Stuka Request

[Sven]

Hello there,

I was wondering about the Stuka´s bomb release system, will it be included in the game in the way it worked back in the days? I read in various articles that the bomb would be guided by a U shaped rail to avoid slamming into the propeller when diving. I hope this will be included in SOW as well since the Stuka played an important role in the Blitzkrieg in the early years of the war, especially against key targets.

Not only would I love to see the rail working but also the automatic pull up system like in IL2, but I miss the part that the air brake also retracts and the engine toggles to a climb automatically.

I'm sorry if this is already mentioned before, or is it already confirmed or shown on a picture?

Thanks in advance,

Sven

http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss289/PRb1gbadsven/b3b90ba9.jpg
I think this is the best picture showing the rail working.

[KnightFandragon]

That there is a pretty spot on drawing...looks good +D

[Romanator21]

Here ya go mate:

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/0026.jpg

[Blackdog_kt]

Wow, i didn't know the automatic pull-out system also had an auto-throttle component.

It's amazing how technologically advanced some of these birds were and most of all, it was all based on ingenious mechanical solutions. I stumbled upon a translated Ju88 manual today, linked in another post in these forums, which i promptly downloaded and spent some time reading. It's incredible how much automation the luftwaffe birds had in an age where digital computers were non-existent.

In the Ju88 for example, the supercharger automatically dropped to low gear when the pilot throttled down to assist him in reducing speed and it kicked back into high gear when throttling back up, based on a manifold pressure thershold. However, it was still clever enough not to kick into high gear when in lower altitudes.
RPM and prop pitch control was automatic, but the pilot could fine-tune the RPM values to stay within operating limits and account for inconsistencies between different engines, mixture was leaned automatically based on two different profiles and so on. Some pretty amazing engineering for the time, especially if we consider that it was all analog-sensor based.

[Romanator21]

Wow, i didn't know the automatic pull-out system also had an auto-throttle component.

I'm not sure it did. I think there was a checklist posted some time before that stated the pilot had to reduce power and close the radiator before initiating the dive. After pullout, he had to increase power and open the radiator fully. However, the air-brake system changed the pitch trim for the dive, released the bomb, and initiated pull out at a pre-set altitude in case the pilot blacked-out.

[Splitter]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure someone will lol), but wasn't the bomb actually attached to the rail? It was swung down prior to release as I recall. Yes?

Splitter

[Romanator21]

Uhh, isn't that what the above pictures show?

[Rodolphe]

...

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät.jpg




http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät1.jpg




http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät2.jpg




http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät3.jpg




http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät4.jpg




http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abwurfgerät5.jpg


The purpose of the "Pull-Up" device,

The elevator trim tab, which are used with the extension of the dive brakes,
goes back into their normal position at the bomb release.
Doing so, the trim tab initiates the "Pull-Up" manoeuvre from the dive.

...

[Sven]

Thanks Romanator, I missed that picture!

Well I guess it is solved then.

But is it true that the dive brakes retracted automatically when the bomb was released? I know from IL2 that the trim function works.

I read somewhere, not entirely sure, that the pilot had to push some kind of button to make this happen prior of bomb release.

[Rodolphe]

...


http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Abfanggerät.jpg


...

[Splitter]

Uhh, isn't that what the above pictures show?

Not the way that it was described as I interpreted it. The rail was not there for a guide, the bomb was attached to the rail and lowered prior to release.

Damned ingenious design really.

Splitter

[winny]

Does anyone know if the rail was always there? Or was there some unfortunate pilot somewhere who discovered that all of a sudden he had no propeller?

[Romanator21]

Not the way that it was described as I interpreted it. The rail was not there for a guide, the bomb was attached to the rail and lowered prior to release.

Damned ingenious design really.


Then I guess I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

[Splitter]

Then I guess I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

The way I read it, and it may not be how it was meant, was that the bomb was guided by the rail. My point was that the bomb was not released from the "belly" of the plane but was lowered on the rail prior and then released from there. I'm not sure id any other aircraft of the time had such a mechanism.

Splitter

[Splitter]

Does anyone know if the rail was always there? Or was there some unfortunate pilot somewhere who discovered that all of a sudden he had no propeller?

I know they had accidents in development, but I think the rail.sling was there from the start.

