Friday 2010-08-27 Dev. update and Discussions

[luthier]

Evening gentlemen,

Another fruitful week comes to an end. Oleg's got a hell of a flu, so I'm doing a update for him. Apologies for making some of you suffer as you waited for your fix.

We've done a lot of stuff this week, enough for a few updates. Today we're focusing our new and improved aircrews.

Also a little bit of fancy flying (you can collide with each one of those wires).

[krz9000]

boom first :)

cool guys flying these planes :) i like the look on his face parachuting down :)

the plane could have a few more polys. the contour is quite edgy. polysmooth+1 & optimize lawl :)

[Shortgrey]

reboom second

[philip.ed]

Awesome (crap, have to wait 13 seconds to reply)

2nd place was stolen from me

[Skoshi Tiger]

Thanks for the Update

:)

[Fansadox]

Very nice screenshots but for the love of god start using AA + AF

[philip.ed]

This is looking so good; the crew look real! :D Question; will the effects for tracers be 3D or 2D (currently they are 2D in Il-2). I'd love to see how the tracers smoke trails could look and react in game.
Regarding fire; does it spread? This is too much to ask, I know, but I just wanted to know. I think I read somewhere that fire could spread and so I am curious if it starts out small and grows in size (as the fire in those shots looks lethal)

[Masi67]

I think I saw Oleg bail out in that last image:grin:

[drafting]

Great images!

...I wonder if that last shot shows that the crew tumbles on their way down? :grin:

[Pato Salvaje]

Awesome photos!!... Love te 4th one

Thank you for the post. Keep Going!
Good Job!

[proton45]

Wonderful screen caps....

I'M intrigued by the second photo...THE PILOT seems to be looking at the camera !!! I want to know more...it this a function of the AI?

THANKS !!!

[Hecke]

Awesome pics.

The Reargunner in picture #4 seems to be shocked because he's still standing and imaginary holding the gun though it was blown away. ;)



Picture # 3: Why do these parents let their little child fly a hurricane?

[Viking]

The first pic gave me a feeling of vertigo!

Viking

[NLS61]

Thanks for the update,
last picture I see aircrew exiting and freefalling in positions not unlike professional skydivers.
I think this so called frog position was invented much later when parachuting became a sport.
The an question.
will the problem be fixed that when one has a low opening and is les then three second from the ground but under fully opened canopy one is standardly still killed as in IL2?
I know for a fact that an open round canopy on opening will breathe once and then has its final decent rate.
I've seen people survive this sort of low openings without a scratch several times

[NSU]

look good

[chiefrr73]

Thank you Luthier and Team for the update and hard work you are doing!! The pictures are looking better and better. I hope we don`t have to wait any longer to play this game.

[fireflyerz]

Damn, second page....DAMN:evil:

[Bloblast]

Thanks Luthier.

Nice pictures.

[kestrel79]

Very nice screenshots!

I really like the first one. The colors look much better, not so pea green. Also I really like to see all the houses and buildings, along with some hedges in there. It's really starting to shape up and look real.

Also like the flame effects, they are getting better too. Would like to see them in motion (hint hint)

[Sheong]

The pilot bailing out in the last picture lookeds like Adolf Hitler.

[150GCT_Veltro]

The pilot bailing out in the last picture lookeds like Adolf Hitler.

Alsot the crew in the Ju-88. I hope it's only a joke. I don't think that all german pilots had the Adolf's mustache...... However the pilots details look superb.

[Stanger]

Man the planes look so awesome. Good work.

[Lufthaken]

Yes they look like Adolf,
but Adolf Galland ;-)

[philip.ed]

The pilot bailing out in the last picture lookeds like Adolf Hitler.

If that is Oleg, you're in deep shit. No SoW for you :-P

[BigC208]

The flames coming out of the wing of the Ju88 convey a real sense of speed and motion. Smoke looks very realistic as well. Coming along fine.
Has anyone else noted that Groucho Marx, flying the J88 cannot reach the rudder pedals? Only noticed it after enlarging the picture to 200%.

[PhilHL]

ahh those wires... that makes me want to test the damage modell of the planes :)

the crew looks great... and the planes are not low poly. i think they are fine. btw: the canopy of the ju88 isn't round in realife also, i think that was the very first post refering to.

I guess ic games is using pictures of team members for the pilot skins, at least maybe they did it in il2 :) so.. maybe it is oleg lol

just a little note: the wires of the radar station are not allways proper connected!

:)

[Flanker35M]

S!

Nice one :) Thanks!

[Jimko]

Evening gentlemen,

Apologies for making some of you suffer as you waited for your fix.



It truly is a 'Friday fix'! Without it, some suffer great anxiety and depression. :cry:

Great pictures! Great work! Can't wait for the finale! ;-)

[erco]

Great update- the smoke and fire effects are really coming along- love the smoke! I really like how the bomber crew looks more lifelike- less stiff, looking out the side windows- and how they're tumbling as they bail out- excellent!

Thanks for the great update Luthier!

[Alien]

I would love to know if the game will support such things as barrage balloons attached to ships starting from August 7th or equip of 19th squadron: Spitfire Ibs, or Ju-88s using their blenheim-likeness to fake land and drop bombs while landing gear rising. Or the fact that at least once blenheim joined the junkers formation and started to shoot.

[AndyJWest]

Also a little bit of fancy flying (you can collide with each one of those wires).
Was the Gladiator listed as a flyable? Ah well, it is now...

Looking good. Very good.

[rakinroll]

Thank you.

[Friendly_flyer]

I suppose that little flame ball on the Ju 88 fuselage is a DeVilde round striking?

The Gladiator is a welcome sight! I love the fin-flash it wears!

[Affe]

Outstanding :rolleyes:

(Pict.3) Maybe the sprit muzzleflash on the wings of Ju-88 reseize(too big) and change color for more clear (Wip) :-P

But the seize of the plane and pilote, ground, building, boat is very good (I not compare to IL-2 too old engine..)



Thanks for update Luthier

Gûte arbeite camarden! :cool:

[Blackdog_kt]

Excellent crew models/animations, they actually look like they're busy inside that Ju88.

The fire's origin point in the 4th shot looks like it is somewhat "artificially" placed on the wing (for lack of a better word), as if someone copy/pasted it on top of the wing and the textures overlap. However, the shape of the flames and the gradual transition from flame to smoke is the best i've seen. I guess that seeing it in motion will fix the small problem on where the fire starts, as it will shake and move and not be a still texture.

Great job as always, keep them coming and get well wishes to mr. Maddox :grin:

[philip.ed]

So the wires affect the damage model? Interesting. I remember from J-Kent's book One of the Few that he, as a test pilot, had a spell at testing what happened when certain A/C flew into wires, mostly from barrage balloons.
I would be amazed if you had, but I don't suppose you have recorded the physics of flying into wires etc.... :-P It's a really odd question, i know, but the general feeling that I can remember from getting from the results was that flying into the wires never really caused a lot of damage to the plane. Kent survived he ordeals anyway, so clearly it wasn't as dangerous as one may think.

[Space Communist]

Damn the smoke and fire in the 4th shot just look so good. I want to play so bad, can't wait to send those Krauts to the bottom of the channel!

Heh one thing I have learned from this shot is to be careful about flying just below and behind an 88 that I have just plastered, lest I get a canopy in the face.

[DarkCrow]

Hope you get well soon Oleg.
Thanks for the update Luthier.

[katdogfizzow]

Evening gentlemen,

Apologies for making some of you suffer as you waited for your fix.



.....snooooooort


thx, that water is looking awesome

[philip.ed]

The propellors in these shots look like the kind that you see in a movie (or a photo). Is this deliberate? It'd be cool to choose between different looks for how the propellor displays in-game :-P

[Affe]

+1

Good idea philip.

Maybe is the real moving of propeller but it's not like in my mind.

1:>) Full propeller (Stock)

2:>) Light multiple pale fast moving.

3:>) Dark pale at low speed (Like U.I 1,2 *PropTex*)

[kendo65]

The flames coming out of the wing of the Ju88 convey a real sense of speed and motion. Smoke looks very realistic as well.

I agree. Smoke and flames seem to have developed really well in the last few weeks.


We've done a lot of stuff this week, enough for a few updates. Today we're focusing our new and improved aircrews.
Does this mean we'll be treated to more updates this week? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? ;)

[holdenbj]

Great work 1c!

Goose bumps.......:) I wants me Hurri now!:rolleyes:

Thanks for update Luthier & Get well soon Oleg.

[Towarisch]

Thank you so much for your works, and for the Update this week Luthier.

Great Shoots.

And I CAN`T wait no longer for this nice great Game ;) but We must.:roll:...snief


Have a nice weekend. And relax

[HB252]

Hi Lutier and Teamwork guys!!

Nice update!

Just one request:

No more pilots or aircrews professionals or experts paratroopers!!!!!!!!!------

-----> They got an position or posture in the air when bail out very unnatural. They got a modern posture ( I have see it in 2 shots: when a pilot bail out from his Spit and this)

I have read (Heinz Knoke or Rudel books) and see in videos (youtube) that when a pilot bail out, he falls down in the air like a rag doll, spinning and rolling out of control dragged by the air stream and by the flow of air from the propeler of his plane.

I think that it is very important for realism in the sim.

S!

[Hunger]

The crew looks very lifelike, you almost think that they will start to talk to each other.

Kudos. :grin:

Regards
Hunger

[Towarisch]

And Oleg ....Получить обратно к здоровью

[GBrutus]

Great update, love shot number 4 in particular.

[GBrutus]

Meant to ask, is the Gladiator going to be flyable?

[zakkandrachoff]

Awesome pics.

The Reargunner in picture #4 seems to be shocked because he's still standing and imaginary holding the gun though it was blown away. ;)



Picture # 3: Why do these parents let their little child fly a hurricane?

yep!, he must be dead or already jump
http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/zakkandrachoff/Untitled-1-1.jpg

[arjisme]

The propellors in these shots look like the kind that you see in a movie (or a photo). Is this deliberate? It'd be cool to choose between different looks for how the propellor displays in-game :-P

Interestingly, the propellers in the first two shots don't look like that. :confused:

[AdMan]

I figured out why buildings still look like lego land

There are no hedges or plant growth around any of the buildings. Hedges, bushes, are common decorative trim and would help integrate buildings with the land same with vines, moss, and dirt growing upwards on the buildings, I think I've seen moss on some of the building textures but I think they should be more pronounced, especially along the bottom.

[Blakduk]

Great pics!
Pics #3 & #4 make me wonder- just how did the crew of a Ju88 bail out?????

[major_setback]

Nice update.
The sea loooks great today. Nice highlights.

The plane shine seems to have been perfected, it has looked very good in the past few updates.

I would prefer the Hurricane pilot to be immobile rather than placed too low in the cockpit. It is very noticeable.

Thanks for the update, it is always very welcome!

[lbuchele]

Hi,Luthier thanks for the update.
I´m curious about the way aircrew exit the damaged planes.
Did they actually "work" their way out of the plane or they do more like Il2 scaping thru the fuselage?

[bf-110]

also a little bit of fancy flying (you can collide with each one of those wires).

:-ppppp

Nice!
BTW,those pilots really resemble National Kid...

[Zorin]

First off: Get well soon Oleg.

Regarding the new screenshots.

1. Coming together nicely. Everything starts to feel natural.
2. The Ju88 model does show its age, which is sad. Your Do215/17 already has modelled thickness for the hull and canopies, which the Ju88 doesn't have and results in a IL-2 look I had hoped not to see in SoW.
3. Will the aircrews on multi-crew crafts all have the same face? I thought they would not, but the screenshots lead us to believe otherwise.
4. Does the Ju88 skin shown in the shot show a bump map yet? It doesn't look like it. There is a hint of a specular map in the "bail-out" top shot, I believe, though.

On a personal note: Thanks for fixing the small glitches on the Bf110. Highly appreciated :)

[zxwings]

Actually I think the flames in IL-2 look better. Sorry for this incongruous remark.

[Blackdog_kt]

Judging from the fact that even in IL2 one could have multiple different faces for pilots and even import his own, i guess it's going to be the same with SoW. Maybe they just didn't care about inserting different faces, because they wanted us to focus more on how the crew moves, eg the bailout scene and the way the pilot looks around in the second picture? Just a thought. In any case, i think it's safe to assume that even when small details are concerned SoW will be at least on par with IL2. In that sense, i don't worry about missing features if i have seen those features in IL2, i'm sure they'll be included at some point.

As for the buildings, it might seem they lack randomized vegetation close to them, like small gardens, but the rest of the 1st picture is very interesting. You can clearly see that the field near the left edge of the picture exhibits plow lines, the fields are sufficiently different to prevent the repeating tile effect and they also have hedgerows around them. On the field visible just behind the buildings we can also see that they took care to mix different types of vegetation, as there's not only a circular row of bushes but an isolated tree as well and it also exhibits areas that lack grass coverage. I think we can safely lay the matter of vegetation to rest :grin:

What i'm really curious about is the tracers. They look a bit laser-like , but then again i'm sure so much research has gone into this that i can assume they are historically correct, plus the IL2 tracers also seemed strange to me when i first saw them.

I think that the whole package is coming along nicely and we've reached a point where we can't deduce much more from still images, in fact i'm guessing that a lot of misunderstandings arise from this fact. A lot of things that might look strange or funny in screenshots could be looking perfectly natural when seen in motion. This might be seen as an effort to coax the developers into providing some video goodness and in a sense it is, but it also shows how far the title has come during the last few months.
A short video showcasing some of the core elements would not only help to pacify the restless among us, but also fuel the excitement even more.

As far as i'm concerned, i don't even need to see full detail DX11 graphics glory if there's interesting stuff being done in the video. It doesn't even have to be combat footage if you ask me, just starting the aircraft up and taking it for a circuit around the airfield would reveal so much about the details and inner-workings of the new sim that it would be an absolute joy to watch (maybe that's why they don't show such things, to prevent the competition from knowing what kind of goodies it has).

If what we're seeing are low to medium detail graphics, i'm 100% certain that overall graphics quality will be near excellent. Sure, some things could still be improved, but graphics-wise it's good enough for me to go out and buy it this instant if i was to judge from graphics alone and it was available for sale.
The reason people get restless and nit-pick is because they've only been shown graphics thus far. That's what they focus on and since 90% of it ranges from very good to downright excellent, they'll start debating the size of individual leaves :grin:

In fact, i'm so satisfied with graphics that i've starting becoming much more curious about actual gameplay at this stage, namely the things that we didn't have in IL2. I can't help but wonder about things like the new complex engine management, radio communication and sound for example. I'm not apprehensive about it, i'm sure it will be done to an equally high standard, i just expect to be pleasantly surprised by these aspects of the sim and watching the whole community going "oooh" and "ahhh" over it all ;)

Judging from the rate at which progress occurs (we went from "these flames are weird" and "where's my hedgerows" to "these flames rock" and "terrain looks convincing" in the span of 2-3 updates), i'm going to be optimistic about it and hope that we'll finally see it during autumn. The more it improves the harder the wait becomes though, but such is the life of a hobbyist :grin:

[Romanator21]

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=3122&d=1282924241

Who allowed you guys to set a real Ju-88 on fire? Those things are rare these days you know. Tsk tsk...

BTW, make sure Oleg gets more vitamin C.

[choctaw111]

Thank you again for another great update.
Things are looking incredible as they have for a long time.

[Ace Cheese]

He’s not sick, he's inside the game! I knew it would come to this.:(

[luthier]

Interestingly, the propellers in the first two shots don't look like that. :confused:

Exposure. First shots were paused at 1x speed, the others at 0.25x.

I would prefer the Hurricane pilot to be immobile rather than placed too low in the cockpit. It is very noticeable.

Yeah, he accidentally got set into different plane position, leaning back sports-car-driver style. I was really late with the update so I didn't want to waste more time asking him to be reset.


2. The Ju88 model does show its age, which is sad. Your Do215/17 already has modelled thickness for the hull and canopies, which the Ju88 doesn't have and results in a IL-2 look I had hoped not to see in SoW.

You're kidding, right? Look at the Il-2 Ju-88 model again. The BoB model has almost 10 times the number of polygons and 4x the texture.

I just took a screenshot of the Ju way, way too close (Oleg will be mad). All models have a finite level of detail - get close enough, and you will see the edges. Today's computers have nowhere near the power that can render a super-detailed model that distance.

3. Will the aircrews on multi-crew crafts all have the same face? I thought they would not, but the screenshots lead us to believe otherwise.

The two guys in the front of the Ju-88 have different faces. They just both have a mustache.

There will be different heads and different faces, and all appearance of each crew member of every plane will be fully customizable.

4. Does the Ju88 skin shown in the shot show a bump map yet? It doesn't look like it. There is a hint of a specular map in the "bail-out" top shot, I believe, though.

Some questions put me in a temporary stupor sometime.

Yeah, there is a normal map on each of our models. Always been.

[Zorin]

I do not mean to be offensive, so please try to accept my statements as mere observations.

1. Screen: Old model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows.
2. Screen: New model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows. Correct shapes and all, but still.
3. Screen: Your very own Do215. Hull thickness modelled and therefor can be shot that close without a problem.

I know that this is a result of the long development time and therefor there is no one who could be blamed for this. It is just something that will be noticed like the IL-2 Ju88 being out of shape and blocky compared to later twin engined planes like the A-20 or B-25.

As for the texture maps, the normal in the Do215 shot, in the "model viewer" environment, had strong and noticeable panel lines and rivets, something completely absent in the Ju88 shots, that is why I asked.

[Pierre@]

On screen #2 above, posted by Zorin, where are pilot's feet?

[BG-09]

The pilot of the Ju-88 does not reach the ruder pedals with his legs!!!

I feel scared about the future of Sow-BoB...

Oleg please check the possibility to implement this technology in SoW-BoB:


I was quite impressed by that video as well so I did some research. Turns out the company that made this product got bought out by the makers of Second Life back in 2007.

The real-time volumetric clouds took only a month to create according to the developer:

I have to say that I’m really pleased with how this turned out. Given the task of finding a way to grow and render fully volumetric, full-sky clouds on regular hardware in real time, with the target ‘look’ being the clouds in these TG2 screenshots (which are rendered offline), all within one month, it was a pretty tall order.

The volume itself is based on a simulation – so you can ’seed’ the atmosphere with humidity and other parameters, and clouds will naturally ‘grow’ into the kinds of interesting shapes you see there – no artists required, yet you still get the ability to dictate the placement and shapes of clouds, rather than placement being random like noise-based methods.

http://www.stevestreeting.com/2006/12/04/nimble-the-3d-cloud-system/

The atmospheric lighting (WindLight) is equally awesome:

http://www.windwardmark.net/images/screenshots/windlight/mtn2.jpg

http://www.windwardmark.net/images/screenshots/windlight/tanks3.jpg

Pre:
http://www.windwardmark.net/images/screenshots/windlight/urbancomp1.jpg

Post:
http://www.windwardmark.net/images/screenshots/windlight/urban7.jpg

[PhilHL]

olegs pc.. as said ofter here.. has very low performance (he uses THIS pc with intention i guess)... you see the textures are very blurry.. no one would paint textures like that in photoshop... they are downscaled in the wip pictures...

and if hes running on low graphic settings...then the plane modells are also with "low" settings. watch those and you see how many details the JU88 have: http://www.stg2immelmann.de/FeedItem/554-Neue-Bilder-von-Storm-of-War/
.. Oleg must be mad always to repeat that this is NOT the final graphic result..

one hint to luthier and oleg... please wrote just one line in every friday update. that THIS GRAPHICS ARE STILL WIP AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE QUALITY OF THE FINAL GAME... :)

[Hunden]

Awesome pics.

The Reargunner in picture #4 seems to be shocked because he's still standing and imaginary holding the gun though it was blown away. ;)



Pictu
re # 3: Why do these parents let their little child fly a hurricane?
LMAO

[f/jg300_bart]

thks for up :)

[Dano]

Exposure. First shots were paused at 1x speed, the others at 0.25x.

That's just nuts :D

Now has Oleg merged his photographic interests to give us a virtual camera for screenshots complete with aperture, shutter and iso settings?

[philip.ed]

Dano; that's exactly what I was thinking! :eek: It's awesome that the propellor looks different on different game-speeds; I would love it if the player could choose (for a screenshot/movie perspective) different ways that the propellor could look like through different shutters ;)

Luthier; is prop refelction modelled? I ask as when I first saw this used in WoP I thought it was overdone, but after being to an airshow recently I noticed the reflection of the sun on the spinning prop quite vividly ;)

[furbs]

That's just nuts :D

Now has Oleg merged his photographic interests to give us a virtual camera for screenshots complete with aperture, shutter and iso settings?

I think i remember a update that said something like this...and even more options like lighting and stuff just for when you take a sceenshot.

[Romanator21]

I know that this is a result of the long development time and therefor there is no one who could be blamed for this. It is just something that will be noticed like the IL-2 Ju88 being out of shape and blocky compared to later twin engined planes like the A-20 or B-25.

I personally like to compare the R-10 to the D.XXI ! :-P

However, it's always possible for 3-d models to be updated after release. Look at what DT has done to the Hs-129 for instance.

Still, that Ju-88 is incredible by most standards. I can only wonder how future models will appear.

[McHilt]

Great update! Loveto see it as always

get well Oleg!

[kendo65]

...
...we've reached a point where we can't deduce much more from still images, in fact i'm guessing that a lot of misunderstandings arise from this fact. A lot of things that might look strange or funny in screenshots could be looking perfectly natural when seen in motion. This might be seen as an effort to coax the developers into providing some video goodness and in a sense it is, but it also shows how far the title has come during the last few months.
A short video showcasing some of the core elements would not only help to pacify the restless among us, but also fuel the excitement even more.

As far as i'm concerned, i don't even need to see full detail DX11 graphics glory if there's interesting stuff being done in the video.
...


I was thinking along similar lines. I recently made the move to Win7 and was able to re-watch the 'leaked' Spitfire video, only this time on full screen, and it completely blew me away.

The thing is that it looks SO much higher quality than most of the screenshots we have seen - the three-dimensional realism and excellent lighting really comes out.

Is it because that video has been done in DX11 or DX10 mode with AA, while most of the screenshots are pretty rough quality (no AA,etc) DX9 ?

Interestingly the other video showing the British vehicle convoy looked much closer to the quality in the screenshots. Was that DX9 too or just much lower-res than the Spit video?

Still, it leads me to think that the final quality of all this when seen in motion in the game will be far ahead of what is hinted at in the screen shots.

[Bloblast]

I do not mean to be offensive, so please try to accept my statements as mere observations.

1. Screen: Old model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows.
2. Screen: New model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows. Correct shapes and all, but still.
3. Screen: Your very own Do215. Hull thickness modelled and therefor can be shot that close without a problem.

I know that this is a result of the long development time and therefor there is no one who could be blamed for this. It is just something that will be noticed like the IL-2 Ju88 being out of shape and blocky compared to later twin engined planes like the A-20 or B-25.

As for the texture maps, the normal in the Do215 shot, in the "model viewer" environment, had strong and noticeable panel lines and rivets, something completely absent in the Ju88 shots, that is why I asked.

I must agree that the Do17 looks to have very sharp textures. But this Ju88 is a major step forward with IL-2's Ju88.

[David603]

I do not mean to be offensive, so please try to accept my statements as mere observations.

1. Screen: Old model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows.
2. Screen: New model. Hull with no thickness and AlphaCut windows. Correct shapes and all, but still.
3. Screen: Your very own Do215. Hull thickness modelled and therefor can be shot that close without a problem.

I know that this is a result of the long development time and therefor there is no one who could be blamed for this. It is just something that will be noticed like the IL-2 Ju88 being out of shape and blocky compared to later twin engined planes like the A-20 or B-25.
Its true that the Ju88 only has alpha cut windows where the Do17 family has windows modelled into the 3D.

Scroll down to the 2005 pictures on this link, and look for the pictures of the Ju88 and Do17/215 together.

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/category/computerspiele/storm-of-war-computerspiele/page/9/

Since both models seem to be a similar age, I would assume that when they where made there were not set guidelines for the modellers as to whether windows should be made with alpha cuts or modelled in 3D.

Its unfortunate to have this kind of difference in quality between two aircraft of such similar size and complexity, this is the kind of difference that would seem more reasonable between for example a Bf109 and a He111, or between a He111 and a Sunderland flying boat. Apart from the windows, the rest of the two models seem very close in quality, so I do think it was just the choice of the person making the model.

[Ekar]

olegs pc.. as said ofter here.. has very low performance (he uses THIS pc with intention i guess)... you see the textures are very blurry.. no one would paint textures like that in photoshop... they are downscaled in the wip pictures...

and if hes running on low graphic settings...then the plane modells are also with "low" settings. watch those and you see how many details the JU88 have: http://www.stg2immelmann.de/FeedItem/554-Neue-Bilder-von-Storm-of-War/
.. Oleg must be mad always to repeat that this is NOT the final graphic result..

one hint to luthier and oleg... please wrote just one line in every friday update. that THIS GRAPHICS ARE STILL WIP AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE QUALITY OF THE FINAL GAME... :)


This is all I needed to see...

http://www.stg2immelmann.de/media/1010/Helbig/ju-87-02.jpg


Convinced :-P

[johnnypfft]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKWPi8uHHoE

Video slideshow

[Foo'bar]

2. The Ju88 model does show its age, which is sad. Your Do215/17 already has modelled thickness for the hull and canopies, which the Ju88 doesn't have and results in a IL-2 look I had hoped not to see in SoW.

Hmm... I'm still believing that this kind of frame thickness is useless in external model and waste of faces. In my eyes the Ju 88 is looking beautyful enough. Though I can't wait to see some ingame closeups from the Dornier.

[He111]

Looks fantastic! Can't wait!

He111.

[Splitter]

I'm tired of saying "wow". But WOW!

I shall don my flame suit:
The details some people are talking about just won't be noticed by the vast majority of players unless they are watching a replay or studying aircraft/aircrews in non-combat situations.

That's all very well and good but in combat, which is what I am hoping SoW excels at, there is no way I am going to notice a pilot's feet, his mustache, where he is looking, or his hand position. Am I really going to notice the level of hedge detail while following a Spit through a Split S?

As someone else said, I hope the same level of attention to detail has been put into the flight modeling, optimized frame rates, and actual game play. I would seriously hate to think that the release of SoW is being delayed even a week to "fix" such minor graphics details.

A gorgeous game with obvious functionality flaws would be like a beautiful woman with a low IQ....good for a weekend but not for a long term relationship :).

I have confidence the game play will be awesome, I just can't believe delays to fix such minor, largely irrelevant details are really warranted. (and I hope that's not the case).

The screenies are stunning and I think it's hilarious that the aircrews all look like Hitler lol. If it was intentional, good on ya!

Splitter

[Zorin]

A gorgeous game with obvious functionality flaws would be like a beautiful woman with a low IQ....good for a weekend but not for a long term relationship :).



That is a bit like argueing why having a Prius is a good idea. It may have smart technology and all that, but at the end of the day you are looking at a hideous exterior and boring interior. Technology is there, working, but never really present.

So I could never settle for a Prius, cause I know that I could have a BMW diesel that out does it in every regard and is even as efficient while looking like a desireable car.

Therefor for SoW, the graphics need to be on par with the flight models and such, because this isn't a heating applience that only needs to do its job best it can without ever having to look at it, all you do is look at it primarely.

[madsarmy]

Very nice screenshots but for the love of god start using AA + AF

The game runs to choppy with those on ;)

[philip.ed]

Please; don't do weekly updates.

Do an update every other week that shows a video. Theses pictures, no offence, are boring without showing new features (this week is an exception). I hate seeing you take time out to put these together when you could be working on the game. A video once a month would be awesome and keep us entertained enough.

