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View Full Version : Heinkel 111, The Frantisek's remarks.

Rodolphe
09-06-2010, 03:49 PM
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Excerpt from the "Friday 2010-09-03 Dev. update and Discussions" .


looks fantastic!

But major factual errors(!!):
1. Nose gunner never sat like that. I have never seen a seat mounted there, plus physically there is no space to put the feet like that!

2. The top gunner, gun is not fixed on the bar but pivots on it, so it would be loose and point straight up (due to weight of back end).
*if* the bar position was to rear, then the barrel would be pushed aft by the wind.

3. The dg radio antenna, the reddish object just in front of top gunner, is completely wrong shape.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=3168&d=1283522637

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Rodolphe
09-06-2010, 03:50 PM
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originally posted by frantishek
looks fantastic!

But major factual errors(!!):
1. Nose gunner never sat like that. I have never seen a seat mounted there, plus physically there is no space to put the feet like that!

2. The top gunner, gun is not fixed on the bar but pivots on it, so it would be loose and point straight up (due to weight of back end).
*if* the bar position was to rear, then the barrel would be pushed aft by the wind.

3. The dg radio antenna, the reddish object just in front of top gunner, is completely wrong shape.

1. I do recall seeing pictures with a gun mounted on that location.

2. Apart from the gun swinging back because of the wind i don't see a problem or an error there. The gunner might still be alive... Actually:

screen 1 - pilot dead, bombardier dying. Top and waist gunners alive.

i suggest that you look at picture no. 3 where the gunner is dead. ;)

3. I'll leave that for someone else to reply. :)

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Rodolphe
09-06-2010, 03:51 PM
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as for the heinkel cockpit: He is sitting on a bench. (not a seat) -- here is the sow bob heinkel from inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny59blbrpla




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Rodolphe
09-06-2010, 04:20 PM
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Starting with the 3rd remark.

3. The dg radio antenna, the reddish object just in front of top gunner, is completely wrong shape.





The Peilrahmen PRE 3 (F 305) is a rotating unidirectional loop antenna installed on the roof of the aircraft.


http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3c.jpg







http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3.jpg







http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3a.jpg





Three different models of loop antenna, the PRE3 is shown on the right.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3b.jpg



Underneath the sliding glass roof, the Peilrahmen PRE 3 antenna has been rotated and his core is now parallel with the longitudinal axis of the aircraft.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3h.jpg







Throught the bomb bay, the orange arrow pointing to the rotating mechanism.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3i.jpg
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T}{OR
09-06-2010, 06:16 PM
Nice post!

Thanks for explaining the antenna types. :)
winny
09-06-2010, 07:00 PM
That's what I like, a 'disscussion over' post.

Good post, good info, good result!
T}{OR
09-06-2010, 08:07 PM
That's what I like, a 'disscussion over' post.

Good post, good info, good result!

Hehe, I wouldn't say it is over yet. :)

Rodolphe, do you have some images of the He-111 with the nose MG pointing upwards?
KG26_Alpha
09-07-2010, 08:44 AM
Isn't this the one shown correctly modelled ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/He111ant.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/shot_20100903_174258.jpg
T}{OR
09-07-2010, 09:19 AM
Isn't this the one shown correctly modelled?

It is. :)
Rodolphe
09-07-2010, 10:57 AM
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I love to see that some Guys paid attention of what I've been posting here ! :grin:


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LukeFF
09-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Rodolphe, do you have some images of the He-111 with the nose MG pointing upwards?

I have two images that I can post if no one else posts them first. Too late right now for me to post them.
Rodolphe
09-07-2010, 09:28 PM
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1. Nose gunner never sat like that. I have never seen a seat mounted there, plus physically there is no space to put the feet like that!

I could not find any photo (among numerous pictures available) of that "Bomber/Navigator/Gunner" crew member sitting on the front of the "Liegeboden" (bench).
Though not totaly impossible, this sitting posture is very unlikely.



http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege1.jpg












http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege4.jpg













http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege7.jpg












http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege8.jpg










The most usual lay down position.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege6.jpg












http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege12.jpg












http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege3.jpg









The usual sitting position is on this folding "jump" seat.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege11.jpg











http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege9.jpg












http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege10.jpg









On this poor quality picture, crewmembers take up the "Liegeboden" and the "Klappsitz" (folding seat).

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege2.jpg











Frantisek, B-Stand, auf Gefechtsstation !! ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/He-111P_Norway.jpg
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FG28_Kodiak
09-07-2010, 10:06 PM
You should take a look at this video:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3o6kp_heinkel-he111-h11-film-sovietique_tech
it shows a H11, but the most is similar to the H2
T}{OR
09-08-2010, 07:22 AM
http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege8.jpg

Does this picture show that the forward 'glass bowl' can be rotated and thus the MG that usually points down can point up? With this mechanism shown on the diagram I mean... or is this for something else?


You should take a look at this video:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3o6kp_heinkel-he111-h11-film-sovietique_tech
it shows a H11, but the most is similar to the H2

Yeah it is He-111 H-11, but never the less some interesting things can be seen in the video - for example: nose gunner/bombardier can also act as a copilot by moving over the control yoke from pilots position. I wonder if we will have this option in SoW? :)
Flying Pencil
09-08-2010, 10:02 PM
Hello everyone!

Sorry did not follow up earlier.
First the Do-17z,

THEN lightning hit my house and fried my internet. Still down.

Doing this from work (first day back)...

1. I see a healthy debate on the nose gunner
2. Missed the note on the gunner.
3. Did not know of that more cylindrical antenna, but it also looks different from the one modeled.

Finally that one modern picture of a fella in the top turret of 111 (couple of posts above, Rodolphe noted), that me!! :D
T}{OR
09-09-2010, 05:05 AM
3. Did not know of that more cylindrical antenna, but it also looks different from the one modeled.

To me it looks just right, not so detailed, but just right.
Rodolphe
09-09-2010, 08:38 AM
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Does this picture show that the forward 'glass bowl' can be rotated and thus the MG that usually points down can point up?




Yes, the Kuppellafette DG 1114-A serves as a mobile cupola for the MG 15.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Lafetten.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/DG1114.jpg







On the video of FG28 Kodiak, the Kuppellafette equiped with the MG FF on this He111, can't be rotate.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/MGFF.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/MGFF20.jpg








With this mechanism shown on the diagram I mean... or is this for something else?


It's the Bomben-Klappen operating system.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/BombenKlappen.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/BombenKlappen1.jpg
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Rodolphe
09-09-2010, 06:21 PM
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Could be a small 3D glitch with the A2-Stand MG 15 Doppeltrommel. ;)



http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/3D2.jpg



http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/3D.jpg






http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/3D1.jpg




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Rodolphe
09-09-2010, 06:58 PM
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Compare the A2-Stand MG 15 behavior.


Zurren die waffe, (Secure the weapon with the rope).

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Liege6.jpg



Entzurre die waffe

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/3D3.jpg


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Flying Pencil
09-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Yes, the Kuppellafette DG 1114-A serves as a mobile cupola for the MG 15.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/Lafetten.jpg



This should help clear up the operation:

He-111 A-Stand (nose gunner) operation (and yes, that is correct number for cupola, and yes, I misspelled cupola):

wBhGp23NS_s



This video of the H-2 does show the function well, couple of minor details off.
Still, incredibly impressive!
Ny59blbRplA
Flying Pencil
09-10-2010, 02:21 PM
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Could be a small 3D glitch with the A2-Stand MG 15 Doppeltrommel. ;)

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/3D.jpg

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No question it is clipping though.

The upper gun has limited arc. Mainly there to counter EA (enemy aircraft) diving on the bombers.
Practically useless, IMHO.
Flying Pencil
09-10-2010, 02:32 PM
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=3168&d=1283522637

Look at 1:57 in this video.
It clearly shows the flatter, thicker antenna, and the one above.
Even the cylindrical one is mounted one (used above) is mounted on a different base, not the red rectangular one.

Ny59blbRplA
Rodolphe
09-10-2010, 05:04 PM
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Thanks Frantisek for that nice video about the handling of the A-Stand. 8)



Yes the 3D "External View" of the PRE3 is quite basic compared to the "Top Gunner View". ;)

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3l.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3j.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/PRE3k.jpg

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