Friday 2010-10-08 Dev. update and Discussion

[Igo kyu]

Hey Major, the archery at the flight field is perfect way to learn and feel the balistics for the unexperienced pilots...Oleg have to include such tuition for the novices...it is historical.
/I know I will be banned for Couterstrike trolling.../
~Regards!

Are the targets in the fourth screen shot for syncronising a fighters guns?

RedToo

could be... would need a bench or some kind of frame to lift the tail of the fighter. whilst cool, would it really add anything for such a feature, that is to say - would it be used more than a couple of times.

I would have to say that is what those targets on the ground are for. Archers usually do not want to shoot their precious arrows into wood :). Bails of hay and the like are preferred.

Splitter
I haven't seen the video above because I choose not to install flash.

I have to agree with the last, archery targets are straw, with a canvas front, as in the lower photo above, besides being better for the arrows, that sort of target is more durable. Durability is why those wooden targets probably aren't for aircraft guns either, after being hit by a 100 round burst, they'd be matchwood. I don't know what they're for, I think rifle targets are paper, maybe the wooden ones are for airgun darts? Supposing they are targets at all, which the variation of the banding makes perhaps unlikely.

[GOZR]

Beautiful!

[RedToo]

I haven't seen the video above because I choose not to install flash.

I have to agree with the last, archery targets are straw, with a canvas front, as in the lower photo above, besides being better for the arrows, that sort of target is more durable. Durability is why those wooden targets probably aren't for aircraft guns either, after being hit by a 100 round burst, they'd be matchwood. I don't know what they're for, I think rifle targets are paper, maybe the wooden ones are for airgun darts? Supposing they are targets at all, which the variation of the banding makes perhaps unlikely.

A wild guess: are they something to do with painting roundels on aircraft??

RedToo.

[winny]

I think they are for adjusting the guns by use of a periscope.
You place the target the set distance away then adjust the alignment of the guns by using a periscope attachment.

The test firing was usually into something similar to this..

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00400/RAF_Benevolent_Fund_400990t.jpg

I have a picture in a book of an armourer using the periscope on a spitfire but the photo dosn't show what he's 'aiming at'. It is being done out on the airfield in the photo so there would have been no actual test firing. Just aligning.

[major_setback]

I haven't seen the video above because I choose not to install flash.

I have to agree with the last, archery targets are straw, with a canvas front, as in the lower photo above, besides being better for the arrows, that sort of target is more durable. Durability is why those wooden targets probably aren't for aircraft guns either, after being hit by a 100 round burst, they'd be matchwood. I don't know what they're for, I think rifle targets are paper, maybe the wooden ones are for airgun darts? Supposing they are targets at all, which the variation of the banding makes perhaps unlikely.


Get Flash, it will save me having to do screencaptures! :-)

Thanks Richie for the video! It is obviously a training target looking at that footage.

The video shows German airmen in a pillbox witnessing target practice. It all looks staged, but is no doubt an authentic recreation of a training method. I think it is the cannon on a bf109 that is being used for this practice.

Interesting tracers from the cannon! Photographed by a stationary camera on the ground.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ01.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ07.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ05.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ02.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ08.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ06.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ03.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/targ04.jpg

[JVM]

I believe the "aircraft" and even the "shoot" part are done with models and movie FX (of the time): the impacts do not look right, but the worst is the last passage of the 109: with this attitude, it should have been crashing two frames later....If you watch the video you will see it with the same attitude flying almost level!

So I would not put too much faith into the tracer behaviour...

JV

[bf-110]

Well,in Flyboys they used such targets but the pilot was on the ground.

[ATAG_Dutch]

HERESY!

no surprise - who'd want Wales?!

Me.
It's bloody gorgeous.

[major_setback]

I believe the "aircraft" and even the "shoot" part are doen with maquettes and movie FX (of the time): the impacts do not look right, but the worst is the last passage of the 109: with this attitude, it should have been crashing two frames later....If you watch the video you will see it with the same attitude flying almost level!

So I would not put too much faith into the tracer behaviour...

JV

I agree something doesn't look quite right. Movement of the plane does look strange in that last passing shot. It is staged, and edited, and shot in the studio (cockpit shots) to some extent. But the main points of the film remain - it depicts target practice with painted targets, and the tracers look authentic, though I agree they may be 'blanks'.

[Qpassa]

well, I am waiting for 15 :)

[jippy13]

Hi Oleg,
I may be displeasing the purists, but I d like to see in Bob the following feature:
a mode (usefull for rookies) that would allow the pilot shooting on a target to see (readable information on the screen), in real-time, technical information about the dammage caused by his shoot . For example, rudder hit - 70% destroyed etc., left wing hit 2% dammaged

I think this kind of functionnality could help rookies to improve their skill in dogfight.

Another point, a detailed statistic chart at the end of the mission would be great to evaluate your action.

Thanks for reading

[Blackdog_kt]

I don't know if it would be that useful to provide system-by-system updates on the health of each component of each enemy aircraft for a simple reason...what happens when you need to let go of that guy and start working on another one?

Unless there's some kind of feature that mimics space combat games, where an in-cockpit screen shows you individual component status as you cycle through the enemy targets, we don't really have a way to collect and combine such information in an easy to present manner. That is, unless we add an MFD screen but that would look totally out of place in a WW2 setting.

Another issue is that becoming too obsessed with the "health" stats on each plane's components might lead to the development of bad habits instead of teaching good ones: over-fixating on the target because if you switch to another one you lose the amount of information you had about the previous one's systems health, an artificial feeling of fighting where everything seems to be governed by invisible health bars, etc. I guess there are some invisible health bars in every type of game, even simulators, but it makes for a more immersive experience if i don't see them, as i'm getting the illusion that things are happening dynamically with a bit of a random element and not in a fixed way, for example "pepper his rudder with a 2 second burst and off it goes, every single time".

I think what would matter most is teaching people the importance of concepts like tracking shots versus snapshots and when to choose them depending on your armament and the enemy aircraft's structural strength, angle-off and stuff like that. If all the rookie cares about is watching "target left wing structural integrity: 50%" messages, then all they will do is focus on tracking shots in an effort to see the invisible health bar count down. Then, they are effectively shepherded into a way of training that is too one dimensional for their own good, they go online and get owned repeatedly by a boom and zoomer using snapshots because they never had to bother with a different fighting style up to that point.

Don't get me wrong, i fly 90% difficulty offline (externals on) and full switch online but i still want to see as many options as possible that will make it easier for a rookie to pick up the simulator and get to grips with it. Your idea is not bad for someone who wants to use relaxed difficulty settings, but i think it needs some refinement to be even more useful. I hope i'm not coming off as an aggresive, antagonistic know-it-all wannabe by saying this, just giving my honest personal opinion about it. Cheers :grin:

[Jimko]

Since the topic of goggles and oxygen masks came up earlier in this thread, I'd like to ask a question.

I didn't notice until I studied the picture of Sanford Tuck in the Hurricane, but what is the additional attachment to his goggles...a type of sunglasses that are attached to the goggles? I've never noticed this before.

(You can plainly see his oxygen mask hanging forward from his helmet 'loom' assembly and I like the ever-present mask as it usually contained the radio xmtr, as someone pointed out earlier. Pilots would hold the mask over their faces to talk even if they weren't wearing it full time. The mask and bulk of the Mae West contribute to the pilot 'look', IMO.)

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/Jimko_2009/tuck3.jpg

[zapatista]

They'd be lucky to get the goggles in place when diving on a bomber formation! It really is not as easy to put the goggles on as one would think.

brittish pilots that were about to engage enemy bomber formations had adequate time to place their goggles back over their face (eye's) before engaging aircraft they had spotted earlier (or were being vectored to by ground control). as you can see from many photo's and historical video, often they had the goggles over their forehead and not over their faces while patrolling or on the way to a target. it wouldnt take them more then 3 or 5 sec to do so.

many pilots on combat patrol, or before engaging the enemy, did not always have their goggles over their face because it did reduce peripheral vision somewhat (partic early model goggles) and it also slightly blurred the vision forward. so unless at very high altitude (cold !) many pilots/aircrew did not permanently have their goggles placed over their eye's.

i suspect that during takeoff and landings it was also a good idea to put them back over you'r eye's, because of the higher risk of crashes and incidents over that period of the flight

[zapatista]

Since the topic of goggles and oxygen masks came up earlier in this thread, I'd like to ask a question.

I didn't notice until I studied the picture of Sanford Tuck in the Hurricane, but what is the additional attachment to his goggles...a type of sunglasses that are attached to the goggles? I've never noticed this before.

(You can plainly see his oxygen mask hanging forward from his helmet 'loom' assembly and I like the ever-present mask as it usually contained the radio xmtr, as someone pointed out earlier. Pilots would hold the mask over their faces to talk even if they weren't wearing it full time. The mask and bulk of the Mae West contribute to the pilot 'look', IMO.)

