Would you pre-purchase SOW now to be a part of the Beta team?

[Aviar]

I wonder if this would be a viable option for Oleg's SOW:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3107124.html


Basically, it's a pre-purchase of the game which also provides access to Beta versions of the game and access to a closed Beta forum. Betas will be updated during development.

Of course, the purchase price includes access to the full and complete final release version of the game.

If nothing else, it would give Oleg hundreds, if not thousands of testers to weed out those nasty bugs he is busy with at this very moment. It would also give Oleg valuable hands-on feedback from real players, instead of the endless comments we see now concerning static screenshots.

I think it's a very interesting option that DCS is offering to the 'fanboys' of it's upcoming A-10C Warthog flightsim.

Obviously, this is a totally optional decision on the part of the buyers, so if there is anything at all that makes them uncomfortable at all, there is absolutely no need for them to participate.

I see it as an interesting option for the diehard fans as well as a lot free development input for DCS, the creators of the game.

Aviar

[Skoshi Tiger]

I put down option 1 for the poll, But I'm not sure how good I would be as a beta tester. With the free time I've got available I doubt I could contribute anything useful to Oleg and team.

Also (from experience) software testing is a thankless job and the developers end up hating your gut's because your a pedantic (expletive deleted) and every one else hates you because every valid problem you identify delays the release of the product!


That said I just pre-purchaced DCS-A10 and am downloading the open beta as we speak. I doubt I will be able to add anything of value to the product, but you never know!

Cheers!

[BP_Tailspin]

I voted; bad idea.


All you would accomplish by the buy a game win a prize approach is forming a Whiners Club … Oleg needs to hand pick a mix of “Sim” Pilots and “Real” Pilots to beta-test SoW BoB.

And with only 2 weeks http://www.cubpilot.com/Tspin/Woot.gif before the release of SoW BoB he's running out of time LOL

[Flanker35M]

S!

Bad idea. It would just leak to the wild public within hours of people getting in beta and massively whinery would commence. I think Oleg has it covered already.

[_RAAF_Smouch]

I said bad idea also.

I feel that as everyone else has said it would give those people who would "moan if their a@se was on fire and then b!tch if someone p!ssed on them and put them out" another avenue.

just my five cents worth.

[The Kraken]

Same here. An interesting approach but I don't think it would work for this community.

[WTE_Galway]

I thought new releases of MS operating systems were paid Beta's anyway ?

On a more serious note, I can see serious problems getting people that "paid" for "their" Beta to stick to a confidentiality agreement.

It may however be workable, lets just wait and see how DCS go with it :D

[Qpassa]

I think beta as a gift for pre purchasers . good idea

[Chivas]

I wouldn't have a problem with a paid beta. It would give the developers much needed funds, and we would be able to fly weeks in advance. Hopefully there will be workable measures to avoid piracy as much as possible. Piracy will kill this small genre quicker than anything else.

[csThor]

A broad beta such as DCS does is only useful if you want to test a program on a very wide range of systems. This means the program itself has to be fleshed out and that beta part is only meant to ensure there are no nasty surprises WRT exotic hardware configurations lurking in the shadows.

For a team such as Maddox Games such an approach doesn't make sense for they never follow traditional western standards for software project management and they're a rather small team for an ambitious project. To me it's a bad idea for SoW while it may not be a bad one for other titles.

[baronWastelan]

Oleg would consider this? You think? I think its more likely I'll win the lottery.

[zaelu]

The more eyes, the more bugs, problems can be spoted and solved.

Combining it with a pre-buy... another win-win.

Ofcourse... if you have something to test...

[Qpassa]

also gives fresh cash

[proton45]

A "payed beta"? It would never, never, never work with this community (lol)...

The very idea is hilarious...in fact, this MUST be a joke, right?

[Qpassa]

lolno, pre purchase the simulator and free beta for pre-purchasers

[Feuerfalke]

A "payed beta"? It would never, never, never work with this community (lol)...

The very idea is hilarious...in fact, this MUST be a joke, right?

You should read the whole thing, buddy. ;)

You buy the full simulation now and get the beta now as a bonus until the full version is released.


And this is not to please fanboys or something. It's an offer, one that you don't have to take.
At the same time EagleDynamics can run the beta on a wide variety of systems and as such eliminate possible incompatibilities.


