1 significant historic and 3 detail errors with Ju88 model [Archive]

Flying Pencil

08-01-2010, 07:59 PM

S! Oleg and 1C

I have been looking closely at the screen shots of the Ju88, and best as I can tell (detail images needed) I found 2 or 3 minor errors, and 1 outstanding historical one.
http://download.softclub.ru/pub/il2pict/Ju-88A-1_15.jpg

In front on the tear drop shaped blister on the upper fuselage side just behind the cockpit is special door that is operated during combat. The blister itself exists for clearance of the internal bomb racks.

Images of that door in operation are extremely rare because in the vast majority of photos one does not see that part of the aircraft, or are not taken during direct of combat (usually on the way to or from).

With all the research your team has done, someone may know about it, but I for one was privileged to help restore the only relatively complete 88A-1 in the world, and it was there I discovered its purpose and operation.

It should not effect game pay where this detail included or not, but seeing your commitment to incredible models I think you would be interested in this detail.
Please contact me and discuss this and other findings.

I also spent time working on a He-111P and Ju-52.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7663/in88cockpitwm6.jpg

Cheers!

Blackdog_kt

08-03-2010, 12:14 AM

Interesting...do you mean there's a door behind the rear gunner's station on the upper fuselage?

The only thing i can think off for having one would be to rotate the gun blister so that the gun lies near to the fuselage, open the door and slide the gun into the compartment to reduce drag (something like the "retracting" guns on the SM.79). Far fetched i know, but i couldn't resist taking a wild guess :grin:

Edit: Since you mention the blister is to provide clearance for the bomb racks, i came up with another idea. Supposing the bombs are not armed during the start of the mission, then a crew member would have to arm them in flight like in the "memphis belle" movie, where they take the locking pins off the bombs in the B-17 bomb bay. Since the Ju-88 is a lot smaller and maybe doesn't have enough internal fuselage space for a crewman to get around on a standing or semi-upright position, could it be that they opened the top of the fuselage so that he could go into the bomb bay and arm the bombs?

Zorin

08-03-2010, 01:08 AM

I think I can help with clearing this up. What Frantisek is most likely referring to are the two small hatches on both sides of the upper fuselage marked in the screens below.

These control the air pressure in the forward bomb bay. Though I couldn't find any further information in the entire handbook for the A-1, nor in the bombing manual.

marked position on model and original.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/th_Unbenannt-3.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/?action=view&current=Unbenannt-3.jpg)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/th_Unbenannt_2.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/?action=view&current=Unbenannt_2.jpg)

As found in the handbook.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/th_Unbenannt_3.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/?action=view&current=Unbenannt_3.jpg)

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/th_Unbenannt_4.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb107/ZorinW/?action=view&current=Unbenannt_4.jpg)

KG26_Alpha

08-03-2010, 11:25 AM

Hi Frantishek

Nice picture of the Ju88 and yourself :)

Zorins correct.

Air pressure flaps and bomb blisters are present in the Ju88 A1 SOW model.

They are just hard to see from the pic angle and cammo.

If they will be actually operational in the 3D model I doubt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-122-26%2C_Flugzeuge_Junkers_Ju_88%2C_Montage.jpg/441px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-122-26%2C_Flugzeuge_Junkers_Ju_88%2C_Montage.jpg

Tbag

08-05-2010, 06:02 PM

Any reply yet, Frantishek?

Flying Pencil

08-07-2010, 08:48 PM

Back, that is I am on work assignment for week away from home, limited computer access, and all that.

Zorin and KG26_Alpha are correct!
Yes, the doors are for air flow in the bomb bay, and I have only found ONE photo that shows them open!

While restoring the Ju88A-1 I found them and was blown away (pun??) by their existence, however it is also a bit of mystery since so little is published by them, especially since they existed on many models of 88, including the 188 and fighter versions.

I took photos of them, and operated them, taking more photos.

