Press Ministry Requests $17M for 1C's Patriotic Computer Game

[Viking]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/press-ministry-requests-17m-for-1cs-patriotic-computer-game/405448.html

Software company 1C is asking the state for 500 million rubles ($16.8 million) to create a computer game simulator that will educate youth in patriotism, modernize the economy and rebuff those trying to falsify history.

The Communications and Press Ministry and 1C have jointly prepared a proposal for the creation of a series of military game simulators, a document that was prepared for a meeting of the presidential commission for modernizing the economy on April 29, a ministry official said. It wasn't presented, but the issue was discussed, he said, adding that 1C chief executive Boris Nuraliyev had demonstrated an aviation simulator to President Dmitry Medvedev.

The project's cost is 720 million rubles, according to the presentation. The Communications and Press Ministry is asking for 500 million rubles from the government, while 1C will come up with 200 million rubles and 20 million rubles will come from the Khanty-Mansiisk autonomous district, which is an initiator of the project, the official said.

The development of the core of the simulator will cost $5 million to $10 million, said Sergei Orlovsky, founder of Nival Network. Each game based on that engine will run an additional $1 million to $2 million.

The project needs state financing because it aims to stimulate high-tech production and create a product for export, while at the same time using the groundwork laid by the project to create a simulator for teaching pilots.

The goal of the project is to foster a sense of patriotism in children and shut out falsifications of history, the ministry official said. The project could be approved at the next modernization commission meeting, which will be dedicated to the development of Russian video games, said an official close to the leadership of the presidential commission.

The parameters of the project and state support are still being worked out, said an official in the presidential administration. The project is now being finalized, the ministry official said.

The project is interesting, but it is unclear whether state support is needed, presidential aide Arkady Dvorkovich said.

The project will become profitable within four years, its authors said. Sales are projected at 10 million copies, and the share of Russian games on the domestic market will grow 10 percent.

The secret to the project's success is 1C's experience in developing training simulators. The company's Il-2 Shturmovik game is one of the 25 best games ever, according to Imagine Games Network. It has been translated into 11 languages, and 1.3 million copies have been sold.

Representatives for 1C declined to comment.

[Antoninus]

Interesting. I guess there is no need for Oleg now to release SOW this year and a lot more red planes are overmodelled debates in future.

[Novotny]

Perhaps Oleg is running out of money; perhaps they want the West to better understand Russia's involvement in the 2nd World War. Perhaps both?

Either way, I hope they are successful. regardless of your politics, Russia has not been given it's due appreciation for stopping Nazi Germany.

edit:: Ooh, I realise how contentious this is going to become. Let me say frankly: without Russia fighting Nazi Germany, I would most likely be speaking German now. Whether or not I agree with current or past politics, I am grateful to those Russians who fought Hitler, and kept fighting him, allowing a second front to develop.

So, basically, I think the world should recognise this effort a little bit more. Whatever political feeling you may have, no-one wanted the Nazis. And Russia suffered most opposing them. This reduced the burden on other countries, allowing them more ability to attack, as opposed to merely defending, as they were doing before. Russia absorbed the Nazi war-machine.

Again: no politics: simply put, Russia suffered and endured so much in defeating the Nazis, but you'd think that my nation and a few others were the only ones that put some effort in, if you listened to the media.

[AndyJWest]

I'd rather see another report on this, or even better a response from 1C:Maddox, before commenting. It is not entirely clear who exactly is proposing what, and I wonder if a journalist has been using a bit of poetic license here.

As for 'the falsification of history' I've no doubt that IL-2 has already done something to counteract that.

[csThor]

The only problem I see with this development is that modern Russia itself is not making any effort to go over its archives and throw out the most obvious Stalinist distortions or at least mark them as such. That's a pity. :(

So it remains to be seen what this "patriotism" thing will be about and how it'll be represented.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Interesting, and certainly a great strategy.

Why on Earth will children read some stupid school book when they can experience and see it themselves? How were the battles, how the planes performed, the tactics and everything else. For sure it'll raise interest in history among the younger folks, which is something needed to every country.

And csThor, it's quite obvious that it's being looked at - just look at the Katyn incident, for instance.

[csThor]

No, not that. I mean the actual depiction and recordings of the WW2 combat operations. I vividly remember a TV documentation made by a german camera team in advance of the 60-year anniversary of the end of WW2 in Europe in 2005. They interviewed a lot of people, among them a retired Colonel who had been part of a team of Red Army historians who'd gone over the records for a new "definite" work on the Battle of Kursk in the 1980s and this Colonel complained that modern Russia apparently did not want to honor its veterans by producing an accurate picture of the war's events. He said that he'd offered his services since he knew that the numbers and events recorded were often made up on behalf of Stalin and did not reflect what really happened but he was told to STFU in no uncertain terms. At that time a certain Vladimir Putin was residing in the Kreml ... so the question about what this "patriotic thing" means is very much justified.

[Feuerfalke]

The only problem I see with this development is that modern Russia itself is not making any effort to go over its archives and throw out the most obvious Stalinist distortions or at least mark them as such. That's a pity. :(

So it remains to be seen what this "patriotism" thing will be about and how it'll be represented.