This is quite common, for modern games. BoP and X-plane did the same, BTW, so this is nothing new and fearsome, even in the flightsim-genre.

[SlipBall]

A "payed beta"? It would never, never, never work with this community (lol)...

The very idea is hilarious...in fact, this MUST be a joke, right?



Yes, just a bad joke...very few of us would qualify for such a role:grin:

[Feuerfalke]

Yes, just a bad joke...very few of us would qualify for such a role:grin:

True.

You got to be able to read and understand before posting as a needed qualification. :-P

[Azimech]

What's so wrong with this community?

I've played hundreds of games in the last 28 years, now IL2 1946 is the last one, lost interest in anything else, except SOW.

I think this forum for example, is pretty mature. The average age is past 30 - 35, we all have (or had :-P ) our responsibilities in life and I think most of us have the heart at the right spot with this product.

The most important thing anyone that becomes a beta-tester should remember: NO FEATURES CAN OR WILL BE ADDED.

I choose yes, I have the time and the devotion plus more than 20 years in exploiting bugs for my own amusement, and I love to observe and analyze. Gaming for me is a lot of behavioral testing and enjoying ambience... I seldom play until the end.

And if I say devotion... this time I really feel I can and will contribute. Even if I can only get my hands on it after SOW has become gold.

[zauii]

The more eyes, the more bugs, problems can be spoted and solved.

Combining it with a pre-buy... another win-win.

Ofcourse... if you have something to test...

Oleg won't get a penny as long as you're ordering through stores and middle men this early. It would have to be some direct distribution done by 1c/maddox games, if the money is gonna matter(pre-order wise).

For this project i believe a closed beta would be best.

[philip.ed]

Debate aside, SoW is BETA tested internally within Oleg's team or the 1C group (he stated something similar to this a while back) so this discussion may be a bit pointless...

[Feuerfalke]

Debate aside, SoW is BETA tested internally within Oleg's team or the 1C group (he stated something similar to this a while back) so this discussion may be a bit pointless...

So you think A-10C is not being tested by a group of dedicated testers? Think again.

[philip.ed]

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that, from what Oleg has said, this kind of offer won't be offerred to the community in this way.
My comment wasn't saying anything against DCS.

[Feuerfalke]

I wasn't saying that. I was saying that, from what Oleg has said, this kind of offer won't be offerred to the community in this way.
My comment wasn't saying anything against DCS.

It's up to Oleg to decide, if you mean it.

That doesn't make the discussion pointless, though.

[philip.ed]

But what would make it pointless is if Oleg's previous comment was set in stone. IIRC, he made it quite clear there wouldn't be an open BETA.
But you can still discuss DCS. I personally can't see SoW having an open BETA and personally I don't think it matters. Even if Oleg wished it, he wouldn't have the time (I don't think) to put it together, as they are so busy working on getting the game out. He discounted the idea of a demo for similar reasons too as far as I can recall.
However, i'd be happy to be proved wrong, although I doubt my PC could handle the game on lowest details anyway. ;)

[HFC_Dolphin]

Has anyone told you that Beta is not running already?

[Feuerfalke]

But what would make it pointless is if Oleg's previous comment was set in stone. IIRC, he made it quite clear there wouldn't be an open BETA.
But you can still discuss DCS. I personally can't see SoW having an open BETA and personally I don't think it matters. Even if Oleg wished it, he wouldn't have the time (I don't think) to put it together, as they are so busy working on getting the game out. He discounted the idea of a demo for similar reasons too as far as I can recall.
However, i'd be happy to be proved wrong, although I doubt my PC could handle the game on lowest details anyway. ;)

A demo is a completely different thing than an open-beta.

A demo represents the full version of the game as an advertising. Therefore it has to work nearly perfect.

An OpenBeta is a beta-version of the game and as such by definition is incomplete and not representative of the final version.


Oleg is not God. He's not almighty and knowing everything and as such nothing he says is set in stone, ever. He's making announcements based on his experience, good reasoning and things he knows better than any of us.

If it was otherwise, we'd all be playing BoB already. ;)

[philip.ed]

A good point about the demo ;)
I think, though, that the point is Oleg doesn't have the time to work on either.