I hoped to get communications from 1C directly on this detail (whether they choose to put it in or not is up to them).

Blackdog_kt, that's some imagination, but wrong on both (I know all the details on the gun positions, who made them, and when first used, etc).

As to bombs, the He-111p in Norway has much of the system in place, and there are electrical lines to the bombs, but honestly I am not sure if they are electrically armed or release a mechanical device that is used to arm the bombs.

S!

Blackdog_kt

08-08-2010, 10:18 AM

Flying Pencil

08-09-2010, 04:34 PM

Well, it never hurts to try i guess (or try to guess in this case). I initially thought that you were referring to a door on the top of the fuselage right behind the gunner's station and not the blisters to the sides, so that's all i could come up with. Of course there's no visible outline for a top fuselage door because it doesn't exist, but then again i totally missed the blisters that do in fact exist, so my thoughts started running a bit wild on the whole matter :grin:

LOL

So, if the pressure regulating blisters were the significant historic feature, what are the 3 detail errors mentioned in the title?
Interesting information in any case, keep it coming. I know i'm not the only one who's extra-curious to see a photo of those blisters in operation ;)

Its not the blisters, but the door in front of them.

The other 3 detail errors are in the cockpit, but I am not positive until I can see close up shots of the cockpit area. Mainly to do with the gun stations.

I know I am sounding presumptuous, but I want to know Oleg and Company saw what I want to show, and know I can help them.
They are very busy, and could simply miss random bits of useful data.

S!

Rodolphe

08-09-2010, 06:57 PM

...

If you need some pictures... ;)

Luftdruckausgleich für vorderen Bombenraum :

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1a.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1p.jpg

Junkers JU-88 A-4, Norsk Luftfartsmuseum.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1b.jpg

B-Stand 1 MG15 in LLK mit 1275 Schuss:

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1c.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1d.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1e.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1f.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1g.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1i.jpg

A-Stand 1 MG 15 in Lagerkugel LgK 100 mit 375 Schuss :

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1h.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1j.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1k.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1m.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1n.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1o.jpg

C-Stand 1 MG 15 in Bola 39 mit 450 Schuss :

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/A1l.jpg

...

Rodolphe

08-09-2010, 08:06 PM

...

You Guys in Oslo made an outstanding restoration work on those mighty Luftwaffe beauties. :grin:

Frantishek, did you find more informations on the "could be" X-Geräte Ju 88A-1 ?

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerate.jpg

...

Eugene1St

08-10-2010, 11:02 AM

Great pics Rodolphe :grin: :grin: :grin:

Flying Pencil

08-11-2010, 02:31 AM

Looks like someone let Rodolphe loose on that A-1!! ;)

Have fun??

Thanks for posting those recent pictures! I see the G-man is working hard to make a show piece out of that old bird! :D
(I check his site for progress, it is coming, but a lot of airplane for a 2~4 guys to work on).

...

You Guys in Oslo made an outstanding restoration work on those mighty Luftwaffe beauties. :grin:

Frantishek, did you find more informations on the "could be" X-Geräte Ju 88A-1 ?

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerate.jpg

...

Unfortunately my contribution is very small, I do not live in Norway (wish I did LOL).

I spent some time there applying my aircraft skillz to fix some items in the Ju-88, He-111, and Ju-52 (not all as good as I would like, out of practice)
Most of the time I was investigating the construction and system details of the aircraft, basically the German design philosophy.

To your question, according to G-man the X is not a device, weapon, or marking, but a simple 'rune' or ancient letter. Why is another question.
I should ask him again, in case he found something new.

Oh, and those still shots from the SOW WIP is just that, a WIP. Need to see the current (finished??) model.

now let me seee....

Flying Pencil

08-11-2010, 03:36 AM

I have a lot more pictures of THIS, outside & INside!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4880696743_d75f61ba8e.jpg

Some of me checking out the gun mounts, range of travel of gun...
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4880696463_46a0c91176.jpg

KG26_Alpha

08-11-2010, 02:05 PM

Frantishek

I think the X marking denotes the aircraft was fitted with X-Gerat inside the Fug 10 radio.