Splitter

[Romanator21]

The way I read it, and it may not be how it was meant, was that the bomb was guided by the rail. My point was that the bomb was not released from the "belly" of the plane but was lowered on the rail prior and then released from there. I'm not sure id any other aircraft of the time had such a mechanism.

Well, yes, the trapeze swung down before release in order to keep the bomb away from the prop. The mechanism is not modeled in IL-2.

PS - I was looking for a video which would demonstrate the movement of the trapeze, when I stumbled upon this gem of historical accuracy. :rolleyes: (watch from 3:45 until 4:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PzfGAZvT5M

[Splitter]

"trapeze": That's the word I have been looking for in my brain all day lol.

Spliter

[Rodolphe]

...


I'm not sure id any other aircraft of the time had such a mechanism.

Splitter


A carrier-borne dive bomber called the Blackburn Skua ;)

which owns the first confirmed "Kill" by a British aircraft in the Second World War.

http://www.swafineart.com/images/31.10.06/images/Supreme%20Courage_lrg.jpg

Supreme Courage by Philip E. West

...

[Rodolphe]

...


Well, yes, the trapeze swung down before release in order to keep the bomb away from the prop. The mechanism is not modeled in IL-2.

PS - I was looking for a video which would demonstrate the movement of the trapeze, when I stumbled upon this gem of historical accuracy. :rolleyes: (watch from 3:45 until 4:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PzfGAZvT5M


There is a close shot of the "Ablenkgabel" at 1'10" on this video.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Ablenkgabel.jpg



Manoeuvring Fork
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Ablenkgabel1.jpg



...

[robtek]

I believe the correct description of the drop is as follows:
1. The bomb is RELEASED from the ETC501
2. The Bomb is GUIDED by the Trapez outside the propeller arc.
The Bomb is not released from the trapez as it isn't fixed to it!
There are just forks at the end of the trapez, not clamps.

[Sven]

I believe the correct description of the drop is as follows:
1. The bomb is RELEASED from the ETC501
2. The Bomb is GUIDED by the Trapez outside the propeller arc.
The Bomb is not released from the trapez as it isn't fixed to it!
There are just forks at the end of the trapez, not clamps.

Yes this is what I wrote, the bomb was GUIDED with the rail to avoid the propellor.

[Splitter]

I think people are saying the same thing, just in a different way :).

BTW, I had no idea any 0other aircraft had something similar. Advances made during the war never cease to amaze me. War is terrible, but it brings out a certain level of "inventiveness", just look at the aircraft development from pre-war through the end.

Splitter

[Blackdog_kt]

I think this device was standard in most dive bombers, for example the SBD Dauntless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Douglas_SBD_Dive_Bomber_over_Wake_Island,_1 943.jpg

I'm not sure about the D3A Val however, the pictures i found were not clear enough. I didn't look thoroughly to be honest, just a quick search, so others might be able to find more information :-P

[Splitter]

Of all the footage I have watched of WWII planes over the years, I have never noticed that before!

I guess it is true that it's what you learn after you know it all that really counts lol. Awesome find. You guys are WWII aircraft nerds and I mean that in the BEST way.

Splitter

[Sven]

It may have been the case in other dive bombers as well, but most of those could not dive in the same vertical (90 degrees)way the Stuka did, the guidance system was really necessary to avoid smashing the bomb in the propellor, in other dive bombers this was not completely necessary as they could not stabalize or get the plane in to a full 90 degrees position, more like a safety maganism for those divers.

Extract from wiki

"The Vengeance and Dantless were both very good but could dive no more than 60 or 70 degrees. The Stuka was in a class of its own"

[Flying Pencil]

I think people are saying the same thing, just in a different way :).

BTW, I had no idea any 0other aircraft had something similar. Advances made during the war never cease to amaze me. War is terrible, but it brings out a certain level of "inventiveness", just look at the aircraft development from pre-war through the end.

Splitter

Yeup, sounds like everyone was thinking the same thing, just using the wrong words! ;)

The SBD Dauntless used the exact same "trapeze" method as well.

PS, I heard it called a "cradle" :D

[Flying Pencil]

PS - I was looking for a video which would demonstrate the movement of the trapeze, when I stumbled upon this gem of historical accuracy. :rolleyes: (watch from 3:45 until 4:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PzfGAZvT5M

LOL, yeah!

"New Russian fighter" = Mig 15!!1!one!

Then showed new Stuaks, that looked much like He 111 and Bf 109! D'OH!

[Splitter]

Yeah, I finally got to watch that with sound today....new Russian fighter. I've watched a few "All you want to know" on youtube....they leave a lot to be desired. Maybe it's just a function of limited time, but they leave some wrong impressions.

No excuse for the Mig though lol

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

I think this device was standard in most dive bombers, for example the SBD Dauntless: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Douglas_SBD_Dive_Bomber_over_Wake_Island,_1 943.jpg

I'm not sure about the D3A Val however, the pictures i found were not clear enough. I didn't look thoroughly to be honest, just a quick search, so others might be able to find more information :-P

This one do ????



http://lh6.ggpht.com/_qJnzSrKGFs4/SEyRx7IuHgI/AAAAAAAADbk/j9n8qyWExTE/DSC02305.jpg

[Romanator21]

No Val's currently exist - what you're looking at is a modified Vultee Valiant used to shoot movies :grin:

However, they did use a trapeze system.

[Flying Pencil]

No Val's currently exist - what you're looking at is a modified Vultee Valiant used to shoot movies :grin:

However, they did use a trapeze system.

Actually, One Val does exist! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_bomber#Survivors)

[LukeFF]

Actually, One Val does exist! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_bomber#Survivors)

Yes, and it's not far from me:

http://www.planesoffame.org/index.php?page=restoration-projects

[Romanator21]

Well that just made my day mate! :grin:

[Darkstuka]

Hey all first time posting in here figured I would check out were the SoW was at. I use to have a website on the Stuka it was stukaguide.com a long time ago. The Bomb was guided by the arm it did not stay on the arm once the arm lowered into position the bomb was released. One thing I will tell you about the Stuka that no other plane had at the time was a radio altimeter this would shoot a radio wave to the ground and it would bounce back and tell you how far you were from the ground it was the first of its kind and it was what made the auto pullout possible. This meant no matter where the ground was from sea level the Stuka would release and pull out at a set distance from the ground not sea. There were two settings on the Radio altimeter one for a buzzer to let the pilot know when to release the bomb and the other was when it would release the bomb and pull out by itself in case the pilot was knocked out from the dive. At pull out the trim would pull the plane out. Before the dive the pilot would set supercharger to first position, set trim to neutral trim(elevator and rudder), close radiator, set flaps to neutral, throttle back, turn on siren, and the act of extending the dive brakes would put the plane into a controlled stall nose down into the dive.The pilot would have to open radiator full and throttle up slowly so the torque would not turn the plane over and retrim the plane for level flight or as one stuka pilot I talked to the Get the Hell out of there setting. ;)

[Sven]

Hey all first time posting in here figured I would check out were the SoW was at. I use to have a website on the Stuka it was stukaguide.com a long time ago. The Bomb was guided by the arm it did not stay on the arm once the arm lowered into position the bomb was released. One thing I will tell you about the Stuka that no other plane had at the time was a radio altimeter this would shoot a radio wave to the ground and it would bounce back and tell you how far you were from the ground it was the first of its kind and it was what made the auto pullout possible. This meant no matter where the ground was from sea level the Stuka would release and pull out at a set distance from the ground not sea. There were two settings on the Radio altimeter one for a buzzer to let the pilot know when to release the bomb and the other was when it would release the bomb and pull out by itself in case the pilot was knocked out from the dive. At pull out the trim would pull the plane out. Before the dive the pilot would set supercharger to first position, set trim to neutral trim(elevator and rudder), close radiator, set flaps to neutral, throttle back, turn on siren, and the act of extending the dive brakes would put the plane into a controlled stall nose down into the dive.The pilot would have to open radiator full and throttle up slowly so the torque would not turn the plane over and retrim the plane for level flight or as one stuka pilot I talked to the Get the Hell out of there setting. ;)

Now that is useful information! Thanks a lot:grin: I didn't even know about the radio altimeter;)

[Fafnir_6]

Well that just made my day mate! :grin:

+1

I knew PoF had a D3A but I had no idea the restoration was proceeding so well. Here's hoping the Goodwin Sands Do17Z salvage/restoration will have the same result!

Cheers and thanks LukeFF for the link,

Fafnir_6

[Romanator21]

Hey all first time posting in here figured I would check out were the SoW was at. I use to have a website on the Stuka it was stukaguide.com a long time ago. The Bomb was guided by the arm it did not stay on the arm once the arm lowered into position the bomb was released. One thing I will tell you about the Stuka that no other plane had at the time was a radio altimeter this would shoot a radio wave to the ground and it would bounce back and tell you how far you were from the ground it was the first of its kind and it was what made the auto pullout possible. This meant no matter where the ground was from sea level the Stuka would release and pull out at a set distance from the ground not sea. There were two settings on the Radio altimeter one for a buzzer to let the pilot know when to release the bomb and the other was when it would release the bomb and pull out by itself in case the pilot was knocked out from the dive. At pull out the trim would pull the plane out. Before the dive the pilot would set supercharger to first position, set trim to neutral trim(elevator and rudder), close radiator, set flaps to neutral, throttle back, turn on siren, and the act of extending the dive brakes would put the plane into a controlled stall nose down into the dive.The pilot would have to open radiator full and throttle up slowly so the torque would not turn the plane over and retrim the plane for level flight or as one stuka pilot I talked to the Get the Hell out of there setting. ;)

In Il-2 the Bf-110 has a radio-altimeter which only goes to 750 meters I think (usefull for night landings).

I'm not so sure that technology was present in early Stukas at least. However, it doesn't really need a radio altimeter. Prior to the bomb run, the pilot can set the bomb release altitude, taking the height of the ground above sea level into account (assuming he made a flight plan of his mission :grin:) . This function is modeled in IL-2, and is indicated by a red cursor on the altimeter which is moved with "Increase bomb-sight altitude" and "Decrease bomb-sight altitude" keys.

Extending the air-brake activates the automatic system (For me this is "A"). When the airplane's altitude falls below the red line, the bombs will release automatically, and the pull out is initiated.

You can set this altitude to 0 meters if you want total control of when the bombs are released, but I try to release BEFORE the altitude indicator reaches the red cursor. I set the cursor to a minimum of 750 meters AGL to ensure that I'm not trimming hedges and catching flak :) If the bombs release before I'm ready, then so be it - I have a much better chance of surviving.

[Darkstuka]

In Il-2 the Bf-110 has a radio-altimeter which only goes to 750 meters I think (usefull for night landings).

I'm not so sure that technology was present in early Stukas at least. However, it doesn't really need a radio altimeter. Prior to the bomb run, the pilot can set the bomb release altitude, taking the height of the ground above sea level into account (assuming he made a flight plan of his mission :grin:) . This function is modeled in IL-2, and is indicated by a red cursor on the altimeter which is moved with "Increase bomb-sight altitude" and "Decrease bomb-sight altitude" keys.

Extending the air-brake activates the automatic system (For me this is "A"). When the airplane's altitude falls below the red line, the bombs will release automatically, and the pull out is initiated.

You can set this altitude to 0 meters if you want total control of when the bombs are released, but I try to release BEFORE the altitude indicator reaches the red cursor. I set the cursor to a minimum of 750 meters AGL to ensure that I'm not trimming hedges and catching flak :) If the bombs release before I'm ready, then so be it - I have a much better chance of surviving.

You are correct about setting the meters but the radio altimeter is what they are setting in the Stuka not sure about the IL2 all I know is the Stuka was the first plane ever to have this technology. I have talked to 7 different Stuka pilots and all of them said they remember the radio altimeter since the first one most of them flew which was the B-2. I still have one of the emails from one of the pilots and here is what he wrote about the Radio Altimeter.

{It was an antenna under the fuselage would shoot radio waves straight down to the ground and it would then bounce back and tell you how far from the ground you were. The Radio Altimeter shows up to 5km and has two needles one was set for the automatic pull out which was around 450m-750m from the Ground and the other showed how high you were from the ground not Sea level when both needles came together a warning horn would sound letting the pilot know when to release the bombs, after the bombs were released the automatic pullout would engage making the plane nose up without the pilot touching the controls.}

Here you go I found my old website from the archive I had the same guy tell me what every part that was in the cockpit and what it did. I used it in the instrument layout page. There was a couple he could not remember and I could not find what they did in the actual manual. http://web.archive.org/web/20030628031856/www.stukaguide.com/IL2Stuka/Insturments.html