That's not entirely true. In the past weeks a lot of things have changed concerning this specific topic. It seems that Polands tragic loss in the end has at least started a change e.g. in regarding things that happened on the eastern front. Documents are opened and reports released to the public, discussions are started.
Looking at what IL2 has done for the interest in the eastern front, I have no doubt that historic missions and contents in SoW can serve as an ambassador for more than that.

In either case, the petition is just.

On a personal note: I loved this part:
The project is now being finalized

[Avimimus]

Interesting. I guess there is no need for Oleg now to release SOW this year and a lot more red planes are overmodelled debates in future.

Remember how everyone said the Russian airplanes were overmodelled compared to the German? Then Oleg pointed out that his last name was British. Then people started comparing the Spitfire and the P-51...

Good old days...

[Feuerfalke]

LOL, true.

Well, overmodeled was a wrong term anyway. IMHO most of the "superpowers" or "crippled features" of planes simply come from an explosive combination of things you simply can't model due to engine or data limitations and completely overexagerated user expectancies.

[nearmiss]

A historically accurate portrayal of the Eastern Front war from 1939 to the end would be a horror story beyond belief.

[Feuerfalke]

All fronts would.

[nearmiss]

An excellent book on the German ordeal on the Eastern Front

"Fighting in Hell" edited by Peter G. Tsouras

[baronWastelan]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/press-ministry-requests-17m-for-1cs-patriotic-computer-game/405448.html

Software company 1C is asking the state for 500 million rubles ($16.8 million) to create a computer game simulator that will educate youth in patriotism, modernize the economy and rebuff those trying to falsify history.

The Communications and Press Ministry and 1C have jointly prepared a proposal for the creation of a series of military game simulators, a document that was prepared for a meeting of the presidential commission for modernizing the economy on April 29, a ministry official said. It wasn't presented, but the issue was discussed, he said, adding that 1C chief executive Boris Nuraliyev had demonstrated an aviation simulator to President Dmitry Medvedev.

The project's cost is 720 million rubles, according to the presentation. The Communications and Press Ministry is asking for 500 million rubles from the government, while 1C will come up with 200 million rubles and 20 million rubles will come from the Khanty-Mansiisk autonomous district, which is an initiator of the project, the official said.

The development of the core of the simulator will cost $5 million to $10 million, said Sergei Orlovsky, founder of Nival Network. Each game based on that engine will run an additional $1 million to $2 million.

The project needs state financing because it aims to stimulate high-tech production and create a product for export, while at the same time using the groundwork laid by the project to create a simulator for teaching pilots.

The goal of the project is to foster a sense of patriotism in children and shut out falsifications of history, the ministry official said. The project could be approved at the next modernization commission meeting, which will be dedicated to the development of Russian video games, said an official close to the leadership of the presidential commission.

The parameters of the project and state support are still being worked out, said an official in the presidential administration. The project is now being finalized, the ministry official said.

The project is interesting, but it is unclear whether state support is needed, presidential aide Arkady Dvorkovich said.

The project will become profitable within four years, its authors said. Sales are projected at 10 million copies, and the share of Russian games on the domestic market will grow 10 percent.

The secret to the project's success is 1C's experience in developing training simulators. The company's Il-2 Shturmovik game is one of the 25 best games ever, according to Imagine Games Network. It has been translated into 11 languages, and 1.3 million copies have been sold.

Representatives for 1C declined to comment.

Pretty much how the B-52s got started.

[fireflyerz]

Top band....:mrgreen:

[SlipBall]

This is the program that I referred to here:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=14577&page=4

I often wondered if IL2 was developed using any of these government funds:grin:

[Romanator21]

Why are we assuming this means SoW BoB? 1C makes loads of historical combat games, most of which actually pertain to the Eastern Front. I don't know if a sim on the BoB is going to instill patriotism in Russians. Keep in mind that if 1C is making a game, it doesn't mean that it's Oleg's. ;)

[Viking]

Its not necessarily BoB but I seriously doubt that the proposed “series of simulations” would bypass BoB with the worldwide record that Oleg´s Il-2 Sthurmovik have.

I hope that the proposal will get trough as there is only positive benefits for all involved.
One aspect is already explained in the article, educating the nation and the world in order to correct the cold war western view of the war effort of the CCCP and placing the nation Russia in its rightful place as a superpower in the world, and off course giving the citizens the true pride of their history.

The computer-tech spin-offs for Russia will be many. Heightened computer use and sale will enhance the market for developing hard- and software domestically, reinforcing the GNP and helping the export. Creating work for higher educated people and a motivation to get that education will create more schools and a need for educated teachers’ etc. etc!

So I am sure the state will get its money back with interest.

[Mango]

Let's not forget that Storm of War is not only for the Battle of Britain.

It seems to me it that a new "series of military game simulators" would probably be based on the Storm of War engine... especially after all this talk of flushing it out into a land and sea sim. :grin::grin:

[wannabetheace]

Let's not forget that Storm of War is not only for the Battle of Britain.

It seems to me it that a new "series of military game simulators" would probably be based on the Storm of War engine... especially after all this talk of flushing it out into a land and sea sim. :grin::grin:

if this project is approved my dream of getting all in one sim will come true after all :)

[Blackdog_kt]

I think it's a good move. Simulators are complicated, take a lot of time, effort and money to develop and the people who fly them are only a small part of the gamer population. This means that as PCs get more powerful and we expect more features, every kind of game gradually becomes more expensive.

The difference is that most popular gaming genres can rely on their massive marketing appeal, even if they ship with short story arcs and then charge for sequels or DLC every few weeks/months. Well, you can't do that in a simulator because not only we're a cranky bunch, but it is also fundamental to have a more or less complete depiction of the theater in question, otherwise it defeats the whole purpose of the game . So, we either settle for less or the developers have to get more money to finance the whole deal. On the other hand, charging more for flight sims might shrink the amount of sales even more. So, something's got to give, but what will it be?

Now, look at Eagle Dynamics. They make simulators for the military, then they use that money to fund simulators for mass consumption that they sell at reasonable prices. The state pays a lot because it actually saves money from aircraft maintenance and jet fuel in training pilots, then that money becomes DCS Black Shark.

I think it's something like that, a government sponsorship with a certain aim (maybe not training real world military, but teaching the citizens about their history) that turns into a steadier cash flow for 1c, so that they can keep working on all the things we ask for here. Good move, everyone wins.

[baronWastelan]

If it wasn't for Hitler, Russia would now be known as nothing other than a failed repressive empire. In the 21st century, what does Russia have to offer the rest of the world, other than cheap weapons: computer war games, made with imported computer technology. Russia is doing nothing to deserve status of superpower.

[Viking]

The information is easy available for the one that seeks it.
But that discussion doesn’t belong in this thread or in this forum.

[koivis]

If it wasn't for Hitler, Russia would now be known as nothing other than a failed repressive empire. In the 21st century, what does Russia have to offer the rest of the world, other than cheap weapons: computer war games, made with imported computer technology. Russia is doing nothing to deserve status of superpower.

I'm not Russian, but if I were I would propably take this comment as an insult. Besides, I'm 100% sure that the economy of Europe would be not like it is today without the huge amounts of energy and materials imported from Russia.

And yes, that comment (or the whole discussion about "what Russia has to offer") has nothing to do about the subject of this thread.

[6S.Manu]

I'm always scared by the word "patriotism". :(

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Well, you do remember Russia is among the top when it comes to oil, gas and minerals as a whole, right?

And, on the "party-guy" side, it has quality vodka. Beat that, West! :mrgreen:

[RCAF_FB_Orville]

Yep Manu, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

-Samuel Johnson

That is not to say being proud of your Nation, traditions and Heritage is not a good thing....it is and I for one certainly am. But when carried to Jingoistic and Hyper-Nationalistic levels can be a very worrying thing indeed.

Observe the rise of the far right in Russia as well as Europe and even Britain and the US have their fascist elements. Maybe the intent is to remind the Russian people what they so bravely stood against and suffered immensely for, more than any other allied nation. For that, Russia will always have my respect.

[Avimimus]

If it wasn't for Hitler, Russia would now be known as nothing other than a failed repressive empire. In the 21st century, what does Russia have to offer the rest of the world, other than cheap weapons: computer war games, made with imported computer technology. Russia is doing nothing to deserve status of superpower.

What do you have to do to get the status of a superpower? Usually act like a jerk, make a mess of other countries and then address them in a condescending way (and get away with it by having more guns). IMHO, the United States, Great Britain and Russia have all been superpowers at some point or another ;)

I have a great deal of respect for the richness and depth of Russian culture. Compared to the most powerful 18th century Tsars the Soviet Union was a better place to live (although it is unfortunate that it returned to the death penalty etc.)

Regarding the wargames - flight simulators have been abandoned in North America and Western Europe. Upper level management and a focus on short-term profitability has done them in. It is only TK/Thirdwire and the Russian firms such as Maddox Games and Eagle Dynamics who have kept going and breathed new life into the genre.

I have nothing but respect for what Oleg Maddox has done - not just in helping communicate Great Patriotic War history to a new generation of young people - but also in helping to do the same for Commonwealth history (as we can't seem to do it properly ourselves and the American publishers were generally oblivious when they existed).

@baronWastelan: Could you please grow up and stop fighting the cold war - said in the most humble and respectful tone

[Avimimus]

I'm always scared by the word "patriotism". :(

Me too - and think: Some North Americans seem to believe it is something different from "European" nationalism. Thankfully, I come from a country where nationalism in any form is largely not allowed, looked down upon or suppressed.

[tagTaken2]

I lik to trol.

Faster to read than original.

[6S.Manu]

Maybe the intent is to remind the Russian people what they so bravely stood against and suffered immensely for, more than any other allied nation. For that, Russia will always have my respect.

Of course... but I don't respect Russia for that.. I only respect the people living in Russia in those times.

Here in Italy I listen many guys proud of our past (the Roman Empire, the Renaissance ect...) but I keep thinking that WE people of the present have not done anything to be proud of. Conversely today's Italy is a s**t country, ruled by s**t politics (probably only the 10% of them are honest) and populated by s**t people stabbing each other for their own profit.

So I see humanity as a bunch of single human beings: there are no cities, there are no countries.. there are "you" and me: I respect you for that you have to say, not for the place you live.

[katdogfizzow]

I must say this game has me more interested in history than ever before. After flying around in these awesome IL2 planes, I have a new found respect for history's pilots. There is no doubt these games can inspire you to pick up books for research and understanding.

From my own American standpoint, you don't get a real appreciation for some of history's battles and sacrifices until you have flown a simulation in a F4F against 100 enemy planes in formation over Midway or Dive-bombed the Akagi though a hail of flak and zeros....or flown over the English channel in a Hurricane against waves of 110s and 109s ....

Unlike some books or movies, there's no romanticism from the victors up in the simulator. You can clearly experience the epic power of the Luftwaffe or the Japanese as the war played out and really appreciate the skill, persistence and SACRIFICE it took to defeat these powers.

You can see by the comments in this thread that people need to learn and understand their history. If simulators let you walk the shoes of those involved, one hopes you come away from the experience with a new respect and understanding for those involved. It certainly worked for me.

Much respect

Thanks Oleg :grin:

[Blackdog_kt]

What do you have to do to get the status of a superpower? Usually act like a jerk, make a mess of other countries and then address them in a condescending way (and get away with it by having more guns). IMHO, the United States, Great Britain and Russia have all been superpowers at some point or another ;)


So true :D

[bugmenot]

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the "patriotism" and "falsifications of history" part.

I'm sure Putin Jugend crowd would love a game like that nevertheless.

[dduff442]

Well I hear Burnt by the Sun 2 was a huge flop in Russian cinemas recently. The public aren't too enthusiastic about anything too official in the cultural realm.

Just about every industrialised country has incentives and tax breaks for cultural works of different sorts. The press release at the top of the thread could easily be a grant application to the film board of any number of countries. I did smile a bit at 'falsifiers of history'. When did they stop being 'bourgeois'?

Some of the replies in this thread (and one or two others recently) are way over the top. I don't see anything in this to justify mindless abuse of anybody's country. One or two posters seem to be on the look out for any excuse... not nice.

[Oleg Maddox]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/press-ministry-requests-17m-for-1cs-patriotic-computer-game/405448.html

Software company 1C is asking the state for 500 million rubles ($16.8 million) to create a computer game simulator that will educate youth in patriotism, modernize the economy and rebuff those trying to falsify history.

The Communications and Press Ministry and 1C have jointly prepared a proposal for the creation of a series of military game simulators, a document that was prepared for a meeting of the presidential commission for modernizing the economy on April 29, a ministry official said. It wasn't presented, but the issue was discussed, he said, adding that 1C chief executive Boris Nuraliyev had demonstrated an aviation simulator to President Dmitry Medvedev.

The project's cost is 720 million rubles, according to the presentation. The Communications and Press Ministry is asking for 500 million rubles from the government, while 1C will come up with 200 million rubles and 20 million rubles will come from the Khanty-Mansiisk autonomous district, which is an initiator of the project, the official said.

The development of the core of the simulator will cost $5 million to $10 million, said Sergei Orlovsky, founder of Nival Network. Each game based on that engine will run an additional $1 million to $2 million.

The project needs state financing because it aims to stimulate high-tech production and create a product for export, while at the same time using the groundwork laid by the project to create a simulator for teaching pilots.

The goal of the project is to foster a sense of patriotism in children and shut out falsifications of history, the ministry official said. The project could be approved at the next modernization commission meeting, which will be dedicated to the development of Russian video games, said an official close to the leadership of the presidential commission.

The parameters of the project and state support are still being worked out, said an official in the presidential administration. The project is now being finalized, the ministry official said.

The project is interesting, but it is unclear whether state support is needed, presidential aide Arkady Dvorkovich said.

The project will become profitable within four years, its authors said. Sales are projected at 10 million copies, and the share of Russian games on the domestic market will grow 10 percent.

The secret to the project's success is 1C's experience in developing training simulators. The company's Il-2 Shturmovik game is one of the 25 best games ever, according to Imagine Games Network. It has been translated into 11 languages, and 1.3 million copies have been sold.

Representatives for 1C declined to comment.

A lot of incorrect info, beginneing fromn Il-2 amount of sold ;)

It is leaked info with great distoritions.

It isn't a project yet.

Government people found that Il-2 is modeling a lot of things, not just ruissian front. Just htink about it... They evaluated version 1946... if to speak about overmodelled things... Now think twice: There is no speech about SoW. Nothing.

[Oleg Maddox]

Well I hear Burnt by the Sun 2 was a huge flop in Russian cinemas recently. The public aren't too enthusiastic about anything too official in the cultural realm.



The film is incorrect in many things. In myu opinion - wrong fiolm from historical representation. Even my wife had dual opinion... about story line - like, about how other things are prepresent (read historical) - something close to the words very bad.

In Russia and (really in world at the moment) in fligth sims the WWII theme is doing just one team - it our team.
The goal is to make everything not overwritten and most possible correct.
The main principle - to do not rewrite history that we may see in some other games, books, etc. That is not only about western, but Russian modern production as well.
The main thing and my goal - gameplay should represent as more real things, as it is possible. This is about amount, technical parameters of units, etc...
Il-2 set the first such parameters in the word. Sow series shoulkd rise its bar mor higher.
I think you like Il-2 not for the nice graphics and amount of aircraft. But how it is done in priciple.

My English isn't perfect, but I hope you all understand what I mean.

[AndyJWest]

I think we can understand you well, Oleg. Thanks for the clarification.

And I for one totally agree with your approach, and your principles.

[Viking]

Thank you Oleg for clarifying, but if the money is needed I still think it’s a god idea for the government to lend a helping hand. The benefits will be mutual for enterprise and nation.

[robtek]

I wish 1c and OM all the money they need to produce the best flightsim ever!
As long as they can keep OM's principles as told before.

[baronWastelan]

I'm not Russian, but if I were I would propably take this comment as an insult. Besides, I'm 100% sure that the economy of Europe would be not like it is today without the huge amounts of energy and materials imported from Russia.

And yes, that comment (or the whole discussion about "what Russia has to offer") has nothing to do about the subject of this thread.

You are a moderator?

Some people get it, some don't. See this to get a clue:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=158088&postcount=31

[nearmiss]

Doesn't matter how well you start out in political debate it never finishes well.

:(

[KG26_Alpha]

Please delete this thread it has no place here.

[AndyJWest]

Please delete this thread it has no place here.
I see nothing wrong with the thread, as originally started. It was a response to a press report regarding 1C:Maddox. AS Oleg has now confirmed, the report was misleading, but we had a sensible enough discussion about the implications of the thread. The fact that some people used this as an excuse to indulge in idiotic trolling is no reason to delete the lot. I'd say edit out the trolls, ban them for a day or two, and let it stand. Not that I'm a moderator - or would want to be when people make postings like that.

[ramstein]

so, is everything about Russia wrong that is/was on the History channel?

also, curious... why don't other countries (other than the USA) have a history channel??
note: there is an International History channel I watch on Cable TV, and it's quite good..

[robtek]

"History - Channel" doesn't report history, "Hystory - Channel" makes history!

[nearmiss]

"History - Channel" doesn't report history, "Hystory - Channel" makes history!

I doubt anyone that watches would necessarily dispute this.

However, it is better to have information out there... than none at all.

Most of what they show and explain is pretty well done.

Afterall, for viewers to enjoy TV even history has to get dressed up abit to do enough "horse and pony show" to keep viewers interested in history.

You could probably poll most students and find that history is boring... remembering all the stupid dates and such.

The history teachers seem to always focus on the details that people forget the fastest.

[baronWastelan]

so, is everything about Russia wrong that is/was on the History channel?

also, curious... why don't other countries (other than the USA) have a history channel??
note: there is an International History channel I watch on Cable TV, and it's quite good..

In Europe, England, Middle East, if you do any traveling you're looking at a life-size 3D history channel. ;)

[bf-110]

Well,History Channel is quite good for propaganda,but Hollywood still the best for this purpouse.
They can make the biggest historical fiasco to turn into a glorious and unique event.

[TheGrunch]

so, is everything about Russia wrong that is/was on the History channel?

also, curious... why don't other countries (other than the USA) have a history channel??
note: there is an International History channel I watch on Cable TV, and it's quite good..
They do, they're just not as notorious for rewriting history to favour their home countries. There's Yesterday, UKTV History and several more in the UK. There's quite a lot of history programmes on other British TV channels already. Don't know whether it's the same in the US.

[baronWastelan]

Sports has always been the best way to promote patriotism.

http://cdn.picapp.com/ftp/Images/6/0/c/7/Olympic_News_d5ab.jpg

http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Lenin_Basketball_350.jpg

or maybe not...

[KG26_Alpha]

Please delete this thread it has no place here.



I see nothing wrong with the thread, as originally started. It was a response to a press report regarding 1C:Maddox. AS Oleg has now confirmed, the report was misleading, but we had a sensible enough discussion about the implications of the thread. The fact that some people used this as an excuse to indulge in idiotic trolling is no reason to delete the lot. I'd say edit out the trolls, ban them for a day or two, and let it stand. Not that I'm a moderator - or would want to be when people make postings like that.


Its off topic and is a pointless diatribe.

IMHO

[ramstein]

those that say the history channel rewrote history.. or Russian hsitory, could you please be specific.. what did they lie about or rewrite.. I have always wanted to know what they lied about, and so far those that claim they lie, have not given an answer on what it is they rewrote history about..

this is the no spin spin zone..
no propaganda,,, spill the beans on what was not true..

This should be interesting if there is a game about history that corrects any lies..

thanx..

[Novotny]

You must understand, the History channel is not exactly written by or for the educated.

To wit:

"Why does the History Channel have such an inclination to lying or exaggerating and being subjective?
Every time I see something on the History Channel, it contradicts completely what other sources say.

Like for instance, at the battle of Iwo Jima, the History Channel says that the Americans suffered 8000 casualties whilst the Japanese suffered more than 300,000 casualties. Yet on wikipedia, it says that the Americans suffered 27,909 casualties while the Japanese actually suffered 22,786 casualties - which was nearly the entire Japanese garrison of the island: they therefore actually suffered less casualties than the Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Iwo_Jima

Or the Battle of Gaugamela were the History Channel says that there was 250,000 Persians fighting, contradicting Discovery Civilization Channel which says there were 60,000 Persians.

I can cite hundreds of examples, but I'm am afraid you'd stop reading. So why is the History Channel like this?

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

This is a really funny question. I love the responses. First, let me say that I am a Grad Student of Medieval history. I have been studying College level history for the last 6 years and I am hoping to get a Ph.D. in Medieval history in the next 2-3 years.

The History Channel is GARBAGE. Here is the truth: historians dedicate their lives to a specific field of research, and debate evidence they have found. All history is debate and agreement between two historians can be very difficult to find.

For documenteries from PBS or the History Channel, it is impossible to for them to present all sides of any historical issues. There are simply are too many scholars with too many ideas about how the past happened. Go to a larger university library and look up the crusades. You should find over a thousand book on the subject, all of which specialise in different issues, arguing different points and forging different conclusions. How could you condense all these books with all their disagreements into one hour long documentary? YOU CAN'T.

Now, the History Channel is worse than most because they try to be entertaining to a specific demographic of Americans. That are looking at the older, conservative, non-academically trained, "history buff." Somebody who casualy reads about World War II, but lacks the ability to read foreign languages and lacks access to a scholarly library. Hence, the History Channel's programming is a very popular version of history which often oversimplifies complex events; it generally covers American topics from an American point of view, and even throws in some programming about monster machines, Ice Road Truckers and programming about what would happen if humans suddenly disappeared - all of which have nothing to do with history.

The bottom line is that the History Channel wants to entertain the every-day Joe and give him a sense of knowledge so they can make money. Nobody will watch a program about how Ancient Greek colonists interacted with the native people of ancient Sicily. Most people find the push by archaeologists to find the marble quarries used to build the Parthanon in Athens interesting, but that's history. But you can go to a university and listen to talks on these subjects.

As a grad student in Medieval history, I ALWAY begin my research with Wikipedia which every history professor in the country would approve of. It gives you a broad overview of almost any subject, a list of major players which one should research, and usually a bibliography which states some of the most accepted sources on the subject. It is a wonderful starting point: it isn't always "accurate" but then again, history is debate. It usually gives you a simple explanation of all sides of the debate.

I just love how academic historians and popular historians disagree."

(Novotny here. I have sub-edited the above to remove grammatical errors and improve the readability, without changing the basic discourse. original link: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090814102816AAKYEvo)

Basically, if you want to understand history, go to a university. If you want to be entertained, watch TV.

[Hoverbug]

You must understand, the History channel is not exactly written by or for the educated.

To wit:

"Why does the History Channel have such an inclination to lying or exaggerating and being subjective?
Every time I see something on the History Channel, it contradicts completely what other sources say.

Like for instance, at the battle of Iwo Jima, the History Channel says that the Americans suffered 8000 casualties whilst the Japanese suffered more than 300,000 casualties. Yet on wikipedia, it says that the Americans suffered 27,909 casualties while the Japanese actually suffered 22,786 casualties - which was nearly the entire Japanese garrison of the island: they therefore actually suffered less casualties than the Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Iwo_Jima

Or the Battle of Gaugamela were the History Channel says that there was 250,000 Persians fighting, contradicting Discovery Civilization Channel which says there were 60,000 Persians.

I can cite hundreds of examples, but I'm am afraid you'd stop reading. So why is the History Channel like this?

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

This is a really funny question. I love the responses. First, let me say that I am a Grad Student of Medieval history. I have been studying College level history for the last 6 years and I am hoping to get a Ph.D. in Medieval history in the next 2-3 years.

The History Channel is GARBAGE. Here is the truth: historians dedicate their lives to a specific field of research, and debate evidence they have found. All history is debate and agreement between two historians can be very difficult to find.

For documenteries from PBS or the History Channel, it is impossible to for them to present all sides of any historical issues. There are simply are too many scholars with too many ideas about how the past happened. Go to a larger university library and look up the crusades. You should find over a thousand book on the subject, all of which specialise in different issues, arguing different points and forging different conclusions. How could you condense all these books with all their disagreements into one hour long documentary? YOU CAN'T.

Now, the History Channel is worse than most because they try to be entertaining to a specific demographic of Americans. That are looking at the older, conservative, non-academically trained, "history buff." Somebody who casualy reads about World War II, but lacks the ability to read foreign languages and lacks access to a scholarly library. Hence, the History Channel's programming is a very popular version of history which often oversimplifies complex events; it generally covers American topics from an American point of view, and even throws in some programming about monster machines, Ice Road Truckers and programming about what would happen if humans suddenly disappeared - all of which have nothing to do with history.

The bottom line is that the History Channel wants to entertain the every-day Joe and give him a sense of knowledge so they can make money. Nobody will watch a program about how Ancient Greek colonists interacted with the native people of ancient Sicily. Most people find the push by archaeologists to find the marble quarries used to build the Parthanon in Athens interesting, but that's history. But you can go to a university and listen to talks on these subjects.

As a grad student in Medieval history, I ALWAY begin my research with Wikipedia which every history professor in the country would approve of. It gives you a broad overview of almost any subject, a list of major players which one should research, and usually a bibliography which states some of the most accepted sources on the subject. It is a wonderful starting point: it isn't always "accurate" but then again, history is debate. It usually gives you a simple explanation of all sides of the debate.

I just love how academic historians and popular historians disagree."

(Novotny here. I have sub-edited the above to remove grammatical errors and improve the readability, without changing the basic discourse. original link: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090814102816AAKYEvo)

Basically, if you want to understand history, go to a university. If you want to be entertained, watch TV.

It's probably not worth taking this even further off topic, but I have been interviewed for two different History Channel productions (Deep Sea Detectives and Man-MomentMachine) and I can attest to how appallingly poor the production process is. I was brought in as an expert, but when I refused to go along with their tidy, but fictitious, narrative, they went hunting for somebody else who would support it. The way History Channel buys content is purely low bid. Good research has a cost and they are not willing to pay it.

[Oktoberfest]

If you watch History Channel, you end up believing that lone P-51s, P-47s or P-38s were able to destroy German and/or Japanese fighters 10 at a time EVERY sortie they made every day of the war.

However, most real history books shows that the war didn't end two weeks after the USA entered into the conflict.

Since I've seen the depiction of WW2 aerial warfare in "Dogfights", I think History channel just lacks enough money to put their "documentaries" in movie theatres because the effects are too cheap.

However, the lack of accuracy, cheap scenario and patriotic messages are worth any Jerry Bruckheimer production.

And this is just for very recent, well documented and easily accessible History.

Now imagine what they are saying about pre-History or antic History.

[nearmiss]

Novotny

You are correct about the history channel as far as accuracy is concerned.

The history channels = entertainment

That said I think one important issue is the fact that people are still getting alot of information, even if the i's and t's aren't getting dotted and crossed. As a student we were forced into the quagmire of detail, which is not memorable. I favor history any way it can be explained and people are interested to listen.

Ignorance of history is a detriment to organized societies. History must be a part of counsel for societies or they will repeat mistakes of the past. The study of history is invaluable.

I had a great history teacher in university, because he dramatically told the stories and recounted the events. His classes were always maxed out, and he nurtured in all his students a desire to know more. Then of course he had to test us by departmental tests. Tests that were the same old precise dates and detailed stuff we would all forget before the semester ended.

I favor the history channel, even for religious history. Religious history always shows always promote the 'create doubt" of creation theory. IMO, people who have half a brain can interpret the data and make their own minds are not influenced.

The series on Battlefield 360 on the Enterprise is very well done from an entertainment and historical standpoint. The major points most people will remember were very well covered. I've heard friends discuss various episodes and I was pretty amazed at how interested they were, and how ignorant they were of WW2 in the Pacific.

When I started IL2 I knew absolutely ZIP, NADA about the Soviet Air war. I've since read dozens of books and developed a real respect for the Soviets. A respect that I had not learned from all the negative banter of a lifetime I'd heard about Russia.

So, I think it's fair to say that no matter how history is taught I'm in agreement... unless it's propagandized to promote someone's agenda.

[Novotny]

Very good points, nearmiss.

[Viking]

When I found the article in The Moscow Times I thought it was a god idea to post it here as it mentioned the Il-2 simulation in positive terms. The part of” The goal of the project is to foster a sense of patriotism in children and shut out falsifications of history” I wrote of as slightly paranoid.

Now I’m 100% convinced that the posting was correct, not to say highly necessary, as some, most, of the posts here is a shocking proof of what is, and for a long time have been, going on in the world when it comes to biased “education” and twisting of historical facts.

Il-2 opened many eyes to the cold war veiled events that took place in the east during WW2. And I’m sure that the SoW will keep that fine legacy.

Mind you! I’m not ignorant of, or trying to cover up, the multitude of atrocities carried out by Russians and their leaders before, during, and after the war.
The truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth! That is what history is about.

Then and only then will we learn from it.

Keep posting and keep it civil.

[LukeFF]

Keep posting and keep it civil.

Keep that in mind before posting garbage like this again:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=157111&postcount=2

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=157124&postcount=4

[AndyJWest]

Now I’m 100% convinced that the posting was correct, not to say highly necessary, as some, most, of the posts here is a shocking proof of what is, and for a long time have been, going on in the world when it comes to biased “education” and twisting of historical facts.
Really, Viking?
Let's look at one 'fact' - what Oleg Maddox had to say about the posting:
A lot of incorrect info, beginneing fromn Il-2 amount of sold

It is leaked info with great distoritions.

It isn't a project yet.

Government people found that Il-2 is modeling a lot of things, not just ruissian front. Just htink about it... They evaluated version 1946... if to speak about overmodelled things... Now think twice: There is no speech about SoW. Nothing.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=158154&postcount=36
Yes, everyone puts a spin on history. The way to counter this is with research, not conspiracy theories and vague accusations based on dubious press reports.

[Viking]

Keep that in mind before posting garbage like this again:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=157111&postcount=2

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=157124&postcount=4

That my dear, was an off topic (Il-2) posting and I threaded it, and you “guys”, as such!

[Viking]

Really, Viking?
Let's look at one 'fact' - what Oleg Maddox had to say about the posting:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=158154&postcount=36
Yes, everyone puts a spin on history. The way to counter this is with research, not conspiracy theories and vague accusations based on dubious press reports.

And the conspirator theories and vague accusations are exactly what?

Please explain!

[AndyJWest]

That my dear, was an off topic (Il-2) posting and I threaded it, and you “guys”, as such!
Regardless of whether it was 'off-topic' or not, it certainly wasn't 'civil'. And come to that, debating the falsification of history isn't exactly on topic either.

[AndyJWest]

And the conspirator theories and vague accusations are exactly what?

Please explain!

You wrote:
...some, most, of the posts here is a shocking proof of what is, and for a long time have been, going on in the world when it comes to biased “education” and twisting of historical facts.
That is a specific statement about postings on this forum. Without evidence, it reads to me as a vague accusation about a supposed conspiracy.

[Viking]

“The goal of the project is to foster a sense of patriotism in children and shut out falsifications of history, the ministry official said……

The secret to the project's success is 1C's experience in developing training simulators. The company's Il-2 Shturmovik game is one of the 25 best games ever, according to Imagine Games Network. It has been translated into 11 languages, and 1.3 million copies have been sold.”

That, my dear, is what makes it a true IL-2 topic! Well at least in my world but I’m no moderator

My posts in that off-topic thread weren’t meant to be civil but rather to be honest.
Keep it civil guys!

[ramstein]

If you watch History Channel, you end up believing that lone P-51s, P-47s or P-38s were able to destroy German and/or Japanese fighters 10 at a time EVERY sortie they made every day of the war.

However, most real history books shows that the war didn't end two weeks after the USA entered into the conflict.

Since I've seen the depiction of WW2 aerial warfare in "Dogfights", I think History channel just lacks enough money to put their "documentaries" in movie theatres because the effects are too cheap.

However, the lack of accuracy, cheap scenario and patriotic messages are worth any Jerry Bruckheimer production.

And this is just for very recent, well documented and easily accessible History.

Now imagine what they are saying about pre-History or antic History.

this is a good example where proof would help..

ok,
which fights/battles were misrepresnted.. as posted, so far it is opinion.. I need specifics..

I always saw them as giving credit when credit was due.. if we got our ass kicked, they showed us getitng our ass kicked..
if we were winning, they showed us winning..

btw, I speak to wwii vets often, in person for hours on end.. and not one of them had a complaint about the History channel

[Viking]

You wrote:

That is a specific statement about postings on this forum. Without evidence, it reads to me as a vague accusation about a supposed conspiracy.

Yes! It was called the cold war and it cast a dark shadow over Europe and Russia that we are now trying to illuminate.

[AndyJWest]

I'd say the cold war cast a dark shadow over the whole world, but that is beside the point. You made a specific statement about postings on this forum. Are you going to back this up with evidence of this 'shocking proof'?

And since Oleg Maddox has told us the press release was incorrect, why do you keep referring to it as proof of anything?

[nearmiss]

This thread is about to be shut down. Address the topic or find something else to occupy your time.

[Viking]

To recap what we know so far:

1C simulators/games, and Oleg’s Il-2, have received Presidential recognition in Russia.

There have been request from 1C to the Russian state to economically support the further development of computer simulations of historical events such as WW2 in the former USSR.
One of the arguments has been to repel the falsification of historical facts.

This is what we know!

Some Q: s and A: s has already sprung up because of this but here we recap some and bring a few new into the discussion.

Q: Is computer simulations a god educational tool to bring knowledge to the users?
A: From what we have learned and experienced from IL-2 the answer is yes. Few western’s, and easterners, know of the true extension of the war in the east before the release of Il-2.

Q: Is there a need and necessity of historical education about this time in history?
A: Very much so as it was secluded and deliberately fogged out by the forces behind the cold war, unnecessary alienating nation from nation and friend from friend.

Q: Are there any more positive or negative effects of the computer simulations mentioned here.
A: Yes! The nation that develops and supports computer programs, Russia in this case, will in the long run benefit in a multiple ways from spinoff effects from this development. The competition will off course cry!

By the way Nearmiss, I would very much want to know your location as I think it will explain a lot to me.But I hope that I am for once is wrong.