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerate.jpg

These aircraft would be the lead bombers in Bombing raids using the X-Gerat beams to help in the navigation to targets across England.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/X-Ger%C3%A4t.svg/255px-X-Ger%C3%A4t.svg.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvEOlYLLKUU

Ventura

08-11-2010, 07:32 PM

Lucky bastich! ..to get to work on those! :D

and great pics!

Flying Pencil

08-11-2010, 08:52 PM

Frantishek

I think the X marking denotes the aircraft was fitted with X-Gerat inside the Fug 10 radio.

Interesting, but I thought it was not used until the Blitz of 1941.
This 88 sank around March/April 1940

KG26_Alpha

08-11-2010, 09:09 PM

It was in response to Rodolphe's picture, the marking is for X-Gerat aircraft.

I'm not sure he is referring to "your" Ju88 A-1 or another ?

bolox

08-11-2010, 09:25 PM

i have it that 8 he111's used x-gerat over poland (8 kompanien LnAbt 100)

Kg100 took part in Weserubrung losing 3 aircraft . i see no Ju88's operating with that unit, 111's only, so i don't see x-gerat being fitted to this plane.

source- Pfadfinder- Ken Wakefield, Tempus publishing

KG26_Alpha

08-11-2010, 09:35 PM

I'm generally referring to X-Gerat, and not the theatre it was used in.

I was just asking if the picture from Rodolhe's was the same Ju88 as the one worked on by Frantishek.

:cool:

Flying Pencil

08-12-2010, 03:09 AM

It was in response to Rodolphe's picture, the marking is for X-Gerat aircraft.

I'm not sure he is referring to "your" Ju88 A-1 or another ?

Same 88A-1, the only one in world (that is not pile of junk)

Its web site is here:
http://ju88.net/

WTE_Galway

08-12-2010, 03:28 AM

Is that aircraft Wnr.0880119 ?

If I recall correctly it was recovered from the same lake as a he111 from KG100 the famous Luftwaffe BoB pathfinder unit.

KG100 were based in Norway just before the BoB.

Possibly the squadron this ju88 belonged to was also equipped with the Gerat-X units for testing before KG100 leaving Norway.

Rodolphe

08-12-2010, 05:37 AM

...

I was just asking if the picture from Rodolhe's was the same Ju88 as the one worked on by Frantishek.:cool:

Is that aircraft Wnr.0880119 ?

Well I didn't spill the beans ! :grin: :grin:

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/0880119.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/0880119a.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/0880119b.jpg

...

Bloblast

08-12-2010, 10:35 AM

Rudolphe,

Nice pictures, do you have more?

KG26_Alpha

08-12-2010, 11:14 AM

Heres a Pic of Wnr.0880119

Thought to be
Ju 88 A-1 W.Nr. 0880119 U4+TK of 2./KG 30
before it sank.

http://battlegroundrelics.com/album/junkers-ju-88-wreck

http://battlegroundrelics.com/sites/default/files/album/1/090503Ju88%20copy.jpg

Flying Pencil

08-12-2010, 06:04 PM

I gonna have to post more photos!

I cant have Rodolphe have all the fun! ;)

Flanker35M

08-13-2010, 05:05 AM

S!

Good for us :D Never too many pics of these rare birds.

WTE_Galway

08-15-2010, 10:07 AM

I gonna have to post more photos!

I cant have Rodolphe have all the fun! ;)

More photos would be excellent :D

csThor

08-15-2010, 10:20 AM

@ Galway

Only I./KG 100 was equipped to use the X-Verfahren in 1940 and it would remain the only one for quite some time (IIRC the Y-Verfahren replaced it soon after the BoB). As such a He 111 with X-Gerät was very distinguishable since it carried six long antennas behind the dorsal MG which stuck out about a meter.

