Landing the BF-109

[Splitter]

I don't crash without a good reason, like battle damage. Even without a vertical stabilizer or ailerons I can get a plane on the ground in the middle of the runway.

Until tonight.

I know the the BF-109 was hard to land and claimed the lives of a lot of pilots. But I probably have more virtual landings under my belt than any WWII pilot had in real life lol.

Tonight flopped a 109 down hard enough to crumple the landing gear. Coming in steeply enough to see over the cowling gets really tricky at the end when you have to flatten out enough to touch down easily. VERY seldom do I set down without a bounce or two.

Even coming in low and slow, the runway completely disappears under the cowling much too early. My "good" landings are still white knuckle affairs. It seems to be a matter of flying blind and "holding what you got" until the wheels touch.

So I am looking for tips on landing this bird (the search feature on these forums stinks, btw).

What are your approach and touch down speeds?

Since it stalls at about 85mph (around 135kph), do you keep the touch down speed a little higher to prevent pancaking?

Since you can't raise the virtual seat, how do you deal with the terrible forward visibility?

Are you using a 3 degree glide slope or something steeper?

I am seriously falling in love with this plane. Offline against even Ace level pilots you are untouchable. I just can't land the thing smoothly. Oh, I can set it down like a feather with no cockpit but that's cheating.

Lastly, what are your last second "go around" procedures? I learned at altitude that being slow and jamming the throttle forward imparts a nasty roll lol.

Thanks in advance.

Splitter

[Blackdog_kt]

I'm a 190 driver mostly, but when going through the stock single player campaigns i had spent some time in 109s as well.

The way i did this was not the text-book 3-pointer, but rather a "better safe than sorry" type of approach and strangely enough, i found it easy to land thanks to its good low speed handling.

I line up at 200km/h and drop full flaps and gear, then usually approach at 150-160km/h, maybe even 170km/h. I don't fret about getting perfectly aligned early on, since the plane is pretty sensitive to torque from throttle variations and lacks rudder trim to correct the resulting yawing motion. For some weird reason, i find it easier to land while in gunsight view, i just put the Revi on the runway and point at the first fiew meters of it. By going nose low and slightly fast i maintain visual contant long enough, then when i start my flare i can usually see the edge of the runway beneath my wings to the left and right, which helps me be sure i'm aligned properly by judging how much of it is visible on each side.

In essence, i just use a safe speed that won't have me dealing with the nasty torque-induced roll when you advance the throttle at low speeds and then i don't glide it in like a normal landing, but mostly fly the plane down to the runway with the aim of touching down on the main wheels first. Instead of using a smooth, uniform glide, i fly a steep glide to the start of the runway and then pull the nose up to bleed speed, level off for the flare and touch the main wheels down.

Flare happens usually just as the start of the runway starts disappearing below my nose. The entire idea is to keep the glide steep so as to maintain vision of the runway, then pull back to a mild flare after you're positive you're over it. By keeping a slightly higher approach speed you avoid that nasty roll when advancing throttle in case you need to go around, this also makes it feasible to correct your final glide path during flare by applying bursts of throttle. I normally use 30% or so during the 160km/h approach and correct with short, rapid bursts of as much as 60-70%, depending on how fast the ground is approaching :grin:

Hardly a scientific or pretty method to look at, but it works and gives you some energy reserve and the ability to apply power fast if you need to. When flying the 109, i forget about the 3-point attitude altogether. Instead, what i try to remember is "main wheels touch the ground more time than the tail wheel"...on takeoff i wait until the tail is lifted before rotating, on landing i wait until the main wheels are rolling down the runway before cutting throttle to lower the tail.

Another thing to try is set it off to the side of the runway and bring it in with a curved approach by sideslipping. However, because of the added drag involved when crossing the controls you still will have quite a steep glide angle and might also need a bit more power to maintain your chosen speed. So, if i go in at a similar speed and similar steep glide, what's the benefit you might ask? The good thing about a curved approach is that the runway is shifted to your side view, which affords an overall better visibility not only of the runway but also of the surrounding ground and airspace. Then, when the bird is over the numbers i straighten it up and fly a flare as described previously.

I'm sure there's much more finesse involved in it, but i'll leave the dedicated 109 drivers to give better tips. Hope it helps :grin:

[robtek]

My 2 cents for this are: there are a lot of ways to skin a cat :-D
I, for my part, go every time for a three point landing, regardless of the plane type, taildraggers only, of course.
The easiest way is the curved approach, as mentioned before, in a left hand turn with about 30% throttle, flaps full and gear extended with about 180 km/h ias.
I target the beginning of the runway and steer that i will have about 10 m height over the threshold and be lined up with the runway, then i cut the throttle, HOLD HEADING AND LEVEL WITH THE RUDDER and feed elevator to touch down nose high with 120 to 140 km/h.
With a little training that works like a charm, at least it does for me :-)

[jameson]

See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj77mJlzrc

In game,downwind leg @500m height, cut throttle, slow down to 300kph, trim level. Drop combat flap into final turn, at 90 to runway, @ 400m or so boot full rudder hold straight with stick and pull nose up gently, let speed drop to 200 to 180kph. Drop take off then landing flaps. Line up with runway @350m, point nose on ground before run way, throttle to 1.7 to 1.9 ata. Now the tricky bit, fly at the spot, as low as you dare without nosing in, you develop a feel for it, then level out just before or at aimpoint. Speed should be 150/ 160 kph, when threshold appears gently but promptly close throttle. Try to keep it off the ground as long as possible, with gentle pull back on stick. It should land with slight bump. S! Oh forgot, drop wheels after flaps. lol!

[Qpassa]

160-200 kmh and you wont have any problem

[AndyJWest]

I've found landing the Bf 109 relatively easy, though the later versions get progressively heavier, and need more care in consequence. I'd say my initial descent angle is more like 6° than 3°, and I come in on a curve until I'm fairly close. The important thing is to find an appropriate approach speed, and then control rate of descent with the throttle. Counter-intuitively, I'll increase throttle slightly as I cross the runway threshold, to flare, and then hold it off with increasing gentle up elevator. Though you can sometimes manage a genuine three-pointer, this isn't necessary - just land with the nose well up.

[robtek]

During the approach for landing one should ALWAYS use the
ELEVATOR for SPEED control and the
THROTTLE for ALTITUDE control.

[Splitter]

160-200 kmh and you wont have any problem

You land at those speeds? I'm wondering if a higher landing speed might be a good idea. It seems that would solve the pancaking problem.

Blackdog, Jameson, Robtek, I've tried a form of all those things I think lol. I have always prided myself on being able to plop anything down on any runway given all the bush flying I do in flight sims. I don't pay a lot of attention to glide slopes (unless it's IFR) or early alignment to the runway. Blackdog's approach it pretty close to what I have been doing.

Heck, landing a Corsair on a carrier is cake...but this 109 is the damnedest thing. I ended up bouncing another landing so high (after a 4 kill mission...) it stalled on the way back down. I guess the game felt sorry for me and didn't crumple the landing gear on me again.

Grass runways are the worst. Very subtle visual cues in the peripheral vision. I think I am going to try abandoning the three point landing and just set the main gear down at a little higher speed.

I guess I just need a lot more practice in the plane. It certainly is a spoiler, you have to really jerk it around to stall it and take offs are no worse than other planes.

Splitter

[Splitter]

During the approach for landing one should ALWAYS use the
ELEVATOR for SPEED control and the
THROTTLE for ALTITUDE control.

Yeah, Andy, I find it a bit easier to be adding a bit of throttle right before touch down to level things out a bit.

Robtek, I guess that's an ongoing debate amongst pilots (and virtual pilots). Honestly, it's never worked for me that way, I can't get the hang of it. I do what feels right I guess. To me that's throttle controlling speed and elevator controlling altitude lol. My brain is just not evolved enough to reverse things :).

Splitter

[Pablo]

I find 180kph works just fine for me everytime. The 109 does take a bit of gatting used to but when you find the sweet spot you should never have any trouble.

[K_Freddie]

Crossing the apron at around 50kph above stall, and gently putting it down is the way to go on any a/c, in any situation.:)

[AndyJWest]

Crossing the apron at around 50kph above stall, and gently putting it down is the way to go on any a/c, in any situation.:)

Yup. Another way to look at it is not to try to land at all. Just try to fly slower and slower, six inches off the runway, until the plane touches down of its own accord.

[ATAG_Dutch]

So I am looking for tips on landing this bird
Splitter

Here you go mate.
I'm no 109 jock (I don't like the heavy elevators), but your post peaked my interest.
So I did a quick circuit and did this by feel.
We start on the downwind leg. You'll notice the starboard wing drop as I cut the throttle, which was a bit worrying! Also that I bung it up to nearly 50% throttle to gain a bit of altitude.
If you go to the actual youtube site you'll see the instruments and on screen flap n throttle settings better.
Hope it helps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6j8B6x4Ho

And here's a much tighter and steeper circuit, with a little bounce on touchdown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHHP9VKwh7w

[Hunden]

I come in at about 300km with no flaps as shallow as possible using as much of the runway as possible. I can usually touch down without bouncing to much sometimes not at all. And then its a fine balance between brakes, keeping the prop out of the dirt and running out of run way which sometime happens lol, that makes it fun.

[Splitter]

Thanks, Dutch and everyone else, that really does help (you are using Track IR, yes?). I would take that landing all the time even with the wing dip lol.

My lessons learned so far are;
Steeper glide slope.
Pull up before threshold to level out and hold it.
Keep a little more speed.
Stay easy on the throttle.
A main gear landing is fine.

Very interesting observation on the right wing dip when chopping throttle. I was landing a 109 a bit fast with a heavily damaged left wing earlier today. I was just a few feet off the runway. Just the instant before (or at the same moment) I chopped throttle, the left wing started to stall inducing a quick left roll, I was already at full right aileron to keep it level at landing speed. Chopping the throttle seemed to roll it back to the right just enough and I ended up touching down a just a bit hard on the left wheel and bouncing a bit. This all happened very quickly and I think chopping the throttle might have prevented me from dragging that left wingtip in the dirt. It's not like I meant for it to work out that way though lol. Pure dumb luck.

Splitter




Here you go mate.
I'm no 109 jock (I don't like the heavy elevators), but your post peaked my interest.
So I did a quick circuit and did this by feel.
We start on the downwind leg. You'll notice the starboard wing drop as I cut the throttle, which was a bit worrying! Also that I bung it up to nearly 50% throttle to gain a bit of altitude.
If you go to the actual youtube site you'll see the instruments and on screen flap n throttle settings better.
Hope it helps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6j8B6x4Ho

[ATAG_Dutch]

you are using Track IR, yes?
Splitter

Yeah, my wife asked me what I wanted for my birthday last year.
She still pisses herself laughing when she sees me wearing a stupid cap in front of the PC!:grin:
Once you get used to it it's indispensable though.

BTW see my previous post. I added another clip that'll be more useful. The first one was too long and low.

Happy Trails.

[Romanator21]

Not a Bf-109, but it's a quite similar procedure.

Everyone else has already mentioned more or less what would have said, so I'll leave it to the video to illustrate a 3-pointer.

You'll noticed that I flared too quickly which led to my plane "ballooning" and then floating on the runway. When this happens you're at risk of stalling and smashing onto the runway, so just add a touch of power to reduce sink rate, and let it come down gently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTcQqjH6GTo

[Splitter]

Not a Bf-109, but it's a quite similar procedure.

Everyone else has already mentioned more or less what would have said, so I'll leave it to the video to illustrate a 3-pointer.

You'll noticed that I flared too quickly which led to my plane "ballooning" and then floating on the runway. When this happens you're at risk of stalling and smashing onto the runway, so just add a touch of power to reduce sink rate, and let it come down gently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTcQqjH6GTo

For some reason, I don't have any problem with the P-51. Dunno why. It seems to have less "sink" when you flare.

Quick question: Why do you unlock your tail wheel prior to landing? I have always kept it locked in every sim to minimize the chance of a sideways skid on the ground. I unlock it when I need to turn off onto the taxi way.

For some reason, the "float" over the runway seems better than X-Plane. In X-Plane you can float forever in seems.

I also notice none of you seem to raise flaps on touch down. I was taught to raise flaps to reduce lift and put more weight on the wheels for breaking and steering. Does leaving them down give an advantage in reducing speed by drag?

The video with real 109's landing made me feel a little better about my landings :). Of course, those guys are trying to land as slow as possible to save wear and tear on the tires and breaks....I have no excuse :).

Yeah, Dutch, second video is better. I am assuming you touch down at about 180kph, maybe a touch higher.

Hunden is just a maniac with no flaps and that much speed lol.

Splitter

[Skoshi Tiger]

I find that most people are coming in a too shallow an angle (myself included) and flying onto the runway. We get away with it because the sim is too forgiving and even if we only get into trouble 1% of the time it's ok it only a sim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_411886&v=MANlq98Db_U&feature=iv#t=4m56s

I guess there is no real substitute for proper technique.

cheers!

[WTE_Galway]

Just download this ...

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3102

.. and practice this mission ...

http://combat-asylum.com/uploads/downloads/images/2007/10/369_7_grab0000_resize.jpg


http://combat-asylum.com/uploads/downloads/images/2007/10/369_7_grab0001_resize.jpg


http://combat-asylum.com/uploads/downloads/images/2007/10/369_7_grab0002_resize.jpg

[Splitter]

I find that most people are coming in a too shallow an angle (myself included) and flying onto the runway. We get away with it because the sim is too forgiving and even if we only get into trouble 1% of the time it's ok it only a sim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_411886&v=MANlq98Db_U&feature=iv#t=4m56s

I guess there is no real substitute for proper technique.

cheers!

I LOVE flying Cessnas in bush situations. A 172 can do some spectacular things. A Pilatus Porter even more....I swear I saw a sales video where they landed the thing on a tennis court (turbos props FTW). But those are very stable planes, these warbirds are a bit more touchy.

I think when your life depends on it, you find the exact numbers you want to hit on all legs of the circuit. I've had a fair amount of stick time, but even the best of friends won't let me take the landing all the way down to the runway (danged FAA lol). Usually you don't have AAA holes in your wing though. I SO hope weather effects are detailed in SoW.

Splitter

EDIT: Found the Pilatus video...check out around 20 seconds in. What an amazing aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GSHM4LlMIM&feature=related

[ATAG_Dutch]

Why do you unlock your tail wheel prior to landing?

I was taught to raise flaps to reduce lift and put more weight on the wheels for breaking and steering. Does leaving them down give an advantage in reducing speed by drag?

Splitter

I've never used tailwheel lock except when taking off from a carrier. The rest of the time it's not needed.

I've flown a 172, a 150, a PA-38 and a Tiger Moth (but only not very straight and not very level).
These planes are very light and have very low wing loading, so cutting lift is a good thing on landing (although you're stuck with the Tiger!).
Heavier 'planes with high wing loading aren't going to take off again unless you make them, so cutting lift ain't so urgent. A sudden gust could lift a Tomahawk but it'd struggle with a 109, or any other WW2 fighter. Depending on the wind strength of course.
Mind you, this is 'only a sim/game'...........unfortunately.
As soon as my lottery win comes through, I'm buying a Yak3.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I LOVE flying Cessnas in bush situations. A 172 can do some spectacular things. A Pilatus Porter even more....I swear I saw a sales video where they landed the thing on a tennis court (turbos props FTW).

EDIT: Found the Pilatus video...check out around 20 seconds in. What an amazing aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GSHM4LlMIM&feature=related

Fantastic video, Thanks for sharing! :)



But those are very stable planes, these warbirds are a bit more touchy.



Your right there. I think the point I was getting at was that because a lot of people try to fly the plane onto the strip (myself included) We tend to come in a lot faster than we should.

In Il-2 we've got alot of runway (and I don't think I've ever burst a tyre lasnding) so it doesn't matter too much. It would be good to get some short strips in the sim (SHort grass strips in SOW hopefully???) to make us concentrate on our landing technique.

bye and thanks!

[Romanator21]

Quick question: Why do you unlock your tail wheel prior to landing? I have always kept it locked in every sim to minimize the chance of a sideways skid on the ground. I unlock it when I need to turn off onto the taxi way.

For some reason, the "float" over the runway seems better than X-Plane. In X-Plane you can float forever in seems.

I also notice none of you seem to raise flaps on touch down. I was taught to raise flaps to reduce lift and put more weight on the wheels for breaking and steering. Does leaving them down give an advantage in reducing speed by drag?

I lock the tail-wheel for take-off (as everyone should do). Whether you unlock it for landing is up to you. Il-2 doesn't model cross-winds to the degree that you will need it.

I kept the flaps down because I had ample runway, and I didn't feel bothered to raise them at that time. If it was a short field landing, I would have raised them and started braking sooner. I should mention that I had full back pressure on the stick once I touched down. Relaxing after touchdown may cause your tail to rise even without the use of brakes.

Landing with a nose-wheel is similar in a sense, but for a different reason. You keep back pressure to prevent the nose gear from coming down too hard, or from sticking in the mud. :)

[Splitter]

I lock the tail-wheel for take-off (as everyone should do). Whether you unlock it for landing is up to you. Il-2 doesn't model cross-winds to the degree that you will need it.

I kept the flaps down because I had ample runway, and I didn't feel bothered to raise them at that time. If it was a short field landing, I would have raised them and started braking sooner. I should mention that I had full back pressure on the stick once I touched down. Relaxing after touchdown may cause your tail to rise even without the use of brakes.

Landing with a nose-wheel is similar in a sense, but for a different reason. You keep back pressure to prevent the nose gear from coming down too hard, or from sticking in the mud. :)

If things like cross winds, thermals, turbulence, and the like get modeled into SoW my wife is not going to be happy. She'll never see me...ok, maybe she will be happy depends on where we are in the month.

Things like that may tick off a lot of old timers, but it will certainly bring out the real virtual pilots (is "real virtual pilots" an oxymoron?). There is a lot more to flying a plane than most of us realize. Just learning to cross control or crab in a crosswind is going to drive some people nuts at first.

Landing a 109 in a cross wind might lead me to drastic measures.....but I'll go there with a smile.

Splitter

[Romanator21]

My sentiments exactly. I can't wait to have some "real" pilot workload! :grin:

I get a greater high from making a good landing than making a kill in this game. But I can see that I'm not the only crazy one :P

[bf-110]

Bf-109 landing gear was very fragile.It was said that was common to belly land them.

[winny]

(is "real virtual pilots" an oxymoron?).

Splitter

It is... and it isn't, so it is..or is it? I think you've inadvertantly created some wierd oxymoronic loop..

[zakkandrachoff]

I find 180kph works just fine for me everytime. The 109 does take a bit of gatting used to but when you find the sweet spot you should never have any trouble.

true

[Splitter]

It is... and it isn't, so it is..or is it? I think you've inadvertantly created some wierd oxymoronic loop..

lol, Just wait until I divide by zero....

Yes, BF-110, I would like to know what prompted the Germans to design the plane with that landing gear. In that they are rooted in/near the fuselage but fold outward into the wing, I don't see it as a space saving measure. It would seem that because landing gear mounted on the wings folds into toward the fuselage it is six of one, half dozen of the other.

Or were the wings too weak?

Seems like I should know the answer but I don't lol.

Splitter

[robtek]

The reason was that this way the wings could be easily removed and changed in the field.
Also the fuselage could be easily moved without the wings.
Btw, the spitfire gear is much narrower.

[Romanator21]

The design of the Bf-109 was pure genius in that, besides being a great plane, first flying in 1935, and carrying Germany through the war until 1945, it was easy to maintain and cheap to build.

The landing gear arrangement was chose for simplicity - The gears are attached to the firewall, which also supports the unique "A" shaped engine bearing, and which also supports the wing spars. Essentially, the focus of the plane is a single firewall plate, everything else being cantilevered off of that. A Spitfire for instance, looks "messier" in this regard.

The wings were designed to be able to be removed in the field in a few minutes without extra equipment to support the plane. After the E, Bf-109s stopped carrying wing guns, and this un-complicated the wings further. The engine plumbing was well organized, and the cowling had quick-release latches and could be completely removed in a a few minutes as well.

The 109 was almost no compound curves and very few components, so production is fast, cheap, and easy. The controls are well thought out on later variants, with throttle, flap control, trim control, landing gear control all on the left side so the pilot doesn't have to take his right hand off the stick - ever. In the Spitfire, the pilot has to switch hands to do work.

Btw, the spitfire gear is much narrower.

Very true, but the Bf-109 had the wheels canted in a weird way that gave them the tendency to swing unless both were planted firmly on the ground. Landing on one wheel (which is normal in a crosswind) would cause it to go out from under you, and result in a ground-loop.

Why were the wheels mounted this way? I'm not sure. But, I assume it was to save space.

[Romanator21]

http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/spit1_3v.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Bf109V1_3Seiten_neu.jpg/800px-Bf109V1_3Seiten_neu.jpg

[WTE_Galway]

Video of the EADS 109 gear collapse and ground loop a few years back ...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/05/29/224294/video-eads-messerschmitt-bf-109-undercarriage-collapse-and-groundloop-at-ila-berlin.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/galleries/images/12547/500x400/messerschmitt-bf-109g-black-two-groundloop.jpg

[Splitter]

I want to thank everyone for their help and for the video posted and sent to me via e-mail. I am cured lol.

I'll tell my new method for landing this beast, maybe it will help others:

I set up by making sure the tail wheel is locked, prop pitch to full and mixture to full (not adjustable in the 109 though). I get lined up as best as possible using the gun sight view. Lining up and being pretty close to the line of the runway is critical so I do it early.

What I keep in my mind when setting up to land is coming in steeply, this give me a good view over the engine cowling. I do not really set up each landing and pay much attention to altitude...this prepares me for landing damaged aircraft in a hurry.

Short approach. Long, slow, low approaches not only take too much time, there is too much room for error. The longer you are flying low and slow, the more chance you have of making a mistake and having to go around.

My "target" is about 300 meters short of the runway. I put that point in the center of the retical.

I lower the gear at 300 kph and once it is down I start lowering the flaps in increments to "full". If I need to bleed off speed to get to 300 kph, I just cross control (rudder all the way to one side, ailerons banked in the opposite direction).

Approach speed is about 210 kph, not slower. Usually the throttle is set to about 40%. Lowering the gear and flaps bleeds off the airspeed and any throttle adjustments to get to 210 kph are minor.

At about 50 meters altitude, right when I am over the imaginary point I was centered on, I pull up and point the nose at the runway threshold. This bleeds off even more speed and flattens out the approach. This is really the last chance to make any last second MINOR alignment adjustments.

Just short of the threshold, I pull the nose up even with the horizon. Speed at this point is about 190 kph. At the same time, I ease the throttle back to about 25%.

Now I am flying with the aircraft parallel to the ground, but altitude is dropping gradually. I am maybe 10 meters high at the threshold.

At the threshold, I pull the nose up JUST slightly so that it is above the horizon and I am in a slightly nose up attitude.

At that point, I just hold what I have until the plane settles onto the runway. I do not reduce throttle until the wheels are down and even then I ease it back to idle. Touch down speed is approximately 170kph give or take. Speed is not the issue here....just be aware of the rate of descent, the plane will touch down when it gets to the ground :).

Once on the ground, I flip up the flaps (just a good habit I think). I keep an eye on the edge of the runway by looking 45 degrees out of the side of the cockpit. If I am still relatively straight, I leave the tail wheel locked. If I need to change course a bit, I unlock the tail wheel and make very suubtle adjustments.

Once the tail wheel is down, I pull all the way back on the stick (flaps are up by this point) and begin applying brakes. If the nose starts to drop, I ease off the brakes. Now I am looking for the taxi way ;). Remember to unlock the tail wheel at low speed in order to make the turn to the taxi way.

I hope that helps any other newbs land the 109. It's only taken me about 100 landings and the help of this board to figure it out....

Splitter

[KnightFandragon]

Lol if I was a luftwaffe pilot id be shot for costing them to many planes.....I usually land at 200kph and that likes to break the 109 alot.....it goes bouncy, bouncy, bouncy....SMACK with usually a resulting fireball. prety much every other plane ive flown lands pretty well at the 200kph speed but the 109 haha. 109s landing gear need some reinforcement for sure

[BadAim]

I'll give you my method for landing most planes in IL2. (I fly the 109 a lot) First I'm usually going full throttle being chased by (real or imaginary) bandits when I spot the airfield much too late and much too fast. First thing I do is haul back on the throttle, next is apply full rudder in whatever direction will get me to the runway fastest, I then use whatever amount of aileron is necessary to keep me from spinning right into the dirt. If the bandits are real, they have hopelessly overshot me by now, and I pray that they are being roughly handled by the airfields AAA. At about 300KPH I drop flaps and gear willy-nilly in any order and hope I'm roughly lined up with the runway by now. Now the speed is really coming off, so I ease up on the rudder and start correcting all of the mistakes I've made so far (and that's a lot) First I start frantically adjusting the throttle and attitude to get me at approximately 170KPH and pointed at the end of the runway that I want to land on. The rest is easy. I continue to fly at the end of the runway until I run out of balls then cut throttle (if I have any on at this point) and pull the nose up to just above the horizon and wait for whatever happens. If My landing gear survives I immediately raise my flaps and start pumping the brakes and looking for a place to get off the runway, because if one of my knucklehead squad-mates isn't right behind me trying to ram me, the aforementioned bandits (assuming they're real and not blown to Hell by the AAA) are just about ready to pounce on me.

And that is how a 12 year veteran flight simmer really lands! :P

[Splitter]

I'll give you my method for landing most planes in IL2. (I fly the 109 a lot) First I'm usually going full throttle being chased by (real or imaginary) bandits when I spot the airfield much too late and much too fast. First thing I do is haul back on the throttle, next is apply full rudder in whatever direction will get me to the runway fastest, I then use whatever amount of aileron is necessary to keep me from spinning right into the dirt. If the bandits are real, they have hopelessly overshot me by now, and I pray that they are being roughly handled by the airfields AAA. At about 300KPH I drop flaps and gear willy-nilly in any order and hope I'm roughly lined up with the runway by now. Now the speed is really coming off, so I ease up on the rudder and start correcting all of the mistakes I've made so far (and that's a lot) First I start frantically adjusting the throttle and attitude to get me at approximately 170KPH and pointed at the end of the runway that I want to land on. The rest is easy. I continue to fly at the end of the runway until I run out of balls then cut throttle (if I have any on at this point) and pull the nose up to just above the horizon and wait for whatever happens. If My landing gear survives I immediately raise my flaps and start pumping the brakes and looking for a place to get off the runway, because if one of my knucklehead squad-mates isn't right behind me trying to ram me, the aforementioned bandits (assuming they're real and not blown to Hell by the AAA) are just about ready to pounce on me.

And that is how a 12 year veteran flight simmer really lands! :P

"I wanna party with you, Cowboy" lol

Splitter

[Romanator21]

It's good that you mentioned the steepness of the approach - it has to be just right. After a long and successful mission on War Clouds server, I made an approach which was otherwise good, but too shallow. The result was that I clipped a water tower that was out of sight under my nose. I carved a nice crater at the threshold, and decorated the runway neatly with my debris. :-P

So much for skirting around the outside of the map boundaries to sink a ship unnoticed, and later taking out an A-20, eh?

[baronWastelan]

I tried to land according to the method the LW pilots landed on the small dirt fields, from what I've read (curving approach, touch down at 130 K)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBpErzd3I&hd=1

[engarde]

I don't crash without a good reason, like battle damage. Even without a vertical stabilizer or ailerons I can get a plane on the ground in the middle of the runway.

.......

Since you can't raise the virtual seat, how do you deal with the terrible forward visibility?

Are you using a 3 degree glide slope or something steeper?

....

Thanks in advance.

Splitter

I took an aerobatics flight in a tiger moth some time ago.

on landing, a good degree of side slip on approach revealed the runway.

look beside the nose, not over it.

try that for size.

and as an aside, open cockpits are what flying is all about.

[KG26_Alpha]

I don't crash without a good reason, like battle damage. Even without a vertical stabilizer or ailerons I can get a plane on the ground in the middle of the runway.

Until tonight.

I know the the BF-109 was hard to land and claimed the lives of a lot of pilots. But I probably have more virtual landings under my belt than any WWII pilot had in real life lol.

Tonight flopped a 109 down hard enough to crumple the landing gear. Coming in steeply enough to see over the cowling gets really tricky at the end when you have to flatten out enough to touch down easily. VERY seldom do I set down without a bounce or two.

Even coming in low and slow, the runway completely disappears under the cowling much too early. My "good" landings are still white knuckle affairs. It seems to be a matter of flying blind and "holding what you got" until the wheels touch.

So I am looking for tips on landing this bird (the search feature on these forums stinks, btw).

What are your approach and touch down speeds?

Since it stalls at about 85mph (around 135kph), do you keep the touch down speed a little higher to prevent pancaking?

Since you can't raise the virtual seat, how do you deal with the terrible forward visibility?

Are you using a 3 degree glide slope or something steeper?

I am seriously falling in love with this plane. Offline against even Ace level pilots you are untouchable. I just can't land the thing smoothly. Oh, I can set it down like a feather with no cockpit but that's cheating.

Lastly, what are your last second "go around" procedures? I learned at altitude that being slow and jamming the throttle forward imparts a nasty roll lol.

Thanks in advance.

Splitter

I usually land it the same as a Spitfire in a slow long curve.

Here's some Bf109 landing facts :)

Bf 109 D:
"The controls, sensitive ailerons, and tail group were fully effective to the time the wheels touched the ground. So much for that."
- US Marine Corps major Al Williams. Source: Bf 109D test flight, 1938.

Me 109 E:
"Stalling speeds on the glide are 75 mph flaps up, and 61 mph flaps down. Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels. If the engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps and undercarriage down, the airplane becomes tail-heavy but can easily be held with one hand while trim is adjusted. Normal approach speed is 90 mph. At speeds above 100 mph, the pilot has the impression of diving, and below 80 mph one of sinking. At 90 mph the glide path is reasonably steep and the view fairly good. Longitudinally the airplane is markedly stable, and the elevator heavier and more responsive than is usual in single-seater fighters. These features add considerably to the ease of approach. Aileron effectiveness is adequate; the rudder is sluggish for small movements.
(Landing) This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

Me 109 E-4:
"I established a speed of 200 kmh to enter the downwind leg, 150 at the end of the downwind, a curving final approach aiming to reduce speed to 130 kmh halfway around, 120 kmh with 30 degreed to go to the centreline and a threshold speed of 110 kmh with a dribble of power to stabilise the rate of speed decay.
Compare this with Black 6 (109 G) where I aimed to be at 200 kmh at the end of the downwind leg and not less than 165 kmh at the threshold."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#landing

[Splitter]

I usually land it the same as a Spitfire in a slow long curve.

Here's some Bf109 landing facts :)

Bf 109 D:
"The controls, sensitive ailerons, and tail group were fully effective to the time the wheels touched the ground. So much for that."
- US Marine Corps major Al Williams. Source: Bf 109D test flight, 1938.

Me 109 E:
"Stalling speeds on the glide are 75 mph flaps up, and 61 mph flaps down. Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels. If the engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps and undercarriage down, the airplane becomes tail-heavy but can easily be held with one hand while trim is adjusted. Normal approach speed is 90 mph. At speeds above 100 mph, the pilot has the impression of diving, and below 80 mph one of sinking. At 90 mph the glide path is reasonably steep and the view fairly good. Longitudinally the airplane is markedly stable, and the elevator heavier and more responsive than is usual in single-seater fighters. These features add considerably to the ease of approach. Aileron effectiveness is adequate; the rudder is sluggish for small movements.
(Landing) This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

Me 109 E-4:
"I established a speed of 200 kmh to enter the downwind leg, 150 at the end of the downwind, a curving final approach aiming to reduce speed to 130 kmh halfway around, 120 kmh with 30 degreed to go to the centreline and a threshold speed of 110 kmh with a dribble of power to stabilise the rate of speed decay.
Compare this with Black 6 (109 G) where I aimed to be at 200 kmh at the end of the downwind leg and not less than 165 kmh at the threshold."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/#landing

That's just good stuff, Alpha. I'll have to try some of those things to see if they hold up with the IL-2 flight models. My pure guess is that at such low speeds I am going to see a wing dip and have trouble, but we shall see.

THANK YOU!

Splitter

[jameson]

I'll just lob a spanner in the works here to suggest that AI 109's E to k have the same landing behaviour and the same landing speed as that of an E4....

[Splitter]

I'll just lob a spanner in the works here to suggest that AI 109's E to k have the same landing behaviour and the same landing speed as that of an E4....

Well they are perfect pilots and I am far from it lol.

I did some experiments today and I can land at less than 140kph (or lower) without battle damage. It is a very precise thing though. Too slow and the sink rate goes though the roof while controls get sluggish and the left wing wants to dip.

My problem seems to be grass strips. I can land on a dime on a paved strip, no problem. A curved approach, like landing on a carrier in a Corsair, is the way to go. But you can't plop a 109 down quite as hard as a Corsair or at a similar landing speed (comparing aircraft to aircraft, not speed to speed). That 30 knots carrier speed helps on a Corsair. With a 109, that last bit of approach needs to be very shallow to prevent a bounce and you need some power on it seems.

I am probably being anal about bouncing the 109 a bit. Most of the videos I see of real 109's landing have a bit of bounce. But from my flight sim days, a bounce is bad.

Splitter

[Blackdog_kt]

It might be that you've reached a point where you're "stressing" yourself for no real gain or, to put it in a better way, trying to do better than real life BF-109 pilots. I too have seen a lot of films of restored 109s on youtube that bounce quite a bit on landing. As long as it's a predictable thing that you can control without damage to the aircraft, i'd say it's good enough. In other words, putting in practice the old axiom that every landing you can walk away from is a good landing ;)

On the other hand, if you have set a personal challenge to grease the wheels in a perfect 3 pointer every time, then by all means go along with it and share your findings. As long as the aircraft doesn't break into pieces or endangers other aircraft using the airfield, the rest is a matter of personal preference and setting up fun challenges for yourself to achieve :grin:

[kimosabi]

Another thing worth mentioning is throttle and flare. I always have 20-25% throttle and starts to flare a bit just when I cross the fence. If you hover by doing so(you should) just decrease throttle slowly to control the touch down. Actually, when I think of it, I always flare before touchdown. Especially in a 109. A 109 is one of the easiest planes to land IMHO but having lots of hours in it would help, I guess. A spit is much more difficult to touch down.

[baronWastelan]

That's just good stuff, Alpha. I'll have to try some of those things to see if they hold up with the IL-2 flight models. My pure guess is that at such low speeds I am going to see a wing dip and have trouble, but we shall see.

THANK YOU!

Splitter

I just posted a vid 3 days ago showing the low speed landing ;) What do you think? Crossed threshold at under 160 Km/h

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=183548&postcount=40

[Splitter]

I just posted a vid 3 days ago showing the low speed landing ;) What do you think? Crossed threshold at under 160 Km/h

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=183548&postcount=40

It was good and I incorporated the turn into my landing technique, but I have to "complete" the turn soon to line up on a narrow grass runway. I have also lowered my landing speeds.

Blackdog is also right in that trying to be too precise can lead you to making more mistakes. Case in point, I always try to land just past the threshold to minimize braking. Combine that with trying to be at low airspeed, minimal sink rate, and no bounce....well, it's hard to get it right at that point :).

Splitter

[baronWastelan]

Glad u enjoyed my little landing vid. I'm obsessed with landings myself, it's my favorite part of Il-2, esp the bf 109 because it is like what I've read (beautiful). The Seafire on a carrier is also very satisfying!

[kimosabi]

There is absolutely no problem making a straight approach landing if you're doing a slightly shallow one, and use your peripheral sight.

[WTE_Galway]

Another thing worth mentioning is throttle and flare. I always have 20-25% throttle and starts to flare a bit just when I cross the fence. If you hover by doing so(you should) just decrease throttle slowly to control the touch down. Actually, when I think of it, I always flare before touchdown. Especially in a 109. A 109 is one of the easiest planes to land IMHO but having lots of hours in it would help, I guess. A spit is much more difficult to touch down.


A lot of aircraft in game need a fair bit of throttle right through the flare when you come in dirty with flaps fully deployed. Its almost impossible to do the classic Cessna "cut throttle on threshold and flare" unless you have no flaps dialed in at all.

As a side note some models of the 190 were apparently not rated for deadstick landings at all, if an engine failed the recommended procedure was to gain as much height as possible and bail.

As a good rule of thumb, designers of aircraft at that time tended to make the recommended final approach speed 30% higher than stall speed (this is now legislated for civilian aircraft) so if you do not know the actual Vref for an aircraft just work out the speed it stalls at and multiply that by 1.3 for an estimate of the historically correct speed across the runway threshold.

[kimosabi]

Yep, but it's not impossible to make a nice and smooth touch down with the "Cessna approach" either. You just have to know the aircraft and how it bleeds in a dirty config. From there you can get a feel on how much speed you need to have when you cut throttle over the threshold. The 109 floats much better than a Spit so it can be done. Actually, I never used to do the 25% throttle over the threshold before. Back then it was always a bit high approach, cut over threshold and flare gently until touchdown.