Dolphin, Oleg seemed to state that, since the beta isn't going to be open to the public, then maybe they are already testing it? As far as their internal testing process goes, the impression I have been under is that it kind of negates the need for a BETA as their platform (that is SoW) is continually being changed, developed, bug-tested, cleaned, changed, developed etc ;)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Open beta would be a catastrophe. I dare to say over 90% of people would just play it, bitch about it and not methodically test anything. The whinery would go through the roof. If Oleg uses an internal team it is fully understandable as they can have schedules on what to test etc. More efficient IMO. There will for sure be bugs discovered after release everyone can report in.

[Feuerfalke]

I think there is some basic misunderstanding here.

An OpenBeta is not a Beta is not a demo.

Based on general rules and my personal experience in a dozen open and closed betas:

A betatest is an internal test that is used to find and eliminate bug with a small but very well coordinated team under NDA. Most of the time this team is already involved with alpha-testing.

An OpenBeta offers a wide variety of testers, but largely for rather uncoordinated testing. It's mostly used to access a wider array of hardware to find possible incompatibility-problems or stress-testing servers.
In parallel a BetaTeam still continues testing and also listens to reports of the OpenBeta crowd additional to their own coordinated testing.

In most (Open-) Betas I participated in, OpenBeta-Testers and Betatesters had different versions of the same software.

I hope you see the differences and why some arguments posted in this thread lack some fundamental insight.

[Feuerfalke]

S!

Open beta would be a catastrophe. I dare to say over 90% of people would just play it, bitch about it and not methodically test anything. The whinery would go through the roof. If Oleg uses an internal team it is fully understandable as they can have schedules on what to test etc. More efficient IMO. There will for sure be bugs discovered after release everyone can report in.

It's not ClosedBeta vs OpenBeta. That's nonsense.

It's an OpenBeta additional to a ClosedBeta.

[csThor]

So? Given how this community is it would just elevate whining to a totally new level. Or have you perhaps missed the b*tchfest of the last few Friday updates? Why on earth would Oleg take it upon himself to give this whiny bunch of yet another chance to demonstrate just how impolite and aggressive they are? An Open Beta requires a mature community but here we have something that makes a kindergarten look very mature. :roll:

[T}{OR]

I personally think it could be a good idea if the feedback that is coming back is checked by (for objective view) qualified people or even better, real pilots.

And to be clear on something - IIRC Oleg clearly stated that there won't be any demo nor any beta testing, at least not any beta testing in the way purposed here. 'In the house beta testing' - yes.

EDIT:

Why on earth would Oleg take it upon himself to give this whiny bunch of yet another chance to demonstrate just how impolite and aggressive they are? An Open Beta requires a mature community but here we have something that makes a kindergarten look very mature. :roll:

I think you said it all with these two sentences.

[philip.ed]

I personally think it could be a good idea if the feedback that is coming back is checked by (for objective view) qualified people or even better, real pilots.

And to be clear on something - IIRC Oleg clearly stated that there won't be any demo nor any beta testing, at least not any beta testing in the way purposed here. 'In the house beta testing' - yes.

+1

[HFC_Dolphin]

Real pilot of such planes is participating in this effort to get the best experience.
Oleg knows where to ask for help and he has it.

Edit: And I'm not talking on behalf of Oleg. Above information is well known to experienced people of our community.

[T}{OR]

I forgot to add one thing - the incident with hacking Oleg's own PC to get the SoW code justifies the decision to not go with an open beta IMO.

[infirebaptize]

i voted 1, although i don't have much time to play but i like the idea of playing the game prior to release date. I did that with Men Of war Assault Squad and i had lots of fun, i didn't do it with ED because they dropped the ball on FC2.0 and i don't trust them anymore.

[philip.ed]

I love the idea of playing before release. For me, a demo/BETA has always put me off or on to the game I'm testing. BETA testing the new Medal of Honor game, I hated it and will definately need to test the demo in single-player before I try the real game. The same went for Il-2; the demo put me onto the game. I doubt I'd have bought the game if I hadn't tried the demo, as I had seen the game in shops and thought it would be some really bad Russian version of CFS1 :-P How wrong I was.
Anyway, going back to the idea of a BETA, I have always liked the idea, but then again I only buy a game once I've read some reviews, seen in-game pics (of the released game) and maybe watched videos on youtube. I've been stung buying games before seeing videos and reading reviews, and I don't want to be stung again.
In this case, I wouldn't buy the game online to just test the BETA.