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/Jimko_2009/tuck3.jpg

interesting picture

it looks indeed like a small pair of sunglasses attached to the goggles, which can be flipped up and out of the way when not needed. i suspect it is a personal pilots "mod" to better be able to look for the "hun in the sun", but i have never noticed it before in other historical photo's

[wayno77]

Very very nice!!! :)

[WTE_Galway]

interesting picture

it looks indeed like a small pair of sunglasses attached to the goggles, which can be flipped up and out of the way when not needed. i suspect it is a personal pilots "mod" to better be able to look for the "hun in the sun", but i have never noticed it before in other historical photo's

Standard RAF C type helmet with MkVII googles:

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/RAF%20C%20TYPE%20E%20II/Flightgear%20Vitrine%20019.jpg

Same rig with polarizing shield down:

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/RAF%20C%20TYPE%20E%20II/Flightgear%20Vitrine%20022.jpg


The Mk IV goggles had similar flip down polarized lenses ( Mk IVb seen here on a type B helmet) ....

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/RAF%20B%20type/BTYPE%204050%20RAF%20CR%20P1.jpg


here is a D type with MkIIIa goggles note the MkIII and earlier did NOT have a flip up polarized shield:

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/RAF%20D%20Type%20L/Flightgear%20Vitrine%20025.jpg

This is a German LW LKpN101 III from the early 1940's (the N meant netting):

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/LW%20LKPN%20101%203/Flightgear%20Vitrine%20014.jpg

This LKpW 101 is rather interestingly combined for display with a steel helmet (M42 ?? ) :

http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/LW%20LKpW101-%202/LKPW101%204050%20LW%20JK%20Main.jpg
http://www.flightgear.ch/Pictures/LW%20LKpW101-%202/LKPW101%204050%20LW%20JK%20p1.jpg

There is an entire website devoted to Flying Helmets including RAF, LW, VVS and US ones:

http://www.flightgear.ch/index.htm



Well worth a look through.

[Jimko]

Thanks for that informative set of pictures, WTE_Galway. They certainly show the application!

In all these years of viewing pictures, I"ve never noticed the sunglasses before or seen them used. Remarkable!

[zapatista]

Standard RAF C type helmet with MkVII googles:

nice find, thx for posting

i have never noticed these before, but it looks like it might have been standard issue (not just for the tropics ?) :)

[eaglerider]

Luftwaffe Flying Steel Helmet:

I stumbled upon this picture a few days ago. Here’s a fellow wearing one.
Some individual flight crews it seems took the initiative and used the Luftwaffe issued steel helmet to give them some protection from gun-shot and splinters.

[mungee]

I'm a bit "scared" to mention this on this forum because I suspect that it has been addressed in the AI behaviour improvements in SoW, but I presume that one will be able to keep up with one's flight in SoW?
I must say, on some '1946' missions, as much as speed off behind my leader on the runway, keep the ascent gradual, push the airplane as much as I can (subject to overheating etc) my flight disappears slowly, but surely, into the distance.

[SlipBall]

WTE_Galway good one! thanks:grin:

[Insuber]

Hi Oleg,
I may be displeasing the purists, but I d like to see in Bob the following feature:
a mode (usefull for rookies) that would allow the pilot shooting on a target to see (readable information on the screen), in real-time, technical information about the dammage caused by his shoot . For example, rudder hit - 70% destroyed etc., left wing hit 2% dammaged

I think this kind of functionnality could help rookies to improve their skill in dogfight.

Another point, a detailed statistic chart at the end of the mission would be great to evaluate your action.

Thanks for reading

+1

[robtek]

Hi Oleg,
I may be displeasing the purists, but I d like to see in Bob the following feature:
a mode (usefull for rookies) that would allow the pilot shooting on a target to see (readable information on the screen), in real-time, technical information about the dammage caused by his shoot . For example, rudder hit - 70% destroyed etc., left wing hit 2% dammaged

I think this kind of functionnality could help rookies to improve their skill in dogfight.

Another point, a detailed statistic chart at the end of the mission would be great to evaluate your action.

Thanks for reading

I think thats a feature for fps and it's much too arcadish for MY taste.
It might be interesting in training, but then it would be very hard to hit always the same parts to get the same results, so it seems rather pointless for me.
We should remember that we don't have hit-boxes for a wing or the fuselage but a lot of really small hit-boxes for all the sub-systems and parts.
One would get messages like:
Left wing, Spar 3, 4 and 6 hit; lost 50% stability;
Hydraulic Line left gear holed, 100% pressure lost;
Engine hit, spark-plugs 12 and 13 100% damaged, Power loss 12%;....
For the training it would be enough to show the hits with markers like in IL2

my thoughts

[Insuber]

? Just simple real time gunnery statistics, as CFS had some 15 years ago (upper-right corner with components hit & hit %) ... great for gunnery practice. Remember that new users are often scared and repelled by the steep learning curve of combat flight sims.

[robtek]

Yep, 15 years ago, with large hit boxes ;-D
Oh well, as a option, as long as it doesn't reduce performance :-D

[jameson]

I'm confused about about why anyone would want little red arrows flying around the cockpit or statistics writ large in the corner. Why can't they learn to fly by instruments and learn to shoot properly, and then get situational awareness by looking out of the window? I thought this was going to be a realistic flight simulator....

[robtek]

As real as possible is, regrettably, not everybodys fashion. :-(
Those, who dare the challenge, are even sometimes called snobbish :-D
One can always hope that the arcade setting get boring for the masses and a few more
will find the way to the light of "arapatm" (as real as possible at the moment) :-D :-D

[Richie]

Then turn them off I'm sure

[Peffi]

For training purposes, if one could see a small glimt of light as the bullets passes closest to the enemyplane, it would be a great way to train lead / lag.

[jameson]

If he hasn't bailed and/or nosing into the deck, you missed! Simple really.

[rga]

I'm confused about about why anyone would want little red arrows flying around the cockpit or statistics writ large in the corner. Why can't they learn to fly by instruments and learn to shoot properly, and then get situational awareness by looking out of the window? I thought this was going to be a realistic flight simulator....

Because SOW (and IL-2 as well) is, first and foremost, a game, not a simulator. A game is made to entertain people, a simulator is made to train people. The idea of a truly "WW-II simulator" is completely absurd, because WW II is already 60 years ago. Nowadays, noone needs a pilot which can fly a 60 year old WW II aircraft to its limit (because it's sometimes quite dangerous), which can use deflection shooting from 500m (because they have complicated gunsight and better, missiles for this purpose), which can turn his head quick and often enough to spot enemies (because they have radar). You won't get a job after you beat the best of the best aces in SOW online.

Many people (including you) have fun having a much realism as possible. For you, anything less than "full realistic" is just a waste of time. Because of you, many realistic features are implemented in game, which makes flying in games more or less comparable to flying in real life. You enjoy the game, the game developers do their best to make you enjoy their game and buy it. Excellent, a typical "win-win" situation.

Some people (including me) just don't have time, don't have motivation or simply aren't interested enough to "learn" the game. Sometimes, we enjoy realistic features, sometimes they irritate us: got bounced from nowhere and killed immediately, firing the whole magazine without effect... We don't want to sit 8 hours a day to "learn", we want to be Ben Affleck in our short weekend. We don't want to get shot down 10 times for each kill, we want to see enemy's wing falling off every 5 minutes. Therefore, we need "arcadish" features to make the game easier. Call us "noobie" of whatever you like, being a better gamer doesn't make you a better person. As long as we enjoy the game, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. And as we buy this game, with the same price as you, our opinions are as important as yours.

[Insuber]

TRAINING with post-flight (or, better, real time) hit statistics is more realistic than your stuff, because the GUNNERY PRACTICE was actually done like that in the combat flight schools.
PRACTICE targets were used, such as drones pulled by another plane. Try and check the memories of Brian Kingcome, for instance.
As we don't have this possibility in the game (and we don't want it either, as it would be too cumbersome), we must find something else to TRAIN our virtual pilots.


And, let me add that's not about full switch vs. Wonder Woman (yawn!), it's all about attracting more users and enrich our community. Stripping out TRAINING functions and make this game a barebone flight simulator will not help, imho. Any technical aid to TRAINING will reduce the learning curve and facilitate the passage to full switch, if the gamer likes it.

(I've put in capitals the words that sometimes go unnoticed by some people).

Cheers,
Insuber

[robtek]

The "problem" is that easy gained success is worth less.
To "beat the system" (or here to master the 60 year old systems of those obsolete planes) is worth the work put into it.
There is also NO border between simulation and game, the switch is fluent, and simulation is definitively not only for training but also for entertainment.

[jameson]

Surely it takes longer to learn how all this other stuff works and then have to spend more time understanding what it's trying to tell you, than it would doing it in a realistic way. If you're too lazy/have no time(I sympathise!) to learn, I can't really help.

I hope there will be a MANDATORY training course so you will have to learn the right way to fly and shoot before you're allowed to play this 'game'. You'll only have to learn it once, like riding a bike, and then there'll be no need for statistics, arrows or whatever.

[KOM.Nausicaa]

I'm confused about about why anyone would want little red arrows flying around the cockpit or statistics writ large in the corner. Why can't they learn to fly by instruments and learn to shoot properly, and then get situational awareness by looking out of the window? I thought this was going to be a realistic flight simulator....

Jameson, you can simply switch the arrows off in the options menu.

[Xilon_x]

this is italian Helmet.
http://www.ams.vr.it/Attivit%E0/militaria_AMS/pier_13.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3015/dcp04860em0.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5144/aquilottiix2.jpg
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3020/cimicchi6.jpg
italian savage sistem
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/ginklo/salvagente.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/ginklo/salvagente1.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1274/giubbottosalvataggiora0.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1757/giubbottosalvataggiora0g.jpg
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1648/giubbottosalvataggiora0o.jpg
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/726/72sq194111c202726comiso.jpg

[Peffi]

For training purposes, not online combat, it would be educational to see instantly where the bullets hit the target or how close you are of hitting it. There is also a limit to the situational awareness one can achieve by looking at a 24" (if even) screen. Not everyone has the Track IR or multiple screens setup. Small arrows that gives you clues of where the enemy is is therefore not cheating. They just compensate for the simple fact that you are not in the real airplane where you can twist your head in any direction you want and that your periferal vision (close to 180 degrees in real life) is very limited when looking at a screen, or even three screens. SOW BOB should be made so as many as possible will enjoy it. If it's a game or a sim should be up to the player / pilot. We have also only seen pictures of SOW BOB. Sound and most importantly how realistic the airplanes fly is yet to be known. If the AI pilots have their googles on or not is of miniscule importance to me.

[IceFire]

Surely it takes longer to learn how all this other stuff works and then have to spend more time understanding what it's trying to tell you, than it would doing it in a realistic way. If you're too lazy/have no time(I sympathise!) to learn, I can't really help.

I hope there will be a MANDATORY training course so you will have to learn the right way to fly and shoot before you're allowed to play this 'game'. You'll only have to learn it once, like riding a bike, and then there'll be no need for statistics, arrows or whatever.

Sure some folks will want to go through this and learn how to do everything. Some people on here want to spend several minutes starting up the Merlin engine, activing fuel switches, checking the mags, and other start up related items. But not everyone. Many would like to start the engine and get going. Both are perfectly acceptable.

Not everyone is the same or wants the same thing out of the product. So statistics and arrows pointing objects out will appeal to some people and not others. That is why there are options... not everyone has to play in exactly the same sandbox. To do so would narrow the level of interest sigificantly...

Fortunately Oleg's always been about the options.

[speculum jockey]

Surely it takes longer to learn how all this other stuff works and then have to spend more time understanding what it's trying to tell you, than it would doing it in a realistic way. If you're too lazy/have no time(I sympathise!) to learn, I can't really help.

I hope there will be a MANDATORY training course so you will have to learn the right way to fly and shoot before you're allowed to play this 'game'. You'll only have to learn it once, like riding a bike, and then there'll be no need for statistics, arrows or whatever.

If you were in charge of SOW then Oleg and company would be on the side of the road asking for spare change.

This is a GAME that needs to make money. You're not going to see the RAF out at your local games store asking for 40 copies so they can train their pilots to fly Hurricanes and Spitfires. That's why there are adjustable realism features.

The type of people here on these forums represent only about 1% of the demographic that will buy this game. (they also represent about 3% of the autistic community) This game needs to be first and foremost, FUN! If it's not fun then they don't make money, and there is no further development on the game or the series. All these options can be turned off or on. If we didn't have external views for example, then every screenshot that Oleg posts every Friday would be another cockpit cap.

Grow up a little and realize that not everything is "your way" or "no way".

[Blackdog_kt]

I'm confused about about why anyone would want little red arrows flying around the cockpit or statistics writ large in the corner. Why can't they learn to fly by instruments and learn to shoot properly, and then get situational awareness by looking out of the window? I thought this was going to be a realistic flight simulator....

I don't use them but i see the use for such helper tools. Poor scaling of difficulty is one of the prime reasons we don't get more people into flight sims.

Everyone likes games with explosions, so why aren't more people into flight simming? Well, what many of them don't like is getting smacked across the forehead with a 500 pager that details just the basics for theory of flight, formation tactics, gunnery principles and so on, not to mention that most of the times today the manual doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what's in the simulator. It's not just getting smacked across the head with that 500 pager, back in the day it was at least provided in the packaging, now you have to print part of it yourself from a pdf file and then scour the internet for the missing parts before flogging with the manuals can commence. That's the extra masochism that we long timers appreciate and crave, but it's easy to see it doesn't work any miracles for bringing new faces into the hobby :-P

Just because the arrows are there doesn't make this a not realistic simulator, as long as we have the option to turn them off. Effectively, having a wide array of difficulty options to choose from enables us to have more games in a single title: from ultra realistic (PCs of the time permitting) to ultra arcade.
I don't use arcadish gameplay options but don't diss arcade mode, it's what can bring the new guys in and new guys help pay for our expansions and implementation of realistic features. ;)

If i scoff at something , for me it will be the lack of personal chalenge in arcadish gameplay, not the people who use the options. For them, the challenge is there and when they reach a certain skill level when it's not enough the answer is simple: they either put the game down or up the ante by starting to fly with more realistic settings.
Frankly, as long as a person who flies with all the realistic FM options turned off doesn't try to play know-it-all on the realistic-flying guy about the physics of flight or claim expertise in how things should be, i have no problem whatsoever how he uses his simulator.
In a similar fashion, i don't think people who fly full switch are snobs just because of flying full switch. They have a more varied and accurate experience and as a result their knowledge pertains more to what is closer to reality, if people want to challenge them then they need to do their homework first and that's not snobbish, it's reasonable. Being a snob is telling people to "stfu n00b, i fly full real", it's perfectly ok however to say "i fly full switch and so i think that your opinions only apply to your preffered difficulty settings and not the entire simulator environment".

I think we all have to keep in mind that we didn't arrive at the point we are overnight. The reason i want ultra realism is because i've been using flight sims for 18 years and i've seen pretty much every trick in the book, so i'm looking forward to something a bit more challenging and maybe surprising. However, there are other people who are just starting now. It would be stupid of me to expect them to acculumate in a few weeks the same amount of knowledge i have managed to collect over the past 18 years and then proceed to degrade them when they try to learn gradually. It doesn't do good to anybody behaving this way, neither the new guy who will be discouraged, nor the veteran who is looking for some "fresh meat" or maybe the challenge of training an up-start wingman and finally, not for the genre on the whole which will suffer reduced sales.

The question is simple. We either try to accomodate the up-start guys and ease them into the hobby gradually, or the hobby gradually dies as we get older and start suffering from poor eyesight, hand eye coordination or worse :-P

[Richie]

The "problem" is that easy gained success is worth less.
To "beat the system" (or here to master the 60 year old systems of those obsolete planes) is worth the work put into it.
There is also NO border between simulation and game, the switch is fluent, and simulation is definitively not only for training but also for entertainment.




If you sell a sim with a default full real setting and that's all it will not have no selling power. Many of the newbs who buy it will simply not have the patients to learn. After the 100th ground loop and firery crash into the fuel depot they'll give up and take it back to the store and get a Microsoft product.

[Splitter]

To Blackdog and others who have posted similar: Yep.

I want to get my son (17) into SoW as one of those things we can do together. No way is he going to be able to know what I know (since I have been flying flight sims for almost 25 years off and on) or compete with me on settings that are more ""realistic".

But we could "dumb it down" and have some fun together right from the start. More realistic settings could be introduced to him as we go along. Eventually, we may go from playing "his" game to playing "mine"....and he'll probably kick my backside by that time lol.

Other people have friends and family they would like to get into "flight simming". 16 year olds are going to see the product on the shelves and pick it up. The wider the audience, the more copies that will sell. That helps all of us. Why limit the audience?

Just understand that people will be playing different games. Having the option to make it more "arcadish" would not take away from the "simulation" crowd at all.

Look at the Total War series. There are a dozen different way to play that game. Some people automatically resolve all battles. Some people control every little aspect of each battle. Some use diplomacy, others ignore diplomacy. The list and combinations go on. If the developers of those games said "Everyone will use diplomacy and fight all their battles" the over all market (and popularity) of the games would be severely limited.

As long as the "realistic" options are there, I am happy. If people can turn them off, how does that effect me?

Splitter

[Xilon_x]

N.1 we return 60 years behind.
N.2 an airplane of the second world war does not have computer.
N.3 comprises the difference between arcade game and simulation game.
N.4 to read to learn to study handbook in order to fly with an airplane of the second world war.
N.5 to study a takeoff procedure and to study the air navigation through manual maps and instrumentation for navigation type rules or protractor.
N.6 SoW classified whit a simulator not is a game.
elimination any help whit computer interface in the simulator.
No arrows no auto loock enemy no gps map no gps electronic instrumentation no night vision no ammo infinite no fuel infinite.

this is a simulation not a stupid ARCADE for little cildren.

