Fast bombers

[IceFire]

So I was doing some mud moving last weekend online and I got to thinking about the A-20. It's a really fast light/medium bomber with that fantastic array of guns. A fairly useful weapon in many online situations and reasonably survivable too.

So I'm wondering... it's a fast bomber... did the Germans develop anything that matched this level of performance? The Ju-88 was supposed to be a fast bomber but it's definitely not at the same level. Maybe one of the Dornier bombers... but still no low level strafing/attack capability (unless I don't know about one of the variations).

Thoughts?

[Foo'bar]

So I'm wondering... it's a fast bomber... did the Germans develop anything that matched this level of performance?

Of course: Arado Ar 234

[Erkki]

There were many versions of the ju 88... S1 models top speed(at best altitude) was somewhere around 550kmph. ;) Fastest fighter version, G, had 550kmph too at 8500m but it was a night fighter. S2 and S3 were the two fastest but they werent build in numbers.

[LukeFF]

The Ju 88 C-6 was probably the closest thing to the A-20. Many were sent to the Eastern Front as "train-busters."

[Zorin]

First of all, the forward firing armament on the A-20C was seldom used and often removed in the ETO, as it was the major goal to get in fast and out even faster. No sane bomber pilot would have stayed around to strafe targets with weak 0.303...

The next thing is the top speed. In real world action, the A-20 never flew maxed out all the time. Its cruising speed was good, but not outstanding nor setting it apart from its German rivals. So both the Ju88 and especially the Do217E/M versions could do the same job at comparable or better speeds and had the ability to carry nearly twice the load, plus were capable of precision dive bombing.

In Il-2, attacking point targets on short range missions, the Bf 110 or Me210/410 are more viable options even. Better forward armament, 1,200kg(2,400lb) of bombs and the ability to actually fight their way out.

[Romanator21]

Stuka! :)

[Blackdog_kt]

The next thing is the top speed. In real world action, the A-20 never flew maxed out all the time.

Bingo. That's exactly where a lot of the inaccuracies in mission profiles come from in flight sims. Some of it is due to our ability to refly, some is due to the reduced distances compared to real life and there is no real way to sidestep these two, or at least no way to balance time constraints for flying the sim with real life. I mean, very few if any people would fly a 6 hour bombing raid in real time, unless we could somehow schedule AI flights that we could later take control of as they near the target and exit afterwards.

However, unrealistic engine limits are something that can be corrected and i'm glad Oleg and team are taking a look at it in SoW.

In IL2 everything flies pretty much maxed out all the time. In reality, maximum continuous power is considerably or much lower even for fighter types, for example the 190s are rated for 1.2 ata or thereabouts and the Spits for +8lbs of boost. Contrast this with how we fly in IL2, 190s on WEP and exceeding the 2700RPM limit and Spits at +12 boost or so, all the time.

This skews gameplay when compared to real life performance and also creates unrealistic expectations, practices and tactics. A real aircraft flying like we do would be left with its engines seized, burning or at the very least having blown off a couple of cylinder heads due to the extreme pressures and temperatures after 5 minutes or less. It sure is going to be a fun time in SoW, when people left and right start crying that their favorite ride can't attain its documented maximum speed and keep it indefinitely :D

It would be interesting to see what kind of speed difference one gets when running an A20 at rated power as opposed to full power. I would do it but i don't have any of the testing autopilot utilities, but i can supply some numbers for anyone interested.

After a quick google search, what comes up from the reprinted USAAF manuals is this:

Max. take off power: 45" manifold pressure, 2400 RPM (5 mins only)
Max. continuous climb power: 36" MP, 2300 RPM
Cruise: 28"-30.9" MP, 1900 RPM

That's a full 14" of MP and 500 RPM between flat out full power and maximum cruise :shock:

EDIT: Forgot the link, here it goes
http://books.google.gr/books?id=Cf7nBM_4TtAC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=douglas+A20+rated+power+manifold+pressure&source=bl&ots=qLKZBt0Yd9&sig=1Xr5BpbbWP_Rd8hkSfFanKPP7Lc&hl=el&ei=bB7QS6HKKYGiOM6TnY8P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[BadAim]

I'll hop on the 110 bandwagon, as she's hard to beat for ground attack.

[IceFire]

Good point about the Bf110. I guess that is sort of in a similar range as well... heavy forward armament (like the A-20G) and decent bomb loadouts.

If we did get a Me 210 or a Me 410 officially flyable would it have greater bomb loadouts than the 110?

[Zorin]

Good point about the Bf110. I guess that is sort of in a similar range as well... heavy forward armament (like the A-20G) and decent bomb loadouts.

If we did get a Me 210 or a Me 410 officially flyable would it have greater bomb loadouts than the 110?

No, it would not. The loadouts were pretty much the same with regards to bombs.

[zakkandrachoff]

177 heavy bomber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

Powerplant: 2× Daimler-Benz DB 610 24-cylinder
565 km/h

http://www.aviationartstore.com/images/He-177_KG40_1944.jpg

or

Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Me_262_B1-A_4.jpg

[AndyJWest]

So, IceFire starts a thread by talking about "a really fast light/medium bomber with that fantastic array of guns", and zakkandrachoff thinks a He-177 is relevant... :rolleyes:

[robtek]

well, if one looks at a 177 in flight one might see a light, twin engined bomber, its real size might appear too late and the decent defensive armament will do the rest. :-D

If it weren't one of the earlier models (pre -R5), which had the tendency to get alight without enemy influence.

[koivis]

As mentioned, they made the Ju 88S:

S-1 (with BMW 801G + GM1), top speed of 610 kph @ 8000 m
S-3 (with Jumo 213A + GM1), top speed of 615 kph @ 8500 m

Also:

Do 217M (with DM 603A), top speed 560 kph @ 6000 m

No forward-firing armament for these however, but there were of course the Me 210 and 410...

I'd say that Ju 88A or C (with Jumo 211s) were not "fast bombers" anymore after 1940-41, as they weren't that fast even then.

[IceFire]

Which of the Do-217s are we getting? Would it be faster than the other German bombers in the stable? I know it's AI but maybe we'll see a fully flyable one later on?

[CKY_86]

Were getting the K1 and K2 varients that were powered by the BMW 801 G-2. Speed: 333 mph (533 km/h).

Taken from here: http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Dornier%20Do%20217.htm