[Qpassa]

The same went for Il-2; the demo put me onto the game. I doubt I'd have bought the game if I hadn't tried the demo, as I had seen the game in shops and thought it would be some really bad Russian version of CFS1 :-P How wrong I was.
I agree with you, I tried the demo of IL-2 and I loved it!!

[Flying Pencil]

I am ALL FOR being a beta, and will purchase the beta. :)

[Feuerfalke]

So? Given how this community is it would just elevate whining to a totally new level. Or have you perhaps missed the b*tchfest of the last few Friday updates? Why on earth would Oleg take it upon himself to give this whiny bunch of yet another chance to demonstrate just how impolite and aggressive they are? An Open Beta requires a mature community but here we have something that makes a kindergarten look very mature. :roll:

Well, besides the different pros and cons of an open beta, there are indeed some social factors to consider. And I have to agree with you, that this community does not distinguishing itself as a mature or social group - even beyond the yellow forum-site borders.
I didn't think it would get worse than calling a forum UBIZoo, but if that's a zoo, this is Yellowrassic Parc - much louder, much bigger mouths, but mostly without teeth or enough brains to peel a banana. :-P

[nearmiss]

Developers can't stop leaks of their games when they send the final release to the distributor. We've all seen download releases available on the web, before they were in the stores.

Oleg has probably had enough...Piracy of his IL2 code.

It isn't a bad idea. It's just that we all know you can't trust people to do the right thing.

[nearmiss]

Well, besides the different pros and cons of an open beta, there are indeed some social factors to consider. And I have to agree with you, that this community does not distinguishing itself as a mature or social group - even beyond the yellow forum-site borders.
I didn't think it would get worse than calling a forum UBIZoo, but if that's a zoo, this is Yellowrassic Parc - much louder, much bigger mouths, but mostly without teeth or enough brains to peel a banana. :-P

Here we do have updates on a regular basis and developers have good discussion with forum members.

All the other air sim forums, link into our update threads weekly. This forums is the information source for everything about BOB SOW and TD upgrades.

This is Yellowrassic park?

Forums are designed to facilitate discussions, nothing more.

[Feuerfalke]

Here we do have updates on a regular basis and developers have good discussion with forum members.

All the other air sim forums, link into our update threads weekly. This forums is the information source for everything about BOB SOW and TD upgrades.

This is Yellowrassic park?

Forums are designed to facilitate discussions, nothing more.


I'm sorry. My interpretation of "discussion" of facts and related knowledge exchange does not cover what is going on here.

Besides that, the first two points are not related to your final statement.

That this is the only source of information and other sites HAVE to link here, is due to the fact that Maddox Games has a close relationship with 1C, not because Oleg likes the forum color or what is going on here.


The fact that Oleg keeps posting here despite the things going on is not something this community can be proud on. It's Oleg who deserves the respect to come here again and again, knowing he gets his screenshots of his beloved sim rubbed in his face in a weekly interval.

[JG52Krupi]

Here we do have updates on a regular basis and developers have good discussion with forum members.

All the other air sim forums, link into our update threads weekly. This forums is the information source for everything about BOB SOW and TD upgrades.

This is Yellowrassic park?

Forums are designed to facilitate discussions, nothing more.
He was talking about us i.e. The whinning not Oleg and his team...

[dduff442]

Open beta releases could have suicide procedures built in -- self-termination after a certain date, after a certain number of hours or frames etc. etc. Considering that codebreakers like nothing more than a challenge, the encryption in IL2 stood up pretty well and securing a beta is a much easier job. Plus it could be radically stripped down, omitting much of the actual content.

It's a good idea if you ask me, though whether it's worth the hassle is anybody's guess -- testers would need to work on reproducing problems reliably and make sure they're not logging duplicate bugs etc.

Team Daidalos has demonstrated that community involvement needn't compromise either quality or 1C's commercial interests.

dduff

[philip.ed]

Feuerfalke; comments degrading the forum don't help do they? Posts that compare this place to the ubizoo only serve to belittle the forum and make you just as bad as the 'whiners'. Just rise above it, isolate the individuals who do whine, and they'll realise where they are wrong and hopefully stop.
There is only arguments like these around when a) people make posts like yours and b) there are weekly updates. I have found all the other discussion on here to be very mature.