[jameson]

Sow's box should have a label stating that the recommended age is "Over 25". What teenager could resist? It would be an instant 'must have'. Lol!

[philip.ed]

brittish pilots that were about to engage enemy bomber formations had adequate time to place their goggles back over their face (eye's) before engaging aircraft they had spotted earlier (or were being vectored to by ground control). as you can see from many photo's and historical video, often they had the goggles over their forehead and not over their faces while patrolling or on the way to a target. it wouldnt take them more then 3 or 5 sec to do so.

many pilots on combat patrol, or before engaging the enemy, did not always have their goggles over their face because it did reduce peripheral vision somewhat (partic early model goggles) and it also slightly blurred the vision forward. so unless at very high altitude (cold !) many pilots/aircrew did not permanently have their goggles placed over their eye's.

i suspect that during takeoff and landings it was also a good idea to put them back over you'r eye's, because of the higher risk of crashes and incidents over that period of the flight


Well, seeing as though I have such a set and have tried this out first hand, I can say that it's not as easy as you say. I have played Il-2, and for fun tested what you just said, and the goggles kick up in my face and block out half my vision. The celluloid lenses don't help, and any surface scratches create shadows that look like far-away planes. With the mark IV goggles, they are easier to put in place, but for me require the strap to be tightened which is a bitch to do with one hand (too much force and you may risk snapping the strap) ;) I can see why they might have done what you have written about, but it's not as easy as you make it sound.


The 'sunglasses' part you mention is a flipshield. If you look at the goggles the pilot is wearing in the update, you may notice they are mark IV's:

Have a look here: http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/shop/viewphoto.php?shoph=12088&phqu=10

http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/shop/photos/12088.jpg

The flipshields were really brittle though, and broke off easily.

Note the picture of Bob Tuck. He is wearing a pair of mark IVa or b goggles, with shortened ear-loops. The helmet is a modified b-type NOT a c-type as you may think it is. It's a very interesting set, as all aspects of his headgear have been personally modified (notice the strap on his d-type oxygen mask)
;)

[philip.ed]

nice find, thx for posting

i have never noticed these before, but it looks like it might have been standard issue (not just for the tropics ?) :)


Yes it was standard issue. The AM used the flipshield on all goggles after the Mark IV series cluminating in the mark VII's. (The goggles inbetween weren't goggles, but spectacles. If you're interested I can supply pictures)

This set, though, is not BoB.
A BoB set would consist of:

B-type helmet
D-type mask w/ type E carbon mic or type 19 mic (Tuck has the latter)
Mark II, III, IIIa, IV or IVa goggles (the latter 2 had flipshields that could be taken off)
I have not included spectacles here, as they were more common in coastal command, but if one was to take the spectacles into account, then the Mark V or Va would be BoB.

[winny]

N.1 we return 60 years behind.
N.2 an airplane of the second world war does not have computer.
N.3 comprises the difference between arcade game and simulation game.
N.4 to read to learn to study handbook in order to fly with an airplane of the second world war.
N.5 to study a takeoff procedure and to study the air navigation through manual maps and instrumentation for navigation type rules or protractor.
N.6 SoW classified whit a simulator not is a game.
elimination any help whit computer interface in the simulator.
No arrows no auto loock enemy no gps map no gps electronic instrumentation no night vision no ammo infinite no fuel infinite.

this is a simulation not a stupid ARCADE for little cildren.

Wow, what a stupid thing to say.
I know of at least 8 people who started playing IL-2 because they initially got the console version of BoP. They all started out on Arcade mode and within 8 months they've gone through Arcade>Realistic>Simulator modes on BoP and then gone and downloaded 1946 because they wanted more. These are console gamers crossing over. The more units Oleg sells of this game the better as far as I'm concerned and if that means making it more accessable then so be it.

To call arcade childish is, well, chidish. Why cut off a whole new audience just because you want some wierd 'sim elite'

[philip.ed]

Wow, what a stupid thing to say.
I know of at least 8 people who started playing IL-2 because they initially got the console version of BoP. They all started out on Arcade mode and within 8 months they've gone through Arcade>Realistic>Simulator modes on BoP and then gone and downloaded 1946 because they wanted more. These are console gamers crossing over. The more units Oleg sells of this game the better as far as I'm concerned and if that means making it more accessable then so be it.

To call arcade childish is, well, chidish. Why cut off a whole new audience just because you want some wierd 'sim elite'

+1

Oleg is making this sim for all parties; simmers and acracders alike. Arcade may sound simplistic, but of course there'll be easier options for SoW ;)

[Xilon_x]

the little child not have good pacience for learn a starting procedure of ww2 airplane this is a serius simulator not a ARCADE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM2-PoD-SgU&p=C5CF45BF3C0D86FE&playnext=1&index=1

[swiss]

N.1 we return 60 years behind.
N.2 an airplane of the second world war does not have computer.
N.3 comprises the difference between arcade game and simulation game.
N.4 to read to learn to study handbook in order to fly with an airplane of the second world war.
N.5 to study a takeoff procedure and to study the air navigation through manual maps and instrumentation for navigation type rules or protractor.
N.6 SoW classified whit a simulator not is a game.
elimination any help whit computer interface in the simulator.
No arrows no auto loock enemy no gps map no gps electronic instrumentation no night vision no ammo infinite no fuel infinite.

this is a simulation not a stupid ARCADE for little cildren.

That's why you need a menu where you turn those options on or off - where's the problem?

Maybe you are p.o. because off all the arcade servers in HL?
Let me put it this way - those ppl most likely will never switch to full real.
So if there were only FR servers left, those ppl would just disappear - and not what you maybe hope for, you'll have more elite servers to chose from.

[swiss]

the little child not have good pacience for learn a starting procedure of ww2 airplane this is a serius simulator not a ARCADE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM2-PoD-SgU&p=C5CF45BF3C0D86FE&playnext=1&index=1

if I had to spend 10, or in some cases over 30 minutes, just to get my plane off the ground - this game could kiss my rearend. That's not going to happen.

And yes I fly only FR, and I am also member of a squad.

Xylon, are you one of those guys who fly London - New York real time in FSX? lol

[Xilon_x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa09tTAkHgI
starting procedure is very complicated for little children and after the navigation also ++ complicate.

[Xilon_x]

little children hate complicate swicher
little children want a simple game
little children not have pacience
little children not want study for fly but want only fun.
little children not love the simulation but arcade.
this is EXAMPLE of CRAZY children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjSPS6i6Z4

[Qpassa]

little children hate complicate swicher
little children want a simple game
little children not have pacience
little children not want study for fly but want only fun.
little children not love the simulation but arcade.
this is EXAMPLE of CRAZY children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjSPS6i6Z4

flood?

[Peffi]

Whatever Xilon

[philip.ed]

Xilon, you are a hypocrite. You moaned about me or someone else who said that some posts in the updates are 'rubbish' yet you write messages that flame people who don't fly full-real....
Something is a bit wrong here. If someone wants to fly with, say, infinte ammo, that's their choice. You can't just limit the game to simmers, depsite the game being a sim, as the game will only have a limited market. Il-2 had the option to switch to arcade, so what's the problem?
How is it childish flying with some options switched off? It's not. Everyone can enjoy the sim in their own way. Who are you to call someone childish? Please, get a life.

[Xilon_x]

ok ok then servants not to insert in this forum photo video inherent information the airplane of the second world war a lot draft only of a game.
remember DCS simulation FSX il-2 f16 FALCON silent hunter iv ARMA2 loock on Rise of flight ecc.ec. is simulator not arcade. and have good buisness

[Splitter]

Well, seeing as though I have such a set and have tried this out first hand, I can say that it's not as easy as you say. I have played Il-2, and for fun tested what you just said, and the goggles kick up in my face and block out half my vision. The celluloid lenses don't help, and any surface scratches create shadows that look like far-away planes. With the mark IV goggles, they are easier to put in place, but for me require the strap to be tightened which is a bitch to do with one hand (too much force and you may risk snapping the strap) ;) I can see why they might have done what you have written about, but it's not as easy as you make it sound.
;)

ROFl, I am picturing you sitting there in front of your monitor with goggles. Next time you do this, you MUST take pics or, even better, video! I need something to show my wife and say, "See? It could be worse....". You will do us all a great service :). Did they model that comic strip out of the other thread after some pics you posted?

Just having some fun, but I got a chuckle out of the mental image :).

BTW, I can't believe that people are arguing against including switches to turn down realism. What is wrong with options?

Splitter

[phoenix1963]

little children hate complicate swicher
little children want a simple game
little children not have pacience
little children not want study for fly but want only fun.
little children not love the simulation but arcade.
this is EXAMPLE of CRAZY children.