:cool:

[SpecialCake]

I see that the crew model features a mustache. I think this should be an optional feature, selectable in SOW's equivalent of IL2's plane setup. Select fuel, convergence, bomb and rocket timer, skin, and mustache on/off. Or another idea would be to have a hotkey to turn mustaches on/off on any crew model. It could be something like Ctrl+M, or Ctrl+Shift+M for all mustaches.

Just my input.

[Avimimus]

Certainly - and hotkeys for brushing and waxing (gotta look good).
More seriously: What about monocles?

He’s not sick, he's inside the game! I knew it would come to this.:(

:D

[SpecialCake]

Only for british, perhaps especially on navigators and bombardiers.

(Where do you stand on canes and tophats?)

[mungee]

Splitter - I agree with you 100%!!!I'm tired of saying "wow". But WOW!

I shall don my flame suit:
The details some people are talking about just won't be noticed by the vast majority of players unless they are watching a replay or studying aircraft/aircrews in non-combat situations.

That's all very well and good but in combat, which is what I am hoping SoW excels at, there is no way I am going to notice a pilot's feet, his mustache, where he is looking, or his hand position. Am I really going to notice the level of hedge detail while following a Spit through a Split S?

As someone else said, I hope the same level of attention to detail has been put into the flight modeling, optimized frame rates, and actual game play. I would seriously hate to think that the release of SoW is being delayed even a week to "fix" such minor graphics details.

A gorgeous game with obvious functionality flaws would be like a beautiful woman with a low IQ....good for a weekend but not for a long term relationship :).

I have confidence the game play will be awesome, I just can't believe delays to fix such minor, largely irrelevant details are really warranted. (and I hope that's not the case).

The screenies are stunning and I think it's hilarious that the aircrews all look like Hitler lol. If it was intentional, good on ya!

Splitter

[rga]

After seeing so many complains about the quality of a not-yet-releashed product, I make up my mind and join the fun.

First of all, thank you Oleg and Luthier for IL-2, THE great game that remains in my hard drive for over 7 years, and for SOW, the upcoming sim that makes my dream of flying almost true.

Second, for anyone who is still not satisfied with the weekly update pictures: you only see ONE part of the game, and this part is probably on LOWEST settings (sorry for the uppercase here, no intention of yelling, just want to make it clear).

Making game, like making any software, needs to be made in parts. The update pictures show us clearly, which part is being worked on. If today update is about aircraft, it's very likely that the terrain you see is only place holder. I personally bear no ill will against someone who detects the errors and shows them to the developer, in constrast, I believe it's very helpful and needed. Two eyes always see better than one. But any conclusion about the sim's quality is short-sighted and ridiculous if it's just based on analyse of WIP features (which can and must be changed several times), and worst, based on place holder features which will never make themselves to the releashed game.

I know most of you have high-end computer, so the eye candy aspect is probably your only concern. If some new games come to new life, your first quesion would be: "how does it look on highest settings?". Have you ever tried games like Company of heroes in the LOWEST settings? It looks like a completely different games: soldiers with box-like head, rifles like some firewood, tanks like they're made from plastic... But that's all what my stone-aged laptop can handle. And nevertheless I enjoyed every minutes playing this game, even more than some ego shooters who have 2000 Euro gaming laptop but know nothing about WW II. I'm convinced that what we see is on lowest settings:low resolution, level of details minimal, no AA, limited numbers of light sources, even simplified modell... everything that give someone like me the chance to enjoy a 2010 game.

With the current work of DT on IL-2, with their new features that were considered "impossible for 10 years old game engine" not long before, with their beautiful cockpits and modells but no FPS drop, I have complete faith in the ability as well as the qualify standard of any "Oleg games".

[winny]

There's alway's a lot of critiscism of little graphical 'faults' when the update comes along.

It's easy to pick faults with a screenshot from any game, WIP or released. Ultimately it's the videos that will really show us what's happening. (Surley there must be something video wise soon?)

Sometimes I think that posting the stills is counterproductive because it gets down to very minor details very quickly as there's so little to see.

[philip.ed]

I think we've been spoilt with some pictures that show incredible details; I feel, though, that a video would just be awesome to detail some of the great new features. That would be enough to cover a load of updates, which clearly must be a nuisence for the team.

[Hecke]

A video every 2 weeks instead of pictures and everybody should be happy.

And a video doesn't need more time to capture.

[tourmaline]

I think I saw Oleg bail out in that last image:grin:If you look closely, the guy jumping has even a little "hitler" mustache, LOL. Nice funny detail.:cool:

The screenshots look awesome, the radar station, the planes inflight, all very well done.

[BG-09]

Common guys...WHAT ABOUT THIS: The pilot's legs do not reach the ruder pedals!
It is killing me!

Or may be the pilot is waiving his legs in to the air intentionally for some rest because of the long cross Chanel flight...

[Tree_UK]

There's alway's a lot of critiscism of little graphical 'faults' when the update comes along.

It's easy to pick faults with a screenshot from any game, WIP or released. Ultimately it's the videos that will really show us what's happening. (Surley there must be something video wise soon?)

Sometimes I think that posting the stills is counterproductive because it gets down to very minor details very quickly as there's so little to see.

By all accounts the game isn't in Beta yet so a video may be some time coming.

[Insuber]

Common guys...WHAT ABOUT THIS: The pilot legs do not reach the ruder pedals!
It is killing me!

BG don't worry they will fix that or sure ... it's Work In Progress don't forget ... I agree with Winny, I was thinking exactly the same.

[kendo65]

cue Zapatista..........ah, here he comes now...;)


or maybe not...you might have got away with it Tree - maybe he's on holiday?! :confused:

[LukeFF]

Common guys...WHAT ABOUT THIS: The pilot legs do not reach the ruder pedals!
It is killing me!

It's the weekend. Get out and enjoy the sunshine. :cool:

[winny]

A video every 2 weeks instead of pictures and everybody should be happy.

And a video doesn't need more time to capture.

I'd be happier seeing a crappy wireframe version of a dogfight with loads going on than a close up of something thats just flat in every sense.. (no matter how good it may be)

If you stare at even the most beautiful persons face for long enough you'll find fault, video would show us the games soul, give a better sense of the overall feel feel of it. What's going on inside.

That short video of the spitfire over the sea has told me more about what SoW is going to be than the screen shots. I've never seen a sim move quite like it.

I'm not hasseling anyone for videos by the way! In your own time!

[nearmiss]

winny

right on videos really tell a story. When we start seeing videos it would be pretty reasonable to think release of SOW is at hand.

[Richie]

I made an update video



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZ_1-lhsIE

[drewpee]

Nice one Richie, great edit.

[Richie]

Thanks drewpee. It does take time getting the switches right to the beat. I put in some real pics to get the mood going.

[Flying Pencil]

Evening gentlemen,

Oleg's got a hell of a flu, so I'm doing a update for him.

I hope he gets well soon!
Make him drink lots of that fin Russian tea!

I want meh SOW now! ;)

(seriously, hope he gets well)

[Eries]

By all accounts the game isn't in Beta yet so a video may be some time coming.

Mommy!..... say it aint so !!!:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

****fixed****

[AndyJWest]

By all accounts the game isn't in Beta yet so a video may be some time coming.
I've finally figured out the 'Tree' phenomenon.

We've been working on the assumption that 'Tree' is a person posting on the forum, and trying to make sense of the postings accordingly. This has proved impossible, but if instead one assumes that 'Tree' is a computer-generated pseudo-forum-poster, his idiosyncrasies make sense. His endless predictions about the future release date for SoW:BoB, each different from the last, can only be indicative of a program which is reset on a regular basis, and thus has no knowledge of previous predictions.

Sadly, I suspect that 'Tree' isn't yet in the Beta stage, so accurate predictions may be some time coming. :wink:

[Richie]

hehehe good one. Tree reminds me of one of those relatives that we all have that we just have to put up with and be nice to at Christmas dinner. Mind you this place would be a little duller without him.

[Feathered_IV]

Tree is correct. Beta testing has not started yet.

[AndyJWest]

Tree is correct. Beta testing has not started yet.
Tree may well be correct. Beta testing may well have not started yet. But are you actually in any position to say conclusively one way or another?

[BG-09]

BG don't worry they will fix that or sure ... it's Work In Progress don't forget ... I agree with Winny, I was thinking exactly the same.

May be I am wrong...may be the pilot is waiving his legs in to the air intentionally for some rest because of the long cross Chanel flight...

Insuber, I am sure that they will fix it. But I am afraid that, Oleg is hurrying for the 70-th anniversary of the Battle Of Britain, planing to issue the SoW-BoB at this time. But, SoW-BoB is not ready yet...

[Chivas]

I'm not so sure that SOW will be beta tested like IL-2 was. The original IL-2 beta went very well as the beta was presented to the testers with very few bugs. Most of it was just nitpicking similar to what you see with peoples evaluations of the current update screenshots. They may just do an in-house beta test if the sim is coming together as well as IL-2 did. Or they could just sell the beta much like most of the other flight sims have done these days. ;)

[LukeFF]

But I am afraid that, Oleg is hurrying for the 70-th anniversary of the Battle Of Britain, planing to issue the SoW-BoB at this time. But, SoW-BoB is not ready yet...

Quit worrying already about things you don't have any control over.

[Antoninus]

Why is that something to worry about at all? As long as there are no mayor bugs an "unfinished" sim is better than to have no sim at all. Releasing a less than perfect version to finance future development worked well for Rise of Flight. Eyecandy stuff like correctly animated pilots, more realistically looking clouds or landscape isn't that essential for a combat flight sim and can be updated later.

[BG-09]

Quit worrying already about things you don't have any control over.

Wise advice. Thanks.

[Tree_UK]

Thanks for the update Luthier some superb work, so .....<Deep breath>......Is it possible that you could answer a few questions that most of us would like clearing up,

Anyhow here goes.

1. In May 2009 Oleg stated that it would be accurate to say that the sim was now 80% complete. Would it be possible to tell us what percentage we are currently at?

2. Would it also be possible to tell us if the sim is currently at the beta stage of deveolpment?

3. From the same simhq interview Oleg suggested that thousands would be playing SOW in October or maybe before. Is that still possible? If not will it be later this year or early next?


4. Will we see a dedicated SOW website?

Many thanks luthier.

Please note, these questions are for luthier to answer or Oleg if they choose to, If they choose not to answer then that is fine by me and understandable. If anyone wants to take issue with this post or make any snide comments or normal abuse then please pm me rather than post below.

[Tree_UK]

I've finally figured out the 'Tree' phenomenon.

We've been working on the assumption that 'Tree' is a person posting on the forum, and trying to make sense of the postings accordingly. This has proved impossible, but if instead one assumes that 'Tree' is a computer-generated pseudo-forum-poster, his idiosyncrasies make sense. His endless predictions about the future release date for SoW:BoB, each different from the last, can only be indicative of a program which is reset on a regular basis, and thus has no knowledge of previous predictions.

Sadly, I suspect that 'Tree' isn't yet in the Beta stage, so accurate predictions may be some time coming. :wink:

And heres me thinking you had put me on your 'ignore' list!! lol.

[Tree_UK]

Mommy!..... say it aint so !!!:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

****fixed****

Excellent post again from you Eries, its just like being back at school all over again, i take it your still at school though right?:grin:

[kendo65]

Thanks for the update Luthier some superb work, so .....<Deep breath>......Is it possible that you would be able to answer a few questions that most of us would like to know the answers to, but some simply dare not ask due to nasty/snide reprisals from certain over zealous fans.

Anyhow here goes.

1. In May 2009 Oleg stated that it would be accurate to say that the sim was now 80% complete. Would it be possible to tell us what percentage we are currently at?

2. Would it also be possible to tell us if the sim is currently at the beta stage of deveolpment?

3. From the same simhq interview Oleg suggested that thousands would be playing SOW in October or maybe before. Is that still possible? If not will it be later this year or early next?


4. Will we see a dedicated SOW website?

Many thanks luthier.

Please note, these questions are for luthier to answer or Oleg if they choose to, If they choose not to answer then that is fine by me and understandable. If anyone wants to take issue with this post or make any snide comments or normal abuse then please pm me rather than post below.

+1 with greatest respect to Oleg and Luthier
I'm sure most of us would welcome an official update on the current status of the sim to replace the endless speculation and argument.

[furbs]

yep...if they cant or choose not to at this time its fine with me also...but would be great to get a heads up on where SOW is timescale wise.

[Des]

Hi there,

a quick question...will the game have support for Trackir?

Thanks!
Des

[Hecke]

Sure. 6 DOF

[Des]

Sure. 6 DOF

Great!

Thanks Hecke

[kalimba]

Thanks for the update Luthier some superb work, so .....<Deep breath>......Is it possible that you could answer a few questions that most of us would like clearing up,

Anyhow here goes.

1. In May 2009 Oleg stated that it would be accurate to say that the sim was now 80% complete. Would it be possible to tell us what percentage we are currently at?

2. Would it also be possible to tell us if the sim is currently at the beta stage of deveolpment?

3. From the same simhq interview Oleg suggested that thousands would be playing SOW in October or maybe before. Is that still possible? If not will it be later this year or early next?


4. Will we see a dedicated SOW website?

Many thanks luthier.

Please note, these questions are for luthier to answer or Oleg if they choose to, If they choose not to answer then that is fine by me and understandable. If anyone wants to take issue with this post or make any snide comments or normal abuse then please pm me rather than post below.
Well...16 months ago, Oleg did indeed stated that the game was 80 % done...

At a rate of 1 % progress per month, that would mean 96 % is done...That is a more scientific ;) and objective :rolleyes: way to predict that the game will be finished in 4 months, just in time for Xmas !!!! Yeah !!!! Merry Xmas everyone !!!!

[AndyJWest]

Can anyone explain why Oleg should release commercially-sensitive information just to satisfy the cravings of a few dozen forum obsessives? As I've pointed out before, the release date may not even be his decision. He may well be in negotiation with publishers, or be contractually obliged to not disclose such information. Even if he knows the projected release date, and is free to disclose it, he may decide it is better left undisclosed. A surge of publicity about a finished product is likely to do more for sales than a dribble of information that only interests a few...