[nearmiss]

I'm sorry. My interpretation of "discussion" of facts and related knowledge exchange does not cover what is going on here.

Besides that, the first two points are not related to your final statement.

That this is the only source of information and other sites HAVE to link here, is due to the fact that Maddox Games has a close relationship with 1C, not because Oleg likes the forum color or what is going on here.


The fact that Oleg keeps posting here despite the things going on is not something this community can be proud on. It's Oleg who deserves the respect to come here again and again, knowing he gets his screenshots of his beloved sim rubbed in his face in a weekly interval.

Your contribution to the forums is what you make of it, in discussion with other members.

Who cares what color the site? Mellow yellow, or ruby red... the words are the words.

This is a very viable forums for discussions about BOB SOW and TD upgrades. Regardless, of your perceived reasons for that... it still is what it is.

I'm sure there is a more perfect way to do things. No sense going there, because this forums is what it is for now.

[philip.ed]

Your contribution to the forums is what you make of it, in discussion with other members.

Who cares what color the site? Mellow yellow, or ruby red... the words are the words.

This is a very viable forums for discussions about BOB SOW and TD upgrades. Regardless, of your perceived reasons for that... it still is what it is.

I'm sure there is a more perfect way to do things. No sense going there, because this forums is what it is for now.

+1

[SlipBall]

True.

You got to be able to read and understand before posting as a needed qualification. :-P


True, ha ha:grin:

[Bloblast]

We will be Alfa testers anyway when the game comes out. This is basically the same I would say.

[Splitter]

I've done open and closed beta testing....REAL testing, not just playing the game lol. It's not all it is cracked up to be. It's not all that "fun" when done properly.

No need for beta testing for this sim, IMHO. They will do their own internal beta testing, get it as complete as possible, and release the game. Additional bugs will pop up (they always do, even after wide beta testing) and they will quickly fix the bugs.

Public Beta testing is only really worth anything when the developers rush or have a history of not patching their games efficiently. Oleg and crew enjoy the exact opposite reputation. While we will find bugs int he game, they will get patched (if possible).

I too have been burned many times on software where I did not do proper research. As a matter of fact, I typically WILL NOT buy a game that does not have a free demo. I bought X-Plane because it had a good, free demo limited to 10 minutes of flight time.

Demos are for marketing. Betas are for working out bugs. I'm ok with this sim being released without a beta because I have confidence in the development team long term. Why? Because not only do they have a history of good patching, they stay in contact with the zealots in the community dedicated to their previous game.

Plus, this is not a huge company. EA screws buyers of new games on a regular basis but they are so large they can absorb the hits. My guess is that a LOT is riding on the success of this title....they will do everything possilbe to make it successful.

So saying, there really does need to be a good demo down the road to expand sales. Demos tend to answer the two most basic questions: how will it run on my computer and might I enjoy the game?

Splitter

[The Kraken]

Feuerfalke; comments degrading the forum don't help do they?

It's not degrading, it's "constructive criticism". After all, if we'd all say that every post is great and perfect, how would that help posters to improve their contributions here? ;)

[Qpassa]

It's not degrading, it's "constructive criticism". After all, if we'd all say that every post is great and perfect, how would that help posters to improve their contributions here? ;)

agree

[Blackdog_kt]

It's not degrading, it's "constructive criticism". After all, if we'd all say that every post is great and perfect, how would that help posters to improve their contributions here? ;)

Good one, i LOL'ed :-P


On the matter of open beta, i've only participated in one recently. It's a totally different game genre from a totally different type of company( Startcrfaft 2, a real time strategy game by Blizzard), but some comparisons can be made.

I think that all of the poll's options are correct to a certain extent and that's why i didn't vote. The way i see it, an open beta tied to pre-purchase of the release version is a very good idea that will generate funds and help hunt for bugs IF there's a dedicated team to moderate the beta process and safety mechanisms exist to prevent leaking of the code.

The Stracraft 2 open beta was strictly multiplayer on a handful of maps, with the aim of testing the balance between different units in the game and hunting for the occasional bug.