BoB pilots had to scramble inside two minutes...
No wonder James Goodson preferred the Spit to the Jug!

56RAF_phoenix

[Insuber]

Xifon, I hate to tell you this... but a "serious" flight simulator costs IL2 x 10^6 €... and is used to train real pilots, not middle-aged gamers... and you normally don't find them in the 10$ bin of games shops together with Pacman and The Sim's... and above all they don't run smoothly on a home computer ... :D. Just look at this one:

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Security/091006_D3S_Flight_Tactical_Combat_Simulator/?pid=6907

Cheers,
Insuber

[philip.ed]

ROFl, I am picturing you sitting there in front of your monitor with goggles. Next time you do this, you MUST take pics or, even better, video! I need something to show my wife and say, "See? It could be worse....". You will do us all a great service :). Did they model that comic strip out of the other thread after some pics you posted?

Just having some fun, but I got a chuckle out of the mental image :).

BTW, I can't believe that people are arguing against including switches to turn down realism. What is wrong with options?

Splitter

:grin: the things I do to prove myself right... :rolleyes: :grin: :cool: LOL

[MD_Titus]

As real as possible is, regrettably, not everybodys fashion. :-(
Those, who dare the challenge, are even sometimes called snobbish :-D
One can always hope that the arcade setting get boring for the masses and a few more
will find the way to the light of "arapatm" (as real as possible at the moment) :-D :-D
"regrettably" it doesn't seem to have sunk in.
Then turn them off I'm sure
well quite. having options that help noobs understand that they are doing damage and what to, or anything in fact that means there is a learning curve rather than precipice, should be added as a selectable option.
The "problem" is that easy gained success is worth less.
To "beat the system" (or here to master the 60 year old systems of those obsolete planes) is worth the work put into it.
There is also NO border between simulation and game, the switch is fluent, and simulation is definitively not only for training but also for entertainment.
only once it is easily gained, then difficulty gets ramped up again.
Surely it takes longer to learn how all this other stuff works and then have to spend more time understanding what it's trying to tell you, than it would doing it in a realistic way. If you're too lazy/have no time(I sympathise!) to learn, I can't really help.

I hope there will be a MANDATORY training course so you will have to learn the right way to fly and shoot before you're allowed to play this 'game'. You'll only have to learn it once, like riding a bike, and then there'll be no need for statistics, arrows or whatever.
and that would put a large number of people off if you had to pass a training mission in a tiger moth before you could get at any of the combat. i mean really. talk about elitist and insensible.

an optional training mission, or missions, would be perfect. people could tool around then when wondering why they are doing badly, or not doing as well as they could, will go back to the training missions.

If you sell a sim with a default full real setting and that's all it will not have no selling power. Many of the newbs who buy it will simply not have the patients to learn. After the 100th ground loop and firery crash into the fuel depot they'll give up and take it back to the store and get a Microsoft product.

and then whine on twitter, games sites, amazon and forums about it, further harming sales.

[winny]

the little child not have good pacience for learn a starting procedure of ww2 airplane this is a serius simulator not a ARCADE.
[/URL]

It could be both.. If you don't get your way that is..

[kendo65]

MD_Titus
+1

Fortunately the developers of this game are eminently more sensible than some of the people who post here. There is no way that they will risk alienating so many potential customers and damaging their chances of commercial success just because some people seem to have a hard time admitting the fact that they are sitting in front of a computer and not actually flying a plane.

And I use the word game very deliberately. It is a computer game - of the subgenre 'flight simulator'.

I should add that I have no problem whatsoever with those who choose to play on full real settings (or as near as they can get). I intend to do it myself (eventually), but what is it with this fundamentalist mindset that demands that EVERYONE else MUST do it their way???!!!

[philip.ed]

MD_Titus
+1

Fortunately the developers of this game are eminently more sensible than some of the people who post here. There is no way that they will risk alienating so many potential customers and damaging their chances of commercial success just because some people seem to have a hard time admitting the fact that they are sitting in front of a computer and not actually flying a plane.

And I use the word game very deliberately. It is a computer game - of the subgenre 'flight simulator'.

I should add that I have no problem whatsoever with those who choose to play on full real settings (or as near as they can get). I intend to do it myself (eventually), but what is it with this fundamentalist mindset that demands that EVERYONE else MUST do it their way???!!!

I agree. Perhaps this discussion should be continued in a separate topic though ?

[Blackdog_kt]

Sow's box should have a label stating that the recommended age is "Over 25". What teenager could resist? It would be an instant 'must have'. Lol!

Lol, that might actually be a sound marketing strategy.
"For full difficulty settings: Recommended age 20 years or more.
Recommended experience with other flight simulator products of at least 3 years".

The little kids would not only want to pick it up, they'd also want to boast that they are uber and play in the "grown-up's" division, resulting in a drive for them to try and learn the higher realism settings. :-P


To Blackdog and others who have posted similar: Yep.

I want to get my son (17) into SoW as one of those things we can do together. No way is he going to be able to know what I know (since I have been flying flight sims for almost 25 years off and on) or compete with me on settings that are more ""realistic".

But we could "dumb it down" and have some fun together right from the start. More realistic settings could be introduced to him as we go along. Eventually, we may go from playing "his" game to playing "mine"....and he'll probably kick my backside by that time lol.

Other people have friends and family they would like to get into "flight simming". 16 year olds are going to see the product on the shelves and pick it up. The wider the audience, the more copies that will sell. That helps all of us. Why limit the audience?

Just understand that people will be playing different games. Having the option to make it more "arcadish" would not take away from the "simulation" crowd at all.

Look at the Total War series. There are a dozen different way to play that game. Some people automatically resolve all battles. Some people control every little aspect of each battle. Some use diplomacy, others ignore diplomacy. The list and combinations go on. If the developers of those games said "Everyone will use diplomacy and fight all their battles" the over all market (and popularity) of the games would be severely limited.

As long as the "realistic" options are there, I am happy. If people can turn them off, how does that effect me?

Splitter

Very good analogy with the Total War series. I'm trying to get a few of my friends into flight sims and i would really love to be able to take them out for training flights and such, upping the scales as time went by. I'm talking about guys who will play anything from call of duty and company of heroes to theater of war, hearts of iron and silent hunter. They have a solid WWII background but no flight simming background at all, because "i don't mind it being difficult, good games usually are, but man it does take ages to learn" as they tell me :grin:

Xilon: Little kids don't have a lot of patience, but they have free time to learn and evolve.

My friends are all people in their late 20s/early 30s with jobs, enough money to get good PCs, HOTAS sets, TrackIR sets and enough patience to sit down and learn a complex game. You know why they don't use flight sims? Because they don't have the free time required to learn it.

I fly full switch or almost full switch (externals on when playing offline for screenshots). I campaigned hard and annoyed people in this forum to have more in-depth systems modelling in SoW, something that will be for me like a fusion of FSX and IL2 and when SoW arrives, i'll fly full switch again and i do want navigation tools and protractors to use in flight and draw up flight plans on the go as i'm skimming the waves on a cross channel raid to France in a Blenheim. But do you know how i started?

I was a 12 year old kid flying secret weapons of the luftwaffe, which by today's standards is even less realistic than IL2 with all the helper options turned on.
Also, RoF, DCS and all the other sims you mentioned have difficulty options. They are not "100% default difficulty" affairs.

It's just like school. If you teach simple arithmetics to small children, some will show enough interest and talent to become mathematicians when they grow up. If you try to teach advanced calculus to them, then none of them will ever touch a mathematics book again in their lives. ;)

[BadAim]

Why am I surprised that this is still a topic? This is simple bloody math, us "full real" (whatever the hell that means anyway) fanbois are not numerous enough to pay for the development of a flight sim of sufficient complexity to have any settings that even approximate "full real".

In order to sell enough copies, Maddox games has to make this thing appeal to the widest possible audience, or SOW will end with BOB. Period.

As I've said before, I want the most realistic possible flight sim, but I also realize that I also need throngs of people that just want to play a bloody video game to subsidize the flight sim I want.

How does having scalable difficulty settings "hurt the community" again? Or does everyone have several thousand dollars to chip in for development? I'm sure that will work.

[Splitter]

I was a 12 year old kid flying secret weapons of the luftwaffe, which by today's standards is even less realistic than IL2 with all the helper options turned on.
Also, RoF, DCS and all the other sims you mentioned have difficulty options. They are not "100% default difficulty" affairs.


NOOB! I go back to F-15 Strike Eagle. The ground had actual GRID LINES lol. Man, I just went back and looked at some of the footage of the flight sim games I have played. I look at what I used to think of as the sh!t and wonder what I was thinking (Aces over Europe, Aces of the Pacific). We have come a long way.

Let's be honest, Oleg is thinking bigger than SoW. We are already talking about how great the land warfare could be (totally unconfirmed future development). The game is going to be "scalable". Newbs are going to be able to jump in and fly. Old vets are going to have cool switches to click. They are designing a game that has "legs" and will go further than SoW.

Smart!

Splitter

[dflion]

Only Oleg will decide what to show in fridays updates. I even don't know if the A4 will make it into initial release.

Thanks Foo'bar - I hope Oleg puts the A4 into the sim. I have a particular interest in this steam engine. My father in-law (sadly now deceased) use to drive them. It was his favourite engine. He always said that they (A3's & A4's) had 'three beats to the bar' which meant they had three steam cylinders.

He told me a great story which should interest you - he was driving a steam engine with a goods train near Nottingham one night, I think after the Battle of Britain, and was strafed by a Luftwaffe nightfighter. He didn't realise that they had been strafed until they stopped at a signal and the guard came running up saying they had been attacked and the back of the train was on fire!
DFLion

[swiss]

NOOB! I go back to F-15 Strike Eagle.

Noob too, you!

I go back to F-16 Fighting Falcon(Amiga 500, that game was sooo cool!), actually even FS2(on Atari, but FS2 sucked). :D

Just to remember:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Falcon_1.0_in-game_screenshot_%28Atari_ST%29.png

Can't believe I played that, lol.

[WTE_Galway]

Noob too, you!

I go back to F-16 Fighting Falcon(Amiga 500, that game was sooo cool!), actually even FS2(on Atari, but FS2 sucked). :D

Just to remember:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Falcon_1.0_in-game_screenshot_%28Atari_ST%29.png

Can't believe I played that, lol.

The 1980's PC version of F-16 Fighting Falcon had a good campaign mode whereby you flew one mission yourself and set targets for other flights under your control. Its something that would be nice to have in SOW.

[Mad G]

I've always liked "Control Tower Fritz, allways sound like he has beer and sauerkraut ready for me when I land.

After 6 years listening to Fritz, I´ve got tired of him. By now I´m using a female control tower voice which gives much more promising action after my landing :mrgreen:

[Mad G]

Some nice details of the _flight sim_ that help to feel the flight at some altitude like you see real picture (repeat, from altitude).
Would like to point for your attention that smoke and water steam from the tube of steam looks isn't correct (will be more dark and present more black at the acceleration of the steam. It is working, but smoke dencity isn't right yet. We put such things and other similar "bugs" to tune in final).
I think such details would show already now how the series maybe branched(or united) in future.

Great pics, Oleg, thanks! I´ve been wondering if that you and team could release to all of us a mini-demo, let´s say, Hurris x Heinkels or so, near the English coast as an appetizer before the final release. It´s been years of waiting for SOW-BOB and many release confirmed dates that didn´t came through. Don´t want to sound unrespectful nor ungrateful, but...Think about.

Best,

[Splitter]

I wonder if in 25 years (assuming we make it that long) we will look at these games and wonder how we spent so many hours playing them? Our brains certainly did a lot of "filling in the blanks" back then.

Splitter

[LukeFF]

I´ve been wondering if that you and team could release to all of us a mini-demo, let´s say, Hurris x Heinkels or so, near the English coast as an appetizer before the final release. It´s been years of waiting for SOW-BOB and many release confirmed dates that didn´t came through. Don´t want to sound unrespectful nor ungrateful, but...Think about.

He already said no to this.

[Chivas]

Great pics, Oleg, thanks! I´ve been wondering if that you and team could release to all of us a mini-demo, let´s say, Hurris x Heinkels or so, near the English coast as an appetizer before the final release. It´s been years of waiting for SOW-BOB and many release confirmed dates that didn´t came through. Don´t want to sound unrespectful nor ungrateful, but...Think about.

Best,

It would be a great idea if the developers had the time, but its very highly unlikely. The demo could happen only if the publisher delayed releasing SOW.

[Richie]

Anyone who has it probably thought of it already but with all of the talk of pilot size going on recently why not just go get your copy of Battle Of Britain DVD out and watch it again for the twelve hundredth. I think the main ones missing are 110s and 88s but you have He 111s Spanish 109s, Hurricanes, Spitfires and after watching it you'll be even more depressed :))

[Foo'bar]

Thanks Foo'bar - I hope Oleg puts the A4 into the sim. I have a particular interest in this steam engine. My father in-law (sadly now deceased) use to drive them. It was his favourite engine. He always said that they (A3's & A4's) had 'three beats to the bar' which meant they had three steam cylinders.

He told me a great story which should interest you - he was driving a steam engine with a goods train near Nottingham one night, I think after the Battle of Britain, and was strafed by a Luftwaffe nightfighter. He didn't realise that they had been strafed until they stopped at a signal and the guard came running up saying they had been attacked and the back of the train was on fire!
DFLion

That's a good story, thanks for sharing! :)

[Bloblast]

Foo'bar will we see more vehicles from you in SOW besides the trains ?

[airmalik]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/Falcon_1.0_in-game_screenshot_%28Atari_ST%29.png

If I remember this map correctly, there's a runway on this pilot's 8 o'clock.

[pupaxx]

the coolest game I played in nineties was 'Tornado'..do you remember?
3628
..times where the graphics did not reach, hard manuals contributed to the game immersion!!!
..nineties...I still had my hair:grin:

Ciao

[swiss]

If I remember this map correctly, there's a runway on this pilot's 8 o'clock.

please don't start it - or I'll have to download dosbox(once again) and.... :rolleyes::grin:

[swiss]

the coolest game I played in nineties was 'Tornado'..do you remember?
3628
..times where the graphics did not reach, hard manuals contributed to the game immersion!!!
..nineties...I still had my hair:grin:

Ciao

The coolest(arcade) Sim of the 90's was Strike Commander.

I last played in '95 on friend's computer.
Never finished the campaign.
Last year I remembered and had this strange urge to finish it.
Bought a copy of SC on ebay for £1, installed dosbox and did it. lol


http://youtu.be/JATVNhteDPA

I still digg the sound from 2:00.

[Xilon_x]

i remwmber all this game in i play to Fa/18 intercepctor amiga.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb_YOvmINHQ
thei finest hour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhO94FPfb0w&feature=PlayList&p=C82910424BCECFD6&index=0&playnext=1

[albx]

maybe we should open a new topic named "flight sims abandonware" ? :grin:

[swiss]

i remwmber all this game in i play to Fa/18 intercepctor amiga.


Bros, interceptor is 1988 and TFH 1989.

You're OUT. ;)

maybe we should open a new topic named "flight sims abandonware" ? :grin:

or just stop it. :)


On the other hand: This thread is already dead. the important posts are on page one.

[BadAim]

At least it's civil, for the moment.

[Richie]

That engine sound will induce seizures.

[C_G]

Just a quick comment re: additional data being provided about damage to different systems as a learning tool for new pilots.

Perhaps the original poster isn't aware about the "arcade=1" feature in the conf.ini?
It's a great tool (one I hadn't seen in any other sim) showing where hits were made by one guns. Combined with the track recorder, arcade=1 really helped me improve my gunnery especially deflection shooting.

I remember playing Lucasfilms BoB waaaaaay back.... 'twas great fun! It's amazing how far the tech has come (of course, it has been 20+ years now!!)... loved the box-art of that game. I also wish I'd never thrown out the manual for Dynamix Red Baron 2; that was a beautiful manual with glossy colour profiles for each aircraft etc... etc... (C_G takes a trip down memory lane to a miss-spent adolescence in front of the computer on beautiful summer days).
C_G

[Tempest123]

the coolest game I played in nineties was 'Tornado'..do you remember?
3628
..times where the graphics did not reach, hard manuals contributed to the game immersion!!!
..nineties...I still had my hair:grin:

Ciao

This game rocked, it had an awesome manual and mission builder, some good training missions too, I remember turning on the terrain following radar and zipping across Iraq was pretty fun. The sequels "Apache" and "Hind" were also quite good.

[Insuber]

Does anybody remember "Jet Fighter" by Velocity, late 80's/early 90's? Or the great EVGA space game, Elite by Gametek ...

[C_G]

I think so. Jet Fighter came in a funky box that wasn't square and was centered around a scenario that Mexico got taken over by communists and invades California, iirc.... 'twas cool, especially carrier landing the F-18.
A friend lent it to me and wanted it back after a week so I didn't get very far with it.

[Spudkopf]

I have a "BIG" box full of nearly all the titles mentioned thus far (and then some) and I can't count the number of times that I have been tempted to simply dump them all, but somehow something just stops me.

IMO both Lucas and Dynamix had some of the best manuals.

I'm such a sad case that I purchased both BOB-TFH and Falcon (1.0) two months before I even owned a PC, if I remember correctly I also pre-ordered SWOTL as soon as it was announced, then I think I had to wait about a year or more before it arrived apparently the development time blew out ;)

Not to mention the fortune I had to spend on magazines just see the one or two screen shots of any upcoming Sim’s I was interested in.

[NLS61]

tire is when you get fatigued, tyre is what goes on wheels.

Thats in correct it goes on rims.:-P

[robday]

I even don't know if the A4 will make it into initial release.

Gresley's A4 Pacifics worked on the east coast main line from Kings Cross up to Scotland, as far as I am aware they never appeared on the Southern Railway routes to the south coast. Having said that Foo'bar's model is rather beautiful and it would be a pity not to include it in SoW at some time.
How many types of locomotive will be included in the initial release? (I've seen three on Foo'bar's 'site; M7, Great Western pannier tank and an 0-6-0 that I don't recognise). Yeah, I know it's not important to everyone, but besides being an aviation enthusiast, I'm also a railway nut!

[Vrait]

tire is when you get fatigued, tyre is what goes on wheels.

No, in American English. Tire is both fatigue, and wheels.
We don't use tyre.

[Hunden]

No, in American English. Tire is both fatigue, and wheels.
We don't use tyre.

Example: I am tired of this thread.:-)

[robtek]

Don't worry, hopefully there will start a new one tomorrow:-D

[_RAAF_Stupot]

This game rocked, it had an awesome manual and mission builder, some good training missions too, I remember turning on the terrain following radar and zipping across Iraq was pretty fun. The sequels "Apache" and "Hind" were also quite good.

I can still remember the one and only air-to-air kill I got in Tornado! (in the F3) Seriously though it was best as an air-ground simulator - the mission builder was absolutely fantastic, being able to schedule your AI planes on time on target, all attacking from different directions. I can remember the trill of the RWR receiver. I can also remember trying to get a customised autoexec.bat file and config.sys file that would let me load the programme in base memory - that wasn't so much fun. The manual was good as well, some 200-odd pages long.

Another old-school sim I used to fly was EF-2000. Took me ages to learn how to do the aerial refueling!

[pupaxx]

I can still remember the one and only air-to-air kill I got in Tornado! (in the F3) Seriously though it was best as an air-ground simulator - the mission builder was absolutely fantastic, being able to schedule your AI planes on time on target, all attacking from different directions. I can remember the trill of the RWR receiver. I can also remember trying to get a customised autoexec.bat file and config.sys file that would let me load the programme in base memory - that wasn't so much fun. The manual was good as well, some 200-odd pages long.

Another old-school sim I used to fly was EF-2000. Took me ages to learn how to do the aerial refueling!


+10 several hours spent with ef-2000 ..I remember uneventfull CAP mission flown for 1 hour or more or interception at very low altitude.. great game ,
I found a link about classic combat simulators
http://www.listal.com/list/evolution-combat-flight-simulators
it impressed me cause i spent my youth on most of them since I was 13, how many hours subtracted to homeworks!!:grin:
In this list are missing two top games: Aces of pacific and aces over europe!!!great days... but gretest are to come with SOW;)
Ciao

[Richie]

One thing I was thinking about was menu music. Although I'm not much of a fan I found out that Wings Of Prey has an awesome main theme.


Yes We Are....ACES!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDoxHGLpCU

[robday]

One thing I was thinking about was menu music.

The first thing I do with any game after I have installed it, no matter what genre, is to go to the options screen and turn the music OFF. It's usually rubbish and I find that it detracts from the game.

[Tempest123]

I can still remember the one and only air-to-air kill I got in Tornado! (in the F3) Seriously though it was best as an air-ground simulator - the mission builder was absolutely fantastic, being able to schedule your AI planes on time on target, all attacking from different directions. I can remember the trill of the RWR receiver. I can also remember trying to get a customised autoexec.bat file and config.sys file that would let me load the programme in base memory - that wasn't so much fun. The manual was good as well, some 200-odd pages long.

Another old-school sim I used to fly was EF-2000. Took me ages to learn how to do the aerial refueling!

Ef2000 was really good, I managed to do the inflight refueling a few times, but I remember it was hard as hell, the terrain in that sim still looks good today. I think that was the first sim I had that had a 3d cockpit, it seemed so amazing at the time. Another fave of mine was MiG Alley, I liked the dogfights, and the big flights of sabres, the terrain was blah, but the campaign was excellent. One feature I really liked was the ability to see the enemy planes by seeing reflections off their canopies and light flashes, I hope BoB has something similar for planes with a lot of plexiglass.

[RXMAN]

Oh glorious memories of Jaeger's 'Fighter Duel' Corsair vs Zero on the Amiga. The first hi-res flight sim. Flew 1 on 1 over 14,400 modems. Almost melted down a plastic card on phone bills, until wifey caught me. The program ended up with about 20 planes before switching to the PC. there it was in glorious 256 color 640x480 svga.. Caused me to switch to the PC platform. Still have most of my tournament scores and a few videos somewhere. Some of these AKAs are still flying I'm sure. Hawkeye, Leadwiper, BigDaddy, Walkup, DBee, Tahoe, RCPilot, Zed, Empleo, Tank, HumblePie, GhostRider, etc

[Flanker35M]

S!

Richie, I know quite a few of those guys in your video ;) And that drink, FPO, is legendary :D

[MikeC1980]

I found a good pic.

I don't know why they made so many little panel lines but I'm sure it will be fixed

The rear of the Hurricane was canvas over a steel tube frame, the front was metal skinned, which is why you can see those lines under the skin. Strong and light!

[Richie]

S!

Richie, I know quite a few of those guys in your video ;) And that drink, FPO, is legendary :D

RGR! It's the old Warbirds gang from 2000.

[Richie]

I flew Warbirds for 3 years first as gkofor then as hackl_. You had to have six letters or numbers. In 2001 the IL-2 demo came along and the Hyperlobby was free so I was out of Warbirds. I had fun for 3 years though. These guys are at a Euro banquet for Warbirds...I'm pretty sure it's PJK with the Panzer Oil in his hand

[Flanker35M]

S!

It is the same man ;) He flies IL2 and Aces High these days. Kossu is also in the pics there with the pilot goggles :D

[WTE_Galway]

The first thing I do with any game after I have installed it, no matter what genre, is to go to the options screen and turn the music OFF. It's usually rubbish and I find that it detracts from the game.

Well personally I used to jump in the jeeps in Battlefield 'Nam and turn on the radio and just listen to the '60's soundtrack :D It is hard to criticize a sound track that included Creedence, The Troggs, Canned Heat Deep Purple and The Kinks :D

I also found the soundtracks that came with the various "Need for Speed Underground" titles pretty good listening.

A good soundtrack can help a game immensely. In terms of WWII a mixture of Vera Lynn, Glenn Miller, Marlene Dietrich and similar songs in other languages ("Lili Marleen" in German was a huge hit amongst Afrika Corp troops for example) may not be played every time you fly but would add a lot to the atmosphere of the game.

[Sturm_Williger]

I agree that I almost always turn the music off, but one game I remember the music was epic - UFO ( the very first one ). The music was just so eerie, it's the only game I know where the music actually gave you the willies !

[Fansadox]

I agree that I almost always turn the music off, but one game I remember the music was epic - UFO ( the very first one ). The music was just so eerie, it's the only game I know where the music actually gave you the willies !

best music ever in a game would be in DEFCON for me.

[julien673]

Best game music, GTA Vice city... B)

[Richie]

S!

It is the same man ;) He flies IL2 and Aces High these days. Kossu is also in the pics there with the pilot goggles :D

Yes. lem is the guy with the long red hair. If I remember right he was a bass guitar player and said his bass playing sounded like Motor Heads :)

[Richie]

Back in those early days of Warbirds I always flew that 109 F4. In the Full Real mode if you knew how to fly it well you could fight with almost anything. You could always find a way some how to get your enemy. After I left I hear the flight models went kind of kapput though.

[Oleg Maddox]

Music will be, but you may always to replace it by own or to switch off.

Good music creating some mood. Depending of human character and age the music is different for the creation of mood.

I personally always prefer good hard rock if its background... just for the mood. However with the great attention I'm listening on my hi end euipment only art and progressive rock.

I also accept old symphonic orchestra music in WWII films and also WWII theme games... But then if it is possible - will listen just couple of times and will replace by my favorite, instrumental.

I know several songs that were inspired by Il-2 (Russian and English languages).... Good to use in trainings :):):):):)

Today will be small update. No time. And version in rebuilding. Making on previous version.

[Spudkopf]

Today will be small update. No time. And version in rebuilding. Making on previous version.

Anything will be great! :)

[Pato Salvaje]

Dont worry Oleg. Anything will be wellcome. Thank you for keep posting it.

[mazex]

Music will be, but you may always to replace it by own or to switch off.

Good music creating some mood. Depending of human character and age the music is different for the creation of mood.

I personally always prefer good hard rock if its background... just for the mood. However with the great attention I'm listening on my hi end euipment only art and progressive rock.

I also accept old symphonic orchestra music in WWII films and also WWII theme games... But then if it is possible - will listen just couple of times and will replace by my favorite, instrumental.

I know several songs that were inspired by Il-2 (Russian and English languages).... Good to use in trainings :):):):):)

Today will be small update. No time. And version in rebuilding. Making on previous version.

Great - a small movie will be fine ;)

[Drum_tastic]

Hi Oleg - If you like progressive rock music, could I be as bold as to suggest you check out Porcupine Tree, if you have not already. They are excellent.

[domian]

Oh man,

you don´t have to suck up to Oleg :-P

Thats not the way to get SOW earlier.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I always found the Big Band and instumental background music from Janes' WWII Fighters to be very effective at creating an imersive mood!

Cheers!

[jagdlieger]

Today will be small update. No time. And version in rebuilding. Making on previous version.


Hi Oleg!Thanks for updates,your team do a great work.What version are you talking about?Does it mean the ultimate build of SoW is in process? :rolleyes:

С уважением.

[Hatch]

I personally always prefer good hard rock if its background... just for the mood. However with the great attention I'm listening on my hi end euipment only art and progressive rock.
:

Some seriously expensive hobby's with the photography as well :grin:

As for me I like the music in Over Flanders Fields.
( And hoping they switch over to the SOW engine )

[Richie]

Has to be orchestral!! I quote one of my friends who is a classic movie buff and has worked at Rogers Video for 20 years. "You can see Henry Fonda coming over the hill in a Willys Jeep" He was listening to that "Wings Of Prey" theme.

[major_setback]

I always found the Big Band and instumental background music from Janes' WWII Fighters to be very effective at creating an imersive mood!

Cheers!

+1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ATAG_Dutch]

Whether orchestral or commercial, it's got to be music of the period for me.
Chasing a 109 and listening to Flanagan and Allen's 'Run Rabbit Run' or cruising at height with the Andrews sisters is great fun!

[Oleg Maddox]

Hi Oleg - If you like progressive rock music, could I be as bold as to suggest you check out Porcupine Tree, if you have not already. They are excellent.

I have all their CD disks. As well as some in DVD-Audio multi channel format.

[Drum_tastic]

I have all their CD disks. As well as some in DVD-Audio multi channel format.

He he - well, I have always known you are a man of taste ;)

[Oleg Maddox]

Some seriously expensive hobby's with the photography as well :grin:

As for me I like the music in Over Flanders Fields.
( And hoping they switch over to the SOW engine )

In my music system I have 2 top Soviet 20+ age LP players (which is still better than some of modern for the 5 000+ usd) I just replace the heads in time. Digital formats player from top of Yamaha, Amplifiers: MZ series Yamaha (multichannel) and completely selfmade in the past two channels (still better from what I can buy in comparison). Main speakers are selfmade using some expencive heads with berillium, surround speakers from 300 to 600 series of B&W.

Sound of lamp amplifiers - not for me. Not for rock... No in principle due to addition to original sound terrible harmonics distrotion type.

[Daniël]

2 Question for Oleg :
Will pilots, but also other people change expression? Like scared or happy? It would be really awesome to see frightened crewmembers of a He 111 when a Hurri is shooting at them.
Will your flight leader tell in the debriefing what you did good or wrong in a dogfight and what things you have to practise?
Thank you for all your great work.

[domian]

yes it would be nice to, if its possible to pick one's nose, if the pilots are bored.

:roll:

[Hatch]

Nice :)

I'm down to about 1200 LP due to living smaller.
I used tubes in the past but only for mid and high & was very good for rock.
Only problem now I've moved i can't get the crossovers for the low dialed in.

So back to an old Sony Esprit :rolleyes:

BTW IL2 doesn't sound too bad over them either although the neighbours didn't appreciate it too much.:oops:

[Oleg Maddox]

2 Question for Oleg :
Will pilots, but also other people change expression? Like scared or happy? It would be really awesome to see frightened crewmembers of a He 111 when a Hurri is shooting at them.
Will your flight leader tell in the debriefing what you did good or wrong in a dogfight and what things you have to practise?
Thank you for all your great work.

We have it in code in some ways modelled. But I really don't know yet will it or no going in release....
Some things that were programmed but not tested very well will be cutted. Like it was with Il-2. So if not going then it should be in some add-on I think.

I already know what the things (approx) will be in the first add-on :)

Some thing like it was with the first add-on of Il-2, but probably more intersting :)

[Flying Pencil]

We have it in code in some ways modelled. But I really don't know yet will it or no going in release....
Some things that were programmed but not tested very well will be cutted. Like it was with Il-2. So if not going then it should be in some add-on I think.

I already know what the things (approx) will be in the first add-on :)

Some thing like it was with the first add-on of Il-2, but probably more intersting :)

Getting MORE interesting all the time! :grin:

[Daniël]

We have it in code in some ways modelled. But I really don't know yet will it or no going in release....
Some things that were programmed but not tested very well will be cutted. Like it was with Il-2. So if not going then it should be in some add-on I think.

I already know what the things (approx) will be in the first add-on :)

Some thing like it was with the first add-on of Il-2, but probably more intersting :)

Thank you for the answer. Keep going your good work!:grin:

[SAFMoby]

Hi Chaps,

Oleg I read an account last night where the hurricane and spit would emit dark exhaust smoke when the engine spluttered during negative G due to the carburetter float. The smoke was caused by too strong a mixture for a short period. Any chance you could put that in.

Lookiin forward to it thanks Moby

[major_setback]

Oleg, please look at this post...the link shows animations of Engish coastal defences in great detail. I took screenshots, but the animations show more:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=189765&postcount=25

[BigPickle]

Mr Maddox would you be able to say any more about the sound engine, I'd love to know if the sound engine is going to give more detail than in IL2, like having more samples playing at once and at better bit rates over IL2 etc
Thank you very much for all your efforts to keep the community up to date with your work.

[major_setback]

More screenshots from those animations (coastal defences).

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=189766&postcount=26

[Tte. Costa]

I always found the Big Band and instumental background music from Janes' WWII Fighters to be very effective at creating an imersive mood!

+1

[robday]

best music ever in a game would be in DEFCON for me.

The best soundtrack to a WW2 flight sim has got to be the sound of the engines themselves! Get that right and it increaes the immersion factor for me.
I just prefer to listen to music on my Hi-Fi, not in the 'pit of whatever I feel like flying.

[Hecke]

Can't wait to get today's "small update".

It's getting late...

[trumps]

I seem to recall EAW to be quite imersive with the briefing, hanger, and nissen huts ect, from memory you could switch a radio on while at your bunk for some period music and news bulletins.... it was quite a while ago, it was like a golden era of flight sims, so many being released, and in development!

Craig

[Oleg Maddox]

The best soundtrack to a WW2 flight sim has got to be the sound of the engines themselves! Get that right and it increaes the immersion factor for me.
I just prefer to listen to music on my Hi-Fi, not in the 'pit of whatever I feel like flying.


Same with me :) However I was speaking about music in possible intro, menus, etc

[julien673]

Back in Black from AC/DC .. for the intro ;)

Edit: ac dc live wire for the menus

[domian]

A historic flight simulation should not have intro music from AC/DC (that sucks!), but rather appropriate sound tracks.

[julien673]

A historic flight simulation should not have intro music from AC/DC (that sucks!), but rather appropriate sound tracks.

Did you read what oleg said...you may choose your song for you, like in IL2 ... its was just what i like and my setting in this sim. When i fly, i only want to listeen the engin... nothing else ;) I doubt about lily Marlen in special compact music machine... ;) its historical.

P.S.Cheaps shoot from you, didn t like its very much

P.S.S. Again, i hope you can understand my english, sry for that :)

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Perhaps contemporary radio news bulletins, say BoB related from BBC for RAF flyers, (eg "Yesterday a large force of enemy bombers attacked a convoy off the North Foreland but were beaten off by RAF fighters, one small vessel was damaged but managed to seek shelter in Dover harbour.......), with similar from appropriate German stations for Lufwaffe, etc.

[domian]

@ julien673

sorry for that. i misunderstood you.

sure, there nothing better, than the sound of the engine and the whistle of the wind arround the cockpit ;)

[ATAG_Dutch]

Perhaps contemporary radio news bulletins, say BoB related from BBC for RAF flyers, (eg "Yesterday a large force of enemy bombers attacked a convoy off the North Foreland but were beaten off by RAF fighters, one small vessel was damaged but managed to seek shelter in Dover harbour.......), with similar from appropriate German stations for Lufwaffe, etc.

Excellent suggestion.
I've dropped some Churchill speeches and contemporary music into IL2's music files which works fine with menus etc.
Mr Maddox has already mentioned that such things will also be possible in SoW.
So we simply customise it to our needs. Ideal.:grin:

[ElAurens]

I suspect that there are copyright issues that would prohibit using recordings done by the BBC in an endeavor that is "for profit". Hence you will have to add them yourself.

[Loco-S]

Copyright issues were a problem for certain aircraft in game, but there is nothing said as to what the Mod community can do....

[MasacruAlex]

That's really really great.