Next gen SoW needs next gen Icons!

[Borsch]

While the game is still in development, I wanted to attract attention to the Icons issue in WW1-2 flight sims. The status quo with icons at the moment - in IL2, but also more recent sims like Rise of |Flight and Wings of Prey is that we are given colored boxes/arrows with letters/numbers to help us identify planes.

I strongly believe that this a HUUUUGE immersion killer! Looking out from your Gladiator/I16 cockpit to see electronic ticking numbers with a box surrounding an opponent plane!?!?!!!!.....

Yes, an alternative is to turn them off, but that causes too much eye strain with lack of 3D depth (available to real pilots) also making it harder to spot planes. In any case, icons are a necessary option for beginners/etc so why not have a more creative approach than the blunt conspicuous boxes we have now:!:

Suggestion:
Why not make planes easier to spot by increasing their contrast against the background? For example, we can have green plane displayed as bright white when at a distance above 1km and when it is against dark background.

Another option is an exaggerated sun reflections from a plane, maybe as some combination with the above.


What do YOU think? The "make it easier to spot" effects can have a slider in the options and thus be open to tuning to achieve immersion-usability balance.

It will be pretty pathetic to see dozens of beautiful SoW planes against beautiful SoW landscapes with columns of red boxes/names/numbers totally ruining the immersion. Lets throw some ideas to Oleg's team!

What do you think?:-)

[Dano]

Good idea, anything that removes the need for textual labels would be a good plan in my opinion :)

[julian265]

I'd love to see some more options too. I became used to identifying 'dots' eventually, but beginners sometimes need a helping hand.

Perhaps a small red or blue dot, visible within X distance, to indicate the plane's team. This would be appropriate for some servers or new players, who would like more realism than text, whilst acknowledging the poor representation of medium distance planes with a few pixels, or average monitors.

More options regarding any text would also be nice. Distance and BRIEF name are OK, but some names in IL-2 were simply too long in this context.

[philip.ed]

Well, in BoB2 there is a button you can press to view the nearest enemy A/C or the formation you have been vectored to. Your player will turn his head to look padlock the A/C, even before they can be seen. This is useful when wanting to fly exactly on the vector heading, but in many respects unrealistic. What would be realistic is the ability, when the game calculates the A/C could be see by the human eye, for the player to either automatically padlock the formation, or be able to padlock them if they decide to press the key. Apart from TIR, I doubt that full peripheral-vision can be modelled in a sim. No matter how it's modelled, flying virtually will never be the same as in real life. Formation flying is certainly harder in a flight sim because in real life you know when you're in formation correctly, you can then turn your head and look around, but in a flight-sim you lose sight of the plane in front which makes flying whilst looking around quite annoying.

I suppose semi-transparent cockpits may be an idea, but I wouldn't like that.

[SEE]

There are no Icons in WOP (sim level) in SP or MP. In MP sessions, a/c are identified only by the Red or Blue team marking on the fuselage/wings but, the approx location of all a/c in the game is shown on the map. Niether can you view enemy a/c and ground targets during flight using the external camera, much better IMO.

[Matt255]

I've never been a IL2 online player.

But in Rise of Flight, almost every server uses no icons at all, which is a big plus for the flying and fighting experience imo.

When i fly in IL2, i don't use icons either. I know it's difficult to distinguish planes, especially for beginners (i flew IL2 for the first time since 2005 or so, a few weeks ago, so i consider myself a beginner), but they can get used to it. Especially with the BoB theatre, with german planes using yellow parts on their planes for ease of identification (i guess they had this problem aswell).

Of course i don't have anything against improved icons in BoB, but i would suggest other people to start using no-icons from the beginning and get used to it, instead of switching icons on. It feels a lot more realistic imo and i know it's about fun, but the more realistic a flightsim is, the more fun it is for me, especially in the long run.

[philip.ed]

I don't mind the small peripheral icons that appear at the side of the screen (although i only fly with them in BoB2) as they give one a sense of peripheral vision, but objects directly in front are still un-labeled ;)

[Borsch]

There are no Icons in WOP (sim level) in SP or MP. In MP sessions, a/c are identified only by the Red or Blue team marking on the fuselage/wings but, the approx location of all a/c in the game is shown on the map. Niether can you view enemy a/c and ground targets during flight using the external camera, much better IMO.