Since SoW is a flight sim we don't adjust things based on balance but based on historical documentation.
If we had a strictly multiplayer beta on 3-5 custom made, fictional dogfight maps for SoW it could work. The beta version would be highly incomplete, the only things it would be useful for would be:

1) getting a feel for the system requirements and how it scales on a variety of systems
2) possible bugs
3) gathering specific feedback from the knowledgeable people in the community about how stuff works and wether it's close enough to how the real thing works

Serious testing and feature change requests would be reserved for the internal team, but having the benefit of a wide range of people who work as pilots, mechanics, etc commenting on how close it is to real life would be the advantage of the open beta. It's also a source of indirect and in many cases viral marketing.

During the SC2 beta people were allowed to post replays and commentaries of their multiplayer matches on youtube, going so far as to have post-match analysis sessions just like in real-life sports. This built much more sales than the official marketing campaign, because a few thousand players are more likely to find and present every nook and cranny of the gameplay experience than a small team of advertising executives on the publisher's payroll who'll only show a few pretty cinematics and some screenshots on maxed detail settings, with no context as to what they mean or how fluidly they run and on what system. Watching someone comment on the game on youtube however, you can see both why it's fun to play and how it runs on the commentator's system and you can extrapolate from there.

Of course, SoW doesn't have the potential market base that SC2 had. Nevertheless, the same thing can happen on a smaller scale to attract either newcomers or simmers from other genres.
Imagine videos of complex engine start-ups and systems management being posted on youtube, then circulating in the avsim forums where all the FSX pilots lounge...that's an easy few thousand sales extra right there ;)

But then again, in order for this to work there should be a strict moderating team that will keep in line all the people who participate in the beta, by walking the thin line between a relaxed NDA (eg, permission to post videos and such) and complete chaos due to what you guys called the "whiner's club" before.

I'de be all for it as long as people could lose their beta privileges if they were being disruptive jerks (after all, they wouldn't be paying for the beta but pre-ordering the game and getting the beta as a gift).

In fact, it's one of the handful of cases that i think an online authentication model would work well. I hate this model for release versions of games (i have neither RoF nor DCS because of their copy protection choice), but a beta is not a release version:

1) a beta is free, so even if it's down there's no grounds to complain (as opposed to buying a game and being unable to authenticate online, which sucks)
2) by issuing renewable weekly "tickets"/product keys by email and having the beta client expire and require an updated key to renew every week, you can easily cut down on the amount of disruptive players by cutting them off from the automatic key generator mailing list and banning them from the beta subforum

[philip.ed]

It's not degrading, it's "constructive criticism". After all, if we'd all say that every post is great and perfect, how would that help posters to improve their contributions here? ;)

Haha, good answer :D although I thought constructive criticism needed evidence? :eek: (JK)

[proton45]

You should read the whole thing, buddy. ;)

You buy the full simulation now and get the beta now as a bonus until the full version is released.


And this is not to please fanboys or something. It's an offer, one that you don't have to take.
At the same time EagleDynamics can run the beta on a wide variety of systems and as such eliminate possible incompatibilities.


This is quite common, for modern games. BoP and X-plane did the same, BTW, so this is nothing new and fearsome, even in the flightsim-genre.

I read the whole post...and I understand the deal.

And I still think it would NEVER work for this community...the very idea is hilarious.

[philip.ed]

We're all here because we are interested in Il-2, and love the game. I am sure that the whole forum who are experienced in playing such a game could do a great job if the offer came up.

[Abbeville-Boy]

We're all here because we are interested in Il-2, and love the game. I am sure that the whole forum who are experienced in playing such a game could do a great job if the offer came up.

boy i bet oleg would love to have you on the beta test team, send him a pm about it :grin:

[tagTaken2]

This is quite common, for modern games. BoP and X-plane did the same, BTW, so this is nothing new and fearsome, even in the flightsim-genre.

And RoF :)

[Chivas]

The original IL-2 beta test had very little whining from the testers, in-fact there were very few bugs. Most of the bugs were problems with beta tester systems, not code problems.

The ONLY possible problem with the open beta test is someone giving the code away. Although if I remember correctly some of the code was held back in the original beta test. I'm sure the developer would have some sort of copy protection if they did decided to hold an open beta test. Its just too risky otherwise. There are too many people in the world who could care less, and have little understanding or consideration for the consequences of their actions.

[Aviar]

I have read most of this thread and it seems to me that a number of people have the wrong impression concerning this issue. I blame myself because of the title I put on the heading.


