Another method of activating SOW.........

[the Dutchman]

.......just guessing here,but it will probably go the RoF way,isn''t there any other activation method possible?
How about a "real" key,say an USB stick that you have to put in your pc to interact with the DVD to start up or something?
Wrap it all up in an attractive package and it's a whole different ballgame,not the idea being checked unwanted everytime online,NO.......
Instead your own personal start-up key!
Just a thought............

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Too expensive, I guess.

I feel more uncomfortable for wasting another USB port than for having to be online while playing.

And by the way, for your information, Rise of Flight has dropped the online activation since quite a while ;)

The developers listened to the player's wishes and now everyone's happy.

I'd vote for either RoF or DCS/Flaming Cliffs 2 style activation. No drivers or anything like that, just activate once (i.e. type the code written inside the package) and you're free to go.

I can't see why it wouldn't work.

[AKA_Tenn]

in the end, the best way to do it would be like Blizzard does with battle.net, the only way to log in to play online is with a valid CD key, and playing offline u can do whatever u want with a fake one... because this game will really shine online, i think most people will buy it, even if they could play it offline for free. also they could make any updates/expantions require a valid CD key that needs to be verified by logging into the online mode, so that way those that wanna play offline with a fake key still can, but those with the real key get their updates and expantions.

[AndyJWest]

in the end, the best way to do it would be like Blizzard does with battle.net, the only way to log in to play online is with a valid CD key, and playing offline u can do whatever u want with a fake one... because this game will really shine online, i think most people will buy it, even if they could play it offline for free. also they could make any updates/expantions require a valid CD key that needs to be verified by logging into the online mode, so that way those that wanna play offline with a fake key still can, but those with the real key get their updates and expantions.

I could live with that, no problem, so long as the checking it does is confined to whether I have legitimate SoW software, and it isn't used as an excuse to nose around elsewhere on the PC.

I can't see much of an objection to requiring connection for initial activation either (preferably with another method if you can't avtually connect with the PC you've installed on - from what I remember, FSX did this). Requiring a check to play offline is not only intrusive, it is unlikely to help sales much though.

[zapatista]

in the end, the best way to do it would be like Blizzard does with battle.net, the only way to log in to play online is with a valid CD key, and playing offline u can do whatever u want with a fake one... because this game will really shine online, i think most people will buy it, even if they could play it offline for free. also they could make any updates/expantions require a valid CD key that needs to be verified by logging into the online mode, so that way those that wanna play offline with a fake key still can, but those with the real key get their updates and expantions.

probably true for those living in modern western countries with good net connections available everywhere. this isnt true for large parts of russia, latin america, rural area's of western europe, new zeeland and australia, large parts of asia etc..

point being, you can have 4 or 5 players in those less-good-internet area play a coop over local phone lines, a lan meeting, or in their offices after hrs, wifi hot spots etc. having all these people dependent on a server check somewhere in the big modern world is just not realistic. i know oleg takes this in consideration, as he has in the past. good protections are also built into the game during development, not added on at the end as an afterthought (to easy to crack then). i have all confidence in oleg he wont just market his game for spoilt rich kids with uber net connections in the west, and he will have kept in mind lesser net access area's.

the "usb key" suggested by the OP is not a bad idea imho. a bulk purchase for small size usb keys probably brings their price down to less then 1$, its a realistic alternative. i doubt oleg would use it, but its an option

[Skoshi Tiger]

The problem with using a hardware dongle is that there is a cost involved and they are not a 100% secure.

Hacker can still crack the software and bypass the activation code just as easily as they would a software method.

At least with online verification a server can check if you've got a legitimate copy before it allows you to download any updates and patches etc.

I don't mind the ROF method myself and have only been stung once witht the server being down.

Cheers!

[csThor]

I'm sure the guys who would support such BS (= permanently online) would be the first to howl and scream murder once, a few years down the line, the publishers require club membership and monthly fees even for offline content. Have fun in that world ... :roll:

[Skoshi Tiger]

I'm sure the guys who would support such BS (= permanently online) would be the first to howl and scream murder once, a few years down the line, the publishers require club membership and monthly fees even for offline content. Have fun in that world ... :roll:

Your probably right! :)

One of my concerns would be how it would effect people like yourself and the rest of the TD people.

Considering how much you guys have added to IL2, I'ld hope any DRM would allow some scope for input from community goups such as yourselves.

I know it's not worth talking about modding even before a sim has been released, but my hopes are that SOW will be 'SO BIG' that there will be areas when you guys can have an input.

Cheers!

[zauii]

I'm sure the guys who would support such BS (= permanently online) would be the first to howl and scream murder once, a few years down the line, the publishers require club membership and monthly fees even for offline content. Have fun in that world ... :roll:

The fun thing is that the so called "BS" are the people themselves that surround each other with something they claim to be "their rights", when there is no such thing here..
The developers make the game and they themselves alone have every right in the world to protect their own game/property in any way they see fit no matter how much you twist and turn it.

BS is only the talk of "wannabe pirates" scared that their product would be generated useless 5 years later, but let me enlighten you, we live in 2010 a time when protection is necessary.

Why would you be so worried about whats gonna happen 5 years from now ? If you're really that paranoid maybe you're better off not investing in
any products at all since even your home electricity can't be guaranteed and hey.. that would render just about anything in your home useless remember?

As for methods i've no problem with whatever Oleg decides since its up to them, but most likely we'll see a master server for the online play
this time around which automatically will prevent hackers from playing online unless the server binaries gets released to the public and hacked.

[hiro]

The dongle (hardware to plug in) or usb thing won't work. Even software like Maya that costs $3-5K to buy and use, the very day of its new version release, the l33t hax0rz have cracked it by sundown.

Plus if you lose the dongle, then you have to go to support, they have physically mail you one. Overnighting . . . or two day, plus support staff can add up.


The online thing, well that doesn't really fly. One has to look to many grounded ROF fliers in the beginning and that they removed it to see how effective that is.

Also what if you have an intermittent connection *cough*DSL*cough*?


The blizzard idea works because blizzard games have an online component that opens up a whole new realm to the game. But there are hacks around it. And Oleg n crew would have to form a "battle.net" online connection portal to manage the online variant of BOB SOW, which is key to the blizzard idea.

And lots of people here would rather see them developing extras for BOB SOW and patching it versus spending time making a online battlenet portal.

Plus there are lots of people that don't play IL-2 online, they love flying with squad mates, or doing maps / campaigns . . . and since BOB SOW will improve the AI, some would just be content


Very strong securing software usually just locks out legitimate people, and irritates them, whilst the software pirates usually hack n slash their way to victory.


Then there's the unique serial just for that game, but that takes coding and double checking for each and every game shipped . . .


I think the serial in the box should be good enough. Besides given how large the flight sim community is and how good the representation of IL-2 for WW 2 enthusiasts, people will pay money, support the dev team, maybe even buy the game not just once, but twice or more.

[csThor]

The fun thing is that the so called "BS" are the people themselves that surround each other with something they claim to be "their rights", when there is no such thing here..
The developers make the game and they themselves alone have every right in the world to protect their own game/property in any way they see fit no matter how much you twist and turn it.

BS is only the talk of "wannabe pirates" scared that their product would be generated useless 5 years later, but let me enlighten you, we live in 2010 a time when protection is necessary.

Why would you be so worried about whats gonna happen 5 years from now ? If you're really that paranoid maybe you're better off not investing in
any products at all since even your home electricity can't be guaranteed and hey.. that would render just about anything in your home useless remember?

As for methods i've no problem with whatever Oleg decides since its up to them, but most likely we'll see a master server for the online play
this time around which automatically will prevent hackers from playing online unless the server binaries gets released to the public and hacked.

Come off your high horse, zauii. You call me a "wannabe pirate"? Short-sighted guys like you are the reason publishers like Ubisoft are getting away with their DRM BS. If you are so eager to sign away your own rights as PC owner and user (I am not talking about the program, yet) then I really wish you a future in which every game you want to play does cost a montly fee just to show you the true reason for such draconic DRM schemes. It's not about piracy, it's about implementing pay-to-play across the whole scale of gaming even for offline content. Wanna play SoW - North Africa? No problem, just 9,99€ a month. Enter credit card details here. Want to participate in Multiplayer? Upgrade your account to "Gold" for just 14,95 € a month. :roll:

This is the publishers' way of injecting themselves into the distribution process again, to create new ways of accumulating revenue and tying customers to themselves so that they can milk them for all the $ or € they can. This is the reason for such systems, not piracy, not the grossly inflated claims from the suits in the beancounter departments. I have no issues with paying a sensible amount of money to make aircraft types flyable (like RoF does), but I will not grant a game development company or publisher (especially the latter) the right to milk me for marketing data, force me to violate a very fundamental security measure just for playing a game.

[zauii]

Come off your high horse, zauii. You call me a "wannabe pirate"? Short-sighted guys like you are the reason publishers like Ubisoft are getting away with their DRM BS. If you are so eager to sign away your own rights as PC owner and user (I am not talking about the program, yet) then I really wish you a future in which every game you want to play does cost a montly fee just to show you the true reason for such draconic DRM schemes. It's not about piracy, it's about implementing pay-to-play across the whole scale of gaming even for offline content. Wanna play SoW - North Africa? No problem, just 9,99€ a month. Enter credit card details here. Want to participate in Multiplayer? Upgrade your account to "Gold" for just 14,95 € a month. :roll:

This is the publishers' way of injecting themselves into the distribution process again, to create new ways of accumulating revenue and tying customers to themselves so that they can milk them for all the $ or € they can. This is the reason for such systems, not piracy, not the grossly inflated claims from the suits in the beancounter departments. I have no issues with paying a sensible amount of money to make aircraft types flyable (like RoF does), but I will not grant a game development company or publisher (especially the latter) the right to milk me for marketing data, force me to violate a very fundamental security measure just for playing a game.

Right,

First and foremost the simulation market will probably disappear before anything like this even has the slightest chance of succeeding seeing
as it's such a niche within a niche you'd have to look for a game like Call of Duty to find something like this attempted.

And we've yet to see a Call of Duty with pay-per month have we?
Please go ahead and round up all the games that have migrated from a firm model into a pay-per-month milking model at a later stage?

Paranoia is all there is too it, nothing more nothing less and as stated the developers should take every precaution they can to protect their game / property.

If it comes down to a Monthly fee with future games, then you can make up your own mind at the time and just not pay,
I for once wouldn't pay for a fps or simulation per month, if the time comes you show this by not buying and using their products at that time.

Argumentation against DRM / Protection today is just a bunch of paranoia, nothing suggests that SOW or 1C will pursuit a model that is based around a monthly payment.
I feel its kinda equivalent to the current society paranoia that there are cameras everywhere and that the government controls your private life within a 10 year period... pathetic.

However if a model like this would be attempted they would have to come up with something tempting for the customers such as major support, constant updates of content, patches
similar to an MMO, which in the end many people might be completely fine with, if we get enough support , extra content constantly along with community features. Nothing i personally would like
but their not just gonna pop up with a new business model tomorrow and magically hope for customers to accept it.

[csThor]

Are you really that obtuse? Introducing pay-to-play isn't a quick and dirty process, it's slow and will be done step by step because otherwise publishers are afraid to alienate the people and loose income. So they're doing it bit by bit and wait for the users to get used to the latest stage. Or have you taken a look at M$ online services for the XBox? Think that and go one step further ... Cloud computing, no longer purchasing a DVD (or whatever) but a key to access the software running on a remote server. A publisher's wet dream. :rolleyes:

Zauii ... I'm not opposed to anti-piracy measures but these have to work without impeding the use by an honest customer. DRM does not do this job, it's all about limiting the user's rights and artificially injecting the publisher into the process (because in the times of the web the publisher is becoming more and more superfluous to the development process apart from financing it). I have said it before (though not in this thread) but I have nothing against a onetime online verification of my copy, kinda like Windows does after installing it, or even a periodical check (with me deciding if I allow the connection), but being forced to remain connected continuously is a step beyond a threshold I will not make. If this is the future of PC gaming then by all means I'm out of it.

[SG1_Gunkan]

Just an CD KEY to play online and that is the best solution. Perhaps a simple securom or similar and everyone happy.

The quality of SOW:BoB, will surelly generate a lot of money.

[robtek]

I also think a activation like windows would be bearable plus a password protected account for online play where the verification happens at the server of the publisher via the game-server.

[WTE_Galway]

Personally I have bought every release of IL2 and I have spent a lot of time releasing skinpacks and missions just to show support. I would never have done any of this if the game was pay to play or required online activation. My gaming machine is not online. I dislike the new approach to DRM with a passion.

The only reason I do not own Rise of Flight is the insidious DRM it came out with required online activation to play offline. Apparently the next release of RoF will now allow an offline mode. I may actually consider getting the next release of RoF if the DRM issue has been resolved.

Edit:

Actually if a 4.10 IL2 DVD came out with no copy protection I would immediately buy it even though I already have the IL2 1946 DVD and can download patches for free :D


I would also add that there is a THIRD unscrupulous method used by online games such as Evony which is to make the games totally free but sell in-game advantages to people that pay which make the non-payers uncompetitive.

[AKA_Tenn]

i don't mind online activation, i do mind having a limit on the amount of activations i can do... i format my hard drive a lot, i'd hate to have to keep buying new copies just because i had to re-install my game a few times.

also i don't have a credit card, so having in-game items that require one to buy them would be bad.

generally games fail when you have to not only pay for them, but even after you pay for them you find out its not "really" free to play, you still gotta pay even more to actually be competitive (to actually play). the only in-game items that you should be able to purchace are ones that don't effect the gameplay and don't give anyone anywhere an advantage... like skins... or maybe a different reflector sight, that kinda thing... at least for online gameplay...

and the idea where u get a totally useless game for free, but u can pay for addons... just doesn't make sense for a combat flight sim u wanna be able to see all the glory right off the bat, not get shot down and lose all the time in some useless crappy assed plane... that'd make u not wanna buy the game, instead u'd never wanna look at it again.

maybe doing something like Aces high does... (or used to do) where u have a free 8 player game mode, and u can play offline, but u don't get the glory of playing with everyone in the big online campeign unless u pay for it. it would solve the problems for the few and far between people in the places so rural they don't have broadband internet, and also allow for something like a battle.net type lobby.(im talking more like the diablo 1 type battle.net, not the warcraft 3 type one)

[janpitor]

I think you are speaking about rise of flight. If you buy rise of flight, you dont get any crappy planes. As I remember , when I bought it, it was Fokker VII, spad 13 and another two planes I dont remember, because I also bought some others. If you want, you can stay with four planes and will be totally competitive.
Creation of planes needs enormous effort and money, and somebody has to pay for it. It isnt like in il2´s days. The economy has changed a bit. And the complexity of planes just so.


i don't mind online activation, i do mind having a limit on the amount of activations i can do... i format my hard drive a lot, i'd hate to have to keep buying new copies just because i had to re-install my game a few times.

also i don't have a credit card, so having in-game items that require one to buy them would be bad.

generally games fail when you have to not only pay for them, but even after you pay for them you find out its not "really" free to play, you still gotta pay even more to actually be competitive (to actually play). the only in-game items that you should be able to purchace are ones that don't effect the gameplay and don't give anyone anywhere an advantage... like skins... or maybe a different reflector sight, that kinda thing... at least for online gameplay...

and the idea where u get a totally useless game for free, but u can pay for addons... just doesn't make sense for a combat flight sim u wanna be able to see all the glory right off the bat, not get shot down and lose all the time in some useless crappy assed plane... that'd make u not wanna buy the game, instead u'd never wanna look at it again.

maybe doing something like Aces high does... (or used to do) where u have a free 8 player game mode, and u can play offline, but u don't get the glory of playing with everyone in the big online campeign unless u pay for it. it would solve the problems for the few and far between people in the places so rural they don't have broadband internet, and also allow for something like a battle.net type lobby.(im talking more like the diablo 1 type battle.net, not the warcraft 3 type one)

[zauii]

Personally I have bought every release of IL2 and I have spent a lot of time releasing skinpacks and missions just to show support. I would never have done any of this if the game was pay to play or required online activation. My gaming machine is not online. I dislike the new approach to DRM with a passion.

The only reason I do not own Rise of Flight is the insidious DRM it came out with required online activation to play offline. Apparently the next release of RoF will now allow an offline mode. I may actually consider getting the next release of RoF if the DRM issue has been resolved.

Edit:

Actually if a 4.10 IL2 DVD came out with no copy protection I would immediately buy it even though I already have the IL2 1946 DVD and can download patches for free :D


I would also add that there is a THIRD unscrupulous method used by online games such as Evony which is to make the games totally free but sell in-game advantages to people that pay which make the non-payers uncompetitive.
Well it's up to each and everyone, your loss to miss out on RoF or IL2 if you would've chosen to go down that road, can't say that i believe the developers care. If a DRM would stop you from buying a great title, that is kinda sad itself...
I presume if SOW comes out with online activation you're gonna skip it, even after waiting for years for the game? Even if its a great game itself a DRM will simply stop you?
That is kinda sad itself, but yet again who cares..you're the one missing out and the developers have made their call, live with it or don't buy it.

[Baron]

The fun thing is that the so called "BS" are the people themselves that surround each other with something they claim to be "their rights", when there is no such thing here..
The developers make the game and they themselves alone have every right in the world to protect their own game/property in any way they see fit no matter how much you twist and turn it.

BS is only the talk of "wannabe pirates" scared that their product would be generated useless 5 years later, but let me enlighten you, we live in 2010 a time when protection is necessary.

Why would you be so worried about whats gonna happen 5 years from now ? If you're really that paranoid maybe you're better off not investing in
any products at all since even your home electricity can't be guaranteed and hey.. that would render just about anything in your home useless remember?

As for methods i've no problem with whatever Oleg decides since its up to them, but most likely we'll see a master server for the online play
this time around which automatically will prevent hackers from playing online unless the server binaries gets released to the public and hacked.





The funny thing is: The second hand market in used games is a bigger "loss" in revenue than piracy. Of course the developers whant a slice of that cake to.

Are they intitled to? No, not morally nor legally.

The piracy ghost is made up horseshit to give them the "right" to implement any control of an allredy sold item, legal or not. If its not legal they lobby to make it so, and "people" like u make it doable becaus u bye into theire whining about lost revenue when its not even thire buissnes what happens to a product once they sell it.


Once again, do they have a legal leg to stand on? ONLY if we as costumers bye into the garbage.



For fun, name one other company/segment geared towards mainstream consumer who would even get close to getting away with this bs. Cardealerships? Electronics? How about PC`s? Or music?


What so special about game developers?


Edit: Activation key done once when u install a new game is a far cry from constant internet connection. As far as iv read and heard constant internet connection to be able to play a game u bought, offline or online, isnt even legal when push comes to shove.

[janpitor]

When you buy the game, you know about the way of protection. You dont want the protection, you dont have to buy. What is not legal about it?

I dont say it is good to be online all the time. I like the way it is now in rof, where after the first online login, you can login offline for offline play and the statistics will be updated online after the next online login. So for offline you dont have to be permanently connected. But I will buy SOW whatsoever because it will be the ultimate WW2 sim.



The funny thing is: The second hand market in used games is a bigger "loss" in revenue than piracy. Of course the developers whant a slice of that cake to.

Are they intitled to? No, not morally nor legally.

The piracy ghost is made up horseshit to give them the "right" to implement any control of an allredy sold item, legal or not. If its not legal they lobby to make it so, and "people" like u make it doable becaus u bye into theire whining about lost revenue when its not even thire buissnes what happens to a product once they sell it.


Once again, do they have a legal leg to stand on? ONLY if we as costumers bye into the garbage.



For fun, name one other company/segment geared towards mainstream consumer who would even get close to getting away with this bs. Cardealerships? Electronics? How about PC`s? Or music?


What so special about game developers?


Edit: Activation key done once when u install a new game is a far cry from constant internet connection. As far as iv read and heard constant internet connection to be able to play a game u bought, offline or online, isnt even legal when push comes to shove.

[zauii]

As far as iv read and heard constant internet connection to be able to play a game u bought, offline or online, isnt even legal when push comes to shove.

It's as legal as you being alive. Besides you agree to any terms of any game developer when you buy and use their products, end of story.

As for the piracy ghost, sure some developers exaggerate and/or exploit the problem , in a sense that if their game fails they blame piracy. Still it doesn't change the fact that even if you develop a good game and skip DRM people will still pirate it.
These so called "trustworthy pirates" which claim that they buy the games if it doesn't have DRM is just pure bullshit, any game gets pirate even the good ones, and looking at statistics the good games gets pirated even more.

Even if you can't blame a failed game on piracy, it's obviously a problem, and why in the world should i be ignored? It's their product they've spent time of their life developing... yes they've every right to protect it as much as they want.
I mean fine absolutely you're not forced to buy the game upon release, its all your choice and if you chose not to buy great, but if you chose to pirate/steal instead, that just speaks for itself about who lacks some moral judgment.

[csThor]

zauii ... It's simple business logic, first-year fundamental in fact, but it bears repetition as Ubisoft and EA have forgotten it. They want me to buy their product so they have to make an offer I can't resist. That kind of DRM sours any deal for me so if any publisher wants me to spend my hard-earned cash on their game they have to think hard before they install such draconic and (to me) inacceptable hurdles and treat me as potential criminal. If they think they can ... Well, my life doesn't evolve around PC gaming. I can live without buying new PC games (Il-2 works perfectly, doesn't it?) but I doubt publishers can live for long without the money many many people used to spend on their products (and now abstain because of DRM). It'll take some time for the message to find its way into the upper echelons (and I wish it would travel faster because everyone should boycot such business policies, but then I'm such an idealist at times ;) ) but I hope all the bean counters who place their hopes on that particular system trip and fall over so hard they need a new nose to replace the crushed old one.

I've said my part ... And now we switch back to our regular program. :mrgreen:

[Baron]

It's as legal as you being alive. Besides you agree to any terms of any game developer when you buy and use their products, end of story.

As for the piracy ghost, sure some developers exaggerate and/or exploit the problem , in a sense that if their game fails they blame piracy. Still it doesn't change the fact that even if you develop a good game and skip DRM people will still pirate it.
These so called "trustworthy pirates" which claim that they buy the games if it doesn't have DRM is just pure bullshit, any game gets pirate even the good ones, and looking at statistics the good games gets pirated even more.

Even if you can't blame a failed game on piracy, it's obviously a problem, and why in the world should i be ignored? It's their product they've spent time of their life developing... yes they've every right to protect it as much as they want.
I mean fine absolutely you're not forced to buy the game upon release, its all your choice and if you chose not to buy great, but if you chose to pirate/steal instead, that just speaks for itself about who lacks some moral judgment.


I agree with u regarding piracy, but they arnt focusing on "pirates", are they? There are heaps of online games that u cant play unless u have a legit copy of the game so why this metod?

I dont know how the rules goes where u live, but here, u buy it, u own it. Unless it clearly states u only lease it that is. (thats where the legal issues comes in as i understand it)


And i wouldnt be suprised if RoF lost 50% or more in sales due to the always connected thing (among other things, dont get me started :)) sales that wont come back even though they removed it now. Why? Because it pisses people off, simple as that.

Bottom line is:Its all about most money for as long as possible fo the least amount of work. Nothing more.


The dicision game developers have to make now is: Do we whant to loose "sure" buy`s (costumers getting peewed of) or do we wanna loose an imaginary buy? (imaginary losses/figures due to piracy) The choise doesnt seem to difficoult, does it? Unless money blinds u.

[zauii]

zauii ... It's simple business logic, first-year fundamental in fact, but it bears repetition as Ubisoft and EA have forgotten it. They want me to buy their product so they have to make an offer I can't resist. That kind of DRM sours any deal for me so if any publisher wants me to spend my hard-earned cash on their game they have to think hard before they install such draconic and (to me) inacceptable hurdles and treat me as potential criminal. If they think they can ... Well, my life doesn't evolve around PC gaming. I can live without buying new PC games (Il-2 works perfectly, doesn't it?) but I doubt publishers can live for long without the money many many people used to spend on their products (and now abstain because of DRM). It'll take some time for the message to find its way into the upper echelons (and I wish it would travel faster because everyone should boycot such business policies, but then I'm such an idealist at times ;) ) but I hope all the bean counters who place their hopes on that particular system trip and fall over so hard they need a new nose to replace the crushed old one.

I've said my part ... And now we switch back to our regular program. :mrgreen:

In the end its as simple as you care about it(DRM) whilst i don't.
You are willing to pass a great product if it has a shitty DRM, i am not.

That's the bottom line of our personal opinions :)

That said i am still not a customer who would buy a pay-per-month fee, but heck RoF didn't have a pay-per-month fee and neither is SoW
as far as we know so i personally don't see a problem.(my point of view) Having SecureRom , Constant Internet Connection with more requirements
have nothing to do with pay-per-month models or equivalent fantasies and i am totally fine with these kinda solutions, besides i don't really see buying a game as a life investment.

[the Dutchman]

It just feels like i have to ask permission to the developers every time i want to use something i've already payed for,imagine having to ask permission to the manufacturer everytime you want to use your car...........i know,you can't download a car...............not yet!:grin:

[robtek]

The bottom line, as you said zauii, is. That people like you, as the picture your comments are painting, are the wet dream of every politician or revenue oriented businesses.
To sell ones future for a short or intermediate gain.
Dont understand me wrong, this isn't meant as a personal attack!
You are just here now and represent the people without a social consience.
"It works for me, who cares about the people which have problems with it"
Nobody says everybody has to be as Mother Theresa, but building a foundation for such a DRM model with all the negative possibilities and no gain for the customer or the programmer, hell, everybody, with at least a little bit consience left, should oppose it.
To repeat it again: This DRM Model doesn't work! It gets hacked as fast as any other at this time. The only people who are inconvenienced are the regular, paying customers.
Sorry, to much wine, i start babbling, but then again in vino veritas :-D

[zauii]

The bottom line, as you said zauii, is. That people like you, as the picture your comments are painting, are the wet dream of every politician or revenue oriented businesses.
To sell ones future for a short or intermediate gain.
Dont understand me wrong, this isn't meant as a personal attack!
You are just here now and represent the people without a social consience.
"It works for me, who cares about the people which have problems with it"
Nobody says everybody has to be as Mother Theresa, but building a foundation for such a DRM model with all the
negative possibilities and no gain for the customer or the programmer, hell, everybody, with at least a little bit consience left, should oppose it.

To repeat it again: This DRM Model doesn't work! It gets hacked as fast as any other at this time. The only people who are inconvenienced are the regular, paying customers.
Sorry, to much wine, i start babbling, but then again in vino veritas :-D

No offense taken,

Anyway

Well i am not gonna miss out on great products because of the DRM as
long as the DRM is not unreasonable , say a pay-per-month for an FPS.

I've never paid for an MMO or Pay-Per-Month in my life so to answer your
statement i am in no way without a social conciseness for these models.
I am simply willing to accept it as long as it's on reasonable terms and a constant
internet connection requirement is defiantly okay with me, especially in 2010 with all the piracy.

We do live in 2010 and not 1999 anymore where CD-KEY's were written on the
back of the actual boxes and piracy was just about minimal online.

Anyway why don't you go ahead and list all the games that we should
boycott to support the great foundation of none-DRM's? Don't be so paranoid.

I am in no way a company's wet dream , i don't fall for cheap products neither do i buy
DLC or care about skins or any other consolified crap with the last generation.
I just don't see how you even can make that connection simply because i am willing
to accept some types of DRM's.

There is no indication that SOW will use any pay-per month model , if it requires a online activation
or a constant stream so be it, it benefits the company in terms of less piracy, and it doesn't hurt the
customers in any way , unless you want to start thinking in all the possible scenarios.

I don't generally think of all the possible ways i could die on every time i step outside my house..

It's a 50 $ investment, again it's not a car or a house. Support the companies for their hard work instead.
Some people just don't get it until they've been in the business themselves :)

[robtek]

If it would relly help against piracy, i would cry out a LITTLE less!
It does hurt the (possible) customers.
And, yes ,i believe SoW will not use this crap.
And SoW will be, as i hope, a investment of very much of my spare time in the future.

[WTE_Galway]

Well it's up to each and everyone, your loss to miss out on RoF or IL2 if you would've chosen to go down that road, can't say that i believe the developers care. If a DRM would stop you from buying a great title, that is kinda sad itself...
I presume if SOW comes out with online activation you're gonna skip it, even after waiting for years for the game? Even if its a great game itself a DRM will simply stop you?
That is kinda sad itself, but yet again who cares..you're the one missing out and the developers have made their call, live with it or don't buy it.

haha you miss the point entirely :D

I am not throwing some big tantrum refusing to buy games with a DRM hoping the publishers take notice.

The DRM just makes those games too much hassle for me to actually play and so I don't bother.

This is particularly the case with something like a Flight Simulators where my main interest is creating historical skins, missions and possibly maps and aircraft. Flying I prefer to do real time.

In the end it is far easier to go and find a game with no DRM whatsoever ( "Sins of a Solar Empire" comes to mind with no copy protection but one of the biggest selling RTS of 2008/2009) and play that instead.

[zauii]

If it would relly help against piracy, i would cry out a LITTLE less!
It does hurt the (possible) customers.
And, yes ,i believe SoW will not use this crap.
And SoW will be, as i hope, a investment of very much of my spare time in the future.

No it doesn't hurt anyone, it prevents people that doesn't have broadband to stay online/connected that's all. Again it's 2010 where you find internet in just about every second home, of any modern society.
How your spare time connects & is relevant with what DRM the game uses i've no idea but sure whatever.. lol.

[Bobb4]

Who has said SOW will have an always on drm?
My understand of everything I have read is that the major DRM will be the DLC.
Has there been any official news otherwise? :rolleyes:

[Bobb4]

Again it's 2010 where you find internet in every second home, of any modern society.
How your spare time connects with what DRM the game uses i've no idea but sure whatever.. lol.
Believe it or not but the entire world does not have 24/7 internet conectivity.
Also for someone connected 24/7 please update your sig? Rise of flight and Arma 2 were released ages ago :grin:

[zauii]

Believe it or not but the entire world does not have 24/7 internet conectivity.
Also for someone connected 24/7 please update your sig? Rise of flight and Arma 2 were released ages ago :grin:

Which was exactly why i said about every 2nd home in a modern society :)
Anyway yes i am aware of my Sig state lol, been mentioned before just haven't
got around to changing it. ;)

No btw i don't belive SoW will have any DRM that requires a constant stream, we
were just discussing possible DRM's of the future, but we'll see eventually.

[Bobb4]

Which was exactly why i said about every 2nd home in a modern society :)
Anyway yes i am aware of my Sig state lol, been mentioned before just haven't
got around to changing it. ;)

No btw i don't belive SoW will have any DRM that requires a constant stream, we
were just discussing possible DRM's of the future, but we'll see eventually.

Srry, I was just bored, sitting waiting for the update :)

[Baron]

Alienating a huuge chunk of your costumer base (50% is not a unresenble figure going by debates on internet about this) makes no buissnes sence what so ever.

Personally, i would fire the dude that came up with the idea, strickly looking from a buisness stand point (no personal oppinion involved).

Or bring him up on charges of sabotaging my company :)

[zauii]

Alienating a huuge chunk of your costumer base (50% is not a unresenble figure going by debates on internet about this) makes no buissnes sence what so ever.

Personally, i would fire the dude that came up with the idea, strickly looking from a buisness stand point (no personal oppinion involved).

Or bring him up on charges of sabotaging my company :)

It's all relative to the game(s) in question.
Works just fine for tons of games out there.

True the simulation market has a lot of offline only customers,
but eventually that will have to change as well, just as anything
technology progresses and time moves on and everything can't stay the
same forever.

[WTE_Galway]

True the simulation market has a lot of offline only customers,
but eventually that will have to change as well, just as anything
technology progresses and time moves on and everything can't stay the
same forever.

Not really.

Moving to online play is not necessarily progress any more than most game publishers moving to the console platform is progress.

Online dogfight servers tend to be full of immature people out to inflate their ego's and the online chats are rife with trolling and schoolboy bully tactics. Further some even think they are the "elite" of the sim community and can demand all sorts of things from publishers based on their online activity.

I haven't played online since 2004 and even then I mainly played squad co-ops and virtual wars. My squad were great guys but their were too many idiots out there.

To be truly successful online a simulation would need to stop being a simulation and become much more a game. To appeal to a broader market you would need to "dumb things down" a bit as your average punter does not appreciate a big learning curve and wants to be instantly a "awesome uber 1337 hero". You also would need to forget historical accuracy and adjust opposing aircraft and weapons to achieve fair game balance. You would also need to reward people for persistently logging in and also for spending money.

In short you would need to throw out the ideal of being a "simulation" as unachievable and create what is basically a realistic looking aerial version of Halo :D

It would probably be fun and make lots of money, but not my cup of tea.

[Wolkenbeisser]

Four of five times a year we (our squadron, with 12 pilots) have great LAN-parties with IL-2. It is always nice to meet the pilots personally with enough time to chat and fly. And on these occasions we always throw tons of meat on the grill and drink some beers.

During these events nothing bothers us - no phonecalls, no want-to-go-shopping-girls, no neighbours that need help etc. :-) - only pilots and their machines. I'm always looking forward to those event. They are just cool and relaxing.

I hope these LAN-Parties are not doomed to die (for SoW BOB) due to necessary connection to the internet... (Oleg, please don't let this happen)

[Blackdog_kt]

in the end, the best way to do it would be like Blizzard does with battle.net, the only way to log in to play online is with a valid CD key, and playing offline u can do whatever u want with a fake one... because this game will really shine online, i think most people will buy it, even if they could play it offline for free. also they could make any updates/expantions require a valid CD key that needs to be verified by logging into the online mode, so that way those that wanna play offline with a fake key still can, but those with the real key get their updates and expantions.


This is a brilliant solution.

A person who's not interested in receiving updates is obviously not a big fan of the title. That means no matter how hard the DRM is, this is the kind of person that would never ever buy the game. So, even if he pirates it, he will probably play a few missions and uninstall it. This is not a lost sale.

A lost sale is a person who uses an illegal copy but is also interested enough to keep playing the game, a person who wants updates and multiplayer. This is the kind of person that you can "force" to buy the game. How do you do that? You tie the added value features of the game that he wants to a valid cd-key.

I think that's the best compromise, creating an account and then using it to log in to the verification service only once. After the installation for example, you need to go online ONCE, enter your cd-key and create an account. One key can be used to create only one account, but that account can be transferred among PCs. So, if you switch PCs you just log in with your account username and password that is already activated. This means that the cd-key and the account are separate things. The cd-key enables creation of the account, but the account is "roaming", ie can be used on a separate system.

So, how do we prevent a situation where one could log in with a validated account on all his friends's PCs so that they can play the game without buying it? Again, tie only the online features to the online service. Every time there is an update you will have to go online to download it anyway. Every time you want to do multiplayer, you will have to go online. So, everytime the player wants to go online, check his account.

Instead of forcing the buyer to be online all the time, you can just check his installed copy for authenticity whenever he WANTS to go online.

That's it, no constant connectivity, no limited activations/deactivations. Sure, you'll have some people who are playing single player without having bought the game, it's just that they are non-interested guys who are playing version 1.1 when the game is at 2.3, because you'd need to login with your account that you created with your cd-key whenever you wanted to apply a patch. This is a small price to pay, considering they wouldn't buy it no matter what, because it keeps the important guys happy...the ones who DO in fact buy the game. So, what's smart business sense? To cater to the customer, or to annoy the customer in order to spite someone who will never give you money?

As for DRM in general, i agree that it's mostly an effort to limit the 2nd hand market. Too bad, because it's borderline illegal. The EULAs that you click "i agree" before playing the game? They don't stand a chance against consumer law in most of Europe. So what if i click that? I bought something, i need it to work and it's mine to give away or resell. Why should software publishers be different than the manufacturers of other high-tech products?

Could you imagine a Hi-Fi system that tells you "to use this system you will only play this list of artists on it"? Would you do it, or would you say "yes, i agree" and then go ahead to play the music that you prefer? What if the maker of said Hi-Fi forced you to connect it to your router, so that it can check what kind of music you play? What if it checked if you replaced the speakers with a set from a competing company? What if it prevented you from using it from a different IP, so that you couldn't sell or donate it to someone else? And finally, what if you did one or more of the above and the Hi-Fi system decided "no more music for you"? What would happen next? Well, a riot outside the company's office most likely.

Games where the online component works well and is a good compromise are ironically the pay-to-play MMO style games. Why? Because the persistent world, the massive content and the large amount of players to compete with is actually a good trade-off for the monthly subscription and the risk of network downtime. In plain words, the online component is not simply added restriction at worst or added value at best, it is the game itself. This obviously doesn't fly for games with a single player component.

Finally, DRM kills impulse buying and this might mean your game will miss the train to mass appeal. Example, RoF. I wanted to get it, i got p*ssed off by their initial stubborness about the DRM and i didn't buy it. The price was dropping, special offers came up, but i still didn't buy it even when i could buy a digital download copy for a mere 18 Euros, thanks to favorable exchange rates. Why? Because buying it would be like i'm saying "it's ok to screw me, your customer, over with excessively restrictive DRM". So, each week i'd spend that money on a few extra beers.
After quite some months they removed it (close to a year, was it?). I still don't have RoF, because while waiting for them to remove that stupid system i lost all of my excitement. The fact that all of the title's shortcomings were getting aired in the meantime also didn't help.

If RoF didn't have that DRM at launch, i would have bought it because i didn't know about the rest of the things that would annouy me. However, by checking various forums to see if they were going to change their DRM i came across other kinds of discussions that highlighted other problems, like the "empty" battlefields and the limited visibility/rendering bubble, things that seemed like hasty optimizations for a physics engine that had trouble managing more than a handful of units. It's been what, more than a year since the release of RoF and it hasn't properly got into geat yet because of this thing, killing the potential buyer's impulse.

Imagine if more people had picked it up on impulse. The whinning about the title's flaws would be even bigger, but the company would have the extra money to hire a few extra people and work on them...the game would get better at a faster rate, they would sell even more copies and everyone would be at a better position.

I'd hazzard a guess that the amount of people flying IL2 exclusively is still greater than the amount of people who fly RoF exclusively. That doesn't mean it's bad, or that it hasn't improved or that people shouldn't enjoy it. It just means it's a small, isolated "gentlemen's little club" that missed it's timing due to bad marketing decisions.
Their window of opportunity was from the end of IL2's life to the release of SoW, they p*ssed off a lot of their fans with their DRM and as a result it remained a low circulation title.

In fact, SH5's case was something similar, with a customer rights union in one of the Scandinavian countries threatening to take the case to court because Ubi couldn't guarantee the uptime of their validation servers.

Thing is, DRM like that only works well for shooters or other games that either

a) have a short story arc
b) have limited replay value or
c) both of the above

Why? Because most people don't care if Modern Warfare 2 will be playable in 5 years, in that time span they will have gone through an equal amount of Moden Warfare sequels, plus a bunch more from different series. That's why their boycott didn't work and they all rushed out and bought it despite saying otherwise. They don't lose too much by accepting the poor state of a game that takes 3-4 evenings to beat and will occupy you for a couple of months in multi.

However, in games that have a high replay value and newer game engines take longer to develop, people are interested about long term viability and functionality.