difference between the spitVb and the spitLF V??

[David198502]

hey guys!!
i was wondering if anybody can tell me what the difference is between the spitmkVB released in 1941 and the spit LF V released in 1942!?

for me i can't see any difference in its visible parts. so is there a difference in the engine???cause it seems that the LF doesnt overheat that fast as the Vb. i would appreciate any answer from you experts.thx

[swiss]

LF= Low Fighter
HF= High Fighter
CW= Clipped Wing

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9453/spit.png

Ilcompare is a nice and very important tool... ;)

[IceFire]

Knowing your Spitfire can be really handy. As swiss has pointed out with the IL2 Compare tool... the LF versions of Spitfires are generally meant for lower attitudes.

With the Mark V this means that the aircraft is best between 0 and 3000 meters. Above that and performance seriously declines, whereas the F.Vb is constantly increasing it's maximum top speed up to around 6000 meters. So depending on your application you will want to choose the appropriate fighter.

With the IX version things get more complicated.

The LF.IX versions are "lower altitude", however, the history is a bit different. With the LF.IX the supercharger settings were changed so as to make the IX faster than the captured FW190A-4 that the RAF had at all altitudes. The F.IX Spitfire is only faster at some altitudes and not others. We don't have a F.IX right now so all Spitfire IX's are LF models....

Except the HF.IXe which I see a lot of online. The HF.IXe is not faster than the LF model until somewhere around 8000 meters. But yet I see tons of HF models flying on servers at altitudes of 500 meters and never climbing above 2000 meters.

So now you have a leg up :D

[illegalBeagle]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the original question has been answered. My understanding is that the games Spit Mk Vb without the LF or HF suffix is supposed to represent a slower Spit exported to USSR using less powerful Russian fuel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here please.

[David603]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the original question has been answered. My understanding is that the games Spit Mk Vb without the LF or HF suffix is supposed to represent a slower Spit exported to USSR using less powerful Russian fuel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here please.
Its just the regular F Mk Vb. F stands for fighter, but the F prefix isn't normally used.

[IceFire]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the original question has been answered. My understanding is that the games Spit Mk Vb without the LF or HF suffix is supposed to represent a slower Spit exported to USSR using less powerful Russian fuel. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here please.

Swiss answered it... simply the F is the medium altitude (regular) model while the LF models are optimized for low altitude flight and the HF model is for high altitude.

With the Mark Vb it's a bit more confusing because the modeling also represents different years. So ... we have different engines with different supercharger settings and then you throw in the clipped wing versions too (which have an overall performance impact).

The Vb has RAF level performance for 1941 (actually I believe it's a bit better than it should be in the climb). The VVS didn't receive lower performing models... although by the time they got them and employed them performance may have been lower due to lower quality field conditions (fuel, oil, dusty conditions, etc.). The Spitfire was a bit more sensitive than some of the Russian birds. This doesn't seem to be represented in the game.

So to recap: The regular Vb has higher performance at higher altitude while the LF.Vb has higher performance at lower altitude and drastically reduced performance at higher altitude.

Spitfires are confusing because there are many modifications made to them over the time that they were used and not all of these are represented by a model number change. In comparison to the Bf109 we have the G series with G-1 through G-14 each representing some sort of significant change. With the Spitfire they would probably have been all under one Mark number with very little to identify. The RAF was slow to even classify the modified aircraft (some publications and log books refer to the Mark IX-B which is really a Mark LF.IX :)).

Confusing :D

[illegalBeagle]

Fuel quality is the issue I mean, not derated engines. My understanding is the first Spit we got for this game, the MkVb, was intended for Eastern front maps in USSR service not Western theater. Lower quality Russian fuel resulted in lower performance, and this is modeled somewhat. For years the game was primarily Eastern front. This is from years ago and my memory is fuzzy.

[David198502]

hey thx to all of you guys.but now im curious.swiss where do i get this il2compare tool???

[Kwiatek]

Octan fuel is very important for engine performance. British used 100 octan fuel before BoB time in their Merlin III engines which allowed to got more boost preassure - 12 lbs instead 6 1/2 lbs ( for 87 octan fuel). These significantly improved low alt performacne (below FTH) of Spitfire MK 1 and Hurricane Mk1. ( I wonder if it would be correctly moddeled in Oleg BoB?).

So Merlin III engine ( Spit MK1 and Hurricane MK1) with 100 octan fuel changed boost preassure for engine ----> 9 lbs - Max. for climbing (normal rating)(1 hr. limit)
and 12 lbs - Max. for all-out level in special emergency ( climb and combat 5 min limit).

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-I-rae-12lbs.jpg

Spitfire MK V initialy appeard with Merlin 45 engine. Normal rating was + 9 lbs ( 1 hour). The question is if it was allowed from the begining emergency rating +12 lbs? I got manual for Spifire MK II with Merlin XII engine and there were +9 lbs - normal rating and +12 lbs -emergency rating. I got also manual for Spifire MK VA-B-C with MErlin 45,45M,45, 50,50M,55,55M engines. There is ratinging for engines:
+12 - take off,
+9 - normal ( max climbing 1 hr limit),
+16/+18 - emergency combat 5 min limit ( +18 is for M engines - low alt)

These manual is rather late version for all type of Spitfire MK V and engines. I dont have early manual only for Spitfire MK VA and VB with Merlin 45.
Still i think that Merlin 45 like any other Merlins with 100 octan fuel ( like MerlinIII, Merlin XII, Merlin XX or late Merlins 61,66, 70) has both normal rating ( +9) and emergency rating ( +12). Later in 1942 year emergency rating for Merlin 45 was rised for +16 lbs and for Merlin 45M ( crop supercharger - LF version) for +18 lbs rating. Shortly speaking Merlin 45 was standart Spit MKV engine, Merlin 46 was for higher alt supercharger settings and engines with "M" like Merlin 45M or 50M was with cropped supercharger for low alts.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-V-raechart.jpg

If we speak about VVS Spitfires and any other lend lease western planes like Hurricanes, P-40, P-39 and others these all planes need for full performance 100 octan fuel. Probably Russian used only 87 octan fuel which casue derated performacne of these planes and lower boost preassures. Thats why Russian opionion about such planes wasnt positive. Some Russian planes have similar performacne with lower octan fuel.

[swiss]

hey thx to all of you guys.but now im curious.swiss where do i get this il2compare tool???

http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2233.0;attach=956

[David198502]

thank you very much swiss!!!!

[swiss]

no problem.

Are you already registered on sturmovik.de?

[David198502]

ähm yes why???

[David198502]

hey swiss i downloaded the il2compare tool, but how can i open this file???do i have to put it in some folder of ultrapack or something???

[swiss]

hey swiss i downloaded the il2compare tool, but how can i open this file???do i have to put it in some folder of ultrapack or something???

Nope, just put all of the files in a new folder.
You can't run it directly from the zip file.


ähm yes why???

Just asking.
If any further problems should arise, let's meet on TS.

[David198502]

ok but there is only one file called:UP2.01_Compare.7z.

[swiss]

- Create new folder, say on Desktop.

- Put folder "UP2.01_Compare" in there

- run "il2c"

[David198502]

ok but this is no folder i downloaded, but only a file which im not able to open

[swiss]

you dont have winzip?

[David198502]

ah that was the problem. cause normally i'm able to unzip files, but i didn't have winzip installed. now i downloaded the testversion and it works!!!yehaa!
thank you very much swiss. i really appreciate your help and your patience.thx

[David198502]

hey swiss!!!il2 compare works fine!but can you explain me the 4 types of diagrams?
MAX TAS by altitude,max ROC by altitude,ROC by constant TAS and turn time by speed.
as i understand it, max tas by altitude shows the maximum speed in a certain altitude, turn time by speed shows the time the plane needs to fly a 360degree turn with a certain speed, and roc at constant tas shows the altitude the plane gains with a certain speed in a certain time.please correct me if i misunderstood something. and i dont know what the max roc by altitude-diagram shows.answers would be appreciated!!

[swiss]

all correct.
ROC by alt basically shows you how your lift changes by altitude.
Take a 109E4 vs a Hurri.
You will notice you can:
- outspeed the hurri up to 6000m
- outclimb the hurri up to 4500m
- you cannot outturn the hurri

Above those altitudes the hurri will catch you.

Now take your time and think about possible maneuvers.

[Igo kyu]

Above those altitudes the hurri will catch you.
That may be what happens in game, but it ain't right.

[swiss]

That may be what happens in game, but it ain't right.

pls go find the FM complaint thread, thx.

[David198502]

thank you very much swiss!!!you are really helpful.by the way, on which servers do you play usually???i think i have never seen you online.my codename in game is davidred

[JtD]

That may be what happens in game, but it ain't right.

Please tell more.

[Igo kyu]

Please tell more.
"Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" Mike Spick:

109E-3 max speed 354 mph, service ceiling 36,091 ft, rate of climb 3,282 ft/min.

Hurricane 1 max speed 316 mph, service ceiling 33,2001 ft, rate of climb 2,300 ft/min.

The 109 was known to be superlative at higher altitude, a captured example wasn't tested all the way up due to lack of compatible oxygen equipment so this wasn't known early in the war.

The Hurricane turned tighter I believe.

[swiss]

which servers do you play usually

Spitvs109 (mod)
QueenslandII
Kampfverband 13
Skies of Valor

sometimes:

Warclouds
Skies of Fire
RCAFFB: I got banned there, dont know why - well, I think s.o. accused me of kill stealing, which is not true btw.


, a captured example wasn't tested all the way up due to lack of compatible oxygen equipment

I find this hard to believe...

[koivis]

The comparison posted by swiss works only if you compare Bf 109E-4/B against Hurricane Mk II. However, Hurricane Mk I (ingame version which is worse than in BoB) will not catch the normal fighter E-4 by running or climbing in ANY altitude. Anyway, at sea level even the slowest Bf 109 is ~45 km/h faster than the fastest Hurricane.

[Igo kyu]

I find this hard to believe...
"The Narrow Margin" Wood and Dempster, page 148:

In the trials and handling of the Me 109 one vital aspect of performance testing was omitted, general handling and speed above 20,000 feet. ... In addition oxygen was not available for the 109 on test which limited the ceiling at which the pilot could operate.

[David198502]

yes i have the same problem with RCAFFB. got banned there several times after some minutes of playing without reason.
and on the kampfverband13 server i tried many times to connect, but there occured the problem that said that the connection to the remote host is lost. i dont know exactly what that means, but i think its because of my bad internet connection.but hope to fly with you some time swiss.

[Kudlius]

What is TAS in these carts?

[swiss]

"The Narrow Margin" Wood and Dempster, page 148:

Still sounds weird. Why not just install a British system?
Were they scared of Kraut technology? ;)

[JtD]

"Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" Mike Spick:

109E-3 max speed 354 mph, service ceiling 36,091 ft, rate of climb 3,282 ft/min.

Hurricane 1 max speed 316 mph, service ceiling 33,2001 ft, rate of climb 2,300 ft/min.

The 109 was known to be superlative at higher altitude, a captured example wasn't tested all the way up due to lack of compatible oxygen equipment so this wasn't known early in the war.

The Hurricane turned tighter I believe.

Thanks, but, as has been stated, Swiss's statement seems to have used the Hurricane Mk.II as reference. This one had a ceiling of 38000+ft and was in some aspects superior to the 109E at altitude.