***The people pre-purchasing A-10 Warthog will NOT be a part of the official Beta team. They are simply getting access to the latest Beta version(s) as a sort of 'gift', for pre-purchasing.***


Along with the Beta version, buyers will receive access to a closed Beta forum. In this way, IF THEY SO DESIRE, they can participate in the development process. Participation is completely voluntary.

For instance, let's say you pre-purchase the game and start playing the Beta version. If you come across a possible bug, gameplay issue, hardware conflict, etc., you can post the information on the closed Beta forum. There you go....now you are contributing to the game's development. However, as I mentioned earlier, your participation is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY.

Basically, as a pre-purchaser of the game, you are receiving the latest Beta version(s) as a 'gift'. Nobody is under any obligation to be a Beta tester. However, there is always the option to contribute to the game's development via the Beta forum.

I hope that clears things up a bit. All of this seems to be quite obvious if you investigate the link in my original post.

Aviar

[sorak]

I wonder how high the bids would go on EBAY to get the beta. hahahah

[Feathered_IV]

I voted yes. The journey is just as interesting as the destination.

[swiss]

You guys are are aware we are already accompany the development of SoW?
Well you'd have to read Oleg's posts first.

On another note: What do expect to see/hear/learn?

Everyone who was ever involved in development of software can tell you that's is very boring and complex experience - at least for a non-programmer.

A few years ago, we developed our own ERP, I designed the GUI(with paper and pen), and told my bros in law, who programmed it, what features I want.

That was freakin' hell!
He could talk for hours about the code, database and other crap I did know nothing and didn't even want to now about.
Just boring nerd explanations about stuff I didn't understand.

So, unless you're programmer yourself you can't be of much help, other that finding a glitch, like the transparent wing at 3 o'clock IL2, here and there.

Far more interesting for Oleg would be if anyone manages to crash the game - but a bunch of betatesters can't do that, because they already have experience.
What you need are outsiders who try something nobody thought ppl could try that.
This kind of bug always appears after release. ;)

[Azimech]

Hehe, yeah I know a few programmers like that. So I never talk with them about computers anymore :)

If bugtesting is more than observation, problem replication and recording and I'd really have to dig into the intestines of the product, it's not for me. I dislike looking up memory adresses, browsing the registry, looking for library dependencies or clashes, locked files or memory leaks and overall filling my brain with stuff I'll never use again.


Far more interesting for Oleg would be if anyone manages to crash the game - but a bunch of betatesters can't do that, because they already have experience.
What you need are outsiders who try something nobody thought ppl could try that.

If you build something that is idiot proof, life will provide a bigger idiot.

[philip.ed]

boy i bet oleg would love to have you on the beta test team, send him a pm about it :grin:

No need, he has my e-mail

[MD_Titus]

in a heartbeat. but it so vanishingly unlikely to happen.

[swiss]

He sure would want to have phil on the boat just to fix the clouds.


:grin:

no, just kidding.

[Abbeville-Boy]

No need, he has my e-mail




wow that's great! keep checking your mail
you would be indispensable for getting the grass, clouds, trees, leaves, uniforms, aircraft, and ground vehicles, spot on :cool:

[philip.ed]

Well, not the latter too; but in the other categories I'd like to think so :-P LOL

[352ndBushpilot]

Great idea!

Love the A10c beta, as I am sure I would the SOW one, if they would go down that path.

Sure, the beta can be distributed, but there security measures come into play. (online connectivity, limited amount of install, you name it)

cheers,

BP

[Abbeville-Boy]

Well, not the latter too; but in the other categories I'd like to think so :-P LOL


you will have to work on your spelling skills first (two) proper communication is an imperative must have skill for all beta testers :grin:

edit:
i hope that your dozens of previous observations won't deter future update presentations, due to excessive whining syndrome

[JG27CaptStubing]

The biggest difference with DCS which I purchased by the way is that is has a very strong DRM scheme... You have to activate it and deactivate it when you have hardware changes or you want it on a different machine.

I also think because the sim in a way is more complex modeling all the different systems of a modern plane it has more to flesh out. I could be wrong because of the volume of airplanes the weather stuff and many other things in SOW. Either way I like the approach and for a smaller team I think it's a great idea to get it out into the hands of the community. It also builds awareness and heck I support any Flight Sim at the moment. We is tiny.

[philip.ed]

you will have to work on your spelling skills first (two) proper communication is an imperative must have skill for all beta testers :grin:

edit:
i hope that your dozens of previous observations won't deter future update presentations, due to excessive whining syndrome


:eek: man what a stupid mistake. I feel like an even bigger idiot now.

[Madfish]

Holy cow, this thread goes fast

@Feuerfalke
It's nice how you try to define openbeta and beta. But I believe you're also incorrect. In fact there are so many approaches to this - beta is just a popular term for quality assurance and in fact the typical approach for QA can be applied here. In fact it's more related to SQA (software quality assurance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_quality_assurance )
However, every company does it differently. Modern open betas are usually almost always just plain release candidates for example.

Personally I would say that it wouldn't make a lot of sense to beta the game using a public method. It's a niche product and it has very specific requirements. They can't beta with people like us because only freaks will actually join up.

So the question is what could they want to be tested and what requirements do the people who could test it have to fulfil.

In other words: selecting individuals would be way too much trouble and people would just claim stuff to get into the beta. However if they would just give beta rights to everyone who pre-purchases the game they'll end up with a ton of people who are most likely just in for the fun anyways.



If people are so eager to play the game early they do not have any discipline and thus are not the greatest beta testers anyways. So it's probably best to test everything internal. Remember how long this game has been in production! I can hardly believe that they will have a lot of bug fixing left actually.

[Qpassa]

77% yes 22% no

[ElAurens]

OK, Aviar I respect you and your long participation in the IL2 community, but lets call this for what it really is.

An attempt to play the game early.

That's all it is.

As far as beta testing goes, I've done some, as have most of the "Pigs". It is really not that fun. It can be very repetitive, and really boring at times.

However it is necessary. The best scheme is to break up testing into small, dedicated groups that each have a different responsibility. As my squadmate Tailspin said early, you need real pilots to test FMs, and long time sim players to test the various parts of the game, and they have to be dedicated, observant, and have the ability to report in a concise and accurate way their findings.

It is not a wide open free for all so you can just fly around and blow stuff up.

S!

[Aviar]

I won't be surprised that within 24 hours after the release of SOW, we will see a number of verifiable bugs posted on the internet. Many of these will have players shaking their heads asking... "How could they have missed such an obvious bug?"

Believe me, I've seen this many times over the course of IL-2. Sometimes it simply comes down to a numbers game. 2000 eyes are better than 20 eyes. A large number of players can easily catch more issues than a small number of closed testers.

Personally, I'm not even that interested in SOW, as I am very happy with 4.09 and looking forward to 4.10. However, it would be nice to have SOW as bug-free as possible.

Listen, if you ask me, the chances of Oleg doing something like this are probably less than 1%, so I never thought it would actually come about.

The real reason I posted this poll was to let people know that there are some real innovative ideas happening in the flight sim industry, and that's it's ok to think out of the box. These are the companies that realize their 'communities' can be a real asset to their business.

In cases like this, everyone is a winner. The players get a better product and the company sells more games.

Aviar

[woodchuck]

I'd be happy to pre-purchase SOW, BOB or IL2 ver. 4.11 with no beta or strings attached if it would help the 1C team.

[BadAim]

Has anyone mentioned that the most likely scenario is that all of our opinions on this subject are completely and utterly irrelevant, the course of action long ago decided? If so +1.

Oleg will hold his cards close to the vest, he's way too smart to do anything else, considering especially how many times he's been burned.

[AndyJWest]

all of our opinions on this subject are completely and utterly irrelevant
Yup.

And even if Oleg had ever thought about doing this (unlikely), the attitude of the nit-pickers and cloudbase-spirit-level-appliers on this forum would guarentee that he wouldn't ask anyone who posted here to help. Genuine beta-testing, as opposed to 'let the fanboys have a look just for the free publicity' requires people who understand elementary principles about software, not egotistic day-dreamers...

[Jaws2002]

Open beta is a bad idea for first release of SOW. Too many things have to be kept secret until the very end. There are wankers already trying to get their greasy hands on the SOW code for one reason or another. The later this loosers come in contact with the game, the better.
For addons after BOB, once SOW engine is known to the public, maybe.

In the mean time I have a blast with the DCS A-10.:mrgreen: