109 etc. Riat 2010

[Glider_UK]

These are just a small set of photos that i took at Riat 2010
It was great to see the 109 flying.
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz190/Glider_uk/Riat2010131.jpg
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz190/Glider_uk/Riat2010150.jpg
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz190/Glider_uk/Riat2010198.jpg
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz190/Glider_uk/Riat2010651.jpg

I have some better ones just after landing if I get time i'll post tham also.
Hope you like them.

Glider_uk

[KG26_Alpha]

Nice

I was up that way last week just didn't have time to get into Fairford

http://www.airtattoo.com/airshow

[Glider_UK]

Thats a shame it was a great show. The F22 was awesome also the Vulcan.

[rakinroll]

Thanks Glider_UK, great shots, thanks. But it is so unacceptable that the 109G-4 (first pic) has not got swastika. I think, in a historical show, putting a ban on historical signs just bs.

[JtD]

Restore your own 109, feel free to put on a Swastika. If I was EADS, I wouldn't do it and therefore fully understand that they don't.

Thanks for the pics, Glider.

[Xilon_x]

Svastica is illegal.
Why in this photo svastica is legal?

[DB605]

Nice pics, thank you!

[HanneG]

Svastica is illegal.
Why in this photo svastica is legal?

Some countries haven't caught the PC bug yet.

[Tempest123]

Nice Pics!

[Glider_UK]

Thanks guys, has for the svastika, I just love to see these warbirds fly and long may they do so, I don't care what stickers they put on them. My interest in aircraft has nothing to do with politics past and present.

[rakinroll]

Restore your own 109, feel free to put on a Swastika. If I was EADS, I wouldn't do it and therefore fully understand that they don't.

Thanks for the pics, Glider.

So you should restore any allied plane, not a historical ww2 German plane.

[remer1957]

Should have the Haakenkreuz. Looks stupid with the modern german flag.

[Igo kyu]

So you should restore any allied plane, not a historical ww2 German plane.
Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

[julian265]

Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

"I disagree with you, so I'll bring up the holocaust". Nice.

[rakinroll]

Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

I am not talkin about nazism or holocaust and ofcourse i do not approve it. :-x How did you think like that? :confused: I am just talking about that beatiful historical warplane with his weird skin.

[Igo kyu]

"I disagree with you, so I'll bring up the holocaust". Nice.
Nope.

I disagree with the holocaust, so when it seems possibly relevant, I will mention it.

I do not generally expect people to be pro-holocaust, but some thankfully rare people are, so it's worth asking.

[JtD]

Why do you restore aircraft? As a tribute to technology.

Why do you paint swastikas? As a tribute to history.

I think that the aircraft of that time deserve the tribute. The Nazis don't.

[julian265]

I don't believe that there's one 'right' answer to this, of course.

But to me it seems that if you're wanting to avoid giving tribute to something via a painted symbol, you certainly can't avoid giving tribute to the same people via the restoration of one of their machines of war.

[WTE_Galway]

Its probably also important to point out that not all Luftwaffe aircraft had the Hakenkuz during the war.

JG53 painted theirs over after a dispute with Goering about markings for example:

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/4034/4034.schmidt.jpg


http://thumbsnap.com/i/K1gJUFZN.jpg

[Blackdog_kt]

This swastika debate that keeps resurfacing is a bit ridiculous, because people confuse the importance of historical accuracy and they think it's paying homage to an inhuman regime. The swastika is an emblem of an inhuman, criminal regime. It's also part of history and history needs to be able to tell the whole story. Otherwise it's not history and doesn't serve it's primary purpose, to help us avoid the repetition of past mistakes.

History essentially is the effort to write down, catalogue and index in the most accurate fashion the happenings of ages before our own. In that sense, emblems of military and political organizations are part of that history.

People don't have to agree with the political/ideological platform behind the symbol, but cutting symbols out in favor of the so called political correctness is cutting parts of history itself. People are so obsessed with protecting the young from what they see on TV, in video games, in books and they still fail to realize that the reason kids falter is not what they see there...it's because they are doing it all alone without supervision or guidance from their parents.

Every single of my plastic model airplanes i used to build as a kid had accurate markings and if they were German WWII birds i was applying hackenkreuz decals. I didn't kill anybody, i still oppose the ideas of fascism, i have friends from other countries and nations and i still remember that the axis occupation cost my country 10% of its population. I'm pretty much an anti-nazi and the reason is that i could get my hands on some accurate history (at least what is widely accepted as accurate) and make up my mind about what happened.

I mean, if we want the hackenkreuz to disappear from the history books, what about the emblems of the USSR? Staling killed around the same number of people as Hitler did, should their emblems be banished from history too? Should the flags of all the modern superpowers and the guerilla factions that oppose them in various wars around the globe be cast aside too because they all do nasty things? Of course not, because then we'll have no knowledge and no recollection about the collective f-ups of the human species. We need to know and know it all, just in case that we someday learn how to avoid it.

People don't need to be "protected" from negative images and notions all the time. In fact, i think they need to be free to view more of it if they so desire, so that when the natural aversion kicks in they realize that "wow, this thing really is bad". Shielding people from every single thing leaves you with a society of desensitized drones that are oblivious, indifferent and uncarring to the nasty things that are still happening around the world today. I say show them swastikas, but also show them what it stood for, let the shock factor sink in and it won't be long before they realize and make up their minds about it. In short, show them history in the most accurate and truthful way.

On the other hand, if a German law prevents EADS from displaying the emblem i won't throw a fit over it either. I just want history preserved, i'm not going to go all ballistic over it if a modern replica or reconstruction appears

Back on topic, thanks for the very nice pictures. The 109 always looks good, i just wish i could fly it in a semi-decent way in IL2 but i totally suck with it :-P

[swiss]

Svastica is illegal.


Only in Germany - if used without correct historical context.

wiki:

The European Union's Executive Commission proposed a European Union-wide anti-racism law in 2001, but European Union states failed to agree on the balance between prohibiting racism and freedom of expression.[63] An attempt to ban the swastika across the EU in early 2005 failed after objections from the British Government and others. In early 2007, while Germany held the European Union presidency, Berlin proposed that the European Union should follow German Criminal Law and criminalize the denial of the Holocaust and the display of Nazi symbols including the swastika, which is based on the Ban on the Symbols of Unconstitutional Organisations Act. This led to an opposition campaign by Hindu groups across Europe against a ban on the swastika. They pointed out that the swastika has been around for 5,000 years as a symbol of peace.[64][65] The proposal to ban the swastika was dropped by Berlin from the proposed European Union wide anti-racism laws on January 29, 2007.[63]

[Glider_UK]

Well I think i'll hold off posting any more pics then. The next thing we will be bitching about will be the red crosses on tunics from the crusades. Never deny the past but always learn from it. that is my opinion.

[JtD]

I'll certainly be bitching about something if you hold off posting more pics. ;)

Waiting for more.

[lbuchele]

It´s important here everytime you post a picture of old or present aircraft with a swastika on it to write a post-it , something like : "please I´m not a nazi lover, I not agree with holocaust, I don´t approve Hitler,etc..."
This way you prevent that some people initiate the same boring and senseless discussion about something that everyone here that came to this forum are tired to know:
We like history, we like accuracy,we doesn´t like nazism at all.
Period.
Let´s move to more constructive discussion.

[Glider_UK]

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz190/Glider_uk/Riat2010292.jpg
Unless Daffy is Controversial

[swiss]

still a butt ugly airplane ;)

[Xilon_x]

loock this simbol.
this simbol call FASCIO is illegal?

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS10.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS09.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS08.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS07.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS06.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS05.jpg

[LukeFF]

A swastika debate that goes bad - gee, who would've guessed that would happen? :rolleyes:

[DB605]

The aircraft is a post war Buchon rebuilt with a DB engine and some G10 parts and a name plate from a wreck.


EDIT: If I have the correct aircraft, I also believe this aircraft has now been repainted in a completely fictional scheme with yellow wing tips.

Wrong aircraft ;) This is EADS G4, not "Buchon-G10".

[swiss]

loock this simbol.
this simbol call FASCIO is illegal?

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS10.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS09.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS08.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS07.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS06.jpg

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Fotog/Museo_Scienza_2006/MS05.jpg

It's illegal? Where? In Italy?

Do you now the history of the symbol?

It actually a Roman sign, called lat. "fasces" which means "bundle".

[Igo kyu]

It's illegal? Where? In Italy?

Do you now the history of the symbol?

It actually a Roman sign, called lat. "fasces" which means "bundle".
Famously the symbol of the facists. The idea apparently being that by binding together some feeble twigs, you can make a handle that will work for an axe.

It is pretty much the italian equivalent of the swastica, arguably more extreme/unambiguous, but outside italy it it's mostly not understood, so it passes with little comment. Especially since Fascist Italy didn't actually participate in the holocaust in quite the numbers that Nazi Germany did.

[swiss]

Famously the symbol of the facists. The idea apparently being that by binding together some feeble twigs, you can make a handle that will work for an axe.

It's a Roman sign of authority, nothing more nothing less.
Thank god mussolini didn't come up with the idea to use a red star...



It is pretty much the italian equivalent of the swastica, arguably more extreme/unambiguous, but outside italy it it's mostly not understood, so it passes with little comment. Especially since Fascist Italy didn't actually participate in the holocaust in quite the numbers that Nazi Germany did.

Yes I am aware of that, I can read wiki myself, thx.
In Switzerland it's the crest of a canton:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9Y9fy-asILk/SrnPP-6eB5I/AAAAAAAAAJA/POxjQrRtQRA/s320/flagge-st-gallen-large.gif

NAZI SWITZERLAND!

btw: is it possible you're a little fascistoid? Or are you just German?

[julian265]

It's a Roman sign of authority, nothing more nothing less.

I'm not sure I understand your meaning behind "nothing more nothing less"*,
however the swastika was also in use before you-know-who used it.

*Do you mean that it was a pre-existing symbol and so doesn't need to be avoided? Or that it wasn't an analogy with an axe?

[Igo kyu]

The fasces may have originally been an ancient roman symbol, but when the Fascists chose it as their name, they pretty much took it over.

[WTE_Galway]

Its worth pointing out that the Soviet Red Star is also banned in quite a few countries including Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.

[swiss]

I'm not sure I understand your meaning behind "nothing more nothing less"*,
however the swastika was also in use before you-know-who used it.

*Do you mean that it was a pre-existing symbol and so doesn't need to be avoided?

Bingo.

You can't just run away from history. If some ppl abuse it - well, the will use it anyway.
Banning whatever is wrong in general, it's a sign of capitulation of a society.

[AndyJWest]

Banning whatever is wrong in general, it's a sign of capitulation of a society.
Banning 'Whatever'? That isn't the question. Societies ban all sorts of things - child pornography, racial abuse, advocating support for terrorism... The bans don't stop such things occurring, but they do indicate a society's disapproval. As it happens, I think that banning political symbols in a historical context is often excessive, but given 20th century history, to ignore the power of such symbols entirely could be a mistake. As long as there are Neo-Nazis etc who use such symbols to spread their messages of hate, I can sympathise with those who would rather not see them at all.

[swiss]

"...whatever [sign]", i guess it got lost when i edited the post.

I can sympathise with those who would rather not see them at all.

And they magically vanish?

[whatnot]

Well I think i'll hold off posting any more pics then. The next thing we will be bitching about will be the red crosses on tunics from the crusades. Never deny the past but always learn from it. that is my opinion.

Please continue posting your pics, love to see them. This whole swastika discussion that emerges every once in a while here and elswhere is idiotic. Having authentic markings in WW2 era airplane (how authetic the sample picture here was is irrelevant) is a totally different story than having it stiched into the jacket shoulder of a neonazi or whatever.

I can't believe the hysterical reaction even some smart individuals still have on 'forbidden' emblems in historical context. If our way of protecting the ugly part of our history from repeating itself is so much bound on irrelevant details like this we're waaay off the target.

It's like the discussion on immigration in many countries these days: voice any criticism or concern on anything related to that and you're a racists by default who wants to 'close the borders'. After a while in this dialogue the nazi-card is pulled from the deck eventually too.

A good summary of the above is a comment in this thread: "Do you mean you approve of the holocaust?"

WTF?!

Hate to stirr the water of this overdiscussed subject but couldn't help myself even though Blackdog put my thoughts to words pretty well.

[Xilon_x]

loock this video is really SVASTICA is free not illegal but legal WHY?
this 109 fly in modern time whit embleme of svastica.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXJ2nAQI5sM&feature=related
yes SVASTICA is free embleme no WAR no HOLOCAUST no NAZZIST is only demonstration of storic event is only SHOW not really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYLyrEsTZ60&feature=related

VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM uaoooooooo this is real sound of airplane zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzvvvvrrrooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm. FANTASTIC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=strKBh9otYc&feature=related

[HanneG]

While it is true that the swastika or Hakenkreuz is banned from public display in a lot of instances in Germany, this ban does not necessarily extend to items on display in museums, even if the exhibits in question are just static or replicas, see for example the Fw190 in Laatzen, Bf109 in Gatow and others elsewhere.

The rationale behind it probably being that museums = educational, while airshows = entertainment.
Another reason why eg. the G-4 (ex Buchon) does not at least have a "historically correct" paint scheme, is that the owners and sponsors in Germany, usually large corporations, tend to be wanting to avoid any negative publicity or association with the the past or anything that might potentially damage their image, so they pick photog-friendly and inoccuous variants over the menacing wartime originals.

And for the guy wondering why the machines in the videos carry swastikas, you might want to check where and when these were shot.

[swiss]

loock this video is really SVASTICA is free not illegal but legal WHY?
this 109 fly in modern time whit embleme of svastica.



READ THE POSTS:

If the Sw is shown in historically correct context it's ok.

- historically correct paint scheme
- not a post war 109

that makes it legal even in Germany.


Plus: it's displayed in UK, RAF museum (in Collindale) if I remember correctly, I was there in March.

One more:There is NO general swastika BAN in Europe, only in some countries.
Are there any others besides Germany at all?

[WTE_Galway]

READ THE POSTS:

One more:There is NO general swastika BAN in Europe, only in some countries.
Are there any others besides Germany at all?

The symbol is banned in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, France, Brazil and probably other countries I am unaware of.

The WORD itself is banned in Germany which is why most long term IL2 players refer to it as the Hakenkruez.

Exceptions in Germany include certain historical documents/items and works of art. However presumably a historical item locked away in a museum is perceived differently to a blatant public display at airshows and on television.

[julian265]

The WORD itself is banned in Germany which is why most long term IL2 players refer to it as the Hakenkruez.

:shock:

[HanneG]

The word Hakenkreuz is simply the autochthonous designation for swastikas. Neither word is banned in Germany. Public display of the symbol on the other hand is banned, or at least limited, in accordance with § 86a StGB. http://bundesrecht.juris.de/stgb/BJNR001270871BJNE020804307.html

[julian265]

Much more reasonable!

[bf-110]

What plane is the one of the second photo?
Is that a Bf-109????

[WTE_Galway]

What plane is the one of the second photo?
Is that a Bf-109????

nah ... RR powered Hispano Buchon :


Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6CXe3_AsXY

[engarde]

Some countries haven't caught the PC bug yet.

not having any european connections whatsoever the swastika means nothing to me, but i can see how it would evoke terrible feelings in some.

still, these are period machines, not political statements, so, yeah, less hysteria more context?

[engarde]

What plane is the one of the second photo?
Is that a Bf-109????

:eek: