have an analog POV which is far better. You can look in any direction, tracking is just as good and intuitive as my headtracking. Being analog, once you release the POV, it returns to centre view. The digital ones can be set to act as 'mouse' but they do not auto centre the view when released.

Why are all flightsticks still employing digital POVs and not analogue ones - an alternative choice would be nice?

F9 key in IL2 does that. Press it once - the POV won't center after viewing (that is how I used it). Press it again and it resets the view after you release it. This is far from defining it as an analog - and since WoP is a derivate from IL2, I guess there should be a similar command. ;)

For IL2 that doesn't support 6DOF Track IR wasn't worth it IMO. As for DCS with it's 6DOF and fully 'clickable' cockpit, and the upcoming SoW that I doubt it won't have support for 6DOF (I believe it was already stated long time ago by Oleg himself that it will support it), Track IR + VectorClip is a worthy purchase. I just don't have enough spare time to build something myself, no matter how interesting that would be.

[swiss]

It's not the hardware or the R&D you pay, it's the monopoly premium.

Only is not a monopoly.
1st: there is still FT
2nd: There are probably a dozen or so companies offering tracking devices too, but in a different market(i.e. way out of our financial range)
3rd: Feel free to found a new company with a new approach, a gyro f.i.

4rd: May I ask what you do for a living?

[swiss]

If you want to use a mouse, cat, dog, armadillo to look around in IL2 then fine.


ROFLMAO!

You're a Texan?
NM maybe?

[Letum]

Only is not a monopoly.
1st: there is still FT
2nd: There are probably a dozen or so companies offering tracking devices too, but in a different market(i.e. way out of our financial range)
3rd: Feel free to found a new company with a new approach, a gyro f.i.

4rd: May I ask what you do for a living?

It is a monopoly is so far as there is no commercial competition.

1st FT isn't a commercial product. It doesn't try to be competitive.
2nd If they are in a different market, they are not competition
3rd I could form a company with the same approach as TIR is not patented

4th ....I'm an electrical/mechanical maintenance & tools engineer...what that got to do with it?

[ytareh]

Just get the TIR5 if any way financially feasible as its far more idiot proof and plug and play than the 3Pro I used for years .Considering what we spend on graphics cards etc its NOT that dear...

[SEE]

very funny :D and of course dangerous... well, i took my preacautions and isolated everything... used a resistor for each led and measured the current so i don't think i will overload the usb... but always something can go wrong.

You do not need to run your LED's at max current (as often suggested in Freetrack DIY articles). I run three 1.8V IR LED's at 60% of their max current rating, wired in series and power them using a 4.5V mobile Phone Charger - max current is 70ma (0.07A) and I enjoy perfect tracking. If I were to use the USB 5V supply I would use a series resistor of around 10 ohms.

[WTE_Galway]

Just get the TIR5 if any way financially feasible as its far more idiot proof and plug and play than the 3Pro I used for years .Considering what we spend on graphics cards etc its NOT that dear...

Considering what it costs me to maintain a motorcycle, occasionally fly real time and what I have spent on music gear, camera gear and road trips to air shows and concerts ... flight sims even with pedals. trackir, joystick/hotas and the occasional computer upgrade is a cheap hobby.

Personally I see the free-track options as something for the handyman electronics hobbyist to play with, a bit like some guys build their own rudder pedals and simpit joysticks. I repair electrical equipment and computers for a living, so I am not that inclined to pull out a soldering iron at home and I happily went out and bought trackir :D

Regardless of how you get access to head tracking, once you get it working properly and have had a few weeks to get the hang of it, you never look back.

[albx]

Just get the TIR5 if any way financially feasible as its far more idiot proof and plug and play than the 3Pro I used for years .Considering what we spend on graphics cards etc its NOT that dear...

Personally i'm not against the cost or the product, what bothers me is how the company act, that want have a monopoly, read the link some posts ago.. you can have an idea of how naturalpoint is.. so i'll never buy a their product...

[WTE_Galway]

Personally i'm not against the cost or the product, what bothers me is how the company act, that want have a monopoly, read the link some posts ago.. you can have an idea of how naturalpoint is.. so i'll never buy a their product...

.. but you clearly use Windows and MS are far worse than natural point even going as far as buying competing products and taking them off the market. :D

[robtek]

I really don't know what some people here have against NaturalPoint?
If i had developed a brought into the market a cash cow like TIR, i would protect it any way i could.
Anybody who thinks that a company willingly accept losses is, imho, a idealistic dreamer.

[albx]

.. but you clearly use Windows and MS are far worse than natural point even going as far as buying competing products and taking them off the market. :D

but i can also choose linux or a mac, no? maybe i use windows only for games?? :)

[albx]

I really don't know what some people here have against NaturalPoint?
If i had developed a brought into the market a cash cow like TIR, i would protect it any way i could.
Anybody who thinks that a company willingly accept losses is, imho, a idealistic dreamer.

would you like to drive a car that accept the gas only from a company? or that you can put on only the tyres that they tell you? why should I buy a game where i can use only trackIR and not another competitor? DCS had to remove their support to freetrack because TrackIR said so.... that's why i'm against them...

p.s.
maybe we are going offtopic and probably this is not the right forum where talk about TIR vs. Freetrack and so on... so sorry for this debate..

[swiss]

Personally I see the free-track options as something for the handyman electronics hobbyist to play with, a bit like some guys build their own rudder pedals and simpit joysticks. I repair electrical equipment and computers for a living, so I am not that inclined to pull out a soldering iron at home and I happily went out and bought trackir :D


Now that IS weird.
It's like a bicycle mechanic who buys a bike off the shelf.
You do build your own computers, right?

[swiss]

Personally i'm not against the cost or the product, what bothers me is how the company act, that want have a monopoly, read the link some posts ago.. you can have an idea of how naturalpoint is.. so i'll never buy a their product...


Huh?

That's business - of course you'll try to dominate the market and kick your competitions ass - in order to make money.

would you like to drive a car that accept the gas only from a company? or that you can put on only the tyres that they tell you? why should I buy a game where i can use only trackIR and not another competitor? DCS had to remove their support to freetrack because TrackIR said so.... that's why i'm against them...

p.s.
maybe we are going offtopic and probably this is not the right forum where talk about TIR vs. Freetrack and so on... so sorry for this debate..

1. DCS was either stupid or there was indeed a patent infraction.

2. Would you like it better if NP shoved some cash over the counter to DCS in order to get the same result?

[albx]

Huh?

That's business - of course you'll try to dominate the market and kick your competitions ass - in order to make money.

right but i offer a better product and don't force a company to use only my product... maybe this is called free market??

[WTE_Galway]

p.s.
maybe we are going offtopic and probably this is not the right forum where talk about TIR vs. Freetrack and so on... so sorry for this debate..

It's like discussing the mods and teh cracking of the IL2 source code. People have already decided which side they take, are not really going to debate impartially and in the end are just going to bash each other and flame.

It is not really a debate in the sense that either side will actually change their mind because of logical points made by the opposition.

[swiss]

right but i offer a better product and don't force a company to use only my product... maybe this is called free market??

cant follow you, sorry.

[WTE_Galway]

right but i offer a better product and don't force a company to use only my product... maybe this is called free market??

Isn't that the whole point. NP claim that free track did NOT make a better product they just a found a way to use the NP interface without paying for it.

From the NP point of view free track should have designed their own interface and encouraged game developers to implement it and not used the proprietary NP one. What NP then did was encrypted their own interface so freetrack etc would have to design their own interface instead of freeloading on NP.

But seriously this is a waste of space. Its not an issue that people ever listen to reason about.

[sigur_ros]

Why does TrackIR not use DirectInput? Because it does not support head trackers? Oh look, it does support head trackers.

"DI8DEVTYPESUPPLEMENTAL_HEADTRACKER

Device that tracks head movement."
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Oqs4H-5y6ekJ:msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.directx_sdk.reference.dideviceinstance(V S.85).aspx+DI8DEVTYPESUPPLEMENTAL_HEADTRACKER&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk

So why does TrackIR interface exist? I wonder...

[LoBiSoMeM]

Isn't that the whole point. NP claim that free track did NOT make a better product they just a found a way to use the NP interface without paying for it.

From the NP point of view free track should have designed their own interface and encouraged game developers to implement it and not used the proprietary NP one. What NP then did was encrypted their own interface so freetrack etc would have to design their own interface instead of freeloading on NP.

Biggest NP lie ever. FreeTrack have own interface and SDK. You can use even the raw data of head tracking... Ft software is really open.

But NP "forces" some companies to use your proprietary API.

And it isn't fair. NP lies, NP didn't "created" nothing new, etc.

We FreeTrack users don't care about anything NP does, if our games don't get blocked to use FreeTrack API. ArmAII uses FreeTrack API, DCS : BS don't. Why?

If people want to make a stand for NP, be better informed, please. Whe FT users aren't whinners without a reason: we have to deal with unfair market policies by NP.

[robtek]

Fairness exists only in protected environments!
And NP influencing Game developers is like the tail wags the dog.

[SEE]

Applying for a 'Patent' is extremely complex due to the definitions and restrictions as to what is considered 'intellectual property' and 'inventions'. The technology and software was already well established in terms of 'optical tracking' and thus 'headtracking' is an 'adaptation' rather than an 'invention'. Optical tracking has been used in manufacturing for many years, Nintendo WI remote is an optical tracker as is an optical mouse. NP can of course protect their products and registered trademarks from being used by 'another' and, quite rightly, have done exactly that.

The replies to the thread indicate that not every one feels that 'headtracking' is needed and some even dislike it. If nothing else, Freetrack gave me as an 'undecided and curious simmer' an opportunity to delve into 'headtracking' on the 'cheap'! Headtracking is now an accessory that I consider 'essential' and I owe a big thanks to FT. Would I buy TrackIR if that was my only option in a future SIM?.........probably yes! There in lies the problem and why NP will give incentives for developers to use their API.

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't know the exact details, but the way i see it is this.

1) If Freetrack uses its own API, independent from NaturalPoint's API, but NP goes around to game developers and tells them to use only the NP API, then NP is clearly limiting the choices of users. Game developers should realize that and allow access to other head tracking APIs along the NP one, so that their customers are satisfied and not forced into a monopoly situation.

2) If Freetrack uses the NaturalPoint API and NP decides to encrypt it, then tough sh*t. It's NP's API and they do what they want with it. In that case, it's Freetrack itself that limits Freetrack by not coming up with a complete solution of their own, not NP who are marketing their software as they see fit.

I don't know the exact circumstances, but i'd be surprised if both sides weren't a bit right and a bit wrong at the same time as usually happens :grin:

That sums it up for me.

[albx]

I don't know the exact details, but the way i see it is this.

1) If Freetrack uses its own API, independent from NaturalPoint's API, but NP goes around to game developers and tells them to use only the NP API, then NP is clearly limiting the choices of users. Game developers should realize that and allow access to other head tracking APIs along the NP one, so that their customers are satisfied and not forced into a monopoly situation.

2) If Freetrack uses the NaturalPoint API and NP decides to encrypt it, then tough sh*t. It's NP's API and they do what they want with it. In that case, it's Freetrack itself that limits Freetrack by not coming up with a complete solution of their own, not NP who are marketing their software as they see fit.

I don't know the exact circumstances, but i'd be surprised if both sides weren't a bit right and a bit wrong at the same time as usually happens :grin:

That sums it up for me.

I agree with you... but what seems is that NP don't want the developers support other tracking devices but only TIR, we will see how Oleg & C. will support in SOW... i think if TIR will be used then no other tracking device will be allowed... somebody want bet?? :grin:

[LoBiSoMeM]

I bet.

Bohemia Interactive - producer of ArmAII - decided to give support to FreeTrack API after consumers request.

If 1C didn't do the same, will be really a shame and a disrespect with their customers who uses FreeTrack as head tracking solution. And we aren't just a few, by the way - look at Bohemia Interactive forums...

[WTE_Galway]

Now that IS weird.
It's like a bicycle mechanic who buys a bike off the shelf.
You do build your own computers, right?

Only when its obviously better to do it that way :D Sometimes you will find a place which will assemble and test a PC from provided specs that only charge for the parts. If someone else will assemble and test a PC for me then I am happy to let them, I do not see assembling PCs as particularly "fun".

I also worked with audio and sound equipment at one stage and have when necessary built PA systems graphic equalizers etc from scratch but when I wanted a guitar amp I went out and picked up a Peavey.

Just saying I see building your own head-tracker as more an enthusiast thing a bit like the guys spending their weekends putting custom exhausts and fancy wheels and a custom stereo in their car or the overclocking types that put their PC system specs in their forum signature.

The real point is that regardless of using freetrack, or trackIR or having an elephant watch your head movements and move the mouse with its trunk ... some form of head tracking is almost as important as a good joystick.

[julian265]

I agree with you... but what seems is that NP don't want the developers support other tracking devices but only TIR, we will see how Oleg & C. will support in SOW... i think if TIR will be used then no other tracking device will be allowed... somebody want bet?? :grin:

hence http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=16938

DCS allows TIR and generic head axis inputs. I use freetrack and PPJoy. Just check the PPJoy box in freetrack, assign the axes in DCS, and it's done.

Unless FT's developers have lobbied for game devs to use the FT API, you can't complain about it not being used.

It's when a game only uses the TIR interface, excluding all others, that I see it as unacceptable.

But at the core of the issue - with 6DoF head tracking, it makes NO sense to have a proprietary API. It's more work for everyone (especially the game devs), and hurts the consumer.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think the best solution would be a widely accepted standard of a single API to be used by game developers, so that they could cut down on development time. Then the people who make head tracking software would have to come up with someting that complies to this standard, or make sure their own API can interface with or "plug into" the game developer's implementation.

This not only makes it easier and faster for developers to code stuff, it also streamlines production of further titles and makes sure that everyone who wants to develop a head-tracking solution has a chance at making something work.

Some will say that NP will lobby against this and it could be true, but the bottom line is they couldn't roll it back if it started. Just imagine it, SoW, DCS A-10, the next ArmA title all come out with the same head-tracking API and demand the developers of head-tracking software and devices to conform with it, instead of vice versa where the developer has to do the work. If NP doesn't do it, they'll have a whole lot of angry customers, so they will be forced to ;)

[julian265]

Absolutely. Except that the API is pretty much already present, by use of the usual analog axis inputs.

If NP doesn't do it, they'll have a whole lot of angry customers, so they will be forced to ;)

Like TIR 1,2,3 owners who can't use TIR in new titles due to the "enhanced" NP interface!

[swiss]

you can make Tir 1,2,3, work with FT software. :)

[julian265]

you can make Tir 1,2,3, work with FT software. :)

:lol: the irony!

[swiss]

:lol: the irony!

sure.

On the other hand: You cant get spare parts for a 4 year old Sony TV - and they are not dominating the market.

[_RAAF_Stupot]

Personally in my experience TrackIr does make the game much more immersive and realistic, however I haven't found that it actually 'helps' me in any way.

I have found that situational awareness is a function of proper lookout and scanning, whether that is done thru TrackIr or the mouse in my left hand.

For me the best things is it freed up my left hand to use on a throttle.

[imaca]

I agree with you... but what seems is that NP don't want the developers support other tracking devices but only TIR, we will see how Oleg & C. will support in SOW... i think if TIR will be used then no other tracking device will be allowed... somebody want bet?? :grin:

I hope you are wrong - all I want is to be able to move my head side to side and back and forth (does anyone actually find twisting their head like a curious cat, or bobbing up and down useful?). This could easily be mapped to a few joystick buttons. (my crappy old cyborg has 3 ideally placed behind the hat switch).
Forgive me, but nothing I have read at any time convinces me I need anything else. Personally I would say only a bigger field of view (more monitors) will improve my SA, and would much rather spend money there than buy an overpriced web cam.

[Jumo211]

FaceTrackNoIR :grin:
just plain simple web camera :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDYfEYBEG90

[albx]

FaceTrackNoIR :grin:
just plain simple web camera :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDYfEYBEG90

but i heard it's a cpu hog... i pass...

[Jumo211]

It's mostly around 15% and in case of Quad CPU's it's not an issues at all :cool:

[albx]

It's mostly around 15% and in case of Quad CPU's it's not an issues at all :cool:

15% is a lot in a game... change the fluidity... and i also prefer to disable the antivirus when i play to get the max speed from my system (it's a Phenom II X4 965) or it will be like you drive your car with the 1/2 handbrake pulled.. i don't like it :D

[Jumo211]

So TrackIR software don't need any resources ?
FreeTrack also needs nothing to run ? :-o
Paying hundreds of dollars for TrackIR , having baseball
cap on your head with lights and then it's also using
computer CPU and memory resources , is that any better
than plain simple web camera with head tracking and
small software and for free ? ;)

[ATAG_Dutch]

FaceTrackNoIR :grin:
just plain simple web camera :cool:

That's really useful Jumo.
Can you provide links to a 'how to' site, or post a simple guide?
I know a few people who won't spend the money on trackIR who'd happily use this as an alternative.
cheers
Dutch

[Jumo211]

Oooops ! I am sorry :)

Here is FaceTrackNoIR website: http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm
More detailed discussion with link about various IL-2 settings and web
cameras is on YouTube , when you watch this video on YouTube , just right
below video there are links , I can't post those links directly here , better not :grin:

[ATAG_Dutch]

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

[Uufflakke]

I experimented a bit with TrackNoIR a month ago and actually it works very good.
No hatclip with reflectors or LEDs needed. Just a webcam and their freeware.
But decided to switch back to Freetrack for a simple reason. TrackNoIR needs sufficient light shining on your face to make it work. My PC isn't positioned to a window or lamplight in front of me so the yellow tracking lines didn't appear. And then it became a real CPU eater.
When I tried it out with extra lamplight everything was okay and it was not CPU demanding anymore.
More info about TrackNoIR, its tweaking and settings you can find at one of the modsites. Don't know if I'm allowed to mention the name here.

[SEE]

I'm hopeful that SOW will not have any commercial affiliations/restrictions to a particular piece of hardware. IMO, it shouldn't have to as it will be the most advanced WW2 combat SIM with little market competition. I suspect there would be a fair bit of criticsm and disappointment from FT users if excluded.
What would be the point of exclusion anyway other than that of a financial incentive/deal with NP? Forget that Oleg if you are considering it! SOW won't need support from anyone other than us enthusiasts - keep it clean and retain the philosphy of IL2 - a flight sim for all to enjoy from day one of opening the box! Just Remember, some of us may have to start budgeting for better graphics cards, motherboards, hi res monitors, etc....and ......oh damn!..... I have to buy a NP TrackIR.......do you really want us putting on our mickey mouse masks on and raiding the local Bank!

[albx]

I'm hopeful that SOW will not have any commercial affiliations/restrictions to a particular piece of hardware. IMO, it shouldn't have to as it will be the most advanced WW2 combat SIM with little market competion. I suspect there would be a fair bit of criticsm and disappointment from FT users if excluded.
What would be the point of exculsion anyway other than that of a financial incentive/deal with NP? Forget that Oleg of you are considering it! SOW won't need support from anyone other than us enthusiasts - keep it clean and retain the philosphy of IL2 - a flight sim for all to enjoy from day one of opening the box! Just Remember, some of us may have to start budgeting for better graphics cards, motherboards, hi res monitors, etc....and ......oh damn!..... I have to buy a NP TrackIR.......do you really want us putiing on our mickey mouse masks on and raiding the local Bank!

nah... i'll use one of the USA's presidents :grin:

well said for all the things... i agree with you

[LoBiSoMeM]

Any comments by Oleg or other developer about that subject? What kind of head tracking API support will be part of SoW : BoB?

[julian265]

Any comments by Oleg or other developer about that subject? What kind of head tracking API support will be part of SoW : BoB?

I've made a thread asking just that for the past few months, but no official word yet. I'll try bumping my thread up to the top again, while Oleg might possibly be around.

[Splitter]

So I broke down a bought a TrackIR 5. I had played with a face tracking program (not reliable enough) and contemplated building my own. I decided to just go with the big boys on the block to be safe. I feel like the price is a total rip off compared to what it must cost to produce the items that came in pack.

BUT!

It's a totally different experience. Once I got the "center" button mapped to something convenient and turned the "smoothing" all the way up, I was AMAZED (still gotta figure out how to increase the dead zone though).

This is the ONLY way I could imagine flying totally in cockpit and keeping decent SA.

Since I play on a large plasma screen and sit back a bit from it (recliner ya know lol), I was afraid the tracker would not pick up the reflectors. No problem.

Ya'll talked me into it. You owe me $150 :).

Splitter

[SEE]

Welcome to the HeadBobbers Club! Pity the 6DOF was never integrated into one of the official patches and only available as a mod. I don't know if this link explaining TrackIR setup is of any use or wether I am allowed to point you to it.......(I have FT and deadzone is adjusted by tweaking graphs for each axis).



http:////mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&op=show&kid=384

[Splitter]

Welcome to the HeadBobbers Club! Pity the 6DOF was never integrated into one of the official patches and only available as a mod. I don't know if this link explaining TrackIR setup is of any use or wether I am allowed to point you to it.......(I have FT and deadzone is adjusted by tweaking graphs for each axis).


THANK YOU! That's a very good summary in that article.

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Pity the 6DOF was never integrated into one of the official patches and only available as a mod.

I actually can understand why its not official.

Most of the IL2 cockpits are 2D textures of the view from a central seating position. Thus moving you head sideways can either expose "holes" in the cockpit or give a distorted appearance to 3D items that have been pictured "side on" in the 2D texture.

No-one cares about these minor glitches in the "mod" version. People either ignore it or do not even notice, after all you mainly look outside the cockpit.

HOWEVER given the huge amount of whining that goes on in these forums, imagine what would happen if the same minor problems occurred in an official patch. There would be a whine and troll fest like never before. To make 6DOF official you would need to fix all the cockpits and that is a huge job.

[julian265]

I actually can understand why its not official.

Most of the IL2 cockpits are 2D textures of the view from a central seating position. Thus moving you head sideways can either expose "holes" in the cockpit or give a distorted appearance to 3D items that have been pictured "side on" in the 2D texture.

No-one cares about these minor glitches in the "mod" version. People either ignore it or do not even notice, after all you mainly look outside the cockpit.

HOWEVER given the huge amount of whining that goes on in these forums, imagine what would happen if the same minor problems occurred in an official patch. There would be a whine and troll fest like never before. To make 6DOF official you would need to fix all the cockpits and that is a huge job.

Which is why it should be an option. People who think minor glitches + 6DoF is best can have it, people who think stuck position + 2Dof is best can have it too.

I noticed most of the glitches, and had no issues with them. I think the range of translational head movement should be limited by the sim, however.

[Letum]

Which is why it should be an option. People who think minor glitches + 6DoF is best can have it, people who think stuck position + 2Dof is best can have it too.

I noticed most of the glitches, and had no issues with them. I think the range of translational head movement should be limited by the sim, however.

Releasing something with glitches in that you know about and can avoid, is
not an option for responsible, professional software developers who care
about the product they are making.

Doing that would be the action of a mod-jockey with no reputation to lose
and no real concern about the software he is working with.

[julian265]

I always regarded the stuck head position as a serious glitch. Each to their own, of course.

[Letum]

A non-existent feature is very different from a glitch.

[SEE]

I will avoid the politics of a Modded v Standard IL2 but, for me, the benefits of 6DOF outweigh its shortcomings. That's a personal opinion which not everyone will share or agree with. I can switch between 6- 4 or 2 DOF depending on which is most appropriate for a particular situation. Searching for enemy AI, Landing strips and taking off I find 6DOF most appropriate - in these instances I am looking out of the cockpit not at it. My point is that having all 6 axis available does not mean you have to use them at all times but with a 2 DOF only option you have no choice. I find the 6DOF works extremely well and, whatever the opinions about 'modding', whoever wrote or modified the code did a pretty damned good job and I for one appreciate that!