[Tree_UK]

Can anyone explain why Oleg should release commercially-sensitive information just to satisfy the cravings of a few dozen forum obsessives? As I've pointed out before, the release date may not even be his decision. He may well be in negotiation with publishers, or be contractually obliged to not disclose such information. Even if he knows the projected release date, and is free to disclose it, he may decide it is better left undisclosed. A surge of publicity about a finished product is likely to do more for sales than a dribble of information that only interests a few...

I refer you to a section of my post i made some while ago.

Please note, these questions are for luthier to answer or Oleg if they choose to, If they choose not to answer then that is fine by me and understandable. If anyone wants to take issue with this post or make any snide comments or normal abuse then please pm me rather than post below.

[AndyJWest]

This forum isn't just about you, Tree. This thread isn't about you at all. If you didn't keep repeating the same tired old stuff at every opportunity, nobody would need to make comments.

[Hunden]

Can anyone explain why Oleg should release commercially-sensitive information just to satisfy the cravings of a few dozen forum obsessives? As I've pointed out before, the release date may not even be his decision. He may well be in negotiation with publishers, or be contractually obliged to not disclose such information. Even if he knows the projected release date, and is free to disclose it, he may decide it is better left undisclosed. A surge of publicity about a finished product is likely to do more for sales than a dribble of information that only interests a few...

You crack me up!!!! and your not a forum obsessive ? You just can't stop with the insults....LMAO!!

[kendo65]

Can anyone explain why Oleg should release commercially-sensitive information just to satisfy the cravings of a few dozen forum obsessives? As I've pointed out before, the release date may not even be his decision. He may well be in negotiation with publishers, or be contractually obliged to not disclose such information. Even if he knows the projected release date, and is free to disclose it, he may decide it is better left undisclosed. A surge of publicity about a finished product is likely to do more for sales than a dribble of information that only interests a few...

I thought the request for information was made respectfully and with full acknowledgement that the developers may be unable or unwilling to respond:

...these questions are for luthier to answer or Oleg if they choose to, If they choose not to answer then that is fine by me and understandable.

You make potentially valid points, AndyJWest, but I would point out that it was Oleg himself who made the original statements about the envisaged timing of the release, and as we've almost reached that date a question about whether it still holds doesn't strike me as being unreasonable.

I totally understand that Oleg or Luthier may choose not to respond at this time, but perhaps a respectfully-directed question to the only people who really KNOW is a better strategy than the endless arguing and in-fighting that has marked the debate on this forum for the past few weeks.

Can anyone explain why Oleg should release commercially-sensitive information just to satisfy the cravings of a few dozen forum obsessives?

You could ask the same question about why Oleg decides to post an update every Friday...

[philip.ed]

This forum isn't just about you, Tree. This thread isn't about you at all. If you didn't keep repeating the same tired old stuff at every opportunity, nobody would need to make comments.

Stop playing with fire. You saw that Tree wrote that, and deliberately responded to cause negative waves.

I see that kendo responded in a much more eloquent way above me.

Oleg and luthier; can the oxygen tank be hit on enemy aircraft meaning oxygen use is limited at heigher altitudes causing pilots to black-out...?

[furbs]

philip im pretty sure if the oxygen tank was hit, the pilot would be out of the fight :) but if you mean the tubes connecting the tank...then maybe.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think it's been mentioned somewhere before that hypoxia and the use of oxygen masks (eg, having a key to toggle wearing the mask) will be modelled, as an optional difficulty setting.

[philip.ed]

philip im pretty sure if the oxygen tank was hit, the pilot would be out of the fight :) but if you mean the tubes connecting the tank...then maybe.

:eek: oops, yes, that's what I meant :D silly me

[Dozer_EAF19]

boom first :)

reboom second

I've heard of forums which have filters set to delay the publishing of any 'First p0st!!!11' replies by twelve hours... or which give short bans to users who post the stupid things :-)

The shots are looking awesome. Should probably start budgeting for a new PC about now!

pic5 - the falling guy is looking very upset, maybe because he can't find his ripcord? Or did German parachutes of WW2 not use ripcords...

Or maybe he's realised the thigh-straps of the parachute harness are too slack and when the 'chute does deploy, there will be severe pain in sensitive areas? :-p

[BG-09]

Hi guys again.
I taught a lot, why the pilot legs do not reach the ruder pedals in Ju-88...
After all hard work, I have got 2 possible reasons.
Possible reasons:
1. It is because the Ju-88 model is wrong, and the ruder pedals are too far away from the pilot.
2. The pilot model is small - we have a kid in to the cockpit.

How this can be fixed:
1. Elongation of the pilot legs? NO! /not in Oleg's style!/
2. Bringing the ruder pedals closer to the pilot? NO! /not in Oleg's style!/

Knowing the precision of work of Oleg's team over the aircraft models, I am sure for just one thing:
We have a kid into the cockpit. This conclusion confirms that the pilot figure is TOO SMALL, as everybody mentioned many many many times.

[Chivas]

Hi guys again.
I taught a lot, why the pilot legs do not reach the ruder pedals in Ju-88...
After all hard work, I have got 2 possible reasons.
Possible reasons:
1. It is because the Ju-88 model is wrong, and the ruder pedals are too far away from the pilot.
2. The pilot model is small - we have a kid in to the cockpit.

How this can be fixed:
1. Elongation of the pilot legs? NO! /not in Oleg's style!/
2. Bringing the ruder pedals closer to the pilot? NO! /not in Oleg's style!/

Knowing the precision of work of Oleg's team over the aircraft models, I am sure for just one thing:
We have a kid into the cockpit. This conclusion confirms that the pilot figure is TOO SMALL, as everybody mentioned many many many times.


Your conclusion is probably incorrect. Oleg mentioned that the figures are large enough for the time. In a Hurricane screenshot it was mentioned that the pilot appeared to low in the cockpit and the developers said that they mistakenly had the figure in a reclining position. Maybe this was also true in the screenshot your referring too.

[robtek]

They just have forgotten to slide the seat in the flight position.
By OM's realism ideas that will be a topic in the pre-flight check list:
"Seat in flight-position and arrested."
"Safety-belts tightened"
and if you have forgotten the position "parachute harness tightened"
you will get a surprise after bail-out. :-D

[Richie]

No Chivis it's Douglas Bader in their on his way back home after escaping from the Luft Stalag in that stolen 88. Unfortunately he was in such a rush he forgot to put on his legs.

[major_setback]

The figures might be slightly on the small side. Especially if you compare side-to-side with that sreenshot luthier posted of the old Il2 Ju 88.

I'm sure it is something they have noted. I wouldn't call it a fault though, I'm sure there are far more important issues for the development team to contend with.
I'm sure his hands won't always be on the yoke either, at least not in exterior view (maybe the feet are in a usual position for sitting).
And in real life you probably wouldn't see through the plexi-glass so clearly.

Photo not showing much at all :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-402-0270-05A%2C_Flugzeug_Junkers_Ju_88.jpg

[SaQSoN]

The figures might be slightly on the small side. Especially if you compare side-to-side with that sreenshot luthier posted of the old Il2 Ju 88.

IL-2 figures are about 20% larger, then an average human. They are something like 2 m tall. BoB figures are about 1.7m. Since you all got used to the IL-2 look, you feel BoB guys are too small, which is not the case, actually.

[BigPickle]

... will the effects for tracers be 3D or 2D (currently they are 2D in Il-2). I'd love to see how the tracers smoke trails could look and react in game.


I'd love to know this too but also will smoke in general be 3d and react when flown through?

[McHilt]

I'd love to know this too but also will smoke in general be 3d and react when flown through?

Now that would be an awesome feature, Do you remember, in apocalypse now,
when those hueys attack the village near the beach, there's a shot rearwards from inside the heli showing the smoke swirling due to the vortex from the spinning rotorblades...

Interesting point here!

[Tree_UK]

No Chivis it's Douglas Bader in their on his way back home after escaping from the Luft Stalag in that stolen 88. Unfortunately he was in such a rush he forgot to put on his legs.

lol, Good answer Richie :grin::grin:

[major_setback]

That last screenshot puzzles me. The white clouds in the background seem to be out of focus. I've never seen this before in the game or in SoW:WiPs.
It doesn't just look like smoke.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=3123&d=1282924252

[Chivas]

No Chivis it's Douglas Bader in their on his way back home after escaping from the Luft Stalag in that stolen 88. Unfortunately he was in such a rush he forgot to put on his legs.

Good thing that he didn't have to kick start the engines. :)

[BG-09]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-402-0270-05A%2C_Flugzeug_Junkers_Ju_88.jpg

Nice picture Major!

Once I have read, that in one case in the battle of Kursk - Prokhorovka, 1 Ju-88 attacked Russian infantry from a dive. Ju-88 droped all of its bombs. The Russian infantry opened fire from bellow with all possible weapons - pistols, guns, rifles etc. In to the following seconds, they succeeded to kill the pilot, and Ju-88 continued to fall down in diving. But then the bombs exploded from below, and the blast air wave pushed the nose of the Ju-88 upwards, and the aircraft continued to fly forward as a glider, an then later, crushed at the ground. I hope Oleg will implement such soft not-destructive air blasts.

Another awful moment from the war: Russian pilots of Il-2 reported that they often find after landing equipment and human meet belonging to the enemy infantry in some places of the aircraft. Such places are the air cooling orifices of the Il-2. The found objects: German belt buckles, Romanian helmet with human scalp attached to left front wheel of the Il-2 /the wheels where extended in to the attack, because the pilot was trying to imitate Ju-87 in order to mislead the Romanian troops/, pieces of enemy infantry jacket, etc. These objects have been thrown in to the air by Russian unguided rockets fired by Il-2 and than being "catched" by the aircraft in to the air. All this happens when Il-2 attacks the enemy troops columns. I think Oleg is able to give as more realism this way.

[Dozer_EAF19]

If they're not going to have blood in the cockpit when aircrew get hit, they certainly won't get bits of dead soldier on the outside of the aircraft. 1C don't want the game to be 18+ rated!

[Blackdog_kt]

I think the Ju88 crews are looking ok in size and they simply feature a different default position in the screenshots. I can sit inside a plane, stretch my legs and place my feet on the pedals. I can also sit inside the same plane and stand with my legs forming a 90 degree angle at the knees, in which case my feet will be resting on the floor and not on the pedals. That doesn't mean i magically became shorter, i'm just sitting in a different position that doesn't allow me to reach the pedals ;)

So, it could be that the Ju88 pilot is animated with his legs in this position (viewed from the left side):

_|-


instead of this position:

_/-

[Richie]

lol, Good answer Richie :grin::grin:


Thanks mate :)

[Insuber]

This kind of "realism" is better left to sick people.

[major_setback]

It would be nice if earth/soil thrown up from an explosion could hit the plane if you were too low. I imagine that soil will be thrown in the air, so you would just need a few sounds added.

[BG-09]

This kind of "realism" is better left to sick people.

Sick of what? Sick of War? War is not a game or simulator - everything happens. Of course I do not mean intestines rotating over the air screw! Ugly but realistic, ugly but historic.
I am meaning only equipment to fly in to the air.

Here is what I have found - the same IL-2 Veteran memories:

"It happened on January 18th 1944 when I received an order to seek out and attack in two ship formation by any enemy means of transportation on the road Volosovo-Narva. After we took off I got separated from my wingman due to heavy snowstorm. Trying to locate him I opened canopy, so it froze in the open position. What’s worse – I was unable to find my wingman. To make situation completely awful I found out that the right undercarriage leg is not working and sticks out into the wind stream. Still, there was no other option for me but to try and accomplish the mission. So I flew at airspeed of 320 km\h, with an outside temperature - 18°?. Snow easily filled my cockpit, ice covered the instrument panel and I couldn’t feel my legs anymore. To be able to fly I had to clear most important gauges by fingers. This all seriously distracted me from keeping situational awareness at appropriate level.
When I noticed first trucks it was already too late to attack. I begun turning to set an attack pattern, but first trucks had disappeared under the trees. I even became upset – the target escaped! But then I flew out of the clouds, and in front of me I found a long snake of infantry column. It was a gift from God!
Infantry was not covered by AAA, soldiers had to fight strong wind blowing them into the faces, so they were not looking at the sky, and that same wind did not allow them to hear my engine. I simply pressed the trigger and saw blue traces disappearing in the column. When first soldiers disappeared under the nose of my Il I released bombs. That time my bomb bays were loaded with 16 AO-25 fragmentation bombs with a delay set for 5 seconds. I kept firing, but there was no end to this mass of infantry, so I fired all eight RSs. By this time I flew as low as tops of telegraph poles. I had to abort the attack.
When I begun gaining altitude with a turn, my engine begun stalling, from the sides I could see the traces of awakened small caliber AAA.
With great caution I piloted my airplane by the shortest route to our airfield. The good point – my engine seemed to begin recovering, it sounded more and more stable, the bad one – German small caliber traces were getting closer and closer. As I got to the home base it was clear that there was no way for me to land on Gora-Valday – the right leg did not lock, so I would get dragged from the runway right into other planes parked along narrow airfield.
Borki had a round appearance, so I had more freedom trying to land there. With lots of luck I landed safely. I tried to stand up, but couldn’t. Then I noticed some hands searching through the cockpit, and someone said:
— You idiot! You forgot to lower landing gear as emergency procedure says. You crippled the plane!
I wanted to say that airframe is not so seriously damaged, but then I suddenly was engulfed by undeserved insult.
I took out my TT pistol, and tried to hit the source of the voice. Somebody grabbed my hand and took away my pistol. I was escorted to the HQ. There I ripped off the face mole mask. Usually it protected our faces from frost, but this time it froze to my skin, so I took the mask with bits of skin. I reported to the 7th regiment commander Major Karasev that I attacked the infantry column, that AAA cover lagged 800 meters behind, and that the weather was getting better. The Major asked me to show on the map where I caught the Germans, and ordered to prepare 9 Ils for the mission. Meanwhile somebody called the doctor, he checked me out, but there was nothing but mortal tiredness and little frostbites. The regiment commander ordered me to go to the canteen and then to rest.
In the canteen girls gave me 100 grams of vodka with pepper as a medicine against flu. As I ate, Ivan Bezhanov, a pilot I knew, told me that their engineer was not too keen on trying to send me to the court martial.
When two girls guided me to the dug-out, where I was supposed to have some rest, they brought me to the newly-formed crater. As a passing by seaman described:
— In this crater you can see all that remained from the German ace. Some time ago four FW-190 tried to strafe the airfield. An ace from the 14th Guards fighter regiment Konstantin Kovalev shot two of them down. One fell right there.
In the crater I saw man’s “device” with no trace of the rest of the body.
It was warm in the dug-out, but I was still shaking under heavy fur coat. Then I got all sweaty. For a long time I was unconscious. I woke up from poking:
— Comrade Commander, the regiment engineer ordered to give this to you as a present... We recovered it from the cowling of the engine and from the wing of your plane.
However sleepy I was, I still understood that he showed me pieces of soldiers’ overcoat, belt and one German shoulder board. But I was too tired to think about it and dozed off again.
In the morning I woke up as good as new. I carefully examined my “souvenirs” in the daylight. After breakfast I was told that my plane was ready, examined it and flew home. But I forgot the “souvenirs”.
While I was resting after the flight thinking of the «trophies» that I left behind, I recalled events described in the brochure that I read in the flight school before being assigned to the Baltic’s. This brochure was about combat activities of the Black Sea aviation ground-attack pilot Captain Suslin who arrived to our flight school and spearheaded forming of our regiment. In Odessa area Suslin lowered his landing gear to pretend he is flying German Ju-87 and strafed a column of Romanian infantry. It became clear that it was Romanian infantry column only back at the airfield, where pieces of Romanian uniforms, a helmet and a scalp with hair were recovered from the wheel wells! At that time I did not believe that such an episode could be real. Any impact of the wheel creates a strong roll-over moment and the plane would be drawn to the ground. This is a 100% risk. But these bits were actually raised into the air by explosions of RSs, through which my plane flew.
Now we are flying with Akaev with a task to strafe Klopitsy airfield. He flies at an altitude of 400 meters in a straight line. It was shocking but I maneuvered to avoid the AAA explosions..."

These Il-2 Sturmoviks have been busy with the dirtiest job...
The rest is here - very interesting:
http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/pilots/batievskii/batievskii.htm

[philip.ed]

The thing is this; if a simulator was bloody enough to make you feel bad, then that is good. I will explain. You see, in il-2 I always try and aim for the cockpit when I can and I don't feel bad about seeing a cartoonish character get killed. If, in SoW, the effect of shooting an enemy gunner/pilot was realistic and gruesome enough to make me feel bad about taking someone's life like that, I may be more chivalrous in my fighting in the game. So by this i mean that I may think twice about aiming for the pilot to at least give him a chance to bail-out.

[Insuber]

Nice read BG, thank you! Don't forget nevertheless that Oleg expressed very clearly his position on blood and gore, and for very good reasons by the way.

Cheers!

[philip.ed]

I agree though that blood and gore are the last things to worry about modelling in a sim like this ;)

[Aviar]

The thing is this; if a simulator was bloody enough to make you feel bad, then that is good. I will explain. You see, in il-2 I always try and aim for the cockpit when I can and I don't feel bad about seeing a cartoonish character get killed. If, in SoW, the effect of shooting an enemy gunner/pilot was realistic and gruesome enough to make me feel bad about taking someone's life like that, I may be more chivalrous in my fighting in the game. So by this i mean that I may think twice about aiming for the pilot to at least give him a chance to bail-out.



How about if you just witnessed your wingman's head being blown into a million pieces from that same 'enemy gunner/pilot'. Would that still encourage you to be 'more chivalrous'...?

My real point is not to forget that this is just a computer game. Although I personally like a lot of realism in my simulations, I do think that some people get a little carried away with their requests. Just my opinion, of course.

Aviar

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

+1 Aviar, its not necessary at all IMO, and it beats me why people would want to see things like that.....Strikes me as a bit freaky and Ghoulish. Watch a Freddy Krueger film or something if that kind of thing floats your boat lol. :confused:

If cockpit hits were 'realistic' in IL-2 dogfights would end a lot sooner, I'm sure Oleg was on record saying that in the past.

[Madfish]

Hi all,

I just registered to get more details on the game as it's progressing in development.

To those who say that blood would be unnecessary and ghoulish / too brutal; I must wonder why do you play a game where you shoot down planes at all?

A plane exploding means death in the same way as a cockpit kill with the plane plummeling to the ground. Where is the difference between an explosion and blood? Both mean certain death. Would that mean explosion effects have to be taken out of the game as well or is it just a double moral here?

Also don't forget that in pilot view the screen turns red as well when you get injured. Red... the very same color and we all know it's blood. If it wasn't intended to be that way the screen could turn pink or green.

In the end shooting down a plane means being aware of the fact that you kill. I'd even go so far that taking part in any conflict means knowing you might have to hurt or kill people, no, that you even want to hurt and kill people. Even more so with bombing runs - these are always, like mentioned above, a gruesome deal for the receiving party and sometimes even pilots.

I can certainly understand when the developers don't want to add blood as it may cause issues with certain youth ranking systems (especially in Germany, my home country) but then again, pretending that blood doesn't belong there isn't right I believe. In Germany swastikas are banned as well, another sad thing. I'm not a nazi at all but see, what is realism for you guys is banned here because of the history. Isn't blood the very same?

Let me say it differently: it doesn't even matter if any lifeform out there bleeds if you kill it. Even if it doesn't bleed at all, and there are ways to kill like that e.g. gas or poison or whatever, it's still a kill! Everything else is just visuals. We can take them out of the game one by one (fire from burning, explosions, shockwaves, craters and bomb effects, bullets and ricochets etc.) and even make the games look like funny bubbles - it'd still mean you kill someone. So adding >some< realistic effects isn't gory, ghoulish or overly brutal - it's nothing else but what really happens.

Just my 50cents on that topic.

The game looks really nice though. Is there any way to get a decent DRM free pre-order deal of it outside of steam? :]
Regards,
Madfish.

[Dozer_EAF19]

The thing is this; if a simulator was bloody enough to make you feel bad, then that is good. I will explain. You see, in il-2 I always try and aim for the cockpit when I can and I don't feel bad about seeing a cartoonish character get killed. If, in SoW, the effect of shooting an enemy gunner/pilot was realistic and gruesome enough to make me feel bad about taking someone's life like that, I may be more chivalrous in my fighting in the game. So by this i mean that I may think twice about aiming for the pilot to at least give him a chance to bail-out.

I don't understand this idea that combat pilots should be chivalrous. They're not up there for fun and games, they're there to defend their country from the invader! (Or, to help conquer another country to get the resources needed to defend the fatherland from the big country that's about to become the invader.) (Or, to bomb the other country so they can't defeat your country and destroy it.) If you're fighting for your national survival, which I think the pilots of all nations thought they were, then you don't deal in niceties. You shoot to bring the other plane down, you don't try to aim to avoid harming the other crew and reduce your chance of a kill, that'd be ludicrous, possibly even traitorous! Are you a traitor, Philip?? :-P

[Madfish]

This has nothing to do with survival or treachery. There have been many incidents or humanistic behavior and especially pilots aren't the murderous being you describe. There was in fact a lot of chivalry in the air and even bombing crews didn't tell the gory tales but usually they took pride in just downing planes. I believe that air combat is just not as involved as ground combat when it comes to really see the brutality. You usually just fought against "machines" and "pilots".

This said I might repeat that I wouldn't mind a little blood effect or two but things don't have to be overly gory just to show what happens. Also things don't have to be overly gory just to not be a traitor.
In fact downing a pilot and capturing him can be MUCH more useful than killing him mindlessly. A plane down is a plane down. What you describe, dozer, is only feasible in the act of attacking another country and thus fighting over enemy territory. Then it'd be reasonable to try hard and kill everything in side as they might go back home and get into another plane again.

Regards,
Madfish.

[Dozer_EAF19]

This has nothing to do with survival or treachery. There have been many incidents or humanistic behavior and especially pilots aren't the murderous being you describe. There was in fact a lot of chivalry in the air and even bombing crews didn't tell the gory tales but usually they took pride in just downing planes. I believe that air combat is just not as involved as ground combat when it comes to really see the brutality. You usually just fought against "machines" and "pilots".

This said I might repeat that I wouldn't mind a little blood effect or two but things don't have to be overly gory just to show what happens. Also things don't have to be overly gory just to not be a traitor.
In fact downing a pilot and capturing him can be MUCH more useful than killing him mindlessly. A plane down is a plane down. What you describe, dozer, is only feasible in the act of attacking another country and thus fighting over enemy territory. Then it'd be reasonable to try hard and kill everything in side as they might go back home and get into another plane again.

Regards,
Madfish.

I think I've been misunderstood a bit here. I never said anything about 'mindlessly' or 'brutally' killing pilots. I was only talking about shooting at a pilot when he's sat in the cockpit of his plane. I'm not talking about gore, you can't see it from 150 yards back anyway! I meant that, as I understand it, when there's an enemy aviator in his aircraft, most pilots wouldn't hold back from shooting at where he's sat, because sensibly it's the quickest way to bring his plane down, and that's the whole point of you being there. That's not murderous, that's an act of war. Shooting a pilot in his parachute is murderous though, but that's not what I said. My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote the last sentence too, hence the :-P

Some were famed for shooting at aircrew deliberately - 'Sailor' Malan of the RAF in the BoB, who ignored what I wrote in my last post, aimed to wound and kill as many aircrew as possible rather than bring the aircraft down, in order to demoralise the Luftwaffe. He probably should have just tried to destroy as many airframes as possible...

[Skoshi Tiger]

This has nothing to do with survival or treachery. There have been many incidents or humanistic behavior and especially pilots aren't the murderous being you describe. There was in fact a lot of chivalry in the air and even bombing crews didn't tell the gory tales but usually they took pride in just downing planes. I believe that air combat is just not as involved as ground combat when it comes to really see the brutality. You usually just fought against "machines" and "pilots".

This said I might repeat that I wouldn't mind a little blood effect or two but things don't have to be overly gory just to show what happens. Also things don't have to be overly gory just to not be a traitor.
In fact downing a pilot and capturing him can be MUCH more useful than killing him mindlessly. A plane down is a plane down. What you describe, dozer, is only feasible in the act of attacking another country and thus fighting over enemy territory. Then it'd be reasonable to try hard and kill everything in side as they might go back home and get into another plane again.

Regards,
Madfish.

Interesting thought Madfish!

In a mission a pilot gets shotdown and captured - after a suitable delay a message gets broadcast stating the location of their airfield and what planes and numbers were located there!

It would mean a pilot could make the ultimate sacrifice for their team by riding his plane down at the expense of his own K/D ratio! It would also give a sense of accomplishment getting your crippled plane over your own lines before bailing out!

Cheers!

[Richie]

What about an individual option for "blood - gore" reality on a list. If you wanted to fly with or without it on it would all be up to the individual it could be turned off or on no matter if you were in easy or full realism mode....problem solved?

[Richie]

I am not a fan of spilling blood. Like an English pilot once said on the series World At War..I didn't want to shoot a German down I wanted to shoot an airplane down.

[Dozer_EAF19]

As far as I'm concerned, the only use for any blood/gore effect is to give the feedback 'is that guy dead or not?'. This is handled nicely by the character animations though, so there's no need for actually drawing blood on canopies etc.

In Il-2, you can tell when you've hit the pilot, because instantly all the target aircraft's controls are locked in the central position. Maybe a jerky movement of the controls, followed by them moving to a random position, would be more realistic (by which I mean, less immersion-breaking, and therefore making the game more enjoyable to play, by not giving the player the message 'Hey! You're playing a computer game!' which little things like, for example, the controls locking in neutral in Il-2, gives.)

[Blackdog_kt]

I more or less agree with Dozer. I don't mind gore that much but i don't consider it necessary either, so in that sense i'd like to see the development time spent on something that has a more universal appeal on the potential buyers of this sim.

What would be nice to have though is some kind of feedback to let you know when you kill those little pixelated people. Simply having a randomized effect from a list of possible outcomes would be good enough.

Sometimes when flying straight and getting bounced the virtual pilot would remain in the upright position and the controls relatively centered. So, after a while the plane would roll to the side due to the torque effects being uncorrected by the dead pilot, Also, the loss of thrust from the damage and drag from the torn metal of the airplane would give a small amount of altitude loss...as this goes on, we'd get the kind of thing we see in movies with a crippled plane slowly making its way toward the ground in spirals.

Some other times, upon the game registering the pilot as killed it could force a random control input. In these cases the controls would be violently moved to a random direction, with the enemy aircraft jerking violently before losing control.

In other cases, the pilot would simply slump over and slowly nose over towards the ground and so on, you get the idea.

This would be nice visually, especially for people who like making ingame videos, lend some extra variety to the way kills are depicted, provide some kind of feedback to let the attacking player know that he scored a pilot kill and can stop shooting (or, in the case of non-violent jerking of the stick by the "dead" pilot, not provide enough of a feedback...games that keep you guessing are games that don't bore you easily ;) ) and it wouldn't even require the use of gore that would be detrimental to the game's marketing.

If gunner's could be randomly made to just silence their guns or jerk them violently to a random direction as mentioned before, that would round out the package for me. If we really wanted to nit pick, we could have the outcome of pilot kills dependant on plane attitude...a pilot killed during a dive will have more probability of slumping forward on the stick, pressing it down even more, than pulling it back.

Come to think of it, only FPS games show extensive gore and that's because they are usually taking place in an imaginary setting. Sure, there's blood in the ArmA series as well but not the amount of blood you see in games like left 4 dead or metro 2033. The reason is simple, some people get upset when seeing excessive blood effects in what they perceive as the transfer of a real-life scenario to their screens, but they are not affected the same when watching a thousand zombies get burned by a flamethrower, because zombies are not real. It's just human nature, most people have a built-in mechanism to show aversion to and empathize with harm done on whatever looks to us like a living person or animal, while we don't empathize with what can be clearly distinguished to be fake. That's why a game about killing monsters has no trouble selling copies even with over the top gore effects, but games with settings much closer to reality would face a problem if they used similar effects.

In any case, i think that some kind of death animation (that animation doesn't even have to involve the pilot, just the way he loses control of his aircraft) would be nice to have, not because i want to see blood and guts but because i want to know when the other aircraft is out of the fight.

[Splitter]

I more or less agree with Dozer. I don't mind gore that much but i don't consider it necessary either, so in that sense i'd like to see the development time spent on something that has a more universal appeal on the potential buyers of this sim.

What would be nice to have though is some kind of feedback to let you know when you kill those little pixelated people. Simply having a randomized effect from a list of possible outcomes would be good enough.

Sometimes when flying straight and getting bounced the virtual pilot would remain in the upright position and the controls relatively centered. So, after a while the plane would roll to the side due to the torque effects being uncorrected by the dead pilot, Also, the loss of thrust from the damage and drag from the torn metal of the airplane would give a small amount of altitude loss...as this goes on, we'd get the kind of thing we see in movies with a crippled plane slowly making its way toward the ground in spirals.

Some other times, upon the game registering the pilot as killed it could force a random control input. In these cases the controls would be violently moved to a random direction, with the enemy aircraft jerking violently before losing control.

In other cases, the pilot would simply slump over and slowly nose over towards the ground and so on, you get the idea.

This would be nice visually, especially for people who like making ingame videos, lend some extra variety to the way kills are depicted, provide some kind of feedback to let the attacking player know that he scored a pilot kill and can stop shooting (or, in the case of non-violent jerking of the stick by the "dead" pilot, not provide enough of a feedback...games that keep you guessing are games that don't bore you easily ;) ) and it wouldn't even require the use of gore that would be detrimental to the game's marketing.

If gunner's could be randomly made to just silence their guns or jerk them violently to a random direction as mentioned before, that would round out the package for me. If we really wanted to nit pick, we could have the outcome of pilot kills dependant on plane attitude...a pilot killed during a dive will have more probability of slumping forward on the stick, pressing it down even more, than pulling it back.

Come to think of it, only FPS games show extensive gore and that's because they are usually taking place in an imaginary setting. Sure, there's blood in the ArmA series as well but not the amount of blood you see in games like left 4 dead or metro 2033. The reason is simple, some people get upset when seeing excessive blood effects in what they perceive as the transfer of a real-life scenario to their screens, but they are not affected the same when watching a thousand zombies get burned by a flamethrower, because zombies are not real. It's just human nature, most people have a built-in mechanism to show aversion to and empathize with harm done on whatever looks to us like a living person or animal, while we don't empathize with what can be clearly distinguished to be fake. That's why a game about killing monsters has no trouble selling copies even with over the top gore effects, but games with settings much closer to reality would face a problem if they used similar effects.

In any case, i think that some kind of death animation (that animation doesn't even have to involve the pilot, just the way he loses control of his aircraft) would be nice to have, not because i want to see blood and guts but because i want to know when the other aircraft is out of the fight.

I totally agree. I don't mind gore at all, but I really feel no need to see it in a game like this. If the devs included it (and I am fairly sure they won't) they would also have to put in a "no gore" switch.

Plus, "gore" in some other games is a real FPS eater. It can take a fair amount of rendering power to animate the little bits.

Like you, I really just want to know that I got the gunner or pilot. I don't have to see bits of him flying out of the aircraft. It wouldn't bother me, just don't need it.

Of course, I feel a little pang of sympathy every time I score one of the "insta kills" where the aircraft just blows up and you know no chute is going to pop out. Every time it happens, I think back to some pilot interviews I have seen where they get a bit emotional talking about such times in their flying careers. I'm sure those instances brought the reality to them that they weren't just shooting at planes.

Splitter

[Madfish]

To be honest, many newcomers to flight sims get "owned" badly by experienced pilots or well-equipped pilots. Instead of worrying about a little gore and the mental health of the people who see it from 200 meters distance I believe the mental effect of newbies getting owned constantly is much worse. :P
Also I doubt there would be many flight sim veterans who'd get mad about blood effects.

I do agree on the added development effort though and that there would be better things to invest time on. For example my thread about new game modes! :)

[BG-09]

Nice read BG, thank you! Don't forget nevertheless that Oleg expressed very clearly his position on blood and gore, and for very good reasons by the way.

Cheers!

Thanks Insuber! I am proud to be part of this community! I am just trying to help Oleg's team to recreate the Battle Of Britain in greater detail. The devil is in to the detail, as often people said.

Cheers!

[Daniël]

...I didn't want to shoot a German down I wanted to shoot an airplane down.

+1 A pilot isn't dangerous, a pilot + a plane is dangerous.

[Untamo]

Awesome shots as always :)

Question to Oleg / Luthier / anyone else who might have seen the "far away dot" in the screenshots.

I browsed through the development updates and the screenshots for the infamous dot, but didn't catch one. The question follows: How is the "dot"(plane that is so far away that it is presented as one pixel) handled in SoW? Is it still one pixel or does it depend on screen resolution?

I happen to own a 30" screen with 2560x1600 resolution which I view from about 1m away. In IL-2 if I use the native resolution the dot is quite invisible because the relative size of the pixel is so small. I have perfect eyesight, but it is quite impossible to spot the dot. Only when the planes come closer and occupy more than one pixel, then I can see them. I noticed this when flying online with a squadmate who constantly reported contacts, which I of course couldn't spot. Not until I lowered the resolution to 1920x1200 (75% of the native in both dimensions).

So, the point being(pun very much intended), will SoW accommodate large resolution screens so that the "dot" occupies more pixels than just one?

Quite optimistic of me to even think that SoW would run on my machine with that resolution, but one can hope ;) Some day it will :)

And get well soon Oleg!


-Untamo

[philip.ed]

Man, the whole chivalrous debate could go on for eternity and never reach a final conclusion :D

As I had said in my post before, the very fact that I wouldn't enjoy seeing blood/gore in the game would make it have an impact on me if I saw the results of killing an enemy pilot. Of course my PoV would be changed by experiences with seeing friends killed, but it could have the impact on one that a war game should have; war is never fun.

Anyway, back to the update ;)

[Thunderbolt56]

Pictures are nice, but some movement would be a real tease. The detail and subject matter are first rate, but the apparent neglect off AA settings is a concern in these days of high resolution and 2GB GPU's.

Tossing a bone is appreciated, but we'll still starve on bones alone. Put some meat on the bones this week, eh?

;)

[tourmaline]

Thanks Insuber! I am proud to be part of this community! I am just trying to help Oleg's team to recreate the Battle Of Britain in greater detail. The devil is in to the detail, as often people said.

Cheers!

With the political debates going on banning gore/hard core violence games, this isn't much of an issue here, no gore means no problems. And i have no doubt whatsoever that Oleg will go this route...Furthermore, when you shoot down a plane, you not always see what's inside the cockpit...

Some of you have a wild fantasy of details here...:cool:

If a pilot was hit and his head + body would fall over, constrained by the safety belts, that would be more then enough. Like someone in a sleeping postion in a chair.

[Testus01]

+ 1
and please lower leaves size - those cartoon trees (shape & color) are too visible.
(just a proposal...).

[Jumo211]

Luthier; is prop refelction modelled? I ask as when I first saw this used in WoP I thought it was overdone, but after being to an airshow recently I noticed the reflection of the sun on the spinning prop quite vividly ;)

Here it can be also seen at 0:42 , propeller is pretty visible under some angle view with light reflection :shock: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ZAONQVF5I

[tourmaline]

[QUOTE=Jumo211;178110]Here it can be also seen at 0:42 , propeller is pretty visible under some angle view with light reflection :shock: :

Nice footage...Now they also have a reference of how a shooting p-51 should sound...:cool::idea:

[Pierre@]

Look at 1:58: the pilot bails out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/PierreAlfaro/Mistel.jpg

[Rubberchicken]

Here it can be also seen at 0:42 , propeller is pretty visible under some angle view with light reflection :shock: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ZAONQVF5I

Talk about gore, at 2:02 you can see the pilot of the mistel hanging under his plane by his chute and the P51 is still shooting.

[jameson]

I have to say I'm astonished by the belief that the sound on that video is accurate. It was obviously a real aeroplane making the sound, but which one I wouldn't like to say. Gun cameras did not record sound, it was added after the event most likely with whatever was convenient and hanging around.
A cursory watch of numerous episodes of German wartime cinema propaganda clearly show repeat film sequences in engagements that occured at different times and places. Particularly sad are the ones from 1945 supposedly reporting fighting against the Russians that are clearly manufactured to show that the Germans were winning although the Russians were probably shelling Berlin by the time they were shown.
Take it all with a big pinch of salt. Especially now it's possible to fabricate anything in this digital age. See Hollywood, wikipedia, lol!
Regards

[speculum jockey]

Some of you don't seem to get this, so here it is in a 3 step formula that makes everything clear.

1. Blood/Gore = Loss of Available Markets for the Game

2. Loss of Available Markets for the Game = Less Profit for Oleg and Co.

3. Less Profits for Oleg and Co. = Less or possibly NO Future Development on the SOW series.

That means. . . .

Pilot having his blood and brains splattered all over the inside of the cockpit = BAD!!!:(
Pilot Slumping over the controls = Probably ok.:grin:
Bailed-out Pilot gibbing into a million bloody chunks = BAD!!!:(
Bailed-out Pilot going limp in his parachute harness = Probably ok.:grin:

Oleg is not going to add depictions of blood/gore/swastikas/naked women/animal abuse/drug use/etc... To do any of those would cause his title to be rated "adult/mature" in some countries and be banned in others. This is business suicide, something he can not afford given the markets that buy flight sims and the size and resources of his company.

Are there even mods here? How about throwing around a few bans/probations for people who keep going way off topic on things that have been beaten to death already?

(Back on topic)

Now the rear part of the canopy on the JU-88 being ejected from the aircraft (4th pic), would that be as a result of the damage from the Hurricane behind it, or is that part of the bail-out procedure for the gunner? I'm just wondering if MG fire is really going to cause the canopy to fall off like that. That seems to me to be something more akin to cannon or flak damage.

Also, I have to say that the tracers look perfect from what I have seen in person and on video.

Tracers at dusk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GJzi1PZ26A
Tracers in the day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx5aR1Knpb8

I should note that the videos are showing the use of tracers that have a delay before lighting up, so as to not give away the shooter's exact location. I believe tracers used in the air on both sides had no delay.

[philip.ed]

Here it can be also seen at 0:42 , propeller is pretty visible under some angle view with light reflection :shock: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ZAONQVF5I

Great footage mate! :D It'd be awesome to see this in game. :cool:

[C_G]

On the whole blood/gore issue, personally I have no problem with it. In IL2 all it took was a conf.ini change to activate it, and I did. War is War.

I don't think the addition of blood/gore and consequential rating change would have much if any impact on sales. Haven't you seen the 12 yr-olds at EBGames buying games where the whole point appears to be to kill your opponent in close combat in the goriest way possible? Have those games' sales suffered? Are the 12 yr-olds a market segment likely to buy SoW:Bob?

That said, creating blood/gore would take resources away from far more important details and for that reason I'll happily do without.
I'm also happy that we'll never have to have 23-page discussions on how the depiction of blood inaccurately protrays the coagulation time of blood on a hot perspex canopy...

[Splitter]

Great footage mate! :D It'd be awesome to see this in game. :cool:

That is some of the most insane strafing footage I have ever seen! Talk about close. A well aimed rock would have brought down some of those planes. Plus, the danger from secondary explosions was very apparent. Wow.

Splitter

[speculum jockey]

I don't think the addition of blood/gore and consequential rating change would have much if any impact on sales. Haven't you seen the 12 yr-olds at EBGames buying games where the whole point appears to be to kill your opponent in close combat in the goriest way possible? Have those games' sales suffered? Are the 12 yr-olds a market segment likely to buy SoW:Bob?


The problem is that the US, while great for sales of bloody first-person-shooters (biggest market) is a side market for a lot of flight sims, where as Europe/Russia are real markets you don't want to miss out on. If you wanted to make a version with blood you would miss out on Germany, who required cartoonish shooters to change blood to "green slime". Similar laws exist in other countries as well (Australia for example). Another problem would be adding a swastika. This, like blood, is all fine and dandy in the US/Canada, but Germany, France, and Russia have issues with this.

Strange as it sounds, this game is not being made with the American Market in mind, as it is not the cash cow of flight sims like it is with FPS.

Anyways, this thread is for discussing what has been posted by Oleg and Luthier in the updates.

[philip.ed]

There's a lot of great effects footage in that video that Oleg and co could use as reference's for SoW.

[McHilt]

This thread goes WAAAAAAAAAYYY OFF topic... :-(
hope it's getting friday soon.

[lbuchele]

This thread goes WAAAAAAAAAYYY OFF topic... :-(
hope it's getting friday soon.

Off topic?Yes.
But very fun in the latest posts.
Better than the endless discutions about release dates.:cool:

[nearmiss]

You know guys this is just a bunch of Cannoli

Here it is Tuesday and it looks like the thread will have to be locked with half the week to go before another update.

Why don't you guys go back and delete your rodomontade ( junk postings) save me some work deleting them. This way the thread can stay open. There might actually be others that haven't seen the thread who would like to comment.

[kedrednael]

You know guys this is just a bunch of Cannoli

Here it is Tuesday and it looks like the thread will have to be locked with half the week to go before another update.

Why don't you guys go back and delete your rodomontade ( junk postings) save me some work deleting them. This way the thread can stay open. There might actually be others that haven't seen the thread who would like to comment.

These posts are a lot more usefull than the posts on the update with the tree whining, although the trees looked fantastic, even that post didn't get locked. And it is still about the effects from tracers and the propellors and the bailing out what was a subject in the update.

[philip.ed]

The recent discussion about the prop effect and tracers is relevent. The tracer discussion has spurred from the great video Jumo posted which shows some awesome footage which could be useful to Oleg and his team.
but the gore discussion can be seen as junk. Not necesarily because it's spam, but Oleg has stated that there won't be gore in the game, so really the discussion is pointless.

nearmiss; shall I delete any references I made in this particular topic about gore? I feel that the rest is relevent ;)

[BG-09]

If a pilot was hit and his head + body would fall over, constrained by the safety belts, that would be more then enough. Like someone in a sleeping postion in a chair.

Yes, it will be good enough. But mate, think about the realism: what will happens, when Ju-87 drops a 1000 kg bomb over double-decker bus in London, full of passengers /as Oleg is planing/ - every body of the passengers "will sleep in a chair"? It does not fit. Or may be, the passengers will fly "sleeping" a 100 meters away?

Cheers!

[Daniël]

Yes, it will be good enough. But mate, think about the realism: what will happens, when Ju-87 drops a 1000 kg bomb over double-decker bus in London, full of passengers /as Oleg is planing/ - every body of the passengers "will sleep in a chair"? It does not fit. Or may be, the passengers will fly "sleeping" a 100 meters away?

Cheers!

In that case disappearance would be the best option if teared limbs are forbidden. Seeing "sleeping" passengers 100 m away would be a strange sight;)

[major_setback]

You know guys this is just a bunch of Cannoli

Here it is Tuesday and it looks like the thread will have to be locked with half the week to go before another update.

Why don't you guys go back and delete your rodomontade ( junk postings) save me some work deleting them. This way the thread can stay open. There might actually be others that haven't seen the thread who would like to comment.

I don't think members are clear that you are a moderator. I only realised it after the last thread was closed.
I deleted 1 post.

The gore discussion is OT. It would be nice if the thread could be left open, in case Oleg wants to comment.

[winny]

On the subjest of Tracers.. Lots of good footage here (you may well have already seen this)

One thing I never see in any game is the effect where the tracers bounce off something solid and spray around, that would be a nice touch..

More insanely low straffing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-_cVgKSG0

[BG-09]

In that case disappearance would be the best option if teared limbs are forbidden. Seeing "sleeping" passengers 100 m away would be a strange sight;)

Nice solution of the problem.
The best solution is very difficult to be found - we have to confess that SoW-BoB will have to depict real war, with all consequences of that war. WW2 pilots have done very merciless and severe damages to civil population. They were shooting virtually at everything that moves, and than stating that they were doing this for the fatherland. How now we can represent this, and even watch this without any censure?!

[combatdudePL]

Awesome shots as always :)

Question to Oleg / Luthier / anyone else who might have seen the "far away dot" in the screenshots.

I browsed through the development updates and the screenshots for the infamous dot, but didn't catch one. The question follows: How is the "dot"(plane that is so far away that it is presented as one pixel) handled in SoW? Is it still one pixel or does it depend on screen resolution?

I happen to own a 30" screen with 2560x1600 resolution which I view from about 1m away. In IL-2 if I use the native resolution the dot is quite invisible because the relative size of the pixel is so small. I have perfect eyesight, but it is quite impossible to spot the dot. Only when the planes come closer and occupy more than one pixel, then I can see them. I noticed this when flying online with a squadmate who constantly reported contacts, which I of course couldn't spot. Not until I lowered the resolution to 1920x1200 (75% of the native in both dimensions).

So, the point being(pun very much intended), will SoW accommodate large resolution screens so that the "dot" occupies more pixels than just one?

Quite optimistic of me to even think that SoW would run on my machine with that resolution, but one can hope ;) Some day it will :)

And get well soon Oleg!


-Untamo

+1

[kendo65]

...
The question follows: How is the "dot"(plane that is so far away that it is presented as one pixel) handled in SoW? Is it still one pixel or does it depend on screen resolution?

I happen to own a 30" screen with 2560x1600 resolution which I view from about 1m away. In IL-2 if I use the native resolution the dot is quite invisible because the relative size of the pixel is so small. I have perfect eyesight, but it is quite impossible to spot the dot. Only when the planes come closer and occupy more than one pixel, then I can see them. I noticed this when flying online with a squadmate who constantly reported contacts, which I of course couldn't spot. Not until I lowered the resolution to 1920x1200 (75% of the native in both dimensions).

So, the point being(pun very much intended), will SoW accommodate large resolution screens so that the "dot" occupies more pixels than just one?
...


Surely this whole issue reflects one of the 'benefits' of increasing screen resolutions - giving a more realistic experience. That is, real-life pilots equally would find it difficult / next to impossible to spot aircraft at extreme distances.

The extra 'ease' of spotting/rendering the far-away aircraft on lower-res screens is actually less realistic - resulting from the deficiencies of such screens.

Of course, from the perspective of making it easier for a sim pilot to see the enemy early and get a better chance of winning it might be preferable for some people, but I'd argue it is less realistic.

Just my take...

[pupaxx]

increasing the graphic standard and the level of detail, inevitable debate will emerge in near future also in combat flight simulations. How to make socially acceptable the sloughter caused by a fragmentation bomb on a concentration of troops? would you really want such a show is represented in a game? will we debate in a future if the textures of human innards are well represented, questioning on RGB values?
I like flight sims since F15 strike eagle on commodore 64, so as you I'm an 'avid' consumer of combat flight sim, but I prefere such things rest limited in terms of plane vs plane (or tank, truck ....).
In this days I'm practicing in mission building with an historical background. Reading different sources it's astonishing how the life of Mr X overlap Mr Y's live. Relatively at WWII period we know exactly when, were and why my grandfather killed yours relatives and viceversa. Are you sure all this should be belittled in a video game with plenty of detail ?
....Too much bigot? :) ....(in reality I'm the king of splatter-games ehehehe).
just a consideration . Cheers

[Friendly_flyer]

A slumped/prone figure is all I need. Racing past at 300 mph, I doubt I would be able see much more anyway. The only situation where details would be visible is in multi-crew aircrafts like the Blenheim, where you potentially may spend some time looking at a dead mate. Even there, a slumped position would do. With the amount of clothing, a crewman killed by bullets or splinters may not seep blood to any discernable degree.

[speculum jockey]

If a pilot does slump forwards, I wonder if the aircraft will respond accordingly and nose down?

P.s. Oleg, have you rectified the issue with damage overlapping on itself? I noticed in the Stuka shots from earlier that MG damage holes would sometimes overlap Cannon damage in areas it could not occur (usually hovering bullet holes).

[BigC208]

@ Untano, In Rise of Flight they've done it nicely. If you have object ID on you see a small X (looks like a X-wing fighter). This at first annoyed me untill I realised that when you turn object ID off, the X dispeared and you see the vague outline of an aircraft. Looking very convincing. Not just a dot. Hope SoW goes a simmilar way. When you have Object ID activated it does not really matter if you see a dot or an X, it's unrealistic to begin with.

[C_G]

The problem is that the US, while great for sales of bloody first-person-shooters (biggest market) is a side market for a lot of flight sims, where as Europe/Russia are real markets you don't want to miss out on. If you wanted to make a version with blood you would miss out on Germany, who required cartoonish shooters to change blood to "green slime". Similar laws exist in other countries as well (Australia for example). Another problem would be adding a swastika. This, like blood, is all fine and dandy in the US/Canada, but Germany, France, and Russia have issues with this.

Strange as it sounds, this game is not being made with the American Market in mind, as it is not the cash cow of flight sims like it is with FPS.


Thanks for that perspective, SJ, I was not aware of the European rules on depiction of blood/gore.
Anyway, as stated, I'm perfectly happy with Oleg's team not working on what I consider very low on the list of priorities.

[Oldschool61]

A slumped/prone figure is all I need. Racing past at 300 mph, I doubt I would be able see much more anyway. The only situation where details would be visible is in multi-crew aircrafts like the Blenheim, where you potentially may spend some time looking at a dead mate. Even there, a slumped position would do. With the amount of clothing, a crewman killed by bullets or splinters may not seep blood to any discernable degree.

This sim also needs to show your figure when flying as well, who ever heard of being invisable when flying. The biggest flaw with IL2 is when your in the cockpit looking around and low and behold there is no body flying the plane, the cockpit is empty. We should see a torso and legs on the ruddr pedals and a hand holding the flight stick. Any other look and its unreal.

[Chivas]

Personally I don't need a pilot, that will just be in the way of my view of the instruments. Or another set of commands to move an arm or leg blocking the instrument view. The absence of my pilot is certainly not an immersion killer for me. I doubt that the developers will take the extra time at this point to model it, but if they do, I hope its an option you can toggle off.

[proton45]

Nice solution of the problem.
The best solution is very difficult to be found - we have to confess that SoW-BoB will have to depict real war, with all consequences of that war. WW2 pilots have done very merciless and severe damages to civil population. They were shooting virtually at everything that moves, and than stating that they were doing this for the fatherland. How now we can represent this, and even watch this without any censure?!

We should see the physical reaction of the "damage model" on the humans/pilots/animals, but we should be spared the "graphic carnage"...

TO BE MORE CLEAR ON MY OPINION...body's should be thrown about (like "rag dolls") by the shock wave, but we should not see blood, or dismemberment. Bullets and crashes and other aspects of the damage model that are included in the new game should have a realistic impact on the "human analog" but ONLY in a "rag doll" effect...

What do you kind folks think?

p.s. Of course these options should be selectable... ;)


This sim also needs to show your figure when flying as well, who ever heard of being invisable when flying. The biggest flaw with IL2 is when your in the cockpit looking around and low and behold there is no body flying the plane, the cockpit is empty. We should see a torso and legs on the ruddr pedals and a hand holding the flight stick. Any other look and its unreal.

I have often imagined a "pilots reflection" in the glass or chrome or mirrors....

[LukeFF]

You know guys this is just a bunch of Cannoli

Here it is Tuesday and it looks like the thread will have to be locked with half the week to go before another update.

Why don't you guys go back and delete your rodomontade ( junk postings) save me some work deleting them. This way the thread can stay open. There might actually be others that haven't seen the thread who would like to comment.

Apparently some here missed this post.

[Tree_UK]

Apparently some here missed this post.

Its only one or two Mods that want us to stay on topic, which i can understand, but I really dont think Oleg and Luthier give a rats ass, they only answer the odd post, the rest mostly get overlooked.

[proton45]

Apparently some here missed this post.

I didn't think that my comments where completely "OT"...as Luthier himself had commented on "the pilots" and how their damage model might respond to physical "contact".

My thought was that the moderators where (for the most part) responding to the, near constant, bickering that seems to litter this forum...

[Richie]

What's this? Dec 31 but doesn't really look impressive.




http://www.ign.com/_views/ign/ign_tinc_reviewed_games.ftl?&publisher=25075&releaseStartDate=20100829&releaseEndDate=21100805&sort=releaseDate&order=asc&sortOrders=xax&currentGenre=All&currentTimeSpan=Any%20Time&pageType=all&indexType=upcoming&timeFilter=anytime&location=ign&locale=us&offset=50

[AndyJWest]

What's this? Dec 31 but doesn't really look impressive.




http://www.ign.com/_views/ign/ign_tinc_reviewed_games.ftl?&publisher=25075&releaseStartDate=20100829&releaseEndDate=21100805&sort=releaseDate&order=asc&sortOrders=xax&currentGenre=All&currentTimeSpan=Any%20Time&pageType=all&indexType=upcoming&timeFilter=anytime&location=ign&locale=us&offset=50

What's that? Nothing really. A link to a website that seems to have the release date as either December 2010, or April 2008, depending where you look. Totally meaningless, without further information.

[Buglord]

Thanks for the update. :)

[BG-09]

We should see the physical reaction of the "damage model" on the humans/pilots/animals, but we should be spared the "graphic carnage"...

TO BE MORE CLEAR ON MY OPINION...body's should be thrown about (like "rag dolls") by the shock wave, but we should not see blood, or dismemberment. Bullets and crashes and other aspects of the damage model that are included in the new game should have a realistic impact on the "human analog" but ONLY in a "rag doll" effect...

What do you kind folks think?

p.s. Of course these options should be selectable... ;)




I have often imagined a "pilots reflection" in the glass or chrome or mirrors....

Very wise variant! Rag doll! Perfect. No blood. Perfect solution!

[Tree_UK]

TO BE MORE CLEAR ON MY OPINION...body's should be thrown about (like "rag dolls") by the shock wave, but we should not see blood, or dismemberment. Bullets and crashes and other aspects of the damage model that are included in the new game should have a realistic impact on the "human analog" but ONLY in a "rag doll" effect...

What do you kind folks think?

p.s. Of course these options should be selectable... ;)


I like that idea, much better than nothing at all, it would still be nice to have enable/disable full gore in config though.

[philip.ed]

Sorry

[tourmaline]

Yes, it will be good enough. But mate, think about the realism: what will happens, when Ju-87 drops a 1000 kg bomb over double-decker bus in London, full of passengers /as Oleg is planing/ - every body of the passengers "will sleep in a chair"? It does not fit. Or may be, the passengers will fly "sleeping" a 100 meters away?

Cheers!

Mate, i was talking about shot pilots trapped in their safety belts. NOT about busses full of people.:cool:

[tourmaline]

I have to say I'm astonished by the belief that the sound on that video is accurate. It was obviously a real aeroplane making the sound, but which one I wouldn't like to say. Gun cameras did not record sound, it was added after the event most likely with whatever was convenient and hanging around.
A cursory watch of numerous episodes of German wartime cinema propaganda clearly show repeat film sequences in engagements that occured at different times and places. Particularly sad are the ones from 1945 supposedly reporting fighting against the Russians that are clearly manufactured to show that the Germans were winning although the Russians were probably shelling Berlin by the time they were shown.
Take it all with a big pinch of salt. Especially now it's possible to fabricate anything in this digital age. See Hollywood, wikipedia, lol!
Regards

It still sounds better then any other videogame sound.:cool:

[zapatista]

Oleg & Co,

thx for the updates

excellent looking screenshot of the bomber crew looking out the window :)

one concern: the hurricane pilot still looks way to small, and i cant see the feet of the german pilot in the bomber reaching the rudder pedal ? i suspect the "small pilot" problem still hasnt been resolved ? (not a big deal, fix it after release if it takes to much time now)

[Oldschool61]

Personally I don't need a pilot, that will just be in the way of my view of the instruments. .


Do you sit on your instruments??Last I checked most guages are in front of the pilot not under the seat. Next time your driving look down and see if your seat is empty, I'll bet you see something besides your empty seat.
And looking down in the pit and NOT seeing a torso and legs on rudder pedals does detract from immersion a bit. How is that going to prevent you from reading gauges? Most of the stuff you need to see is high enough above the flight stick that its not an issue. If this sim is going to be realistic in first person mode you need to see your body in pit. Anything less is unrealistic. Hell most first person shooters do this.

[IceFire]

It still sounds better then any other videogame sound.:cool:

Yes and no... it has a richness to it yes but the sounds are not synchronized to events and they don't have proper characteristics when it comes to distance from the observer. They were added on top for appeal purposes only.

In some ways IL-2's sound is incredible... it does a lot of things right dynamically on the right sound setup. It's just that the limited range of sounds gives everything a more generic feel.

[zapatista]

although I never got an apology from Zapatista did I...:-P

lol, for somebody like you who is a self confessed vandal and thief of oleg's private property, it is unsurprising you have such a deluded view of the world :)

[zapatista]

We should see the physical reaction of the "damage model" on the humans/pilots/animals, but we should be spared the "graphic carnage"...

TO BE MORE CLEAR ON MY OPINION...body's should be thrown about (like "rag dolls") by the shock wave, but we should not see blood, or dismemberment. Bullets and crashes and other aspects of the damage model that are included in the new game should have a realistic impact on the "human analog" but ONLY in a "rag doll" effect...

What do you kind folks think?

sounds like a fair compromise

but its all speculation really, its fairly safe to assume oleg has already decided on how to represent killed/wounded crew and pilots (since we have such detailed modeling of humans now, and articulated movements etc). i suspect it will be something like figures slumping or collapsing, without much blood or gore

[philip.ed]

Excuse me

[Skarphol]

Do you sit on your instruments??Last I checked most guages are in front of the pilot not under the seat..

You're right, but the arms tend to block out quite a few instruments.

Skarphol

[Oldschool61]

You're right, but the arms tend to block out quite a few instruments.

Skarphol

Realistically the only gauges you need to see are airspeed, altitude, manifold pressure and maybe one or 2 more and if im not mistaken all those are pretty much high enough so as to not be blocked by arms or legs. Fuel gauge is usually not necessary as most flights dont last long enough to worry about fuel.

[Tree_UK]

Of which I am neither, mate, as I have never broken into any of Oleg's games/property etc. I merely edited files of an existing mod and added a texture. Nothing was broken and I am no vandal ;) Yet another case where you're wrong. This is quite a habit you are keeping to.
Check last-week's discussion. You said I was wrong and, basically, dumb yet Tree supplied a quote from Oleg that proved everything you said was total shit. I am sorry to turn this topic off topic, but I will not have you rip apart my posts when you are wrong. I can hold my hands up to Oleg after I have supplied him with info for SoW and say that I have used the mods, but to this he has no response as he doesn't wish to venture into those grounds. So please don't try and be Oleg's personal arse-licker and pretend you know what he thinks and feels. You know jack shit and until you can tell me that you have been working on SoW and helping Oleg, all you are is someone who plays the game and posts on the forums. That is it. So don't try and speak for Oleg and make me seem like some kind of criminal. If I had broken the code for Il-2 then yes, I would be a criminal, but I won't try and hide the fact that I am using MODS that are illegal as the enjoyment of them is such that it has made Oleg make SoW partly moddable because of the enjoyment it has brought to many in the community.
I will not turn this into another MODS discussion, of which is banned here, but neither will I let you call me names that are wrong.
You are deluded and are so stuck up your own arse that that lump in your throat is your goddamn head. If I knew I was wrong, I would apologise to someone for having a go at them before-hand, but the fact that you didn't apologise is beyond belief.

+1, couldn't of put it better myself, although you did miss the 'no offence of course' at the end. :grin:

[BigC208]

When you have your arms, legs visible they better be moving realistically. If not just leave em out all together. Looking down and seeing a stiff, non moving body is more of an immersion killer than having nothing at all. Can you imagine watching your hands moving to the panel to realign the DG with the magnetic compass. Reaching up to the canopy release latch before bailing out with a first person view of your arms and legs flopping in the wind? Have that body there but make it work! Probably not going to happen anytime soon but it would be nice.

[burlaff]

A 1st person view of bailing out would certainly add to the emmersion. Also, I think it would be good if you could see 'yourself' in the cockpit and be 'thrown around' by the g-forces - as long as it didn't get in the way of course...

[Jumo211]

@ philip.ed

+1 :)

[furbs]

Of which I am neither, mate, as I have never broken into any of Oleg's games/property etc. I merely edited files of an existing mod and added a texture. Nothing was broken and I am no vandal ;) Yet another case where you're wrong. This is quite a habit you are keeping to.
Check last-week's discussion. You said I was wrong and, basically, dumb yet Tree supplied a quote from Oleg that proved everything you said was total shit. I am sorry to turn this topic off topic, but I will not have you rip apart my posts when you are wrong. I can hold my hands up to Oleg after I have supplied him with info for SoW and say that I have used the mods, but to this he has no response as he doesn't wish to venture into those grounds. So please don't try and be Oleg's personal arse-licker and pretend you know what he thinks and feels. You know jack shit and until you can tell me that you have been working on SoW and helping Oleg, all you are is someone who plays the game and posts on the forums. That is it. So don't try and speak for Oleg and make me seem like some kind of criminal. If I had broken the code for Il-2 then yes, I would be a criminal, but I won't try and hide the fact that I am using MODS that are illegal as the enjoyment of them is such that it has made Oleg make SoW partly moddable because of the enjoyment it has brought to many in the community.
I will not turn this into another MODS discussion, of which is banned here, but neither will I let you call me names that are wrong.
You are deluded and are so stuck up your own arse that that lump in your throat is your goddamn head. If I knew I was wrong, I would apologise to someone for having a go at them before-hand, but the fact that you didn't apologise is beyond belief.

+1

[Chivas]

Do you sit on your instruments??Last I checked most guages are in front of the pilot not under the seat. Next time your driving look down and see if your seat is empty, I'll bet you see something besides your empty seat.
And looking down in the pit and NOT seeing a torso and legs on rudder pedals does detract from immersion a bit. How is that going to prevent you from reading gauges? Most of the stuff you need to see is high enough above the flight stick that its not an issue. If this sim is going to be realistic in first person mode you need to see your body in pit. Anything less is unrealistic. Hell most first person shooters do this.

"Do you sit on your instruments?"

A question like that doesn't deserve an answer. But it does prove you don't know what your talking about.

[Insuber]

I humbly suggest the moderators to moderate this thread.

[LukeFF]

Is it Friday yet? We need a new reason for people to gripe and complain and take threads off-topic.

[AndyJWest]

Fuel gauge is usually not necessary as most flights dont last long enough to worry about fuel.
Speak for yourself. In both offline campaigns and online coops, fuel managment can be critical. And what if you get hit in a fuel tank. How else will you know how much you are leaking.

[SlipBall]

zapatista calls them like he sees them...he has a good head on his shoulders, and don't ever expect him to hold his punches:grin:

[fireflyerz]

Yup...keep smokin that one boy...:rolleyes:

[Richie]

A 1st person view of bailing out would certainly add to the emmersion. Also, I think it would be good if you could see 'yourself' in the cockpit and be 'thrown around' by the g-forces - as long as it didn't get in the way of course...

I think the bailing out thing would be a fantastic idea. Can we all see that fighter right behind us as we're trying to hit the silk? I know I can :)

[philip.ed]

Yup...keep smokin that one boy...:rolleyes:


:grin: LOL :cool:

[McHilt]

Of which I am neither, mate, as I have never broken into any of Oleg's games/property etc. I merely edited files of an existing mod and added a texture. Nothing was broken and I am no vandal ;) Yet another case where you're wrong. This is quite a habit you are keeping to.
Check last-week's discussion. You said I was wrong and, basically, dumb yet Tree supplied a quote from Oleg that proved everything you said was total shit. I am sorry to turn this topic off topic, but I will not have you rip apart my posts when you are wrong. I can hold my hands up to Oleg after I have supplied him with info for SoW and say that I have used the mods, but to this he has no response as he doesn't wish to venture into those grounds. So please don't try and be Oleg's personal arse-licker and pretend you know what he thinks and feels. You know jack shit and until you can tell me that you have been working on SoW and helping Oleg, all you are is someone who plays the game and posts on the forums. That is it. So don't try and speak for Oleg and make me seem like some kind of criminal. If I had broken the code for Il-2 then yes, I would be a criminal, but I won't try and hide the fact that I am using MODS that are illegal as the enjoyment of them is such that it has made Oleg make SoW partly moddable because of the enjoyment it has brought to many in the community.
I will not turn this into another MODS discussion, of which is banned here, but neither will I let you call me names that are wrong.
You are deluded and are so stuck up your own arse that that lump in your throat is your goddamn head. If I knew I was wrong, I would apologise to someone for having a go at them before-hand, but the fact that you didn't apologise is beyond belief.

5-star-reply, well put!

and now... pass on to the next thread, hope we'll get less gore obsessed talk this time btw...:mrgreen:

[Baron]

:grin: LOL :cool:


Patting eachother on the back in every other post really doesnt get u points on the credometer.

Grow up.

How about taking nonecentiall member bashing to PM instead of cluttering a update treadh with this unbelivebly unintresting drivel.

[philip.ed]

Sorry

[NNFFL=Clovis=]

How can you expect Oleg or Luthier to answer some of the very interesting questions asked with all the c... you are throwing at each other polluting this thread?

Hope it will not discourage Oleg of posting new updates as well.

[philip.ed]

I agree. But I think they have too much work to do to answer all our questions. If we look over recent updates, clearly the only questions that get answered are ones that are interesting to the team.
Either way, we should count ourselves lucky to get updates.

And I will apologise again for having my rant; it is intolerable. But clearly I spoke on behalf of a few members on the forum.

Anyway; this is all virtual so non-one was hurt ;)

And just to say that I edited all my posts before to apologise.

[McHilt]

I'd love to know this too but also will smoke in general be 3d and react when flown through?

I still think this was an interesting question on page 15 in reaction on that tracersmoke

[Blackdog_kt]

Well, back on topic somewhat...

Do you sit on your instruments??Last I checked most guages are in front of the pilot not under the seat. Next time your driving look down and see if your seat is empty, I'll bet you see something besides your empty seat.
And looking down in the pit and NOT seeing a torso and legs on rudder pedals does detract from immersion a bit. How is that going to prevent you from reading gauges? Most of the stuff you need to see is high enough above the flight stick that its not an issue. If this sim is going to be realistic in first person mode you need to see your body in pit. Anything less is unrealistic. Hell most first person shooters do this.

Well, in many planes cockpits are cramped and in others some instruments are tucked away in some funny places, for example fuel gauges in P-51s. While i agree that seeing our own virtual body would add to immersion somewhat, there are practical problems as well. I also agree that having a pilot body that is totally still is worse than having none at all.

For example, bear in mind that due to the increased amount of realism there needs to be an increased amount of controls as well. Since most people have a HOTAS and keyboard at best and not custom-made simpits, the decision was made to allow the use of clickable cockpit switches in order to cut down on the amount of keyboard/button controls needed to operate the aircraft. A virtual pilot body in the cockpit would seriously hinder the use of that, forcing you to bind, memorize and use large numbers of keyboard shortcuts for things that are probably only used sparingly throughout the mission (so they don't have to be bound directly to keyboard/HOTAS), but still need to be operated.

Case in point, things like bomb selection/release panels and side consoles/electric controls panels. For example, in a P47 half of the electric controls switches would be obscured by the pilot's left leg if he was modelled in the cockpit. You need those switches to actually start the plane up but won't need them again until you land and shut everything down, so the obvious solution would be to not bind them to keyboard or stick buttons but operate them with the mouse once at the start and once before the end of the mission. If there was a pilot modelled in the cockpit, the view would be blocked and you'd have to bind them to keys/buttons.

I wouldn't mind seeing a pilot, but if he was interfering with controls there should be an on/off toggle switch or transparency option when hovering the cursor over him.

[SaQSoN]

I am using MODS that are illegal as the enjoyment of them is such that it has made Oleg make SoW partly moddable because of the enjoyment it has brought to many in the community.

Just on a side note: Decision to make SoW open-ended has absolutely nothing to do with IL-2 mods, as it was adopted as early, as in mid-2003, when the very first concept of SoW evolved and by then there was no sign of any so called mods.

[speculum jockey]

I still think this was an interesting question on page 15

I think it's been said, and you can see from pics that it is 3D. I also seem to remember that it will not react to being flown through it as that would require a heck of a lot of resources and further work.

[philip.ed]

Just on a side note: Decision to make SoW open-ended has absolutely nothing to do with IL-2 mods, as it was adopted as early, as in mid-2003, when the very first concept of SoW evolved and by then there was no sign of any so called mods.

Really? OK, that could make sense. of course, there is no real evidence to prove either of us right, but I could go with that ;)

[McHilt]

I think it's been said, and you can see from pics that it is 3D. I also seem to remember that it will not react to being flown through it as that would require a heck of a lot of resources and further work.

Ah, ok... thx Jockey, I must have missed it somehow.:cool:

[philip.ed]

Hmm, I raised the question of 3D smoke effects in the first place, because the fuel-leak effect looked a bit 2D in the pictures. It is so hard to get a feel of the sims movement though from the pictures.