WoP has custom settings where you could fly with full sim realism (WoP style;) :) but still have icons. Playing without icons is almost impossible in that game as planes blend with the ground much TOO well, most "iconless" online matches I took part in, had most people crawling along the floor and spotting blind wanderers in the sky... Also, I heard that many people do not like to fly online on Il2 Slovakia map- the rich(er) ground environment hides the planes too much as well. SoW ground environment is bound to be rich (and it should be of course), so this problem could also be exacerbated- hopefully not to WoP level...


Back on topic of IL2/SoW, I do have TrackIR and absolutely love it to bits (biggest revolution in flight sims since IL2 imho) but my eyes just cant take the punishment of prolonged IL2 sessions with icons off...

Another idea I have, is to have a button that activates icons while it is held (to help with quick initial identification- often the hardest bit, the tracking of acquired target is usually easier), and when this button is released, the view goes back to normal realistic.
But this still wont save us from skies being FILLED with numbers/text/boxes when a formation of planes is coming - killing the atmosphere:(

I think that the "exaggerated contrast" approach is good alternative to traditional icons. I know that even some people who record .TRKs of their duels with AI ace bots assign "void" white skins to AI planes.

Adding hue (red/blue etc) to contrasting/overly reflective surface of a distant plane is good idea too. But I dont like auto padlock idea- there bound to be problems with padlock's "stupidity" when prioritizing lock ons, plus I dont like my head "forced" to be turned. BoB's "off screen pointers" is a decently executed idea, but still wont solve the problem of looking exactly into the right area, but seeing nothing but distant trees and shrubs...

[Letum]

On this "lack of real 3d vision" thing;
In real like you don't have any depth perception beyond about 10m infront
of your face.
The difference between what your tow eyes see just becomes too tiny more
than a few meters away.

[BadAim]

Don't forget guys that Oleg and the boys (and girl[s]) must have improved the LOD/Dot situation by now. Il2 is optimized for 1024x768 on computers from the early part of last decade. Modern machines and rendering techniques should alleviate much, if not all of the trouble with IL2 in high realism settings.

I do however like the Idea of perhaps a higher contrast setting for newer/more casual players, though I'm not sure how much help that will be. I think a less obtrusive version of standard icon types might be in order as well. Maybe icons that appear at longer distances and go away closer (impossible with IL2).

[Feathered_IV]

All I require from icons is the ability to shut them off.

[=PF=Coastie]

I think an adjustment to "icons" for those that use them is certainly in order.

However, more impotantly for me, would be a huge improvement to "dots" and LOD's(which was mentioned earlier) since I prefer to fly with no icons.

I think improving the changeover from Dots to LOD's is the key and it needs to be self scaling depending on the resolution you are using. I currently have to fly in 720P on a 1080P monitor so I can see dots correctly and long distances because of the way they are currently moddeled at low res. We shouldn't have to do that with todays technology and high resolutions.

My 2 cents...

[Hunden]

I am new to il2, 6 months now and i have not used icons, ever, it is a killer of realism to me. I do however use my map when i have to and every view that i can to help spot enemy. I know not so real either but not so bad as icons in the sky killing the mood.

[Borsch]

I am new to il2, 6 months now and i have not used icons, ever, it is a killer of realism to me. I do however use my map when i have to and every view that i can to help spot enemy. I know not so real either but not so bad as icons in the sky killing the mood.

Impressive! I also started playing about 8 months ago, but still prefer to play with icons- mostly to relieve eye strain. Although I switched of map icon as those kill the suspense/surprise factor for me:)

Another aid with target identification would e a button that when pressed would prompt your (obviously all seeing) AI wingman to report the position of the enemy- as coordinates on a map ( eg " enemy in square Q-10"), an also its relative position (eg 3 o'clock - like its currently implemented in IL2) and its altitude. The main point is for this to happen ON DEMAND from a player eg at a press of a button, or at least to have that option.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Uhmm, interesting. Maybe, just as an idea, a good option would be that you have to press a key to see the icons, and keep it pressed to keep the icons on. When you release the key the icons fade away. This way its a momentary trade off you give to the beginner to know which aircraft is which, and the distance.
And also may help the newbies to start to learn by the size of the plane the distance of the aircraft.
Beside that, it should be configurable like in IL-2 if you want color to give a diference between friend or foe, ro want to see all icons on the same color making necesary learn the aircraft designation to know if enemy or friendly.

[Baco]

I also agree that the option to press a buttyton for momentarilly icons (and limited to a certain "cone" maybe), is the best compormise. You have inmersion all of the time but the information you might want (or need) at the touch of a button....

[WTE_Galway]

I do not use icons, but then again I also turn off the chat and the LHS speedbar and the RHS HUD display.

[Novotny]

I think this is an important area - if well realised, it could open this simulation up to a whole new crowd. I don't use icons myself, however I can understand how necessary they are.

Some thoughts from me.

Player refers to us, pilot refers to the character the player is controlling.

Bogie at your 9 o'clock, 2km away. No icon shows up until the player actually bring the dot into his vision for an appropriate time - dependent on difficulty level: for example 'easy' being 1 second, 'hard' being three or more, the idea being to prevent players simply flicking around all the views and 'lighting up their radar', so to speak. The time delay involved with having the dot in view corresponds to the pilot 'searching for it'.

Once 'noticed', the icon/dot/indicator (as yet, unrecognised, merely noted) can remain on the edge of screen for a relative time corresponding with blind spots in the aircraft and again difficulty level. At some point, if the dot occupies a blind spot for long enough or the player simply does not look in that direction again, then the icon disappears, as the pilot can no longer be sure where that previously sighted aircraft is.

Then I'd suggest that the dot does not become recognised until it has been stared at for a time dependent on difficulty level and distance. Once these factors are satisfied, then it could be revealed as either friendly, enemy, or perhaps unknown.

Again, difficulty levels could determine how much info is given once recognition is achieved.

Just thoughts, you understand. Good thread.

[Borsch]

I wonder if the devs saw this thread?...

Mr Oleg Maddox, please see this!:)

[Splitter]

Impressive! I also started playing about 8 months ago, but still prefer to play with icons- mostly to relieve eye strain. Although I switched of map icon as those kill the suspense/surprise factor for me:)

Another aid with target identification would e a button that when pressed would prompt your (obviously all seeing) AI wingman to report the position of the enemy- as coordinates on a map ( eg " enemy in square Q-10"), an also its relative position (eg 3 o'clock - like its currently implemented in IL2) and its altitude. The main point is for this to happen ON DEMAND from a player eg at a press of a button, or at least to have that option.

One has to think there are observers on the ground and squad mates in the air. I think the ability to get vectored to the enemy (not 100% accurate in all circumstances though) would add to realism rather than take away from it.

I am thinking of my current stock campaign in the Crimea and many missions are flown over friendly territory or close to the line of battle. It would be realistic to assume that reports could get to the pilot about enemy planes being spotted. Maybe the information is old, maybe it is incomplete or inaccurate at times, but having it there would be a blast.

Splitter

[Hunden]

I've never been a IL2 online player.

But in Rise of Flight, almost every server uses no icons at all, which is a big plus for the flying and fighting experience imo.

When i fly in IL2, i don't use icons either. I know it's difficult to distinguish planes, especially for beginners (i flew IL2 for the first time since 2005 or so, a few weeks ago, so i consider myself a beginner), but they can get used to it. Especially with the BoB theatre, with german planes using yellow parts on their planes for ease of identification (i guess they had this problem aswell).

Of course i don't have anything against improved icons in BoB, but i would suggest other people to start using no-icons from the beginning and get used to it, instead of switching icons on. It feels a lot more realistic imo and i know it's about fun, but the more realistic a flightsim is, the more fun it is for me, especially in the long run.

+1

[6S.Manu]

I only want a more realistic way of spotting enemies under or above your plane.

It's really frustrating not seeing a contact 500m under your plane because of forest but still you can see enemies 4km above because they are big black dots: like inferior camo was useless.