Rodolphe

08-15-2010, 10:31 AM

...

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerat.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerat1.jpg

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerat2.jpg

KG26

http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/XGerat3.jpg

...

csThor

08-15-2010, 10:38 AM

*picks book from bookshelf*

Ooops, yep there were only 3 antennas. My fault.

I must say that a He 111 with X-Gerät and KG 26 code puzzles me a bit. It is clear that only I./KG 100 used the X-Verfahren during the BoB ... http://www.elvisonline.de/smf/Smileys/eo-smileys/gruebel.gif

KG26_Alpha

08-15-2010, 08:58 PM

Its clear only in the sense that official records would have recorded the fact.

Field modifications and staffel state of flux account for lots of anomalies in whats is fact and recorded data.

The fact that the original Ju88 A1 in this thread apparently sunk as KG 30 and was raised as KG 100 kinda goes along with that.

;)

Flying Pencil

08-16-2010, 04:04 AM

He-111 bottom gunner, same as 88A-1 has.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4881305214_44a91c2ccd.jpg

Me in 111, taking notes. ;)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4080/4881304988_af8ec30ed0.jpg

Ju-88A-1 lower rear area, minus the gondola
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4881305626_27cf475002.jpg

The corroded back panel in Ju88 inside...
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4880697363_f2e5247798.jpg

outside...
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4880695699_3ecf196d05.jpg

...and after removing it.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4880696049_e5855db6ed.jpg

They where incredible and gave me a LOT of room to study and take pictures (note the top hatch is open!)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4881289104_38f59d2469.jpg

robtek

08-16-2010, 07:29 AM

Wonderful pictures!
More, more!! :-D

Flying Pencil

08-18-2010, 02:34 AM

Hook of DOOOM! (should not be too hard to figure this out)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4880696249_6b484a720b.jpg

Friendly_flyer

08-18-2010, 06:50 AM

He-111 bottom gunner, same as 88A-1 has.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4881305214_44a91c2ccd.jpg

Very nice!

Are the spent cartridges put in for show, or were they found there when the plane was raised?

Skarphol

08-18-2010, 06:58 AM

Very nice!

Are the spent cartridges put in for show, or were they found there when the plane was raised?

I'm pretty sure that is He 111P 5J+CN wich is in Gardermoen, if I'm right this plane wasn't raised but salvaged by helicopter from the mountains near Lesja.

Anyhow; I thought the whole purpose of that kind of MG-magazine was to collect all the spent cartrigdes in the right half? Having lots of empty cartrigdes flying around in the gondola while firing the gun must be very distracting for the gunner?

Skarphol

robtek

08-18-2010, 04:45 PM

afaik there are rounds in both sides of the mag (75 each side), fed alternately, while the spent cartridges are ejected downward.

Flying Pencil

08-18-2010, 06:02 PM

Very nice!

Are the spent cartridges put in for show, or were they found there when the plane was raised?

Yes, exactly as they where found!!!1!1one!

Heck no! J/K! Laid there for show.

I'm pretty sure that is He 111P 5J+CN wich is in Gardermoen, if I'm right this plane wasn't raised but salvaged by helicopter from the mountains near Lesja.

Anyhow; I thought the whole purpose of that kind of MG-magazine was to collect all the spent cartrigdes in the right half? Having lots of empty cartrigdes flying around in the gondola while firing the gun must be very distracting for the gunner?

Skarphol

Correct, 111P 5J+CN, rescued off a mountain.
And robtek (below) correctly described the operation.

Normally there is a collection bag under the MG15, but few exist today.
BUT, the very low mounting of the MG15 puts it so close, in this case there is a door at the bottom, between the piles of casings, the gunner could open and dump them out the 111.

afaik there are rounds in both sides of the mag (75 each side), fed alternately, while the spent cartridges are ejected downward.

Correct, 37 each side, 1 in middle. ;)