Usually planes were visible because of sun reflections or exhaust emissions, and on night because of the red hot exhaust tubes.

I'm so pissed off by those single grey discs on your six (yes I'm talking about spitfires' propellers... the only thing I see together with the flames from the side of the disc, that are her cannons when she fires)

[winny]

Nobody, as yet, seems to have worked out how to simulate the human eye.

I think visual cues as already mentioned would be good, a quick flash of reflected light or a slight flicker of movement down low would be good.

And when is somebody going to introduce a padlock view that only keeps lock on as long as you have line of sight from the cockpit (apologies if someone already has) whatever view you use.

[Schallmoser]

Winny, IL2 Does. if the padlocked a/c disapears for a couple of seconds behind a cocpit bar or somewhere else it gets unlocked.

cheers
Schallmoser

[winny]

Winny, IL2 Does. if the padlocked a/c disapears for a couple of seconds behind a cocpit bar or somewhere else it gets unlocked.

cheers
Schallmoser

Lol.. as with most good ideas.. Someone already thought of it.. I'll be quiet.

[Aviar]

Some people may not be aware, but IL-2 already has a custom icons feature that can be set by the server (online) or by the player (offline). I've been using custom icons in my coops for many years.
Here is a simple tutorial on how to do it:


http://www.il2-fullmissionbuilder.com/custom-icons.html?PHPSESSID=4c28b17b215eb337f1b2cef688e07 4ae


Also:

ECV56_Lancelot stated--->

"Maybe, just as an idea, a good option would be that you have to press a key to see the icons, and keep it pressed to keep the icons on. When you release the key the icons fade away."

IL-2 already has the 'Toggle Icon Types' command, which basically does exactly that, except it is a 4-stage toggle. The player can toggle 3 stages of icon visibility or totally disable them. That pretty much achieves what Lancelot was requesting. *If you have some sort of joystick mapping software, like CH Manager, you could easily set up a macro command that does EXACTLY what Lancelot was requesting.....:)


Aviar

[kendo65]

...

It's really frustrating not seeing a contact 500m under your plane because of forest but still you can see enemies 4km above because they are big black dots: like inferior camo was useless.

...


Sounds realistic to me

[Skoshi Tiger]

If you still want the functionality of icons but with less impact on your imersion, how about only showing the icons when the aircraft is in the center of your vision - so you need to be actually looking and concentrating at the aircraft to identify it.
You could even have it so the icons for the plane in the center of vison are only shown when your holding down a mapped a key?


Cheers

[Thunderbolt56]

I'm not a purist, but I don't like icons of any kind.

Let the user turn them on, turn them off or adjust them in stages, I don't care as long as I can turn them off and force them off on a hosted server I'll be cool.

IFF is important and not knowing profiles or markings is inexcusable IMO.

[Xilon_x]

ICON only optional in the game .
i real ww2 i noot loock the icons i loock the instrumentation in real ww2 airplane i not have gps i have the chart map i real ww2 airplane i not have the electronic instrumentation.
the real ww2 is all meccanic structure not eletronic.
in real ww2 airplane i not have the airplane prexurizaction and i not have the perfect orietation.

[IceFire]

I'm not a purist, but I don't like icons of any kind.

Let the user turn them on, turn them off or adjust them in stages, I don't care as long as I can turn them off and force them off on a hosted server I'll be cool.

IFF is important and not knowing profiles or markings is inexcusable IMO.

So many of the online player public haven't a clue what the difference between different markings are. Even in servers where historical markings are enforced we have Dutch A6Ms and Slovakian P-39s and German Corsairs. They will come around but don't give them too much credit :D

Options are always good. Icons on if you want them. Icons off if you don't. Configurable settings to setup how the Icons work if you do want them. Keeps everyone happy! :)

[heckbomber]

distinguishing planes at distance was near impossible in il2 due to the highly pixelated low res textures, and planes being nothing more than a small dot or a large dot at distance,... SOW will support much higher res, up to 2560 x 1600 id imagine and planes will be more detailed, not to mention less types of them, i think it will be alot easier to id planes than in il2